Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 2

[FinePoint]

Like I said, in this context, the reason several characters can manifest in the CoB is because they’re emanations of Ange’s essence, who was able to access the CoB in the first place because Featherine (a High 1-A being) allowed it, elevating her existential level up to that point.

And in Umineko, the higher you ascend, the more powerful you are, so there’s really no argument against that. It’s as clear as water.

And what is an "emanation of Ange’s essence" in this context?

And to clarify, by "manifest" are you just referring to showing up there, or...?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

And what is an "emanation of Ange’s essence" in this context?

Well, literally that. Read the scans I posted on the Imgur - Ange, from her golden essence, summons/resurrects all of Beatrice’s pieces up to her own existential level (the City of Books).

And to clarify, by "manifest" are you just referring to showing up there, or...?

Please, read the scans.

 

[FinePoint]

Well, literally that. Read the scans I posted on the Imgur - Ange, from her golden essence, summons/resurrects all of Beatrice’s pieces up to her own existential level (the City of Books).
Please, read the scans.

I did, but it didn't really answer any of my questions or on its own establish any of these claims.

The scan itself just shows her summoning a bunch of people behind her and referring to them as a long list of platitudes

She says everyone will always be alive here because their souls are with her.

Is that a metaphor? Is that literal? Are these actually the people or just constructions in their image? Illusions?
What feats do they have? Just existing in a High 1-A place for some time isn't necessarily proof you're High 1-A.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Is that a metaphor? Is that literal? Are these actually the people or just constructions in their image? Illusions?
What feats do they have? Just existing in a High 1-A place isn't proof you're High 1-A.

What I wrote:

And in Umineko, the higher you ascend, the more powerful you are, so there’s really no argument against that. It’s as clear as water.

I did, but it didn't really answer any of my questions or on its own establish any of these claims.

The scan itself just shows her summoning a bunch of people behind her and referring to them as a long list of platitudes

Ehh.... My claim:

Ange, from her golden essence, summons/resurrects all of Beatrice’s pieces up to her own existential level (the City of Books).

That's exactly what the scans shows. Ange summoning all of her family in the City of Books.

Ange’s manifestations — even low-level furniture — are capable of significantly damaging Bernkastel’s leviathan, which is itself a High 1-A being.

 

[FinePoint]

Ange’s manifestations — even low-level furniture — are capable of significantly damaging Bernkastel’s leviathan, which is itself a High 1-A being.

That is much better evidence, thank you.

That said, are these vague manifestations really worth an entire High 1-A key for?

Do they exist outside this battle, or...?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

That said, are these vague manifestations really worth an entire High 1-A key for?

Yes. There’s literally no reason (aside from unreasonable skepticism toward blatant scans) not to give those characters a key.

Do they exist outside this battle, or...?

I don’t understand why you’re asking this. But yes, those characters are actual pieces on the gameboard of the CoB. Like seriously — not giving them a key is the equivalent of not giving any key to any character in the verse.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Like, all the characters with the current profiles have a key of their manifestation in the CoB. I don't understand why are we discussing this in the first place.

 

[FinePoint]

Yes. There’s literally no reason (aside from unreasonable skepticism toward blatant scans) not to give those characters a key.

I don’t understand why you’re asking this. But yes, those characters are actual pieces on the gameboard of the CoB. Like seriously — not giving them a key is the equivalent of not giving any key to any character in the verse.

Like, all the characters with the current profiles have a key of their manifestation in the CoB. I don't understand why are we discussing this in the first place.

Friend, I am simply asking clarifying questions because I know nothing about the verse and you're proposing upgrading a ton of characters to High 1-A.

If I had any questions, and didn't ask them before approving such a thing, I feel that would be very remiss on my part.
I hope you understand it is only my intention to be thorough, not difficult.

Anyway, I'm asking because I'm unsure whether these are actually the characters named as opposed to recreations of them from her memory.

That is why I'm asking if they have continued appearance after this with memory of what happened, etc.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyway, I'm asking because I'm unsure whether these are actually the characters named as opposed to recreations of them from her memory.

AS LONG AS I LIVE FOR THE FUTURE...
...WE'LL ALWAYS BE TOGETHER
THEIR SOULS WILL ALWAYS BE WITH ME...!

