Metal Sonic vs Omega (Mega Man) [0-0-7]

[Smashtwig]

I'll try and break it down for you since there isn't any good place that notes this:

The only hax that are higher-D is:

• Chaos Control (as the Time Manipulation is on a 6-D scale)
• A handful of resistances in Base because of some characters no-selling the Time Eater nuke.
• Maybe 1 or 2 more things off the top of my head.

As a side note; Higher Dimensionality hax apparently doesn't apply anymore when it comes to Metaphysical Aspects ("examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot" - Metaphysical Aspects page). This was brought up in a different Sonic match, iirc the reason being something along the lines of "Dimensionality shouldn't matter for Meta Aspects until you reach 1-A".

Granted, at that rate, I'm not sure how we could even gauge the potency comparison of such things when talking cross-verse.

Gotta get to the nitty-gritty here. The Invulnerability is NOT assumed to work on ALL hax, but there are some which it does resist which may set a precedent.

An important note: Shadow's Invulnerability in Shadow the Hedgehog 2005 is based off of entering his Hero State or Dark State, which is stated to be fueled by either Heroism/Justice/Selflessness or Hatred/Vengeance/Villainy. In other words, what fuels Shadow's Invulnerability is the same source that powers a Super Form; Emotional Empowerment. The context is needed because what I'm showing isn't from a Super State directly, but relies on the exact same mechanics for transforming (and thus why they share justifications for Invul).

• Fire
• Poisons
• Toxins
• Electricity
• Matter Manipulation (From the Particle Beam Cannon)
• Anti-Matter

Here is a compilation of what can no longer harm Shadow in this Hero/Dark state.

I see... if that's the case maybe the Information Manip of the Dark Elf really could negate or at least mess with the Invul as a meta... thing? Or at the very least, some type of hax would work- including AZ and maybe transmutation i guess. At least, I think that's what you're trying to say.

Honestly I like that, it's a bit tedious to find opponents that can react to speed among moves.

For reference though, the Spin Dash (and others) moreso vastly upscale from 4x since he turned a blitz around despite being able to consistently keep track of Metal Sonic whenever he is using the V. Maximum Overdrive Attack (which is 4x). In other words, V. MOA (4x) < Spin Dash < Super Peel Out.

Still, I think Omega can hang herw.

I'm not convinced he can hang with Metal with speed amps. If it were just a 4x increase, I could see him doing so with difficulty. But vastly upscaling to the point you can statue characters faster than you is indisputably faster than vague increases, and potentially a 4x increase (Which I'm not sure is noted on Omega's page). I think Metal's still blitzing with that increase.

I should have clarified that my primary point was more that Omega's amps were passive while it seems like for the most part the amps mentioned for Metal seems to be tied to these attacks. It'd be much easier to keep track of these (especially when the guy kinda sits and charges up these moves first) compared to just straight on transformation type of boost (well, maybe Overdrive is that- but I've played Mania to know that the other two aren't like that). I'm sure that Mega Man has a fair share of boss attack patterns are too fast to dodge on reaction (like, hit scan moves like Dynamo or someone) and need prediction to probably evade. But besides that, I don't see how they really help if we've already established that Metal is going to need his hax to overcome Omega's AP advantage- but these speed blitz boosts are tied to physical AP based attacks.

I might have to see the "turning a speed blitz around" and "statuing" in action just to know what you guys are talking about. But again, don't see how it's super relevant if it's tied to physical attacks.

In the meantime, I did a quick fact check on the speed amps Omega should have access to. I also want to note that it seems like X and Zero can stack the same kind of part onto each other, just in case someone has doubts about that front.

• Two Speedsters (apparently, each is a 50% Boost / 1.5x) to speed- and looking at footage it certainly seems that way when I compare it to my memory of playing the game without the parts (if you really want me to bring out the games to get the part and then record and then calc them... please don't). Multiplying those together and you get 2.25x
• Three Hyperdashes (again, certainly seems to be a 50% comparing to normal dash speeds) so 3.375x for dashes if you for some reason want to count those seperately from Speedster parts
• Black Zero which is 1.5x in Command Mission
  • So, combining Black Zero + Speedster + Hyperdashes and you get 11.390625x
• Other parts I'm not counting (two Speed Shots, etc.)
• The Dark Elf itself, turning non-combatants into Zero level, and sharing the same energy levels as Omega- so, around 2x if you consider them equals.
• Speed Enhancing Cyber Elves that the Dark Elf should upscale all basically combined due to it being able to make huge amounts of energy when combined with tech- and is straight up incalculable compared to Cyber Elves which only seem to provide "limited energy" as the bad guys typically needed to make more and more for energy purposes, and Zero's been shown to be able to stack these in the games as either permament upgrades or temporary things in Cyberspace- though these are much more vague in increase (they "felt" like 1.25x increases; but I really don't want to open up the games just to calc and test it out, so I'll lowball these to 1.1x each, maybe I'll calc it later if this becomes a big issue)
  • There are only four of these, and 1.1x for each

