Dragon Ball: Soul Manipulation Part 2

[TiltedFN]

My general thoughts are this:

A UES being utilized in a particular technique to harm the soul does not imply that every single technique formed from that UES harms the soul, only that the UES is capable of it.

So, on that basis, I disagree with the premise of the OP.

You skipped over every single reasoning I put out, and didn't even address any of the justifications. I feel like for us to have a debate about this, everything needs to be acknowledged. How can you disagree with something based off of this when its more nuanced than that? I've already put examples of ki damaging the soul. And we've made it pretty clear on the god ki point at the very least, that you have zero evidence in proving that ki is being changed fundamentally, and not it being an extension of what ki itself already does. My interpretation of ki itself targeting the soul has much more evidence than yours.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Bruh those two staffs (Maverick and KingTempest) fr ignoring counter arguments in this thread. Only to come back to like a comment that address to zero of the counter arguments

 

[MeiouHades]

My general thoughts are this:

A UES being utilized in a particular technique to harm the soul does not imply that every single technique formed from that UES harms the soul, only that the UES is capable of it.

So, on that basis, I disagree with the premise of the OP.

Sure, I agree with those general thoughts. Most of us do anyway. We however are claiming that Ki should qualify for a few of the properties that its derivative techniques possess and we're offering evidence to support that claim. That has nothing to do with generalized, site-wide rules. Of course by default, a UES shouldn't have that, I don't think anyone would debate that.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Will probably comment on this tonight, if not then, tomorrow I'll respond to the full OP when able since it seems like it's gonna be one of those threads.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Will probably comment on this tonight, if not then, tomorrow I'll respond to the full OP when able since it seems like it's gonna be one of those threads.

the endless topics that last a month? probably

 

[FinePoint]

Sure, I agree with those general thoughts. Most of us do anyway. We however are claiming that Ki should qualify for a few of the properties that its derivative techniques possess and we're offering evidence to support that claim. That has nothing to do with generalized, site-wide rules. Of course by default, a UES shouldn't have that, I don't think anyone would debate that.

Well how is this fundamentally different?

 

[TiltedFN]

Well how is this fundamentally different?

The difference, is that we are not arguing for basic ki to have every soul ability that some of these techniques possess. We are only arguing for some of them, like soul damage. Your assessment would be correct if we said something like, "oh hakai has it so all basic ki should have it because ues" or something among those lines, and if we said that without evidence to support the claim. But the difference, is that we provided extensive proof of ki harboring those properties. You simply cannot compare the two. That would be a false equivalence. Furthermore, we have outlined that any other interpretation simply has no proof backing it up, when ours however does, well in terms of the arguments made so far.

 

[Robo432343]

snip

bro. I agree with you that ki attacks can damage the soul but you're saying that basic ki attacks can damage the soul every single time a ki attack happens. (correct me if im wrong). That part is contradicted by the fact that souls appear intact even after ki based deaths and if we assumed their soul was damaged by every ki attack literally fighting in the afterlife would be impossible

 

[TiltedFN]

bro. I agree with you that ki attacks can damage the soul but you're saying that basic ki attacks can damage the soul every single time a ki attack happens. (correct me if im wrong). That part is contradicted by the fact that souls appear intact even after ki based deaths and if we assumed their soul was damaged by every ki attack literally fighting in the afterlife would be impossible

I already explained to you how this line of thinking doesn't make a lick of sense. Souls appear intact in the otherworld on arrival because they are restored. And then they sit in line waiting to be judged and cleansed. Why would fighting in the afterlife be impossible? Raditz fought yemma as a soul and his soul healed, like I pointed out to you.

 

[Robo432343]

I already explained to you how this line of thinking doesn't make a lick of sense. Souls appear intact in the otherworld on arrival because they are restored. And then they sit in line waiting to be judged and cleansed. Why would fighting in the afterlife be impossible? Raditz fought yemma as a soul and his soul healed, like I pointed out to you.

Are you referring to this scan?

Because Yemma literally says he kept Vegeta’s spirit intact. If soul damage is a standard normal thing for basic ki based attacks, then keeping a soul intact wouldn't be such a notable thing??Yemma very clearly points out that spirits are supposed to arrive intact unless some hakai fuckery happens to you. But in this case the soul was fully functional without needing to be repaired. If basic ki attacks damage the soul then Yemma would have needed to repair it not keep it intact which proves souls can remain whole after ki attack...It was never damaged in the first place

 

[TiltedFN]

Are you referring to this scan?

Because Yemma literally says he kept Vegeta’s spirit intact. If soul damage is a standard normal thing for basic ki based attacks, then keeping a soul intact wouldn't be such a notable thing??Yemma very clearly points out that spirits are supposed to arrive intact unless some hakai fuckery happens to you. But in this case the soul was fully functional without needed to be repaired. If basic ki attacks damage the soul then Yemma would have needed to repair it not keep it intact which proves souls can remain whole after ki attack...It was never damaged in the first place

Bro used the wrong scan, can you tell me where raditz is in this panel? Its like you don't even read the shit i type. And its honestly getting quite frustrating. Typing out all of this just for nobody to read it. And yemma here keeping vegeta's spirit intact means he personally kept it from reincarnating because he might've needed him. Which he did.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Are you referring to this scan?