That is why I'm asking if they have continued appearance after this with memory of what happened, etc.

Yes.

After Ange leaves the City of Books, all the pieces remain there — and they only leave once Featherine takes the board and throws it into the depths of Oblivion.

I hope that’s enough.

 

[FinePoint]

After Ange leaves the City of Books, all the pieces remain there — and they only leave once Featherine takes the board and throws it into the depths of Oblivion.

Alright. Thank you. In that case, I'm not opposed to High 1-A for the manifestations.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The OP makes sense to me.

 

[Livinaa]

I can elaborate on this in more detail, since I understand the doubts around it.

The statement that Featherine perceives the witches’ realm as a game board doesn’t refer to her true form — it directly alludes to her manifestation in her study (the one that we actually see writing the story in the EP8 of the manga), which shares the same "framework" as the City of Books.

Together, these and other higher planes make up what’s known as the “world of the great witches,” which lies beyond all the typical witch Territories like the ones seen in Episode 7.

When Ange accesses the City of Books through an invitation (i.e., a summoning), she discovers (through Erika) that the great witches of the Senate consider everything that’s happened up until that point (Beatrice’s catbox, Bernkastel, and basically all that “lower domain”) so insignificant that it doesn’t even amount to a single book within the City of Books.

That statement isn’t a standalone — Umineko Saku reinforces this through the Ange acting as a piece on Featherine’s board, who confirms that the entire witches’ world is perceived by Featherine (Great Witch of the Senate) as text written on a mere sheet of paper (using the background of the CoB).

And we know it’s referring to her manifestation because the same statement refers to the great witches of the CoB, and Ryukishi07 himself has said that Featherine’s manifestation exists in a collaborative world shared with other witches of that level [ 3rd scan of the Imgur]. That can’t be Featherine’s true form — because Featherine True Form is verbatim described as the highest goddess of existence [Excelsis Dea], dwelling in a plane where she’s on the verge of losing her identity and dissolving, making her a one-of-a-kind case and the reason she’s a legendary witch.

I still don't understand how Featherine viewing the Witch Domain as a fiction (gameboard) is different than how Witches and Kakeras work.

The Witches look down on the world of Humans as a gameboard from the higher world.

For the Meta Beings (the beings of the higher domain) the Kakera are like books, movies, or video games to them.

This is similar to how Featherine views the Witch Domain, aka R>F.

The layers of the Witch Domain also have a transcendent factor between them, the lower layer being just a Kakera or books to the higher layer, such as with Beatrice’s Catbox and games being just a Kakera in Bern’s Catbox, or the entirety of the Sea of Kakera in Hanyuu’s Catbox being just a Kakera in Eua’s; the inhabitants of said lower layers being no more than fictional characters to the higher layer beings.

It's also explained that all inhabitants of lower Kakeras are fictional to inhabitants of higher Kakeras. Similar to how the entire Witch Domain is fictional to Featherine.

Since Witch Domain has endless layers in it (1-A+), Featherine (City of Books) perceiving the entirety of Witch Domain as fiction would still be 1-A+, but higher.

Mind you, there's characters here who view entire infinite layers of R>F, similar to Witch Domain, as fiction, rated as higher into 1-A+.

There's also this scan:

Additionally, it is noted that the difference between the domains is trivial to her, and Tohya Hachijo and Featherine Augustus Aurora are just roles of an indescribable actor entity.

I never understood the context of this scan clearly, since i don't know how the story goes. Is the Featherine talking in the scan, Featherine Augustus Aurora who resides in City of Books or True Form Featherine? (Sorry if all these are actually the same Featherine).

Even then, there's two possible context for the scans above:
1. Both Featherine Augustus Aurora and Tohya Hachijo are both Pieces used to interact with lower layers of Witch Domain and Human Domain.
2. She is neither Featherine Augustus Aurora nor Tohya Hachijo. Neither inhabitants of Witch Domain nor Human Domain (neither 1-A nor non 1-A).

If the context refers to the second one, i agree with High 1-A. But if it's the first one, i only see higher into 1-A+.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm mistaken about something, since every information i used are scans provided in Umineko CRTs.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I still don't understand how Featherine viewing the Witch Domain as a fiction (gameboard) is different than how Witches and Kakeras work.

It is directly stated.