So adding these all up: 1 (base speed) x 1.5 x 1.5 (Speedster) x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 (Hyper Dash) x 1.5 (Black Zero) x 2 (Dark Elf) x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 (Other Cyber Elve amps)- that's around a 33.3540281x boost that is completely passive. Again, if you absolutely need me to play the games and calculate the numbers- I'll do it but I will be very grumpy.

As for the Speed Gear thing, it's not on the profile because Zero / Omega never demonstrate its existence, after all Mega Man 11 is the most recent game, so my best educated guess is that Wily integrated it into Zero's base speed or something. I'm only throwing it out there because I'm sure someone out there would use that as an argument even if I personally wouldn't.

By the way, for those worried about "hey it's a speed equal match so if Omega does get a win wouldn't it not count because of this?", I honestly don't think Speed is a main factor here given again, the amps are tied to physical attacks, along with Omega's answers to speed besides just increasing his speed himself.

Fair, though Metal Sonic does have the Black Shield that also acts as omnidirectional protection even from those amped with an Emerald (Giant Zavok). If the scan didn't load I'm sorry, had to nab it quick.

Oh my point here was just that if we determine that Metal was still too fast, Omega still has these omnidirectional attacks and shields to counter close range combat + speed as like- an answer to that fact since it's an AoE attack

I agree there's probably no skill-curbing going on here. Dr. Eggman's intellect also comes with a level of arrogance for Neo.

Not a "I'm gonna sit and tank your attack!" thing, more like a "I have all the means to destroy you but I want to drag this out a bit for my amusement". Definitely less of an issue than it is for Eggy tho.

I'm not really sure if it affects how the fight will go, but Omega's super relentless and definitely feels like it too when you play against him (the guy can start his strongest moves like Ranbu immediately or at the very least without much hesitation- pretty much throws out everything he's got in his moveset without a "hey i only use this at 10% health" clause, which includes the AZ Arc Blade I talked about earlier), which may actually work out into his favor.

I don't want to do a cop-out "This is inconclusive, Gg, no Ls for me!" but tbh, might be shaping up to be that way. Gonna let other people comment their thoughts first.

Then incon fra lol

 

[LaserPrecision]

I should have clarified that my primary point was more that Omega's amps were passive while it seems like for the most part the amps mentioned for Metal seems to be tied to these attacks. It'd be much easier to keep track of these (especially when the guy kinda sits and charges up these moves first) compared to just straight on transformation type of boost (well, maybe Overdrive is that- but I've played Mania to know that the other two aren't like that).

There's no charge-up for it in canon. Well, they CAN charge it up. But it can be instantly used by basically just jumping at the opponent.

I might have to see the "turning a speed blitz around" and "statuing" in action just to know what you guys are talking about. But again, don't see how it's super relevant if it's tied to physical attacks.

Here. When I calculated it, the difference in speed it creates is over 300x. Obviously that can't be put on the profile, but the effective difference in speed it creates is over 300x. The first clip specifically. And as you see in the clip, they don't need to build it up. They can just quickly go into it with almost no tell.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I see... if that's the case maybe the Information Manip of the Dark Elf really could negate or at least mess with the Invul as a meta... thing? Or at the very least, some type of hax would work- including AZ and maybe transmutation i guess. At least, I think that's what you're trying to say.

The problem is that Metal has resistance to most of those via Sonic and Shadow's resistances. So he resists Info Type 2 and Transmutation in this case.

But yes, hax that Metal doesn't resist would work for sure imo unless they're reliant on physical harm (for obvious reasons lol). AZ probably works.

In the meantime, I did a quick fact check on the speed amps Omega should have access to. I also want to note that it seems like X and Zero can stack the same kind of part onto each other, just in case someone has doubts about that front.