Because Yemma literally says he kept Vegeta’s spirit intact. If soul damage is a standard normal thing for basic ki based attacks, then keeping a soul intact wouldn't be such a notable thing??Yemma very clearly points out that spirits are supposed to arrive intact unless some hakai fuckery happens to you. But in this case the soul was fully functional without needed to be repaired. If basic ki attacks damage the soul then Yemma would have needed to repair it not keep it intact which proves souls can remain whole after ki attack...It was never damaged in the first place

Any chance we can get the original instead of a translation? Could clear things up

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Bro used the wrong scan, can you tell me where raditz is in this panel? Its like you don't even read the shit i type. And its honestly getting quite frustrating. Typing out all of this just for nobody to read it. And yemma here keeping vegeta's spirit intact means he personally kept it from reincarnating because he might've needed him. Which he did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't this Vegeta's Second Time Dying?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Any chance we can get the original instead of a translation? Could clear things up

There’s no point, intact in this context literally just refers to not being cleansed and not reincarnated. Souls don’t get destroyed in the afterlife; they get cleansed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't this Vegeta's Second Time Dying?

No, when you die a second time your soul gets destroyed to the point where you don’t head to the afterlife. Tilted uses this as an argument in the OP.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Soul damage
This will be going over how ki based attacks, and even physical hits from characters which use ki to amp their attacks, do actually directly damage the soul. The first example of this is the Hakai technique. Now first, we have to ask what Hakai actually does. Well its core function is completely destroying the target, erasing it from existence, turning something into nothing. This includes the body and soul. Hakai can be applied in multiple different ways, like using the power of destruction, or the technique itself. The destruction technique itself can be used by beings who do not possess god ki or the power of destruction. Gas and Granolah are prime examples of this fact, displaying use of Hakai while just having regular ki. In vegeta’s case, he can also use the destruction technique without transforming into any god forms or ultra ego, which is distinct from regular god ki, as stated by goku, similar to angel ki. But when Vegeta uses energy of destruction, he has to be in ultra ego to do it demonstrably. Now, we only need to focus on energy of destruction, it being used to apply the effects of Hakai into projectiles, like ki balls. Now first off, what IS energy of destruction exactly? Well at its core fundamental level, it's literally just ki, energy, but obviously more refined, like god ki in general. This ki can be attained by doing special training like vegeta did, or through the use of the ritual. Hakai when being interacted with physically in any way, will always aim to completely destroy your soul from existence, targeting it and your body directly at all times. When characters like gas, or goku touch it, they are fighting and resisting having their soul erased. This is relevant because Hakai is nowhere stated that it interacts and damages the soul just because it's Hakai. Hakai is very clearly made to just be an enhanced version of what ki has already been shown to do, it simply erases. As accepted, ki attacks have already been shown to interact with the soul in one way or another, Hakai damaging the soul would also mean just regular ki attacks do the same thing, the only difference is that when destroying and damaging souls, it does not erase like Hakai does, and is not as potent. Evidence would need to be provided to prove that Hakai allows for ki to have soul interaction and damage at all, or evidence of the fundamental aspect of ki to be changed, which isn't shown in the verse at all, which I’ve shown is not the case. These specific techniques are simply an extension of what ki can already do, which is evident by the fact that ki IS the spirit/soul, so the interpretation would have far more evidence backing it up, with the later having none, that being that ki can not do this.

It took me a minute to actually understand what you're saying here but now that I do (at least I think I do), I understand the point but there is still some issue. Yes, Hakai at it's core is Ki, and yes it's it's not said that Hakai is interacting with/damaging the soul because it's Hakai... However, without a doubt several aspects have changed, it's pure destruction, it's defined as that and it's at a level normal/basic ki doesn't reach. Even the Gas and Granolah example still defined it as a technique, as if it's a different aspect, clearly something has changed, not a big fundamental aspect but it's it's not normal. However, this doesn't disprove your argument, more so I'm just explaining that with the evidence provided, it's has it's own unique aspects. To fully solidify your interpretation as the most accurate, we'll need to see your other evidence, which I'll go over now.