This is similar to how Featherine views the Witch Domain, aka R>F.

You are ignoring all the context behind both. I've already addressed how both domains are completely separated.

I can elaborate on this in more detail, since I understand the doubts around it.

The statement that Featherine perceives the witches’ realm as a game board doesn’t refer to her true form — it directly alludes to her manifestation in her study (the one that we actually see writing the story in the EP8 of the manga), which shares the same "framework" as the City of Books.

Together, these and other higher planes make up what’s known as the “world of the great witches,” which lies beyond all the typical witch Territories like the ones seen in Episode 7.

When Ange accesses the City of Books through an invitation (i.e., a summoning), she discovers (through Erika) that the great witches of the Senate consider everything that’s happened up until that point (Beatrice’s catbox, Bernkastel, and basically all that “lower domain”) so insignificant that it doesn’t even amount to a single book within the City of Books.

That statement isn’t a standalone — Umineko Saku reinforces this through the Ange acting as a piece on Featherine’s board, who confirms that the entire witches’ world is perceived by Featherine (Great Witch of the Senate) as text written on a mere sheet of paper (using the background of the CoB).

And we know it’s referring to her manifestation because the same statement refers to the great witches of the CoB, and Ryukishi07 himself has said that Featherine’s manifestation exists in a collaborative world shared with other witches of that level [ 3rd scan of the Imgur]. That can’t be Featherine’s true form — because Featherine True Form is verbatim described as the highest goddess of existence [Excelsis Dea], dwelling in a plane where she’s on the verge of losing her identity and dissolving, making her a one-of-a-kind case and the reason she’s a legendary witch.

Alright then…

The underlying reason of the tier is that Territories operate on the basis of a dialectical ground from which worlds are created. For example, Beatrice’s catbox admits as a valid current world any theory expressible through language regarding the events on Rokkenjima.

This catbox is entirely disconnected from the mortal plane by a 1-A gap, as it not only contains every possible combination of human language usable to approach the mystery, but also because the world of the gods (the witches) operates using a transcendental language that surpasses the entire human framework. In other words, it’s impossible to express in human language the meaning of a phrase written in the language of the gods, no matter how many possible combinations are attempted.

The plane where both Featherine’s study and the City of Books (CoB) exist is so absurdly superior that even to formulate the possibilities of a board/fragment/book, it requires a language only great witches can comprehend. This language is described as hyperdense from the perspective of a being like Meta Ange.

That’s precisely why the City of Books functions as the Akashic record of the witches’ world, capable of storing all possible worlds in the form of books. It represents the metafictional version of the Library of Time, which acts as the Akashic record of the human world.

So in summary: the City of Books completely transcends the conventional framework of the witches’ world, and it’s from that plane that the High 1-A level begins.

Regarding your question about why so many characters manage to manifest at that level — the reason is that all of them are emanations of the heart / golden essence of Ange Beatrice, who is one of the highest-level entities in the entire verse, having reached the level of a true Golden Witch. Therefore, they necessarily scale to High 1-A as well.

As for their true forms, Featherine and the Creator María occupy higher layers of High 1-A, respectively. For simplicity, let’s say the first and second layer within High 1-A — since I plan to make an extremely detailed post about this in the future, and I think defining it right now is unnecessary.

Regarding the last part...

Even then, there's two possible context for the scans above:
1. Both Featherine Augustus Aurora and Tohya Hachijo are both Pieces used to interact with lower layers of Witch Domain and Human Domain.
2. She is neither Featherine Augustus Aurora nor Tohya Hachijo. Neither inhabitants of Witch Domain nor Human Domain (neither 1-A nor non 1-A).

If the context refers to the second one, i agree with High 1-A. But if it's the first one, i only see higher into 1-A+.

It’s the second option. The indescribable entity is Featherine’s true form — the one behind both roles.

 

[Wankbreaker]

What feats do they have? Just existing in a High 1-A place isn't proof you're High 1-A.

Via the new tiering system and the general rules of the franchise, that is indeed what it means, because of how these qualitative transcendences work.

 

[Livinaa]

You are ignoring all the context behind both. I've already addressed how both domains are completely separated.

