Bro, you're comparing a kid who oneshotted a HE with a guy who can fight entire armies of people who can beat ALEPHs.project moon universe literally use the light as their concept of power, i wonder why its still not accepted. Shin and Mang literally boost their power into unbelieveable degree bruhroland aint surviving 7 mang attack from demian
Well the admins who are knowledgeable regarding UES seem to be too busy to look at this(or are just not interested in general), and the only admin who is a Project Moon supporter seems to be busy with other things as well.project moon universe literally use the light as their concept of power, i wonder why its still not accepted. Shin and Mang literally boost their power into unbelieveable degree bruh
roland cant even manifest mang and vergillius only can manifest 3 mang, color fixers get soloed by demian
1. Just because they haven't showcased the ability to use it doesn't mean they can't.roland cant even manifest mang and vergillius only can manifest 3 mang, color fixers get soloed by demian
demian use the air or easily swing his hand to cut kromer with 7 mangs, can any color fixers do that
Gebura can solo ALEPHs. Can Demian do that?
What they scale to is an attack that utilizes a pocket dimension to hit the target/s , as I said in the OP pocket dimension normally can't be scaled to physicals as most of them aren't used offensively,
I saw the attack, I do not see any evidence that Argalia hits them with the force of the size of the dimension. He "creates a dimensions" (we still are not sure how real this is meant to be), then there is a small explosion and the dimension disappears. I do not see how this scales to anyone physically. Not to mention how completely it out scales every single other attack in the verse.
The justification for this rating is explained here. Basically the Reverberation Ensemble in the final fight are in a unique state referred to as the "Apex" by Carmen and are significantly boosted by The Light due to being in the epicenter of the second shining which justifies the power jump. Also the only ones who scale to this are aside from Argalia's fellow Ensemble members are the Librarians who's bodies are made of Light, and thus would also be getting a significant boost as well.
Ok and I am saying that I massively disagree with the idea that he is hitting with 4-A power in that attack.
I absolutly hate the idea of 4A Pmoon as well but
1. The dimension being real or not does not affect my thoughts on the feat. I just do not see the evidence that he hits them with 4A force. We see the dimension appear, then we see the small explosion as it disappears. Its not like he forces all the stars to smash into the opponent or we see the entire dimension explode as the attack itself. You can heavily slow the video down. In the starry space there is a localized explosion where the Fixers are and then the dimension disappears. If you want to give him 4-A creation, sure even if I do still find it iffy. But 4-A overall stats? I do not agree with that.
have there been any relevant arguments or post to take in mind or is it fine to evaluate off the OP alone@Mr._Propeller_Hat @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Catzlaflame @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Reiner04 @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
Are any of you willing to help evaluate the first post of this thread please?
its fine to evaluate off the OP alone, we don't have much opposes in this thread
here if you need some post
NPES works but im not so sure for full UES since there was only the one direct example of the chick falling unconscious ahen her distortion (light) was absorbed and never waking up until it was returned which does in a way technically show a drop in power but just for me personally isn't as strong of evidence as I'd like so I'll for now just say Agreed for Non-Physical Energy System, Neutral maybe leaning agree on full UeSSeeing how well my other CRT is doing(as in not well at all (-_-) ) I decided to try another one., which is that the Light is a Universal Energy System. But first, a short summary for the relevant topics.
What is the Light?
The only direct explanation I could find is in the Floor of Natural Sciences Episode 2 where this was said:
Roland: "Everyone’s been talking about that “light” thing. What exactly is it about?"
Tipereth: "You’ve heard about Lobotomy Corporation’s Singularity, right?"
Roland: "Well, yeah, kinda. Technology that physically manifests the mind, was it?"
Tipereth: "That’s right. Those manifestations can also be dissolved back into an indefinite form and seeped into people’s minds."
Roland: "Hmm, I guess that makes sense."
Tipereth: "Lobotomy Corp. gathered the light over a long time to cure the ill minds of the City’s denizens.
Ayin(the L Corp head) also had this to say:
"Our mission is to simply seed the people's hearts. Every single person has their own Light. In the Light, they create their own stories, and lay the roots of their existence in it. We are merely there to sow the seeds, it is up to the people to bloom it in their own ways."
The Light is essentially the final product of L Corp.'s Singularity(which physically manifests the human mind), which was meant to act as the "cure" by imbuing it into every person in The City. Depending on one's emotional state it can allow one to either manifest E.G.O. or undergo the Distortion Phenomenon, both of which can grant one great power. After the second shining of the Light by Angela one can also use Shin, which allows one to enhance one's attacks by striking more with willpower than with the body.
