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Inazuma Eleven: The Case for Hissatsus

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Hello, I decided to redo this CRT and have it focus on Hissatsu being literal rather than that simple Black Hole CRT. This CRT aims to establish scaling with hissatsu, mainly via a combination of the effects they create, and the descriptions used for them and how those are actually literal and happening.

For those who are uninformed, Hissatsu are the main "abilities" of the Inazuma Eleven series. They are special moves / techniques that are used to turn the tides of matches and have some sort of gimmick related to them. There are 4 types (Shoot, Dribble, Block, Catch) and typically they have crazy spectacle or phenomena associated with them...
This can range from a skill like Black Hole which is stated to "Create a black hole in the palm of your hand to swallow up any shot!" or Fire Tornado which surrounds the user in fire and turns the soccer ball into a fireball. Their effects and impact range, but typically they are used for scaling.

Now there are some crazy Hissatsu in here would have some scaling implications, such as the aforementioned "Black Hole" or "Big Bang", so I'm going to address a couple of things I think are important to showcase that a Hissatsu effects are real and are scalable.

Hissatsu are not just a shared imagination of the players

We know for a fact this is true based on a couple examples from the series, that show the effects of these attacks and even that the spectacle is actually happening, for example, in Orion, the player Sakanoue utilizes 氷の矢 (Ice Arrow) to freeze a ball which had a shoe knife lodged into it, he then kicks the and breaks the ice so that it snaps the knife off. Had he just kicked the ball, the knife would have not broken, making it clear Ice Arrow and the ice formed was real.

Another example appears in the Inazuma Eleven games and Anime when we are shown the aftermath of Teikoku Academy vs. Zeus Academy. Presumably, Aphrodi's God Knows was so powerful it created a massive physical crater in the field.

One final example we have is a Gouenji's sister, Yuuka, drawing Gouenji performing the Last Resort Hissatsu (This is from the Gouneji Manga).

So based on these examples, we can discern that the actual effects of the hissatsu and what is occurring are in fact literal. The damage caused by God Knows had major effects on the field, the ice created by Ice Arrow was in fact manifested there, and other people who aren't the players can see these hissatsu.

Hissatsu are capable of being utilized outside of soccer

An important thing to note is that once the players go back to their normal lives, they can still use Hissatsu. This shows a level of consistency in their abilities and also that they are strong enough to do so without need for a soccer ball, let's say. Examples of such are Endou using God Hand to catch a tire, or Dash Train being used in Rugby, which also shows hissatsu aren't just limited to soccer as a sport. There are a couple other examples of people mentioning such in the games.

I believe this evidence is proof enough that Hissatsu can in fact be used for more "literal" scaling, we see in the series time and time again that what these move do are literal and physically happening, and also match their in game descriptions/counterparts. Now, what does this mean for scaling? Well, a lot of characters would be due upgrades. As early as the Aliea Academy Arc we see Hissatsu such as Black Hole, and Universe Blast which is said to be "An aerial double kick that tears through the fabric of space!" as well as other Hissatsu like Big Bang, Planet Break, Last Death Zone.

Now some important things I want to establish that I think are important, there have been multiple games in the Inazuma Eleven series, some have revised the descriptions of Hissatsus, so I think it makes sense to use the latest game, Victory Road. Which is supposed to feature every single character and Hissatsu in the series (around 5,200 characters to be exact). This makes it the most recent and up-to date compilation of updated descriptions and visuals for the series.

Now there was some contention in relation to scaling, one of the arguments I heard was how a powerful skill like Black Hole could eventually be surpassed by something as simple as Fire Tornado, other skills which look mundane in comparison. I don't quite think this is a good argument. Characters often grow stronger to contend with or overpower Hissatsu that may have originally given them trouble. As power scalers, that character just simply scales stronger to them, so it wouldn't really matter.
(On the Black Hole example, they even note they need more speed to beat it, which is pretty in line with a Black Hole)

This is my CRT, I'd like supporters here to discuss the actual implications and stat changes if it passes.
 
I'm fine with considering these actual feats, but in terms of the black hole, it definitely doesn't fit our standards for considering it a real one.
 
I'm fine with considering these actual feats, but in terms of the black hole, it definitely doesn't fit our standards for considering it a real one.
That’s fine, I’ve seen that Black Holes have lots of standards, but I assume you agree with the core of the CRT?
 
If the proposal is just that we don't consider Hissatsus to be purely imaginary, then yes.
It's that alongside the fact that what Hissatsus do are in fact real and should be used for scaling (obviously case by case) but there's a couple early on like the aforementioned Big Bang, Universe Blast, etc.
 
It's that alongside the fact that what Hissatsus do are in fact real and should be used for scaling (obviously case by case) but there's a couple early on like the aforementioned Big Bang, Universe Blast, etc.
Sure.
 