This catbox is entirely disconnected from the mortal plane by a 1-A gap, as it not only contains every possible combination of human language usable to approach the mystery, but also because the world of the gods (the witches) operates using a transcendental language that surpasses the entire human framework. In other words, it’s impossible to express in human language the meaning of a phrase written in the language of the gods, no matter how many possible combinations are attempted.

The plane where both Featherine’s study and the City of Books (CoB) exist is so absurdly superior that even to formulate the possibilities of a board/fragment/book, it requires a language only great witches can comprehend. This language is described as hyperdense from the perspective of a being like Meta Ange.

I believe the bolded part is the context?

From the first bolded part, I understand how the difference between Witch Domain and Human Domain works, since the language is irreducible and unable to be conveyed in human language (non 1-A).

However, for the second bolded part, I don't think the language used by Great Witches has the same gap as between witch's language and human language. It's not a transcendental language, especially since Witches can become Great Witches (may be wrong/mistaken), which means they can eventually understand the language, whereas humans can never understand witch's language since they're non 1-A, unless they're brought up into the Witch Domain by a Witch or getting a recognition from a Witch to complete their internal evolution (as explained in the original thread)

Unless, a Witch can only become a Great Witch with the help of another Great Witch. Then i can see how the Great Witch's language is also a transcendental language, and therefore High 1-A.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Via the new tiering system and the general rules of the franchise, that is indeed what it means, because of how these qualitative transcendences work.

Even if that’s not the case in an average scenario, it doesn’t matter — because Umineko is as clear as water when it comes to how a being shedding restrictions and becoming progressively more omnipotent by ascending through the cosmology is directly tied to existential power. That’s the entire reason why Featherine is who she is.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

However, for the second bolded part, I don't think the language used by Great Witches has the same gap as between witch's language and human language. It's not a transcendental language, especially since Witches can become Great Witches (may be wrong/mistaken), which means they can eventually understand the language, whereas humans can never understand witch's language since they're non 1-A, unless they're brought up into the Witch Domain by a Witch or getting a recognition from a Witch to complete their internal evolution (as explained in the original thread)

You’re once again ignoring important context just to push a narrative that’s based entirely on your own headcanon.

The way a human becomes a witch — or a witch becomes a great witch — is through higher entities that allow you to ascend to that level, just like what happened with Yasuda when she became a witch.

You’re being pretty dishonest by ignoring how the work itself explicitly compares the gap between the witches’ domain and the human domain with the gap between the witches’ domain and the domain of the great witches.

If you accept that the first gap is 1-A, then you’re automatically conceding that the second is High 1-A.

The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise with scans.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think?

I'm not against High 1-A in principle, but my only experience with a similar topic was with Dungeons and Dragons where the Luminous Being, who views other 1-A figures as they view lesser beings, was rejected by Ultima for High 1-A for not meeting a substantial enough evidence for separation in their realness.

For the thread the big issue i see is that ladder metaphor which would dismiss them as being in separate hierarchies, but the same hierarchy at different levels. However, that same ladder example includes baseline humans so its not the best evidence either for dismissal. As stated earlier its more defining the start and end of the overall power structure (so 10-B to 0) rather than a single hierarchy in of itself.

For the thread I think Featherine and Beatrice (assuming she becomes her equal) are fine at High 1-A for being R>F to other R>Fs. I'm iffy on the Sea of Oblivion and the Library being High 1-A, but if they are also upgraded I vaguely understand why they'd be up there.

 

[Livinaa]

You’re once again ignoring important context just to push a narrative that’s based entirely on your own headcanon.

Stop saying that I'm pushing narrative based on my "headcanon". I don't even know the canon of Umineko, as I've already said, repeatedly. Blame the lack of scans instead of me, since as I've already said, all of my arguments are based on scans provided in Umineko CRT.

The way a human becomes a witch — or a witch becomes a great witch — is through higher entities that allow you to ascend to that level, just like what happened with Yasuda when she became a witch.

You’re being pretty dishonest by ignoring how the work itself explicitly compares the gap between the witches’ domain and the human domain with the gap between the witches’ domain and the domain of the great witches.

Never seen that scan before, so once again, blame the lack of scans provided. If that scan was provided in the original thread, it would help a lot.

If you accept that the first gap is 1-A, then you’re automatically conceding that the second is High 1-A.

The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise with scans.

