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Dragon Ball: Soul Manipulation Part 2

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Damage3245 said:
I don't agree, because Vegeta's body has a halo there. Simply being given a body didn't bring him back to life. He's still in a state of dead, and if you die twice in DB then you're gone for good.
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Damage I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you sure you read the justification correctly? I feel like you are repeating what's already been said. We already know dying twice means you're dead for good. I've outlined this already, I also put why having a body doesn't matter. As kid buu would still be destroying the soul. Not only is there more nuance to dead bodies of dead souls. What you're asking is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he has a body. Goku expressed concern. And you have to ask yourself why. We already know souls get reconstructed when they die, or healed when they get to the afterlife. This also makes sense since yemma had to fight raditz into submission and send him to hell. Which requires damaging the soul on. So this means it would also have to heal. Unless you think the soul Resurrects just damaged or something which you would have to prove. Goku's concern is that since vegeta is already dead, his soul would also be dead dead, not have that protection. And he also wouldn't be in limbo anymore, he'd be gone from all worlds, his soul unable to be revived or regenerated this time. Which is also just further proof how beings in dragon ball can affect souls.
 
TiltedFN said:
Damage I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you sure you read the justification correctly? I feel like you are repeating what's already been said. We already know dying twice means you're dead for good. I've outlined this already, I also put why having a body doesn't matter. As kid buu would still be destroying the soul. Not only is there more nuance to dead bodies of dead souls. What you're asking is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he has a body. Goku expressed concern. And you have to ask yourself why. We already know souls get reconstructed when they die, or healed when they get to the afterlife. This also makes sense since yemma had to fight raditz into submission and send him to hell. Which requires damaging the soul on. So this means it would also have to heal. Unless you think the soul Resurrects just damaged or something which you would have to prove. Goku's concern is that since vegeta is already dead, his soul would also be dead dead, not have that protection. And he also wouldn't be in limbo anymore, he'd be gone from all worlds, his soul unable to be revived or regenerated this time. Which is also just further proof how beings in dragon ball can affect souls.
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Sorry, but I don't understand how you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'll step back for a moment and see if any other staff members want to chime in or if they get what I'm saying.
 
Damage3245 said:
Sorry, but I don't understand how you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'll step back for a moment and see if any other staff members want to chime in or if they get what I'm saying.
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Okay then. Well every other argument still needs to be addressed, that wasn't the only one. As you guys have failed to do so or even acknowledge some of them far as I can see. Not just you, but also maverick. He totally misinterpreted my argument, and then left. No response since I replied to him.
 
The Granolah clone example is probably the most blatant showing of soul damage. Since it’s just Gas being able to damage the original Granolah by harming the clones, as they share the same divided ki/spirit

I’m neutral on the Buu Saga Vegeta example but not for reasons said before
 
TiltedFN said:
Okay then. Well every other argument still needs to be addressed, that wasn't the only one. As you guys have failed to do so or even acknowledge some of them far as I can see. Not just you, but also maverick. He totally misinterpreted my argument, and then left. No response since I replied to him.
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Ok now I totally get why people at Otherworld warned me about vsbw staffs
 
MrTayman616 said:
That's why i disagreed before(not really). So i don't think you'd want to rely on his explanation.
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But you didn't counter his explanation with proof like you were asked. In order for your previous interpretation to work, it needs a substantial amount of evidence as opposed to ours. Which again, you simply don't have. That makes it baseless.
 
TiltedFN said:
But you didn't counter his explanation with proof like you asked. In order for your previous interpretation to work, it needs a substantial amount of evidence as opposed to ours. Which again, you simply don't have. That makes it baseless.
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What he asked proof for, itself is meaningless. (At least i didn't see it)
 
TiltedFN said:
That's because the proof you needed doesn't exist. You can't see something that isn't there. Which means you have nothing to stand on in terms of the validity for your argument.
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Do Ki manipulation change basic applications? Yes. That's why teleportation exist. That's why cloning exist. The entire series, almost any Ki technique shows it. Yet he asked me for proof or that it would be otherwise.

Basic applications doesn't hold the ability of special applications. Yet he asked proof, existence of any technique is proof. no?

Isn't it what he asked proof of? (unless i misunderstand him, sry then)
or you provide extensive proof that Ki can be manipulated to change its fundamental qualities themselves beyond just regular Ki manipulation. As far as I'm concerned this is entirely unprecedented in the verse.
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MrTayman616 said:
Do Ki manipulation change basic applications? Yes. That's why teleportation exist. That's why cloning exist. The entire series, almost any Ki technique shows it. Yet he asked me for proof or that it would be otherwise.

Basic applications doesn't hold the ability of special applications. Yet he asked proof, existence of any technique is proof. no?

