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Hello all, this is part 2 of this thread, which introduced the nature of souls and ki in dragon ball. While also showing how ki can inherently affect souls in one way or another. This thread will be aiming to extend that even further.
Soul damage
This will be going over how ki based attacks, and even physical hits from characters which use ki to amp their attacks, do actually directly damage the soul. The first example of this is the Hakai technique. Now first, we have to ask what Hakai actually does. Well its core function is completely destroying the target, erasing it from existence, turning something into nothing. This includes the body and soul. Hakai can be applied in multiple different ways, like using the power of destruction, or the technique itself. The destruction technique itself can be used by beings who do not possess god ki or the power of destruction. Gas and Granolah are prime examples of this fact, displaying use of Hakai while just having regular ki. In vegeta’s case, he can also use the destruction technique without transforming into any god forms or ultra ego, which is distinct from regular god ki, as stated by goku, similar to angel ki. But when Vegeta uses energy of destruction, he has to be in ultra ego to do it demonstrably. Now, we only need to focus on energy of destruction, it being used to apply the effects of Hakai into projectiles, like ki balls. Now first off, what IS energy of destruction exactly? Well at its core fundamental level, it's literally just ki, energy, but obviously more refined, like god ki in general. This ki can be attained by doing special training like vegeta did, or through the use of the ritual. Hakai when being interacted with physically in any way, will always aim to completely destroy your soul from existence, targeting it and your body directly at all times. When characters like gas, or goku touch it, they are fighting and resisting having their soul erased. This is relevant because Hakai is nowhere stated that it interacts and damages the soul just because it's Hakai. Hakai is very clearly made to just be an enhanced version of what ki has already been shown to do, it simply erases. As accepted, ki attacks have already been shown to interact with the soul in one way or another, Hakai damaging the soul would also mean just regular ki attacks do the same thing, the only difference is that when destroying and damaging souls, it does not erase like Hakai does, and is not as potent. Evidence would need to be provided to prove that Hakai allows for ki to have soul interaction and damage at all, or evidence of the fundamental aspect of ki to be changed, which isn't shown in the verse at all, which I’ve shown is not the case. These specific techniques are simply an extension of what ki can already do, which is evident by the fact that ki IS the spirit/soul, so the interpretation would have far more evidence backing it up, with the later having none, that being that ki can not do this.
Soul Damage Resistance
This section will be why ki users would also have a resistance to baseline affects of soul damage. With ki damaging the soul, and db characters being able to tank these types of attacks, not to mention just the mere fact that ki enhances and strengthens the soul to have a defense against soul based attacks, they should gain this resistance. We know these characters can tank attacks that target the soul, like Hakai, or Raditz fighting as a soul, or just the soul being just as strong as the body, it all depends on your ki, since ki=life energy=spiritual energy=soul. This is pretty simple all things considered, even ignoring most of the things above, a resistance to soul damage would still be valid for the reasons above at the bare minimum. Other resistances, like the spirit fission, Mafuba, Hakai, and other soul based attacks would have to be identified thoroughly, since they extend further than soul damage, and are more specific abilities that target the soul. But just for this specific soul damage resistance, it would be very widespread, just for basic Ki users, even at the initial level, basic at the worst.
Agree: LordGriffin1000, DarkDragonMedeus, FinePoint
Neutral:
Disagree:
Soul damage
This will be going over how ki based attacks, and even physical hits from characters which use ki to amp their attacks, do actually directly damage the soul. The first example of this is the Hakai technique. Now first, we have to ask what Hakai actually does. Well its core function is completely destroying the target, erasing it from existence, turning something into nothing. This includes the body and soul. Hakai can be applied in multiple different ways, like using the power of destruction, or the technique itself. The destruction technique itself can be used by beings who do not possess god ki or the power of destruction. Gas and Granolah are prime examples of this fact, displaying use of Hakai while just having regular ki. In vegeta’s case, he can also use the destruction technique without transforming into any god forms or ultra ego, which is distinct from regular god ki, as stated by goku, similar to angel ki. But when Vegeta uses energy of destruction, he has to be in ultra ego to do it demonstrably. Now, we only need to focus on energy of destruction, it being used to apply the effects of Hakai into projectiles, like ki balls. Now first off, what IS energy of destruction exactly? Well at its core fundamental level, it's literally just ki, energy, but obviously more refined, like god ki in general. This ki can be attained by doing special training like vegeta did, or through the use of the ritual. Hakai when being interacted with physically in any way, will always aim to completely destroy your soul from existence, targeting it and your body directly at all times. When characters like gas, or goku touch it, they are fighting and resisting having their soul erased. This is relevant because Hakai is nowhere stated that it interacts and damages the soul just because it's Hakai. Hakai is very clearly made to just be an enhanced version of what ki has already been shown to do, it simply erases. As accepted, ki attacks have already been shown to interact with the soul in one way or another, Hakai damaging the soul would also mean just regular ki attacks do the same thing, the only difference is that when destroying and damaging souls, it does not erase like Hakai does, and is not as potent. Evidence would need to be provided to prove that Hakai allows for ki to have soul interaction and damage at all, or evidence of the fundamental aspect of ki to be changed, which isn't shown in the verse at all, which I’ve shown is not the case. These specific techniques are simply an extension of what ki can already do, which is evident by the fact that ki IS the spirit/soul, so the interpretation would have far more evidence backing it up, with the later having none, that being that ki can not do this.