You're being unnecessarily aggressive. I never disagreed that the second gap can't be High 1-A, especially if it's the same as the first gap. What I'm questioning is whether the second gap is the same as the first gap.

Also, please provide a scan of a Witch becoming a Great Witch with the help of a Great Witch. That would cement the fact that the first and second gap is the same.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There’s literally no reason (aside from unreasonable skepticism toward blatant scans) not to give those characters a key.

Giving a bunch of characters a High 1-A key for one scene usually isn't justified unless they're actively doing stuff with it.

The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise with scans.

While I will preeminently state that this will probably make you angry at me, I would recommend that you chill out a bit. You're becoming progressively more hostile to questions and disagreements and that never ends well, especially when involving Tier 1 threads. If you don't calm down this can easily end up as a reportable thing based on my previous experience.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

For the thread I think Featherine and Beatrice (assuming she becomes her equal) are fine at High 1-A. I'm iffy on the Sea of Oblivion and the Library being High 1-A, but is vaguely understand why they'd be up there.

If you have questions, you can ask me.

If you think Featherine and Beatrice are High 1-A with the scans presented in the thread, then necessarily the CoB and the DoO are also High 1-A, because as I said, those statements are regarding that existential level.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

While I will preeminently state that this will probably make you angry at me, I would recommend that you chill out a bit. You're becoming progressively more hostile to questions and disagreements and that never ends well, especially when involving Tier 1 threads.

I don’t think saying that my opponent needs to back up his claim with scans is being aggressive. It’s just that I find it a bit frustrating how some messages completely ignore parts of what is already been established in the thread — I don’t have anything against anyone. I’m sure you can understand where I’m coming from.

But alright, I guess. I’m gonna take a break.

There are currently 4 staff votes in favor. Thank you for your time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I’m sure you can understand where I’m coming from.

I get it and nothing you're doing is rule breaking or anything. I've just seen this stuff get out of hand before and wanted to caution you against going down that path. Mostly since it usually hangs up the CRT with other stuff.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I still don't known why Featherine being High 1-A is something controversial. Like, the most important scans are a 1:1 description of the tier High 1-A, literally. I dare to say this is the most blatantly, explicity example of a H1-A character on this new tiering system to this day and that if Umineko came out recently instead of more than 15 years ago, people would say that Ryushiki is actually wanking his own verse to be strong on this website.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I never understood the context of this scan clearly, since i don't know how the story goes. Is the Featherine talking in the scan, Featherine Augustus Aurora who resides in City of Books or True Form Featherine? (Sorry if all these are actually the same Featherine).

Even then, there's two possible context for the scans above:
1. Both Featherine Augustus Aurora and Tohya Hachijo are both Pieces used to interact with lower layers of Witch Domain and Human Domain.
2. She is neither Featherine Augustus Aurora nor Tohya Hachijo. Neither inhabitants of Witch Domain nor Human Domain (neither 1-A nor non 1-A).

The point of this scan is that Featherine is saying that both her Witch Form and Human Form are as trivial as two roles played by the same actor. And by that, she's saying that the Featherine, the same who is explicity stated to have power over the entire 1-A+ Witch Domain and views it as a tale/story is just as trivial as fiction to the real FAA who resides in a higher realm (Realm of the Gods).

Sorry, but how can this be just higher into 1-A+? All the witches who talked about her stated she's something beyond their reach, something who exists in a higher and untouchable realm. Those same witches have the power to ascend infinitly through the Witch Domain and still says that FAA is a being completely beyond their levels.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Also, please provide a scan of a Witch becoming a Great Witch with the help of a Great Witch. That would cement the fact that the first and second gap is the same.

Ange became a great witch the moment featherine invited her to her study, which pretty much all of the other characters COB manifestations come from.

This is such a useless hill to die on, especially with the explicit statement we have.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

I get it and nothing you're doing is rule breaking or anything. I've just seen this stuff get out of hand before and wanted to caution you against going down that path. Mostly since it usually hangs up the CRT with other stuff.

Yeah, you are completely right, but I understand Excelsis frustration because what is being adressed here about Featherine were already discussed one whole year ago. Literally, there's not a single new point that's not been talked about one year before. This makes the thread something extremely slow and boring for everyone involved.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I agree with Featherine being High 1-A.

Neutral for others.

