I don't need to invent an explanation for the manga. One wasn't given to us by the manga; there is no point in speculating about the exact mechanics behind how it works because at the end of the day that would just be head canon.
Spirit Control = Ki Control
The OP is making the claim that damage could only be transferred to original body if Granolah's soul was directly attacked. I'm not seeing any explicit evidence for that specifically. A clone formed from Ki being damaged does not mean the user's soul is what is being damaged.
Damage, this isn't productive at all. He just explained to you in universe shit, and is giving you a very clear explanation for what's happening. And you don't even try to counter it at all. This is a blatant dismissal of evidence. You don't like it because you can't believe it, that is called incredulity. You agreed that our interpretation is, "theoretically valid", yet you can't come up with a reason on why it's invalid. You can't just try to force some kind of contradiction to our claim based on literally nothing. You need to adequately counter our claims and evidence with evidence of your own. Or your interpretation isn't as valid as ours.
I'm sorry damage, you can have your own beliefs, but this is a debate. If you fail to counter my arguments, that is a concession.
If we go by this, half the stuff on the wiki would need to be removed because a lot of it is just people like us extrapolating stuff that wasn't clearly explained using the given information. You can certainly debate the quality of the information/evidence that's available, but to criticize this methodology itself in this very specific case does come off as bad faith.
Well that's not really an argument Damage, you cannot withhold judgement like that. This is one of those threads where neutrality almost doesn't make sense because it leaves a crucial part of the verse almost untouched/unexplained. All this would do is delay the inevitable (that is, at least one explanation will need to be accepted sooner or later).
What are you expecting exactly? It sounds like you're asking me to prove a negative by proving that Soul Manipulation didn't occur in these scenes.
What? I'm not asking you to prove a negative, I'm asking you to counter my claims with evidence of your own. You don't believe in it right? Well you need to substantiate that. If not, that is a concession.
I think what he means is that you need to debate/defend this part exactly and convince us why you think so just as we've tried to convince you.
You're making the claim that the evidence provided (along with everything else in the thread) is not enough to convince you, and we're asking why as well as what possible alternatives you might have. This isn't asking you to prove a negative it's just one of the most common ways for a debate to progress.
It's shown as a special technique, and would stay as a special application unless it's shown otherwise, no?
Hakai, a special application. It can erase soul would mean just regular ki attacks do the same thing? "Just not as potent and doesn't erase is the difference". This doesn't show or even imply that regular ki can do it because Hakai does it.
This itself is a special case that lacks depth and explanation in the series as they never explained it well.
"Spirit" is what that kind call Ki. How does healing being a ki technique lines up with it? It's fully related to life force after all. Not just soul.
Isn't this just an assumption with no statement etc?
Same as before. Vegeta's case isn't an example. Nothing implies "If you die by a ki attack or similar, you're gone forever" but says that "if you die, you're gone". Doesn't mean he'll be fine if he's killed by being stabbed by a sword etc.
Seperating the souls, yes. But not sure if it's damaging it like that. While it's not stated that Vegeta being able to interact with it is based on Spirit Fission, same applies for otherwise. We don't see it happening without it, so i don't see a reason to assume it being otherwise
Not sure if this is staying within "our rules".
If this is a joke, I'm not laughing
The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim here; you're saying that Gas hitting Granolah's clones means that he is hitting Granolah's soul. Your evidence for this is seemingly:
I'm sorry as i don't know the rules about being rude. Rather than checking them to see how rude i can be
Damage, the burden of proof is on YOU. It would only be asking you to prove a negative if I told you to PROVE why these things are NOT happening, without giving evidence of why it is happening. So no, you need to come forth with evidence to prove me wrong. Which you have not done.
Well, I don't agree with that but we'll have to agree to disagree and let other staff members give their input.
You're being beyond unhelpful in this thread right now, so please stop and let us focus on the actual debate. I have no interest in entertaining this.
No, that can't be what happens here, because you are inadvertently admitting you don't have evidence to counter me. Leaving the conversation and waiting for other staff to back up your baseless claims is bad faith.
It's not bad faith to get more people in to evaluate the thread...
No, its bad faith to just sit back and wait for staff to agree with you. Furthermore, agreeing with you based on literally nothing. Either you concede and admit your argument has no logical or narrative backing, or you need to bring evidence. How can your argument be logically sound without any of this?
Let's say this is true for a moment, you still do have a responsibility, as someone who disagrees with this/doesn't not find the evidence convincing enough, to at least partially debunk some of it and explain why you think your rebuttal makes more sense. You still haven't done that, this is why your disagreement is being put into question here. It's still far better than just saying "Disagree FRA" and never showing up again (lol) but still, you should at least let us know why, that's all we're asking and I don't think that's an unreasonable demand.