The different ways to use the Light:
There are 3 ways for one to manifest the Light: E.G.O.., Shin, and Distortion.
Shin- this is the most recent method of using the Light which was discovered by Iori. This allows one to channel a small amount of Light(which take the form of rings) to enhance one's attacks.
E.G.O- this is a type of personalized equipment manifested from an individual's mind. The most common type of E.G,O, that one can wield in the verse are extracted and borrowed from beings known as Abnormalities(which are entities manifested from the human mind). These come with with the risk of being taken over by the equipment. Then there is personalized E.G,O,(or Effloresced E.G.O as Limbus Company calls it) which is manifested from one's own mind. These are shown to be the safest option to use as there is no risk of the equipment overriding the user, however in order to obtain one an individual has to overcome their emotional turmoil.(Here's a list of Abnormality E.G.O's from Lobotomy Corporation and Limbus Company). Here are some examples of personal E.G.O
Distortion- when one experiences great emotional instability and is unable to overcome it they instead turn into Distortions, which grants them powers from the Light and a form that reflects their overwhelming negative emotions.
Now that that's out of the way here are main arguments for the Universal Energy System:
Mind over Matter/ The Power of Emotions:
Floor of Technological Sciences Episode 3:
Yesod: "Lobotomy Corporation’s Singularity was physically manifesting the human mind, an abstract concept.
Converting human emotions to physical energy, in the same vein as the Library.
Human emotions can be interpreted as a complex mass.
That mass is built up through experiences. When emotions are heightened enough, a page will be chosen. A spot is reserved for a person’s book; it is a
comprehensive manifestation of their ego.
As the battle becomes fiercer and the combatants get agitated, the egos will grow intense and allow their mental states to be physically expressed."
Wedge Office, Post Battle:
Angela: " E,G.O.
This appears to be E.G.O
Roland: "E.G.O? You mean the ego? As in someone's consciousness?
Angela: It's a silly wordplay. They're essentially the same thing.
The shell of one's ego. It's a physical manifestation of the mind
Floor of Religion Episode 3:
Is that why you employ Abnormalities and E.G.O as well?
You direct the librarians to put on the shells of others’ egos in order to amplify their unstable emotional state even further.
Floor of Natural Sciences Episode 5:
Tiphereth: "…It looks like Roland’s mind resonated with this place.
The emotions were amplified from interactions with the Patron Librarian of each floor and their subject matter.
That might be why he got ruffled over small things and snapped… It’s only a guess, though."
Angela: "That sounds like a plausible explanation. I unwillingly exposed disorderly sides of myself a few times as well because of that."
Floor of History Episode 5:
Malkuth: "Angela is resonating with the Library.
The Library seems to be reacting to Angela’s mental state.
Roland: "Don’t tell me, is that monster… No, that looks more like a case of the Distortion…"
Malkuth: "That must be another side of Angela, manifested from her mind with the Library’s powers."
Liu Association Section 1, Post Battle:
Roland: "That form---It's oddly reminiscent.
Angela: "I'm not sure. I can't exactly tell if that was a Distortion or E.G.O.
Roland: " All I got to see for sure was horns and a snake's scale growing out of her---I guess.
Angela: "That was a transitional phase of some kind, I assume. It was likely a sign of gradual progress."
Reception of Xiao, Pre-Battle/Post Battle:
Roland: "---Did she manifest E.G.O. just now?"
Angela: "That certainly resembled E.G.O. although it was incomplete like Philip's"
Angela: "I've been thinking about the distinction between E.G.O. and the Distortion after watching Philip and Xiao.
The two were similar yet different. They clearly had some things in common, but the contrast was apparent as well.
Philip's mindset was flawed even in his awakening, however. He still had distrust in the back of his mind."
Roland: " I think Xiao had the same problem too. She didn't look like she had full conviction at the start. It took some time for her to make up her mind"
Angela "That's where the two differ. As far as I can see--"
Floor of Natural Sciences Episode 4:
Tiphereth: "As one’s mind is amplified, they undergo changes such as gaining new powers or transforming…
That’s what they call ‘The Distortion Phenomenon’"
Roland: "That means those monsters lie within everyone’s hearts, huh.
The world would be a mess in no time if people just started becoming Distortions left and right."