Inazuma is very messy on the wiki right now (and ive had to hiatus my rewatch of Go collecting feats for it), but its generally the accepted case right now that

-The current profiles up are only for the anime version of the characters. Game versions are a lot more busted with a lot more variation. We do still use some reasonable game statements on hissatsu to help scale, and Inazuma Strikers is definitely anime adjacent to use.
-Hissatsus definitely have real properties and arent all imaginary, but there is a lot of hyperbole we cant really prove such as the big bang stuff. The Black holes are difficult to consider as legit also. I personally couldn't consider something like 'Big Bang' to actually be Universe level just for being named and having a pretty visual tied to it. 'Planet Break' too definitely isnt...literally busting a planet in a realistic context.
-Not really contested but Ares/Orion and the Original timeline are independent and separate to one another outside of Season 1, so they shouldn't be used to prove how the other works unless its pretty niche (like Ares/Orion trying to give a retconny explanation for Heaven's Time). The Ares/Orion profiles we have are also severely undercooked
-I definitely want to see what Victory Road has, especially now that its claiming to go beyond into dimension tiering and follows after Chrono Stone

Its such a tricky verse to scale being based only on Soccer. The verse could definitely do with more solid explanations on its power system and how the wiki chooses to approach it. Unfortunately its a huge amount of work for a very under-supported verse, and i think its definitely worth separating games/anime/manga since they're all separate continuities.
 
Its such a tricky verse to scale being based only on Soccer. The verse could definitely do with more solid explanations on its power system and how the wiki chooses to approach it. Unfortunately its a huge amount of work for a very under-supported verse, and i think its definitely worth separating games/anime/manga since they're all separate continuities.
Hmmmm... well, that's unfortunate. I think some more standardized scaling would be nice, but I do think that using the game descriptions for the anime helps as it's supplementary, and the games are in fact the source material, it's one of the main things that gives "Big Bang" it's scaling, even if it's absurd, a lot of these should still be considered for scaling.

I'm willing to help with revisions if it's needed, is there a thread we can talk about this stuff in?
 
I agree that Hissatsu techniques are something that can indeed exist within the context of the story. However, the creation of a black hole through a Hissatsu move, as depicted in the series, doesn't meet the standards typically accepted by wiki guidelines, and therefore it wouldn't be possible to calculate the energy output accurately. That being said, I'm also not certain whether the in-game descriptions of Hissatsu techniques can reliably be used for scaling purposes. If they could, we'd easily end up with 3-A feats from Big Bang or Low 2-C from Universe Blast without much difficulty.
 
I agree that Hissatsu techniques are something that can indeed exist within the context of the story. However, the creation of a black hole through a Hissatsu move, as depicted in the series, doesn't meet the standards typically accepted by wiki guidelines, and therefore it wouldn't be possible to calculate the energy output accurately. That being said, I'm also not certain whether the in-game descriptions of Hissatsu techniques can reliably be used for scaling purposes. If they could, we'd easily end up with 3-A feats from Big Bang or Low 2-C from Universe Blast without much difficulty.
I think if the hissatsu description and “spectacle” match it should be used. If we establish that the effects of a Hissatsu are real, then there should be no reason not to assume that even if it’s for a moment, these characters are actually committing the feat, like planet break for example. It doesn’t have to be them fragmening Earth but it can still be them fragmenting a planet with a soccer ball.

Additionally this probably gives some good speed feats cause of stuff like Last Death Zone where they enter space extremely fast.
 
I'm willing to help with revisions if it's needed, is there a thread we can talk about this stuff in?
As of right now, not really. Its mainly been me and ive been very on and off. I was doing a Go rewatch, but had to hold it for education.
Can definitely amke a general discussion thread perhaps, but yh this verse needs a LOT of work done. Ive started mainly with making the profiles for characters from S1, then fixing everything up to S2 (though havent done so in a while)

I think if the hissatsu description and “spectacle” match it should be used. If we establish that the effects of a Hissatsu are real, then there should be no reason not to assume that even if it’s for a moment, these characters are actually committing the feat, like planet break for example. It doesn’t have to be them fragmening Earth but it can still be them fragmenting a planet with a soccer ball.

Additionally this probably gives some good speed feats cause of stuff like Last Death Zone where they enter space extremely fast.
We can use hissatsu descriptions from games, but we do have to be selective by what fits and what doesnt. The hissatsus definitely aren't all literal, so we cant really take them at face value for the sake of criticality. The Inazuma games definitely do hyperbole a lot of statements if we follow games (Like how Epsilon's boots can 'destroy' planets', meanwhile tachimukai's team's goalkeeper gloves can apaprently stop the sun from setting). I dont mind perhaps using that scaling when it comes to game profiles, but the anime is a lot more tame in comparison.

Im not entirely against the spectacle being representative of the power, but sadly the effects do just appear visually and then have no lasting effect. Theres os many hissatsu animations that will leave craters on the ground, that just suddenly get reset in actual reality? Back in Ares, Haizaki's goalkeeper quite literally has a hissatsu that craters the ground and had the goalpost physically drop, only for that all to suddenly not have happened. Its just really tricky

Last Death Zone actually has the characters fly up into space from where they were standing (Too bad its from a canon-adjacent-but-ultimately-not-canon source) so that one is an example of something that can work. I rejoiced when they showed Hakuryuu actually generated a real Hurricane in that moment
 
That being said, I'm also not certain whether the in-game descriptions of Hissatsu techniques can reliably be used for scaling purposes. If they could, we'd easily end up with 3-A feats from Big Bang or Low 2-C from Universe Blast without much difficulty.
Well the descriptions straight-up contradict what's shown sometimes. For example, the black hole one claims it swallows the ball, but that clearly doesn't happen.