• More examples of soul damage include statements of Vegeta being killed if he dies again. Goku mentions this to Vegeta before he goes on to stall kid buu for goku. Goku says since Vegeta is already dead, if he gets killed again, he won’t exist anymore, his soul will not be in the mortal realm, OR the dead. Now there are a couple examples of what this actually means, but first, I’ll say this directly proves that when a person in dragon ball dies by the hands of another character, that includes the soul also being killed. This lines up with healing being a spirit technique, but I digress. This would be via ki attacks, or physical attacks, both are still amped by ki. Now, backtracking a little bit, I mentioned how the soul actually regenerates when returned to the afterlife, as well as the body, in some cases like frieza, who got obliterated. This implies vegeta’s body and soul would have been obliterated by kid buu, and this is not exclusive to buu. “Not existing anymore” in this case means the soul will not regenerate and go back to the afterlife. That protection from obliteration and reincarnation cycle is gone when dead. Evil beings would negate all that, and those dead souls would not go to the afterlife and regenerate, and again, this is shown to be the case through frieza specifically. In the case of yamoshi, his soul was wandering around the universe, communing with characters through dreams like the ancient namekian, Beerus, and potentially the oracle fish. The important part here, is that we know souls can be in like fragments, as seen in the moro saga. Vegeta releases the souls and they are shown in small fragments that go back to the body, it's seen coming from Moro getting his souls ripped away, and multiple other panels. So there is not an issue for Yamoshis soul not regenerating fully, it was just floating around as something insignificant, and would still have his consciousness, and mind. Next is vegeta’s spirit fission. I know we’ve gone over this a lot, but it's very important. The way vegeta separates souls is through physical contact, he’s shown hitting moro over and over again. And he starts gradually getting weaker, (which implies the soul fragments are actually invisible until a mass quantity starts gathering). Since we know spirit fission is a spirit technique, and like I said, requiring physical contact, this means vegeta is actually damaging and interacting with moro’s soul, while separating the souls he absorbed, which is just further proof of DB characters with soul damaging ki. Another example of potential soul damage is during the Gas and Granolah fight. As the fight went on, Granolah used his infamous clone technique, which is applied by splitting his literal power to create clones. This is not an illusion, in the sense that it's fake, this clone is a very real Illusion in this case, just means deception, trickery. This is not the same as someone like Tien’s technique, which is described to be something unique to him only, and also not functioning anything like Granolah’s. Granolah’s clones are what can be assumed to be what Pybara described back in the Moro arc. A spirit technique that is used to split your soul, which creates a physical body, with memories, and its own consciousness and ki. So this is also soul splitting. It’s also shown that when the copy fizzles out, the power returns to him. The most important part here is that Granolah actually retains the damage done to these clones. Which means the ki/spirit emitted by Granolah is capable of being damaged by regular ki attacks and physical hits, which is what gas did. This further supports that gas was actually damaging Granolah’s soul directly. From the examples provided, and from a narrative standpoint, dragon ball characters are capable of soul damage with ki.

I'll start off with each example individually.

The Kid Buu/Vegeta example.[ This one is odd to me as you yourself admitted this be interpreted differently but say it's proof of soul damage. However the problem is it's not specified that Buu is doing the soul damage himself. What I mean is that another interpretation is that since Vegeta is already dead, just rocking a physical body, the laws of the Dragon Ball world dictate that he'll simply cease to exist. Goku simply says if you die while being dead, he's speaking universally, not specifically to dying from ki based assaults. This is not to say your interpretation is completely invalid, I'm simply saying there is another alternative that explains the example that doesn't require Kid Buu effecting the soul. (Basically I'm saying that Vegeta "could" have died from a heart attack while in that state and he'd cease to exist given the description Goku gave)

The Frieza example. The afterlife constructing a new body for Frieza doesn't mean everyone's soul and body regenerates because it's not implied everyone's soul is getting fragged. Frieza just gets a new body in hell to be tortured, otherwise everyone's body would be regenerating but we know that isn't the case given we see many individuals are those little clouds. I don't find this supportive to the Vegeta thing since I explained how that can be interpreted differently above.

The Yamoshi example. The issue here is that it just doesn't say how damaged his soul was, it doesn't mention his death as in was he beaten to death or blown to pieces? It just mentions he's a wondering soul. Using the Moro saga as an example to prove why his soul didn't regenerate doesn't work when his soul wasn't mentioned to be damaged in the first place, let alone to what extent. I just don't see this as much of an example given the lack of context.

The Vegeta/Moro example. I guess this works given it's not stated Spirit Fission is what allowed Vegeta to interact with Moro's soul, more so the technique is allowing him to split it from his body. Thus I can concede that this is valid proof since the the spirit stuff for the Yardrats is equivalent to ki.

The Granolah example. This honestly just seems like a drawback of his cloning technique. It's not mentioned that because Gas is hitting the soul that Granolah takes the damage from the others, it's simply said that the damage done to clones is felt by the original. This is just the techniques side effect as many cloning techniques have different drawbacks in fiction. If that statement was said in any other verse we'd assume it's the technique's after effect but your argument is because they can hit the soul, Granolah took the damage, which isn't explicitly mentioned. I'd go with the basic understanding that is a side effect of the technique.