Tiphereth: "That won’t happen. A strong motivation is needed.
Look at Philip of the Dawn Office, who became the Crying Children, for instance. It took an intense heightening of his emotions for him to turn.
Distortion Detective Chapter 1:
Moses: "I can see the Distortion, and the Distortion can occur to anyone. I don’t exactly know who coined the term “Distortion” for the phenomenon, but people just started calling it that at some point. No one knows how it works, but the experience so far suggests that this phenomenon is a manifestation of strong emotional desires and explosive surges of feelings."
Unfortunately I don't have access to the Leviathan comic, though I was able to find the description for Shin(which I'm assuming is accurate):
Vergilius: "Right… It was something called ‘Shin’, if I remember her words correctly.
In that case, two Mang should be enough.
I deaden my breath, and clear my mind.
Rummaging through this bag of memories, I carefully fumble around the recollections and pick the heaviest and densest ones to fill my emptied head.
A group of children about half as tall as my waist gather around me.
Boxes wrapped in colorful papers, prepared for the kids. Snow-covered streets celebrating creation.
Emotions that may be trivial to others, but that are far more plentiful than I deserve.
A bouquet of such emotions that I could call absolution.
The bundle that resembled the sunlight scattered away, like beams fading behind dark clouds.
I remember every single moment of it.
I engraved all of them into my eyes.
The luna of hope I felt that day.
And the luna of despair I felt that day.
Two rings of light that resemble the glow of the moon wrap around my leg.
Carrying this nightly luster, the leg sorrowfully lands on the Docent as she climbs up the cliff, screaming.
“Kuh.”
With such lightness that I can barely hear the footfall, a sound so quiet that it’s masked by her last gasp.
In a most airy descent, the moonlit leg crushed the Docent’s miserably wounded chest.
It was neither the augmentation, blood pressure, nor the contraction of muscles.
The only thing that moved was the mind.
Kicking off with a recoil of the heart, I returned through the broken door presented by the hall.
So this is the power of the Light she mentioned…
The power of sin."
As show above, not only do the Light's powers have the same origin they also have the same requirements needed in order to manifest them.
Damage Types are Canon and Omnipresent:
Library of Ruina accurately depicts the Damage Types with its in-game effects, and thanks to Wonderlab and Distortion Detective the Damage Types are not just game mechanics, they're also acknowledged in the verse itself. With that said, at a glance Limbus Company, the latest entry in the Project Moon verse, has been the biggest divergence from Damage Types so far with it's Sin affinities. Fortunately thanks to the Distortion Detective, as well as some of the returning E.G.O's, a direct connection can be made between the Damage Types and the Sin affinity mechanic. Starting from the most to least obvious we have:
- Wrath- this one is definitely correlated to RED damage as evidenced by the following: 1) Moses can empower her Red breath by focusing on her malice as seen in Chapter 9, 2) YuRia can modify Moses' Red breath to allow her to use Fire Manipulation as seen in Chapter 10, 3) In Chapter 12 one of the masks that Ezra had when she was Distorting was a red mask of violence/malice which burnt Moses' hand when grabbed it, 4) The 4th Match Flame and Regret E.G.O's (both of which deal RED damage in Lobotomy Corporation) is tied to Wrath in Limbus company.
- Gloom- this one clearly correlates WHITE damage as evidenced by the following: 1) In chapter 17 Moses stated that water is a manifestation of depression/melancholy when she encountered Fei Lei's pocket dimension, and before entering it she shrouded herself with her White breath to protect herself from the mental corrosion, 2) In Chapter 18 Moses says "The gloom is typically distorted in the form of water", 3) In Limbus Company f an Abnormality, one of the entity's that don't have a Sanity Gauge, get's inflicted by the status effect "Sinking"(which has the effect of reducing one's Sanity Points) they instead take direct Gloom damage, 4) Solemn Lament(one of the abnormality E.G.O's that inflicts WHITE damage) is tied to Gloom in Limbus Company.
- Envy- I'd say this one is solidly correlated to BLACK damage as evidenced by the following: 1) In Chapter 33 Moses says this-"Neurosis: a spear of stress, harmful radiation, a prison that constricts oneself at the same time, a symptom that exacerbates the more one hurts others; the temperamental cerebral stimuli and irritation are given the physical form of electricity". She also describes the Human Thunderbolt as a violet being, 2) Moses' Violet breath gains the properties of electricity when she empowers it, as seen in this same chapter, 3)All of the electricity-based Abnormalities and E.G.O's(except for the two AEDD E.G.O's) are mainly focused on Envy.