Isn't it what he asked proof of?
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See you missed the point of the argument. Ki can already affect the soul to some extent, and then those specific applications are just an extension of what ki already does, which is already evident as you see in my justification for this thread and last thread. It was never claimed basic ki holds the special applications of other techniques like sealing, or devilmite beam, soul damage would just be basic stuff, less complex than the other techniques, just like other techniques go beyond just regular damage. Again, misinterpreting the argument. Our argument is significantly stronger, since ki is spirit/soul. Teleportation, cloning, splitting, are all things that can be extended from basic ki manipulation, which ALREADY manipulates the soul lmao. You don't realize this just strengthens our argument already, along with the other examples I already gave, which have not been addressed. You responded with "Or, or... Some ki applications can affect soul like that". But again, this was already pointed out to you, that you lack the proof required for this argument, while we on the other hand, do for ours. And it would be much more reasonable. Basic logic itself dictates that.

Edit: Which sounds more reasonable with what the verse entails: Ki just randomly changing its properties to manipulate the soul. Or, ki ALREADY doing that, and characters developing more specific, complex techniques as an extension to what it already does. The answer is pretty clear in my opinion. You simply lack the proof.
 
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MrTayman616 said:
Do Ki manipulation change basic applications? Yes. That's why teleportation exist. That's why cloning exist. The entire series, almost any Ki technique shows it. Yet he asked me for proof or that it would be otherwise.

Basic applications doesn't hold the ability of special applications. Yet he asked proof, existence of any technique is proof. no?

Isn't it what he asked proof of? (unless i misunderstand him, sry then)
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You misunderstood entirely. The onus of proving that God Ki (at least) can have its properties changed fundamentally just from a technique is completely unprecedented. That is the argument that hasn't been countered not because you're unable to, but because a counter to it doesn't exist. No one's arguing that basic Ki manip now means soul sealing/erasure/destruction, at least that wasn't what I argued for.
 
Nah, I don't wanna do the emotional labor of convincing him. He's generally.... unreceptive to anything once he's made up his mind, I mean no offense obviously.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Wasn't that rejected? It looks like there are 3 who disagree with the idea and 1 who is neutral
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I mean Mav said they specifically disagree with Hakai and normal ki sharing the same soul-destroying properties. KingTempest agreed with Mav; however, luckily for them the OP isn’t arguing that. The thing they disagreed with isn’t even a proposal for the OP, so there’s not any disagreement to the thread. I don’t even think it’s worth asking them to reevaluate, they specified that they disagree (with something we didn’t argue), and everything’s fine. We can simply get staff who actually comment about the OP to evaluate (though I don’t really mind if they reevaluate, but it’s not worth bothering to get them to).
 
Robo432343 said:
hello?????
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gl8wnzi.jpeg
 
MeiouHades said:
It doesn't, because that ability seems specific to them only, and something they can also lose through the change of heart as demonstrated by Piccolo Jr when he killed Raditz and Goku. Another problem with this argument would be that, if it was just "evil" that caused this (which the Raditz example could be interpreted as), then this should happen with every single villain in Dragon Ball. Frieza, Cell, Buu, they're all evil beyond redemption but it doesn't, which implies that it's a demon clansmen-specific ability aka an exception to the rule, the only exception in fact. The fact that souls in the Otherworld are 'reconstructed' has no bearing on a clan-specific ability to trap souls.
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i have a small problem
Even if Demon Clan soul-trapping is a unique ability doesn't it just prove that ki can kill without affecting the soul? Piccolo killed Goku but his soul was still intact right? Goku, Vegeta, Cell etc still have memories even after death...that would mean their soul was not damaged when they died. We wouldn't have seem them intact in the afterlife
for every major character killed by a ki blast their souls go to the other world and if regular ki damaged souls, we wouldn’t see this pattern so often
Also doesn't the fact that soul-damaging attacks like Hakai being rare and feared prove that soul interaction is not the default for ki?
 
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Robo432343 said:
i have a small problem
Even if Demon Clan soul-trapping is a unique ability doesn't it just prove that ki can kill without affecting the soul? Piccolo killed Goku but his soul was still intact right? Goku, Vegeta, Cell etc still have memories even after death...that would mean their soul was not damaged when they died
for every major character killed by a ki blast their souls go to the other world and if regular ki damaged souls, we wouldn’t see this pattern so often
Also doesn't the fact that soul-damaging attacks like Hakai are rare and feared prove that soul interaction is not the default for ki?
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I'm pretty sure Hakai isn't feared for that reason alone.