So I agree we would only use what's actually shown.
 
Hissatsu are not just a shared imagination of the players

We know for a fact this is true based on a couple examples from the series, that show the effects of these attacks and even that the spectacle is actually happening, for example, in Orion, the player Sakanoue utilizes 氷の矢 (Ice Arrow) to freeze a ball which had a shoe knife lodged into it, he then kicks the and breaks the ice so that it snaps the knife off. Had he just kicked the ball, the knife would have not broken, making it clear Ice Arrow and the ice formed was real.

Another example appears in the Inazuma Eleven games and Anime when we are shown the aftermath of Teikoku Academy vs. Zeus Academy. Presumably, Aphrodi's God Knows was so powerful it created a massive physical crater in the field.

One final example we have is a Gouenji's sister, Yuuka, drawing Gouenji performing the Last Resort Hissatsu (This is from the Gouneji Manga).

So based on these examples, we can discern that the actual effects of the hissatsu and what is occurring are in fact literal. The damage caused by God Knows had major effects on the field, the ice created by Ice Arrow was in fact manifested there, and other people who aren't the players can see these hissatsu.
I completely agree with this. You can use these feats too:
 
No one disagrees hissatsus are real and tangible, it's just literally that we cant always take them at face value for what they're appearing to be.
 
Hmmmmmmm, well given the state of the pages on the wiki, I'm glad this was able to establish something, but now I think the best course of action would be to just make game profiles.
Although I'll speak more on the lasting effects of Hissatsu on the terrain, later however.
Thank you all for participating@
 
Game profiles definitely separate, though would probs have to work in tandem with an overall revision of all the profiles we got so far too so they can all be on the same page.

I might try and fix a few more profiles later tbh, I've definitely been putting off fixing Fubuki and Grans profile as two pretty major characters
 
We should make a general thread, but I'm going to bump this real quickly.

Will try to get more staff, but since this CRT applies to the whole of Inazuma Eleven, it's a good start. I guess we should answer if Universe Blast can be used, and if it really gives anything.
 
Universe Blast definitely isnt actually Universe level. Its just spatial manipulation tbh if it 'tears a hole in space'. Gemini Storm defintiely wouldnt be that level of power either
 
For the Original Inazuma Eleven:

Profiles with the updated format that i'll add the list to:

Endou Mamoru
Gouenji Shuuya
Kidou Yuuto
Kazemaru Ichirouta
Someoka Ryuugo
Ichinose Kazuya
Afuro Terumi
Midorikawa Ryuuji
Tobitaka Seiya
Utsunomiya Toramaru
Mack Ronijo

Profiles that still need updating:

Fubuki Shirou
Fudou Akio
Tachimukai Yuuki
Kiyama Hiroto
Saginuma Osamu
Nagumo Haruya
Suzuno Fuusuke
Rococo Urupa
Edgar Valtinas
Sein

I think we should focus on the original Inazuma first of all, since Go is a LOT more complicated. I feel confident we can make the main pages for Tenma, Shindou and Tsurugi once we are all on the same page overall about how we want Inazuma to be. Im so glad theres more people interested in scaling this verse now
 
Universe Blast definitely isnt actually Universe level. Its just spatial manipulation tbh if it 'tears a hole in space'. Gemini Storm defintiely wouldnt be that level of power either
That’s what I meant, I don’t know what “tearing a fabric in space” constitutates as.
 
For the Original Inazuma Eleven:

Profiles with the updated format that i'll add the list to:
Endou Mamoru
Gouenji Shuuya
Kidou Yuuto
Kazemaru Ichirouta
Someoka Ryuugo
Ichinose Kazuya
Afuro Terumi
Midorikawa Ryuuji
Tobitaka Seiya
Utsunomiya Toramaru
Mack Ronijo

Profiles that still need updating:
Fubuki Shirou
Fudou Akio
Tachimukai Yuuki
Kiyama Hiroto
Saginuma Osamu
Nagumo Haruya
Suzuno Fuusuke
Rococo Urupa
Edgar Valtinas
Sein

I think we should focus on the original Inazuma first of all, since Go is a LOT more complicated. I feel confident we can make the main pages for Tenma, Shindou and Tsurugi once we are all on the same page overall about how we want Inazuma to be. Im so glad theres more people interested in scaling this verse now
Do you mean add references and stuff like that? Because i already updated every single page of them anyways (talking about thier abilities and categories).
 
Yeah i wrote that list before all that. Thats just the separation of pages that have the proper format and have been updated, and the ones that still need to be which ill look into soon. Im working on a few other projects in the meanwhile but eventually they'll get done
 
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