High 1-A human meta is back lmao

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Qawsedf234 here. High 1-A true form Featherine seems fine, but not for all of the other characters, especially if Ultima has a history of being firmly opposed to exactly this type of reasoning.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

but not for all of the other characters, especially if Ultima has a history of being firmly opposed to exactly this type of reasoning.

For what reason?

I have nothing against Ultima, but I’ve already debunked his arguments about the CoB not being High 1-A.

Like, I get that having so many characters at High 1-A might feel unnatural — but that’s just how the verse’s cosmology functions.

So I’d really appreciate some concrete reasoning behind that stance.

Qawsedf234 only expressed some superficial doubts about the idea, but as far as I understand, he didn’t see anything wrong with the scaling itself.

I'm not against High 1-A in principle

For the thread I think Featherine and Beatrice (assuming she becomes her equal) are fine at High 1-A for being R>F to other R>Fs. I'm iffy on the Sea of Oblivion and the Library being High 1-A, but if they are also upgraded I vaguely understand why they'd be up there.

 

[Antvasima]

Because the reasoning for scaling the library to High 1-A seems too vaguely proven to me, not as a part of an entirely separate unreachable hierarchy from the 1-A characters.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

To make it easier to keep track of everything, let’s go over the most important points:

Ultima’s argument is that — even though Umineko’s cosmology contains a description that matches the High 1-A tier 1:1 — it supposedly functions under a single framework, and therefore, nothing within its hierarchy can be considered High 1-A.

That’s something I’ve already refuted in this message, where I explained why that argument makes no sense at all. It’s an oversimplification that completely undermines the message the series is trying to convey about the evolution toward Creatorhood:

This argument is extremely weak for multiple reasons, and like I mentioned earlier, it’s an overly simplified way of understanding the cosmology. But I guess it has to be tackled now to avoid the thread getting closed in four months like the last one.

For starters, that stance is based on a clear case of cherry-picking and a hasty generalization — because it’s drawing the conclusion that everything operates under the same conceptual framework based on literally one decontextualized line of dialogue, while ignoring the broader context and all the information we have about the evolutionary path.

Lambdadelta, in her memoirs, explains quite clearly that the ultimate goal of 07th Expansion’s cosmological journey is to reach a state of pure nothingness, free from all metaphysical restrictions — in other words, to achieve absolute free will, to no longer be limited by anything: to become, essentially, one with God (apotheosis)

You say “as you still have restrictions, you're still a part of the Witch Domain,” but it’s obvious that everything short of Creatorhood is subject to “restrictions” — precisely because Creatorhood represents absolute omnipotence within this fictional universe. To pretend that this fact alone proves that everything along the journey belongs to a single framework is, quite frankly, absurd. By that logic, we’d have to downgrade literally any fictional verse that includes an omnipotent absolute being/state in its cosmology, because everything below that being would inherently have restrictions, and therefore, by this same reasoning, the entire cosmology would be one single framework aimed at evolving into God.

Sounds incredibly stupid, doesn’t it?

The important point here is that literally ANY cosmology can be represented as a hierarchical succession of planes.

Let’s use DC Comics as an example to explain this point, though it could really be any tier 0 verse.

In DC, the Orrery of Worlds, the Bleedspace, Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, among others, appear on Morrison’s Multiversity map as a hierarchical chain leading to the Overvoid, which is the void lacking all narratives.
Does that mean all these planes share a single ontological framework?

Obviously not; it’s a narrative simplification meant to convey a global view of the cosmology.

This is exactly the same case. Lambdadelta states that all beings on the evolutionary path can be generalized as occupying a specific position between the two poles of being carried by fate and create fate, but that’s nothing more than a simplification meant to explain how humans are beings with infinite limitations inherent to their existence, and that the Creator is an entity that is beneath nothing, while witches are those who journey toward that nothingness.

It’s currently accepted on the wiki that the world of witches trivializes the human world via an R>F relation, qualifying as 1-A. Meanwhile, Featherine’s world is directly and blatantly said to trivialize the world of witches in the same way that the witches’ world trivializes the human world — which is literally a 1:1 description of High 1-A:

“Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system.”

Based on the very logic already accepted for the verse, how is it possible that Featherine’s world shares a conceptual framework with the witches’ world, if it transcends it in the exact same way a 1-A realm transcends all lower tiers? Isn’t that a direct contradiction of that idea?