- More examples of soul damage include statements of Vegeta being killed if he dies again. Goku mentions this to Vegeta before he goes on to stall kid buu for goku. Goku says since Vegeta is already dead, if he gets killed again, he won’t exist anymore, his soul will not be in the mortal realm, OR the dead. Now there are a couple examples of what this actually means, but first, I’ll say this directly proves that when a person in dragon ball dies by the hands of another character, that includes the soul also being killed. This lines up with healing being a spirit technique, but I digress. This would be via ki attacks, or physical attacks, both are still amped by ki. Now, backtracking a little bit, I mentioned how the soul actually regenerates when returned to the afterlife, as well as the body, in some cases like frieza, who got obliterated. This implies vegeta’s body and soul would have been obliterated by kid buu, and this is not exclusive to buu. “Not existing anymore” in this case means the soul will not regenerate and go back to the afterlife. That protection from obliteration and reincarnation cycle is gone when dead. Evil beings would negate all that, and those dead souls would not go to the afterlife and regenerate, and again, this is shown to be the case through frieza specifically. In the case of yamoshi, his soul was wandering around the universe, communing with characters through dreams like the ancient namekian, Beerus, and potentially the oracle fish. The important part here, is that we know souls can be in like fragments, as seen in the moro saga. Vegeta releases the souls and they are shown in small fragments that go back to the body, it's seen coming from Moro getting his souls ripped away, and multiple other panels. So there is not an issue for Yamoshis soul not regenerating fully, it was just floating around as something insignificant, and would still have his consciousness, and mind. Next is vegeta’s spirit fission. I know we’ve gone over this a lot, but it's very important. The way vegeta separates souls is through physical contact, he’s shown hitting moro over and over again. And he starts gradually getting weaker, (which implies the soul fragments are actually invisible until a mass quantity starts gathering). Since we know spirit fission is a spirit technique, and like I said, requiring physical contact, this means vegeta is actually damaging and interacting with moro’s soul, while separating the souls he absorbed, which is just further proof of DB characters with soul damaging ki. Another example of potential soul damage is during the Gas and Granolah fight. As the fight went on, Granolah used his infamous clone technique, which is applied by splitting his literal power to create clones. This is not an illusion, in the sense that it's fake, this clone is a very real Illusion in this case, just means deception, trickery. This is not the same as someone like Tien’s technique, which is described to be something unique to him only, and also not functioning anything like Granolah’s. Granolah’s clones are what can be assumed to be what Pybara described back in the Moro arc. A spirit technique that is used to split your soul, which creates a physical body, with memories, and its own consciousness and ki. So this is also soul splitting. It’s also shown that when the copy fizzles out, the power returns to him. The most important part here is that Granolah actually retains the damage done to these clones. Which means the ki/spirit emitted by Granolah is capable of being damaged by regular ki attacks and physical hits, which is what gas did. This further supports that gas was actually damaging Granolah’s soul directly. From the examples provided, and from a narrative standpoint, dragon ball characters are capable of soul damage with ki.
Soul Damage Resistance
This section will be why ki users would also have a resistance to baseline affects of soul damage. With ki damaging the soul, and db characters being able to tank these types of attacks, not to mention just the mere fact that ki enhances and strengthens the soul to have a defense against soul based attacks, they should gain this resistance. We know these characters can tank attacks that target the soul, like Hakai, or Raditz fighting as a soul, or just the soul being just as strong as the body, it all depends on your ki, since ki=life energy=spiritual energy=soul. This is pretty simple all things considered, even ignoring most of the things above, a resistance to soul damage would still be valid for the reasons above at the bare minimum. Other resistances, like the spirit fission, Mafuba, Hakai, and other soul based attacks would have to be identified thoroughly, since they extend further than soul damage, and are more specific abilities that target the soul. But just for this specific soul damage resistance, it would be very widespread, just for basic Ki users, even at the initial level, basic at the worst.
Agree: LordGriffin1000, DarkDragonMedeus, FinePoint
Neutral:
Disagree:
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