- Sloth- this one is likely correlated to BLACK damage for the following reasons: 1) In Distortion Detective Chapter 12 one of the masks that Moses removed from Ezra was a yellow mask that made her feel nauseous, 2) The defining trait of BLACK damage is that it can attack both the mind and body while ignoring one's WHITE(Mind) and RED(Physical) resistances. With that said, the main status effect associated with Sloth is Tremor(which is tied to the Stagger status) results in one's resistances to become fatal, along with being able to do additional sub-effects such as Decay, Fracture, and Reverb which further shows it's correlation to BLACK damage.
- Lust- this one is also likely related to RED damage as evidenced by the following: 1) The description for RED damage say this- "This type relates to physical damage. This involves bloodshed. Some may leave small scratches, others may shatter the body with devastating strikes. An Abnormality with high RED value could turn an employee into an unrecognizable mess with a single blow, no matter how small and cute they may seem." and most Lust-based Abnormalities and E.G.O's deal physical damage and cause the Bleed status effect, 2) Sanguine Desire (one of the Abnormality E.G.O's that deal RED damage) is tied to Lust.
- Pride- I'd say this one can either be BLACK or PALE damage, as it's connected to the Poise status effect(which is directly associated with critical hits). The former due to Lobotomy Corporation Outis.(who wields Der Freischütz E.G.O, which is known to inflict BLACK damage) and it's counter part Der Fluchschütze being tied to Pride, while the latter is also likely due to critical hits acting Durability/Resistance Negation which is tied to PALE damage.
- Gluttony- I'd say this one can either be RED or PALE damage due to it's connection to the Rupture status effect(which causes it to deal fixed damage). The former due to the Wingbeat E.G.O(one of the abnormality E.G.O's that deal RED damage) being associated with Gluttony, while the latter is due to Rupture status effect seems to be used for durability negation in general as it can be seen in several other Sin affinities, and fixed damage being how PALE damage shows it's Death Manipulation/Life-Absorption/Durability Negation/Resistance Negation.
(Supporting Evidence)Mindscapes are scalable:
One of the ways to use the Light that I haven't mentioned yet is the ability to create pocket dimensions based on one's psyche. E.G.Os and Distortions alike are capable of creating these as evidenced by the different mindscapes seen in the verse such as Angela's Library(EGO), YuRia's Atelier(EGO), Fei Lei(The Carp)'s Aquarium(Distortion). The Laundry of Dreams(Distortion).
The Library in particular is notable as it's a universe-sized pocket dimension that houses smaller pocket dimensions within it. Another notable aspect of The Library is it's ability to change the background when using E.G.O/Character pages which has evidence of being more than just background art as not only are the pocket dimensions acknowledged in the story itself, but also in Limbus Company the Golden Boughs(also referred to as a Sapling of Light) also creates pocket dimensions(which are referred to as the fathoms of ego) based on one's psyche by resonating with someone, which matches with how the Library's Floors can change their backgrounds by synchronizing with their respective Abnormalities and/or using certain character's abilities. With that said, I think it's safe to say that under normal circumstances these pocket dimension would either only be able to scale to each other or only count as a creation feat, but some instances can be scaled to characters such as Argalia's Grand Finale attack.
What would this qualify for:
It says in the Universal Energy System page regarding Non-Physical Energy systems that "an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities". Fortunately all 3 applications of Light have shown these, as evidenced by the following: 1) For E.G.O(specifically personal/Effloresced E.G.O) it's fully manifested personal E.G.O is a lot stronger than the Partial manifestation(also known as Volatile E.G.O in Limbus Company) , 2) For Shin it is shown that the more rings one manifests the greater the power output, 3) Distortion are shown to get stronger by further distorting as seen with the Reverberation Ensemble wherein they gained greater power by further distorting. So I don't think there is any issues here.
While the full Universal Energy System section of the same page says that "If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death." which after searching I could only find 1 direct example of this, which is in Chapter 24 of Distortion Detective wherein Ezra had her Distortion(i.e. her Light) absorbed which resulted in her falling unconscious, only waking up after it was returned to her in Chapter 25. Which along with the rest of the evidence should be enough for a complete UES.
Conclusion:
Overall I'd say there is enough for a full UES here, but if this isn't enough evidence then I'm willing to settle for a Non-Physical Energy System.
Counted, and thanks for joining in.