Soul Damage Resistance
This section will be why ki users would also have a resistance to baseline affects of soul damage. With ki damaging the soul, and db characters being able to tank these types of attacks, not to mention just the mere fact that ki enhances and strengthens the soul to have a defense against soul based attacks, they should gain this resistance. We know these characters can tank attacks that target the soul, like Hakai, or Raditz fighting as a soul, or just the soul being just as strong as the body, it all depends on your ki, since ki=life energy=spiritual energy=soul. This is pretty simple all things considered, even ignoring most of the things above, a resistance to soul damage would still be valid for the reasons above at the bare minimum. Other resistances, like the spirit fission, Mafuba, Hakai, and other soul based attacks would have to be identified thoroughly, since they extend further than soul damage, and are more specific abilities that target the soul. But just for this specific soul damage resistance, it would be very widespread, just for basic Ki users, even at the initial level, basic at the worst.

My overall thoughts regarding this will be mentioned below.

My Overall Opinion and Stance

I can see what the OP is trying to suggest, I do agree that Ki has soul damage properties. The strongest evidence I think is the fact that yes, at its core Hakai is still Ki, it's not mentioned that it's because it's Hakai it's what allows it to interact with the soul, the same goes for Spirit Control as it's stated to just be the equivalent of Ki. So given Ki possess spiritual properties via the various methods, I can agree that it can be used to damage the soul.

However, I don't think it's a passive like effect that they're doing all the time. Hakai, Spirit Control and their applications are outright naturally applying that spirit aspect. I'm not saying they're fundamentally different, I'm saying there the application being utilized. Hakai is pure destruction, Granolah defined his version as a "Technique", Spirit Control/Spirit Fission is Vegeta applying the spiritual aspect of Ki in a harmful way. These are clearly displayed as methods to apply the impact of the spiritual aspect of Ki. The verse wouldn't describe them as such if every random who threw a ki blast was immediately applying the spiritual aspect of soul damage.

So while I agree with soul damage being a thing, I think it should only be applied to the ki energies or techniques of characters who tailor their attacks to go that route. I'm not saying it's not a function of Ki, I'm saying it's an aspect that they have to apply, not a passive one. They can hit the soul but I'm requires them to attune it to do that. I just don't find most of the supportive evidence solid enough to say it's a passive effect of basic ki attacks, I think some of them can be interpreted differently which leads to a less solid argument. Now this doesn't mean it can't be what you're saying, I just see it differently specifically some just being laws of the world or technique. I guess the resistance to soul damage can be universal since that's not something they seemingly need to attune, given characters with no Hakai, have resisted it's effects if strong enough.

Anyway, those are my general thoughts on the matter. I've still got IRL work to do so I might not respond to any comments quickly.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'll start off with each example individually.

The Kid Buu/Vegeta example.[ This one is odd to me as you yourself admitted this be interpreted differently but say it's proof of soul damage. However the problem is it's not specified that Buu is doing the soul damage himself. What I mean is that another interpretation is that since Vegeta is already dead, just rocking a physical body, the laws of the Dragon Ball world dictate that he'll simply cease to exist. Goku simply says if you die while being dead, he's speaking universally, not specifically to dying from ki based assaults. This is not to say your interpretation is completely invalid, I'm simply saying there is another alternative that explains the example that doesn't require Kid Buu effecting the soul. (Basically I'm saying that Vegeta "could" have died from a heart attack while in that state and he'd cease to exist given the description Goku gave)

First off, thank you for actually taking the time to read and address everything. Very much appreciated. Now, for your hypothetical of vegeta dying another way, like a heart attack for example or natural causes, I definitely see what you are getting at with this. While it is true that goku is speaking universally about this specific instance of dying while dead, in context, I think it's more consistent to think goku means like actually being killed by another while dead. As yes, it is interpretation based to an extent. But in these instances we would go with the most likely/most consistent. But I can definitely see your argument, I won't argue about this point too much.

The Frieza example. The afterlife constructing a new body for Frieza doesn't mean everyone's soul and body regenerates because it's not implied everyone's soul is getting fragged. Frieza just gets a new body in hell to be tortured, otherwise everyone's body would be regenerating but we know that isn't the case given we see many individuals are those little clouds. I don't find this supportive to the Vegeta thing since I explained how that can be interpreted differently above.

On this point, I never argued that souls that die all get fragged. That was more so an example of that actually being possible and it not breaking any rules, which is why I brought up the moro examples. Also, frieza doesn't inherently have to receive a new body to undergo torture, since souls have a consciousness, retain memories, and their mind. Frieza really has no reason to have a body, and yemma has no reason to give him one either. Frieza was actually an anomaly, he refused to repent, and as such, was forced into a cocoon, his body totally useless. Also see the raditz example I put out. Raditz would of had to undergo some sort of regeneration/healing after he got a beating from king yemma, which supports the argument. So, I think you'll find arguing these points from the perspective of ki damaging the soul, takes far less assumptions, than it would if you were to argue the latter, that being ki does not damage the soul. At least not passively.

The Yamoshi example. The issue here is that it just doesn't say how damaged his soul was, it doesn't mention his death as in was he beaten to death or blown to pieces? It just mentions he's a wondering soul. Using the Moro saga as an example to prove why his soul didn't regenerate doesn't work when his soul wasn't mentioned to be damaged in the first place, let alone to what extent. I just don't see this as much of an example given the lack of context.