That entire argument falls apart on its very basis.

In this message, I went into further detail, explaining how the world of the great witches must necessarily operate under a different framework from the conventional witches’ world — and so far, I haven’t received any response from the opposing side beyond a reply to something the scans directly state:

I can elaborate on this in more detail, since I understand the doubts around it.

The statement that Featherine perceives the witches’ realm as a game board doesn’t refer to her true form — it directly alludes to her manifestation in her study (the one that we actually see writing the story in the EP8 of the manga), which shares the same "framework" as the City of Books.

Together, these and other higher planes make up what’s known as the “world of the great witches,” which lies beyond all the typical witch Territories like the ones seen in Episode 7.

When Ange accesses the City of Books through an invitation (i.e., a summoning), she discovers (through Erika) that the great witches of the Senate consider everything that’s happened up until that point (Beatrice’s catbox, Bernkastel, and basically all that “lower domain”) so insignificant that it doesn’t even amount to a single book within the City of Books.

That statement isn’t a standalone — Umineko Saku reinforces this through the Ange acting as a piece on Featherine’s board, who confirms that the entire witches’ world is perceived by Featherine (Great Witch of the Senate) as text written on a mere sheet of paper (using the background of the CoB).

And we know it’s referring to her manifestation because the same statement refers to the great witches of the CoB, and Ryukishi07 himself has said that Featherine’s manifestation exists in a collaborative world shared with other witches of that level [ 3rd scan of the Imgur]. That can’t be Featherine’s true form — because Featherine True Form is verbatim described as the highest goddess of existence [Excelsis Dea], dwelling in a plane where she’s on the verge of losing her identity and dissolving, making her a one-of-a-kind case and the reason she’s a legendary witch.

Alright then…

The underlying reason of the tier is that Territories operate on the basis of a dialectical ground from which worlds are created. For example, Beatrice’s catbox admits as a valid current world any theory expressible through language regarding the events on Rokkenjima.

This catbox is entirely disconnected from the mortal plane by a 1-A gap, as it not only contains every possible combination of human language usable to approach the mystery, but also because the world of the gods (the witches) operates using a transcendental language that surpasses the entire human framework. In other words, it’s impossible to express in human language the meaning of a phrase written in the language of the gods, no matter how many possible combinations are attempted.

The plane where both Featherine’s study and the City of Books (CoB) exist is so absurdly superior that even to formulate the possibilities of a board/fragment/book, it requires a language only great witches can comprehend. This language is described as hyperdense from the perspective of a being like Meta Ange.

That’s precisely why the City of Books functions as the Akashic record of the witches’ world, capable of storing all possible worlds in the form of books. It represents the metafictional version of the Library of Time, which acts as the Akashic record of the human world.

So in summary: the City of Books completely transcends the conventional framework of the witches’ world, and it’s from that plane that the High 1-A level begins.

Regarding your question about why so many characters manage to manifest at that level — the reason is that all of them are emanations of the heart / golden essence of Ange Beatrice, who is one of the highest-level entities in the entire verse, having reached the level of a true Golden Witch. Therefore, they necessarily scale to High 1-A as well.

As for their true forms, Featherine and the Creator María occupy higher layers of High 1-A, respectively. For simplicity, let’s say the first and second layer within High 1-A — since I plan to make an extremely detailed post about this in the future, and I think defining it right now is unnecessary.

Qawsedf234 mentioned that Ultima previously opposed a Dungeons and Dragons upgrade, but that could very well be a false equivalence — because no reasoning has been given as to why both cases are supposedly the same. In fact, I’m fairly certain that upgrade was denied based on the “single framework” argument (just a guess, because I don't know what thread is that), which I’ve already debunked above.

Lastly, the admin states agreement with Featherine being High 1-A based on an R > F over another R > F, and I’ve already explained how that dialogue refers to Featherine’s manifestation in her study.

For the thread I think Featherine and Beatrice (assuming she becomes her equal) are fine at High 1-A for being R>F to other R>Fs.

So essentially, Qawsedf234 agrees with my argumentation, but as he himself said, he has some doubts — which I’ve already offered to address. So you can ask too.