I don't want staff to just agree with me. I want them to vote based on their own analysis of it.
Okay, I will see if I can rephrase my explanation better tomorrow. I just think that this approach of "if you don't have any hard evidence then you can't disagree with this interpretation, you have to accept it" is coming off a bit wrong.
Sure, but that's not what we're asking of you. You can disagree and walk away, I even made a joke about it because it happened in this very thread early on. But I mean come on, this is a debate, we're here to debate. Just because you can walk away via technicalities doesn't mean you should, just my opinion personally.
Fair, and if this was your reasoning I'd ask for some further explanation/logic along with scans to support the claim, all the work that we evidently did put into our version of the explanation.
Sure, but this seems like a false equivalence here purely because we constructed an entire argument detailing how Ki = Spirit/Soul, in fact the previous thread that got accepted formed the basis for this very argument. You do see how they're not remotely the same thing right? If this logic was sound, your character would still get Mind Manipulation resistance (as Soul Damage resistance for instance is something Griffin agreed to instantly and I hope you see why because of how simple it is), but obviously the character won't get it. Your analogy doesn't hold simply because they're not even remotely equivalent, the soul damage/mind manip resistance being just one BIG reason out of the several I listed above.
That would be the best piece of evidence against such, yes. Luckily though we know that'd be disingenuous so we're not asking for that, we asked for alternative explanations and scans that support said alternative explanation. It's not the same as saying "find me the scan that says exactly what I want it to say or concede right now!!!!" and I trust that you see this.
I don't exactly see the assumptions part when we spent an entire previous thread, and a good portion of this thread itself, detailing how Ki = Spirit/Soul. We hammered down that part precisely because we didn't want there to be any assumptions. Are there alternative explanations for this? Maybe, and we tried to find them when we went over potential counterarguments, didn't find any, so here we are. At least, if you find the conclusion plausible then you must acknowledge that there may not be any alternatives (unless you can find it), and beyond that just leave it some other staff to evaluate further since I cannot and will not force you to concede.
Very well, i won't disagree with the thread further. I think part of the issue of that i don't fundamentally agree with all the aspects of the Ki = Soul debate, but this thread isn't the place to revive that topic so it wouldn't be right to continue on with debating this when the OP's argument hinges on it. If we don't see eye to eye on the fundamentals then we can't see things the same way for the scans. I'll leave it be.I don't exactly see the assumptions part when we spent an entire previous thread, and a good
Dragon Ball: Soul Manipulation Reboot.
portion of this thread itself, detailing how Ki = Spirit/Soul. We hammered down that part precisely because we didn't want there to be any assumptions. Are there alternative explanations for this? Maybe, and we tried to find them when we went over potential counterarguments, didn't find any, so here we are. At least, if you find the conclusion plausible then you must acknowledge that there may not be any alternatives (unless you can find it), and beyond that just leave it some other staff to evaluate further since I cannot and will not force you to concede.
Dragon Ball: Soul Manipulation Reboot.
Hello all, this CRT will be going over the souls in dragon ball. This is an overhaul from the last thread, which was missing information. This is a thread aiming to fix that and cause as least confusion as possible. Nature of Souls First off, it should be established that ki embodies both the...vsbattles.com
Can we please get your updated evaluations when possible? You mainly just need to read the exchanges between me and griffin. Not sure if you guys have been keeping up with the thread or not.
Essentially:
That was already passed in the previous thread.
Please explain your stance in further detail. Are you agreeing that Gas attacking Granolah is an example of Soul Damage? More broadly, what are your thoughts on Soul Damage as a whole? What would qualify and what would not and why?
I think anything which is stated or shown to directly damage the soul (like Hakai) or a spirit is fine.
This is the basic outline of the Gas + Granolah clone argument. For context Spirit Control is accepted as the same as Ki Control and it was accepted that Ki, Spirit and Soul are synonymous. So Ki is inherently Soul Manipulation of the user's own soul. Cloning is explained as splitting your spirit, which would mean splitting your soul.
"Spirit" = Soul and Life energy.
We already settled this in the first CRT. Please refer to that if you have questions on the matter.
A new CRT would be required to overturn the previous CRT.
Thank you very much. The clone stuff is very convincing, actually, so I think I'll agree based on that.
Huh? Wasn't it what was accepted? It was what Vegeta stated (releasing the "spirits", in other words, soul and life energy). Vegeta didn't tell they were the same but stated both of them together are "Spirit" (what that kind calls it).