This seems kind of weird to me, since you did admit that my example with the ki/hakai point technically wasn't disproven. So in this case, its not a matter of IF his soul was damaged. It seems you agreed it was, so what matters is how much. Now its true we don't know how much his soul was damaged. But remember, I only used the moro scan to prove how there would be no issues with yamoshi's soul being fragged and still being able to commune with other spirts, not that it absolutely was fragged.

The Vegeta/Moro example. I guess this works given it's not stated Spirit Fission is what allowed Vegeta to interact with Moro's soul, more so the technique is allowing him to split it from his body. Thus I can concede that this is valid proof since the the spirit stuff for the Yardrats is equivalent to ki.

Okay great, we can move on then.

The Granolah example. This honestly just seems like a drawback of his cloning technique. It's not mentioned that because Gas is hitting the soul that Granolah takes the damage from the others, it's simply said that the damage done to clones is felt by the original. This is just the techniques side effect as many cloning techniques have different drawbacks in fiction. If that statement was said in any other verse we'd assume it's the technique's after effect but your argument is because they can hit the soul, Granolah took the damage, which isn't explicitly mentioned. I'd go with the basic understanding that is a side effect of the technique.

Now I'm going to put a lot more emphasis on this response since I do have some problems with your counterarguments against it. Now, you are correct in your assessment of Granolah's ability. That being the drawbacks. But it's a little more complicated than that of course. In order for these drawbacks/side affects to take place, it depends on prerequisites. The only one that is, is for his clones to actually be damaged. There is a difference from a technique taking a physical toll on you JUST because you used it, as opposed to the side affects happening because of a certain condition taking place. Let me explain. Now again, what exactly are granolah's clones? Well they are simply his own power/ki/soul, that's it. Since ki=spirit, he takes some of his own actual spirit, and manifest it as clones to fight for him. They are capable of using his own techniques, his own mind, capable of talking, having conversations, etc. Pybara explains how they don't devote any of their time anywhere else but spirit control. Which is exactly what Granolah is using, just splitting his soul. Now, what is important here is how granolah's clones actually get damaged. Gas attacks granolah's clones with physical hits, and just basic ki blast and beams. That is exactly how he took so much damage. We know this energy fizzles and goes back to granolah, which is exactly why he retains the damage. For this to be the case, this means gas is just straight up interacting and harming granolah's soul. Again, it really needs to be understood that the clones are literally just a result of splitting his very spirit, which adds more validity to the overall argument I'd say. That is the only way it can be explained for this. The damage sticks to his ki/soul. It is a drawback yes, but this only exist because of how the technique actually works.

My overall thoughts regarding this will be mentioned below.

My Overall Opinion and Stance

I can see what the OP is trying to suggest, I do agree that Ki has soul damage properties. The strongest evidence I think is the fact that yes, at its core Hakai is still Ki, it's not mentioned that it's because it's Hakai it's what allows it to interact with the soul, the same goes for Spirit Control as it's stated to just be the equivalent of Ki. So given Ki possess spiritual properties via the various methods, I can agree that it can be used to damage the soul.

However, I don't think it's a passive like effect that they're doing all the time. Hakai, Spirit Control and their applications are outright naturally applying that spirit aspect. I'm not saying they're fundamentally different, I'm saying there the application being utilized. Hakai is pure destruction, Granolah defined his version as a "Technique", Spirit Control/Spirit Fission is Vegeta applying the spiritual aspect of Ki in a harmful way. These are clearly displayed as methods to apply the impact of the spiritual aspect of Ki. The verse wouldn't describe them as such if every random who threw a ki blast was immediately applying the spiritual aspect of soul damage.

So while I agree with soul damage being a thing, I think it should only be applied to the ki energies or techniques of characters who tailor their attacks to go that route. I'm not saying it's not a function of Ki, I'm saying it's an aspect that they have to apply, not a passive one. They can hit the soul but I'm requires them to attune it to do that. I just don't find most of the supportive evidence solid enough to say it's a passive effect of basic ki attacks, I think some of them can be interpreted differently which leads to a less solid argument. Now this doesn't mean it can't be what you're saying, I just see it differently specifically some just being laws of the world or technique.

I'm sort of confused by what you mean here. Are you saying you think this is something that like, consciously has to be applied by ki users, as opposed to something that just happens? If so, how do we treat this? Because it seems like you're saying its situational, which I'm not sure how I feel about that assessment. How would we know when this specific property is applied? And is this more accurate than saying this just always happens as simply a product of being ki itself? Especially since ki is just spirit in general. Hence, I feel like that would be more consistent, and require far less assumptions such as that. Let me know if I have something wrong here. If my responses don't change your mind to this, feel free to correct me of your intentions with your statement.

I guess the resistance to soul damage can be universal since that's not something they seemingly need to attune, given characters with no Hakai, have resisted it's effects if strong enough.

Okay great, well that doesn't need to be discussed further then.