• Two Speedsters (apparently, each is a 50% Boost / 1.5x) to speed- and looking at footage it certainly seems that way when I compare it to my memory of playing the game without the parts (if you really want me to bring out the games to get the part and then record and then calc them... please don't). Multiplying those together and you get 2.25x
• Three Hyperdashes (again, certainly seems to be a 50% comparing to normal dash speeds) so 3.375x for dashes if you for some reason want to count those seperately from Speedster parts
• Black Zero which is 1.5x in Command Mission
  • So, combining Black Zero + Speedster + Hyperdashes and you get 11.390625x
• Other parts I'm not counting (two Speed Shots, etc.)
• The Dark Elf itself, turning non-combatants into Zero level, and sharing the same energy levels as Omega- so, around 2x if you consider them equals.
• Speed Enhancing Cyber Elves that the Dark Elf should upscale all basically combined due to it being able to make huge amounts of energy when combined with tech- and is straight up incalculable compared to Cyber Elves which only seem to provide "limited energy" as the bad guys typically needed to make more and more for energy purposes, and Zero's been shown to be able to stack these in the games as either permament upgrades or temporary things in Cyberspace- though these are much more vague in increase (they "felt" like 1.25x increases; but I really don't want to open up the games just to calc and test it out, so I'll lowball these to 1.1x each, maybe I'll calc it later if this becomes a big issue)
  • There are only four of these, and 1.1x for each

So adding these all up: 1 (base speed) x 1.5 x 1.5 (Speedster) x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 (Hyper Dash) x 1.5 (Black Zero) x 2 (Dark Elf) x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 (Other Cyber Elve amps)- that's around a 33.3540281x boost that is completely passive. Again, if you absolutely need me to play the games and calculate the numbers- I'll do it but I will be very grumpy.

LMAO nah man I am NOT that stingy. I'll take your word for it. 33x boost is pretty good.

As a side note, you should absolutely put this in a blog. This could be really useful to have on the pages, almost like SSJ in vs matches in a sense because the cast could potentially breach into blitzing their opponent mid-match and make them even more annoying to deal with which is always a W

Oh my point here was just that if we determine that Metal was still too fast, Omega still has these omnidirectional attacks and shields to counter close range combat + speed as like- an answer to that fact since it's an AoE attack

Ahhh. Gotcha!

I'm not really sure if it affects how the fight will go, but Omega's super relentless and definitely feels like it too when you play against him (the guy can start his strongest moves like Ranbu immediately or at the very least without much hesitation- pretty much throws out everything he's got in his moveset without a "hey i only use this at 10% health" clause, which includes the AZ Arc Blade I talked about earlier), which may actually work out into his favor.

I'd definitely say he would be on some sort of offensive at that rate. Because of the sheer AP difference (12 Uni vs 27 Uni, with only a 1 universe difference basically being insurmountable), Omega himself might as well have invulnerability to any of Metal's physical attacks here.

Perhaps I'd give Metal an advantage in that he learns how to use the powers of those he copies, but it becomes an issue of if Metal can bust out relevant hax before Omega manages to tag him with one of his (especially since being in Super makes Neo a little bit of an arrogant prick, more than he is already kek).

Then incon fra lol

After your comments, I believe I might vote Incon as well.

@LaserPrecision I'll see if you have any comments before finalizing an incon vote.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's no charge-up for it in canon. Well, they CAN charge it up. But it can be instantly used by basically just jumping at the opponent.

Here. When I calculated it, the difference in speed it creates is over 300x. Obviously that can't be put on the profile, but the effective difference in speed it creates is over 300x. The first clip specifically. And as you see in the clip, they don't need to build it up. They can just quickly go into it with almost no tell.

If it can't be put on the profile then why would the "300×" multiplier even matter? It's not valid in that case.

 

[LaserPrecision]

If it can't be put on the profile then why would the "300×" multiplier even matter? It's not valid in that case.

It's for demonstrative purposes. Saying "It statues someone" is super vague and doesn't demonstrate well enough how big of a boost it is. Sonic can basically move tens of meters in the time it takes his opponent to move a centimeters.

@LaserPrecision I'll see if you have any comments before finalizing an incon vote.

I can maybe see an incon. But tbh, it only takes 1 Chaos Spear for Neo to win. Completely depletes an enemy's stamina to 0, and cuts off their access to energy and abilities instantly. And I find it hard to believe Neo wouldn't end up using Shadow's stuff with an opponent that eclipses him this much in AP. Even IF he's in Super and invulnerable to most his stuff.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbh the stamina drain has only ever worked on Super Neo Metal, no other being hit by it gets immediately reduced to 0.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

The one he used against Neo Metal did look drastically different from the projectile versions, maybe Shadow developed it that way so its something tangible he can use to drain stamina.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Tbh the stamina drain has only ever worked on Super Neo Metal, no other being hit by it gets immediately reduced to 0.