It's the only form of energy that can evaporate anything, completely erasing it from existence... and also, as far as I know, it's the only form of energy that can affect Acausality in any way, although gods in general have that ability according to the wiki
 
Robo432343 said:
i have a small problem
Even if Demon Clan soul-trapping is a unique ability doesn't it just prove that ki can kill without affecting the soul?
Click to expand...
Um no? That literally means they ARE affecting the soul lmao. That is why they do not go to the afterlife.
Robo432343 said:
Piccolo killed Goku but his soul was still intact right?
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It was stated piccolo lost the evil in his heart by kami. So his soul was restored in otherworld.
Robo432343 said:
Goku, Vegeta, Cell etc still have memories even after death...that would mean their soul was not damaged when they died
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Having memories=soul isn't damaged? Based off of what? I'm honestly not even sure how you are correlating these two things at all lol. The soul and mind are intact until cleansed and sent to hell to reincarnate, or to heaven.
Robo432343 said:
for every major character killed by a ki blast their souls go to the other world and if regular ki damaged souls, we wouldn’t see this pattern so often
Also doesn't the fact that soul-damaging attacks like Hakai being rare and feared prove that soul interaction is not the default for ki?
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't we see this pattern? The point of otherworld is that souls are healed and restored regularly until its time for judgement. You forget that hakai's main ability isn't just interacting with the soul. It's erasing it entirely, turning something to nothing. Which is one of those extensions from what ki has already been shown to do so many times.
 
TiltedFN said:
Um no? That literally means they ARE affecting the soul lmao. That is why they do not go to the afterlife.
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Okay but the fact that the soul is preserved and conscious mean that there was no soul damage?
TiltedFN said:
It was stated piccolo lost the evil in his heart by kami. So his soul was restored in otherworld.
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Is there a scene that says the soul is damaged on death and then restored in the otherworld?
TiltedFN said:
Having memories=soul isn't damaged? Based off of what? I'm honestly not even sure how you are correlating these two things at all lol. The soul and mind are intact until cleansed and sent to hell to reincarnate, or to heaven.
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Based on when we see Goku having his memories in the other world, when we see King Kai teaching martial arts to souls which means they obviously have some sort of cognitive function
And we see Frieza was conscious and tortured by the passage of time in his cocoon. Im saying if the soul can have memories, think and interact when it leaves the body how is that a damaged soul? We see goku talk to king kai, learns techniques and uses ki. Heck we see King Kai and others who exist entirely as souls function perfectly. If their souls were damaged then we'd see a terrible effect but that stuff never happens..Why is there no case that a soul is visibly ****** after a normal ki death

Why wouldn't we see this pattern? The point of otherworld is that souls are healed and restored regularly until its time for judgement. You forget that hakai's main ability isn't just interacting with the soul. It's erasing it entirely, turning something to nothing. Which is one of those extensions from what ki has already been shown to do so many times.
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uh yeah Hakai is feared because it erases souls, it erases literally everything which is something no ki attack has ever done
If soul destruction is such a normal thing for Ki, Hakai would literally not be unique at all???
We would see soul damage happen constantly but we don't
 
Robo432343 said:
Okay but the fact that the soul is preserved and conscious mean that there was no soul damage?
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Have you just ignored every single point that has been made? The soul among arriving to the afterlife is literally restored. So of course there isn't damage you see when you are there lmao.
Robo432343 said:
Is there a scene that says the soul is damaged on death and then restored in the otherworld?
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This crt is literally for adding soul damage lmao. Which is in my justification. That is the entire point of what we are arguing. And you haven't accurately countered or addressed any of the claims. Also I did give an example earlier. When king yemma actually fought and beat raditz in fight. Which would cause damage to the soul. And you don't reincarnate with that retained damage. If you do think that, you'd have to prove it. Which further strengthens my point of souls healing/being restored in the afterlife. Which is evident with frieza anyway.
Robo432343 said:
Based on when we see Goku having his memories in the other world, when we see King Kai teaching martial arts to souls which means they obviously have some sort of cognitive function
And we see Frieza was conscious and tortured by the passage of time in his cocoon. Im saying if the soul can have memories and think when it leaves the body how is that a damaged soul? We see goku talk to king kai, learns techniques and uses ki. Heck we see King Kai and others who exist entirely as souls function perfectly. If their souls were damaged then we'd see a terrible effect but that stuff never happens
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What are you even arguing?? Did you forget I'm literally the one that made the last crt? Which showed that souls still have a consciousness? They can literally talk, think, rebel. That is the nature of souls. How in any way does this mean soul damage doesn't exist? That is YOUR clam, you need to prove it. What does frieza experiencing the passage of time have to do with ANYTHING? I swear it's like you're just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Robo432343 said:
uh yeah Hakai is feared because it erases souls, it erases literally everything which is something no ki attack has ever done
If soul destruction is such a normal thing for Ki, Hakai would literally not be unique at all???
We would see soul damage happen constantly but we don't
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Also, tell me where it's claimed that normal ki, or just any ki attack does the same function as hakai. Erasing =/= Damaging. How does that not make hakai unique? It turns something into nothing lmfao, an extension of what ki does already. Like we have been arguing, ki does not erase souls like hakai does. But it does damage the soul. And our interpretation would be much stronger than..whatever yours is. Since ki is derived from the spirit.
 
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