Anyway, those are my general thoughts on the matter. I've still got IRL work to do so I might not respond to any comments quickly.

Yeah all good.

 

[MeiouHades]

Marg Bar Dragon Ball downplay

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree with this.

 

[Huesito88]

I disagree with this.

For what reasons?

 

[MeiouHades]

Bro does NOT have a reason

 

[Hasty12345]

Bro does NOT have a reason

social pressure too much

I agree with the thread btw

 

[Shar122]

Bump

 

[TiltedFN]

Bump

 

[MeiouHades]

Ts is so dry rn it's pmo

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yeah I disagree with Ki in general sharing the soul-destroying properties of Hakai/Energy of Destruction. The series clearly presents EOD as something its own distinct abilities when Sidra explains it in the show, not just a generic ki attack.



I don't think the Vegeta example proves all Ki attacks target and destroy the soul either. It's just a consequence of being killed when you're already dead

This

We still need you to respond and say what you think about the crt

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

the only one who covered all the points was LordGriffin1000, the rest just kept talking about one separate thing or another

 

[Huesito88]

image removed

Bruh why are you posting private stuff like this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

image removed

Yeah, this is a very inappropriate topic to discuss publicly; not to mention, especially if those reasons seem quite weak.

Edit: Removed derailed posts, but leaving this one as a reminder.

 

[Smokeychees]

I agree with the thread

 

[LordGriffin1000]

My apologies for not responding yesterday but I was busy.

First off, thank you for actually taking the time to read and address everything. Very much appreciated. Now, for your hypothetical of vegeta dying another way, like a heart attack for example or natural causes, I definitely see what you are getting at with this. While it is true that goku is speaking universally about this specific instance of dying while dead, in context, I think it's more consistent to think goku means like actually being killed by another while dead. As yes, it is interpretation based to an extent. But in these instances we would go with the most likely/most consistent. But I can definitely see your argument, I won't argue about this point too much.

Fair enough. It's just one of those pieces of evidence that I'm hesitant on using.

On this point, I never argued that souls that die all get fragged. That was more so an example of that actually being possible and it not breaking any rules, which is why I brought up the moro examples. Also, frieza doesn't inherently have to receive a new body to undergo torture, since souls have a consciousness, retain memories, and their mind. Frieza really has no reason to have a body, and yemma has no reason to give him one either. Frieza was actually an anomaly, he refused to repent, and as such, was forced into a cocoon, his body totally useless. Also see the raditz example I put out. Raditz would of had to undergo some sort of regeneration/healing after he got a beating from king yemma, which supports the argument. So, I think you'll find arguing these points from the perspective of ki damaging the soul, takes far less assumptions, than it would if you were to argue the latter, that being ki does not damage the soul. At least not passively.

I see, I guess you could call some of them anomalies, given Raditz would have had to have a body to even attempt to fight King Yemma, and given we accept him as beating him as per his own words, soul damage works. I think the only thing that would be an issue would be the assumption that since King Yemma is the guy who keeps them in check, he'd inherently have the ability to effect souls but that's just an assumption and he has ki so I'm willing to accept that as evidence.

This seems kind of weird to me, since you did admit that my example with the ki/hakai point technically wasn't disproven. So in this case, its not a matter of IF his soul was damaged. It seems you agreed it was, so what matters is how much. Now its true we don't know how much his soul was damaged. But remember, I only used the moro scan to prove how there would be no issues with yamoshi's soul being fragged and still being able to commune with other spirts, not that it absolutely was fragged.

True enough. I don't have a counterpoint to the ki/Hakai core aspect. I was looking at it from the perspective of if it wasn't valid, by itself which is something people do. I wanted to see what it could support on its own, but yes, going off the core aspects still being the same, his soul would have been effected to some degree.

Now I'm going to put a lot more emphasis on this response since I do have some problems with your counterarguments against it. Now, you are correct in your assessment of Granolah's ability. That being the drawbacks. But it's a little more complicated than that of course. In order for these drawbacks/side affects to take place, it depends on prerequisites. The only one that is, is for his clones to actually be damaged. There is a difference from a technique taking a physical toll on you JUST because you used it, as opposed to the side affects happening because of a certain condition taking place. Let me explain. Now again, what exactly are granolah's clones? Well they are simply his own power/ki/soul, that's it. Since ki=spirit, he takes some of his own actual spirit, and manifest it as clones to fight for him. They are capable of using his own techniques, his own mind, capable of talking, having conversations, etc. Pybara explains how they don't devote any of their time anywhere else but spirit control. Which is exactly what Granolah is using, just splitting his soul. Now, what is important here is how granolah's clones actually get damaged. Gas attacks granolah's clones with physical hits, and just basic ki blast and beams. That is exactly how he took so much damage. We know this energy fizzles and goes back to granolah, which is exactly why he retains the damage. For this to be the case, this means gas is just straight up interacting and harming granolah's soul. Again, it really needs to be understood that the clones are literally just a result of splitting his very spirit, which adds more validity to the overall argument I'd say. That is the only way it can be explained for this. The damage sticks to his ki/soul. It is a drawback yes, but this only exist because of how the technique actually works.