I’m not entirely sure what exactly you’re agreeing with, Ant.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Because the reasoning for scaling the library to High 1-A seems too vaguely proven to me, not as a part of an entirely separate unreachable hierarchy from the 1-A characters

You should explain why it’s “vague.” I don’t think it’s vague at all. In fact, you’re basically contradicting yourself by accepting that Featherine is High 1-A via those statements, but not accepting the CoB as High 1-A — when I’ve already explained how those very statements are referring to the world of the great witches.

 

[Antvasima]

Do you think that the above reasoning seems reliable, @Qawsedf234 ?

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Somebody could please open Featherine's profile? So that the changes can be applied. This will set half of the thread concluded.

Featherine Augustus Aurora

Featherine Augustus Aurora (フェザリーヌ アウグストゥス アウローラ, Fezarīnu Augusutusu Aurōra?) is the witch form of Tohya Hachijo, and the Witch of Theatergoing, Drama and Spectating, an Endless Witch. She appears in the sixth, seventh, and eighth games; Dawn of the Golden Witch, Requiem of the Golden Witch...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Qawsedf234 here. High 1-A true form Featherine seems fine, but not for all of the other characters, especially if Ultima has a history of being firmly opposed to exactly this type of reasoning.

From my understanding of what's being spoken about here (it's a bit confusing ngl), Ange is the only one who reached High 1-A when Featherine invited her to her study but she brought everyone with her (although I remember Battler raised his territory to encompass the CoB might be wrong).

I do think that based on the evidence the CoB is in the realm of Featherine's board referred to in the scans and the CoB are on the same level, so I don't really see how Featherine can be High 1-A without Ange being High 1-A and Anges manifested memories would be high 1-A by the nature of our tiering system.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that I am fine with that statistic then, but I would prefer to verify with Qawsedf234 first, as he is more knowledgeable regarding higher tiers in our system.

 

[Livinaa]

Ange became a great witch the moment featherine invited her to her study, which pretty much all of the other characters COB manifestations come from.

This is such a useless hill to die on, especially with the explicit statement we have.

You knowing it doesn't mean others know about it. If you don't provide the scans, how are others supposed to know? OP should've just provided all important scans, instead of waiting for others to ask, especially in a 1-A/High 1-A CRT. Pretty sure Ultima also disagreed with High 1-A because the scans provided in the original thread is lacking and all vague without supporting scans such as the gap between great witch and witch and the transcendental languages between human, witch, and great witch.

Anyways, i agree with High 1-A, but the reasoning should be the transcendental language between Great Witch and Witch. R>F over another R>F is still R>F (1-A gap).

Neutral on which characters scale to Great Witch's language besides Featherine.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

R>F over another R>F is still R>F (1-A gap).

Not wrong but I think what is being referred as R>F over R>F is this stuff:

"Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system"

Although yeah, it could definitely be worded better.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay. I suppose that I am fine with that statistic then, but I would prefer to verify with Qawsedf234 first, as he is more knowledgeable regarding higher tiers in our system.

My comment was mostly to express what I know about similar High 1-A stuff. I even went over what I originally thought was the main hangup regarding the tiering:

For the thread the big issue i see is that ladder metaphor which would dismiss them as being in separate hierarchies, but the same hierarchy at different levels. However, that same ladder example includes baseline humans so its not the best evidence either for dismissal. As stated earlier its more defining the start and end of the overall power structure (so 10-B to 0) rather than a single hierarchy in of itself.

Which is what was originally used to dismiss the High 1-A rating.

but not for all of the other characters

The reason why I'm unsure about the other getting a High 1-A rating isn't because they wouldn't qualify, its just that they don't do anything going by the scans presented. They're High 1-A still but the only appear for that event and then fade away. The key for High 1-A would only exist for power scaling reasons rather than anything, which is why I'm not sure if they should be included; the rating itself is perfectly valid.

but I would prefer to verify with Qawsedf234 first

I'm fine with the High 1-A stuff unless I'm misunderstanding something important. High 1-A is supposed to be an independent hierarchy that sits above a 1-A hierarchy, which is why no amount of 1-A layers can ever reach High 1-A, as they exist in different systems.

I think the OP has proven that Great Witches, or at least what Featherine is called, counts as that separate higher hierarchy for a High 1-A rating.