If I understand you correctly your argument is that because Granolah's clones are constructs of his ki/spirit control (his actual spirit basically) that because the damage is shown to return to him after they are dispatched, it's more logical that it's proof of Gas damaging his soul?

I'm not going to say this is completely invalid, as it's true that other characters can deal damage to a clone and pass that damage back do to it returning, so yes. You're explanation works, however the reason I go with it's just an after effect is because we usually go with the most basic assumption, with that said though at the end of the dayy argument is still an assumption based on how I interpreted Vegeta saying it and how fiction would treat it. But your explanation would still fit to explain it.

I'm sort of confused by what you mean here. Are you saying you think this is something that like, consciously has to be applied by ki users, as opposed to something that just happens? If so, how do we treat this? Because it seems like you're saying its situational, which I'm not sure how I feel about that assessment. How would we know when this specific property is applied? And is this more accurate than saying this just always happens as simply a product of being ki itself? Especially since ki is just spirit in general. Hence, I feel like that would be more consistent, and require far less assumptions such as that. Let me know if I have something wrong here. If my responses don't change your mind to this, feel free to correct me of your intentions with your statement.

I'm not saying it's situational, more so that they could apply it if they focused to do it. An example I can use is Danny Phantom's energy blasts natural cause harm, but in one episode he focused and fired it at a humans forehead but instead of effecting them it hit the ghost that was possessing them without harming the human. I'm basically saying if Goku kicked someone (obviously ki enhanced) it would naturally cause physical damage, but he'd actually need to focus his energy to hit the spirit. So not situational, just something I think experienced ki users can apply if they so choose.

However, I will say this. As I've said in my evaluation, I agree with soul damage. The main reason I am not sure about it being a natural occurrence was due to how spiritual focused the evidence is, like there saying these guys applied it in that way, not that it's always like that. However I will admit that my argument is still an assumption. The OP has proven in the previous thread that ki has the spiritual attributes, it is in the same category as spirit control, and as I conceded, Spirit Control/Hakai are still Ki at their core and while they can effect the soul, this is not there unique fundamental aspect, Ki has this aspect so the OP's argument is sound, King Yemma is a valid example as it's not stated that because he's in that position that he can cause soul damage, as that's not stated and he still has Ki.

So if I had to take a stance to move this thread along, I'd agree that Ki can do soul damage, and that it's more likely a natural occurrence as while I can argue that the feats could be something they half to focus to do, it's not described as such and the feats such as Spirit Control/Hakai are just naturally doing it so unless someone provides better counters then I could. I will agree with the OP. I don't know the ins and outs of Dragon Ball at the end of the day so I don't know if there are other potential arguments, that's up to the others that decide to debate.

With that said, I think the OP did a solid job, certain points I'm still on the fence about do to interpretation reasons but the core reasoning is sound. I guess that's it for me, I hope this thread gets finished. I'll see y'all later. Keep it civil, please.

 

[Damage3245]

If I understand you correctly your argument is that because Granolah's clones are constructs of his ki/spirit control (his actual spirit basically) that because the damage is shown to return to him after they are dispatched, it's more logical that it's proof of Gas damaging his soul?

I'm not going to say this is completely invalid, as it's true that other characters can deal damage to a clone and pass that damage back do to it returning, so yes. You're explanation works, however the reason I go with it's just an after effect is because we usually go with the most basic assumption, with that said though at the end of the dayy argument is still an assumption based on how I interpreted Vegeta saying it and how fiction would treat it. But your explanation would still fit to explain it.

Just a thought, but if it did work this way, then by the same logic wouldn't Gotenks suffer damage whenever his Ghost Kamikaze Attack takes damage? Those are also constructs made of his Ki which the OP is seemingly equating to the soul.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Just a thought, but if it did work this way, then by the same logic wouldn't Gotenks suffer damage whenever his Ghost Kamikaze Attack takes damage? Those are also constructs made of his Ki which the OP is seemingly equating to the soul.

Did they return to him? I don't remember the Manga. Granolah's clones ki returns to him after.

 

[TiltedFN]

Just a thought, but if it did work this way, then by the same logic wouldn't Gotenks suffer damage whenever his Ghost Kamikaze Attack takes damage? Those are also constructs made of his Ki which the OP is seemingly equating to the soul.

No, since I already said that they go back to granolah. Also Gotenks SGKA explodes on contact lol, it doesn't return to gotenks. They evidently do not function the same. At all.

 

[Damage3245]

No, since I already said that they go back to granolah. Also Gotenks SGKA explodes on contact lol, it doesn't return to gotenks. They evidently do not function the same. At all.

Okay, that explains that, thanks.

I'm still not convinced on the clones part of the argument though; it is seemingly just a weakness of the technique that damage sustained by the clones returns to the user. It doesn't point to Soul-based damage based on what I've seen so far.

 

[MeiouHades]

Okay, that explains that, thanks.

I'm still not convinced on the clones part of the argument though; it is seemingly just a weakness of the technique that damage sustained by the clones returns to the user. It doesn't point to Soul-based damage based on what I've seen so far.

A weakness that's explained by the very thing we're proposing. That's why I said before that this isn't the counterargument one might think it is.

 

[Damage3245]

A weakness that's explained by the very thing we're proposing. That's why I said before that this isn't the counterargument one might think it is.

As LordGriffin said above, the explanation that's being proposed is theoretically valid but it's still an assumption. Head canon doesn't become canon just because it makes sense.

 

[MeiouHades]

As LordGriffin said above, the explanation that's being proposed is theoretically valid but it's still an assumption. Head canon doesn't become canon just because it makes sense.

Put it this way, it being a technique-specific drawback is also technically just as unfounded and based on assumptions because the manga doesn't actually tell us that his technique has this weakness. So you've got two options to choose from, and we're saying that the one we propose is better because of how consistently it applies to and fits with the other evidence we provided.

You don't have to agree with our explanation here, but you must at least acknowledge that because Granola's technique has no other explanation, calling it technique-specific is just as unfounded. Since Vegeta just describes what he sees, there's no other explanation to favor the former over latter.

 

[Damage3245]

Put it this way, it being a technique-specific drawback is also technically just as unfounded and based on assumptions because the manga doesn't actually tell us that his technique has this weakness. So you've got two options to choose from, and we're saying that the one we propose is better because of how consistently it applies to and fits with the other evidence we provided.

You don't have to agree with our explanation here, but you must at least acknowledge that because Granola's technique has no other explanation, calling it technique-specific is just as unfounded. Since Vegeta just describes what he sees, there's no other explanation to favor the former over latter.

This part of the OP here:

The most important part here is that Granolah actually retains the damage done to these clones. Which means the ki/spirit emitted by Granolah is capable of being damaged by regular ki attacks and physical hits, which is what gas did. This further supports that gas was actually damaging Granolah’s soul directly. From the examples provided, and from a narrative standpoint, dragon ball characters are capable of soul damage with ki.

I disagree with the assumption here which is because the clones are formed by Granolah's Ki, that it means when they take damage that Granolah's Ki and therefore his "soul" is what is taking damage.

When the clones are formed, they are fully flesh-and-blood clones, capable of sweating, bleeding, taking clothing damage, etc. They're no different than the real thing. When they're hurt, it's not a "soul" that is being damaged, but a body. That the body is formed from Ki in the first place doesn't matter.

It's like Shadow Clones in Naruto; just because a character punches a clone in the face and damages it doesn't mean they're interacting with chakra itself, but a physical body that is formed from that chakra.

It's also being assumed that the damage only happened to Granolah the moment the clones disappeared and the power returned to him. When the clones disappear we don't see Granolah become any more damaged than he was before. The damage could've been inflicted on him from the very moment his clones were injured, and he just held up long enough after Gas was blasted away before he slumped to the ground.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

From what I can tell, Granola's technique literally splits his power, and is something much more fundamentally spiritual, so much so that the clone even returns to him.

Gotenks technique, on the other hand, seems much simpler, It's not like a character took damage every time someone countered his ki attack or every time the power exploded. There is no way to equalize the two.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This part of the OP here:



I disagree with the assumption here which is because the clones are formed by Granolah's Ki, that it means when they take damage that Granolah's Ki and therefore his "soul" is what is taking damage.

When the clones are formed, they are fully flesh-and-blood clones, capable of sweating, bleeding, taking clothing damage, etc. They're no different than the real thing. When they're hurt, it's not a "soul" that is being damaged, but a body. That the body is formed from Ki in the first place doesn't matter.

It's like Shadow Clones in Naruto; just because a character punches a clone in the face and damages it doesn't mean they're interacting with chakra itself, but a physical body that is formed from that chakra.

It's also being assumed that the damage only happened to Granolah the moment the clones disappeared and the power returned to him. When the clones disappear we don't see Granolah become any more damaged than he was before. The damage could've been inflicted on him from the very moment his clones were injured, and he just held up long enough after Gas was blasted away before he slumped to the ground.

The entire point is that the damage dealt to Granolah is a consequence of his soul being damaged by Gas harming all of his copies (which immediately turn back into spiritual form). The lack of additional external damage supports the idea that the damage is spiritual. Shadow Clones aren't even remotely equivalent as comparison.

What I am understanding here is that you are essentially arguing against a reasonable interpretation that utilises information we know (Spirit Control, Ki = Spirit = Soul, Cloning is done via splitting the Spirit or Soul, when clones are destroyed the original takes damage) with an unreasonable assumption (it's an unexplained inherent drawback that exists for seemingly no reason, particularly given the ability already has the weakness of splitting the user's power when in use). Your take, as such, is in bad faith.

Please construct an adequate explanation for your interpretation of how Granolah's cloning works. If you cannot do that then your interpretation is inferior.