Shadow's Chaos Spear has developed throughout the years. It doesn't always paralyze, that only popped up later. The Chaos Spear Shadow used against Neo was not only one he physically held, but as we saw neutralized Super Neo and had him sat down unable to fight. Pretty sure Shadow can use certain effects of Chaos Spear when he wants.

 

[Smashtwig]

The problem is that Metal has resistance to most of those via Sonic and Shadow's resistances. So he resists Info Type 2 and Transmutation in this case.

But yes, hax that Metal doesn't resist would work for sure imo unless they're reliant on physical harm (for obvious reasons lol). AZ probably works.

okay we'll go with AZ for now-

but for insurance I am a bit concerned over the fact that Metal... doesn't have hacking or technology manip resist on his profile? Considering the fact that there's a whole subgroup of Cyber Elves straight up called "Hacker Elves"- and one of the Dark Elf's most plot relevant abilities is to control Reploids... it's a bit concerning that Metal just doesn't have a defense against it (and apparently, a super layered one at that)? I doubt that's actually the case and I probably just missed something

LMAO nah man I am NOT that stingy. I'll take your word for it. 33x boost is pretty good.

As a side note, you should absolutely put this in a blog. This could be really useful to have on the pages, almost like SSJ in vs matches in a sense because the cast could potentially breach into blitzing their opponent mid-match and make them even more annoying to deal with which is always a W

I will probably consider it but I have the GV Verse to take care of, so, maybe. I would also have to calc each specific one as well (X7's a whole different kind of game than X5 or X6). It'll be a hassle.

But I did fact check the cyber elf amp using very rudimentary tools, and after multiple tests it turns out that 1.25x was indeed an accurate estimate of the speed increase- so updating and we get-

1 (base speed) x 1.5 x 1.5 (Speedster) x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 (Hyper Dash) x 1.5 (Black Zero) x 2 (Dark Elf) x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.25 (Other Cyber Elve amps) = 55.6182861x

If we also accept the whole 300x speed thing (which I will be honest, have some doubts about), we get a 5.45454545x difference, still quite the gap, but it's not as bad as it originally was. The fact that Arc Blade is omnidirectional is such a help here. (Though, I should also mention that theoretically the Dark Elf can make AZ Ice appear pretty much anywhere given how Cyber Elf stuff works by altering the world of Cyberspace and the substance world)

I'd definitely say he would be on some sort of offensive at that rate. Because of the sheer AP difference (12 Uni vs 27 Uni, with only a 1 universe difference basically being insurmountable), Omega himself might as well have invulnerability to any of Metal's physical attacks here.

This doesn't change anything but I'm gonna just say this in anticipation of a hypothetical site change where Tier 2 is changed to something along of the lines of "50x Amp times universal is 50 universes": 27 universes is an Xtreme 2 Feat, near the beginning of the X Series, I can probably guarentee that the development between that and the end of Zero and the first ZX game will still be completely absurd enough for this to be the case even then- we talking centuries of accelerated development here.

So if that hypothetical ruling does come to pass, I'm pretty sure an incon here can still stay up lol

Perhaps I'd give Metal an advantage in that he learns how to use the powers of those he copies, but it becomes an issue of if Metal can bust out relevant hax before Omega manages to tag him with one of his (especially since being in Super makes Neo a little bit of an arrogant prick, more than he is already kek).

Fortunately for Omega, Arc Blade is part of his standard kit so there's no debate about when he'd use it in character- which is pretty much "immediately" in the sense that he's the type to throw everything at the wall thanks to how the devs decided to make him fight as a boss. The only thing that holds him back would be the game's RNG or in this case "hope he just decides to not do it based on pure luck"

I can maybe see an incon. But tbh, it only takes 1 Chaos Spear for Neo to win. Completely depletes an enemy's stamina to 0, and cuts off their access to energy and abilities instantly. And I find it hard to believe Neo wouldn't end up using Shadow's stuff with an opponent that eclipses him this much in AP. Even IF he's in Super and invulnerable to most his stuff.

but on the contrary, can't we also say it only takes one Arc Blade for Omega to win? Not to mention its spammable omnidirectional nature so he doesn't necessarily have to aim that hard

In fact I feel like you could have named out any other of Metal's hax as a better win con than a projectile based stamina drain, as it's just an extra step. In addition, the Dark Elf has shown to be able to "reactivate/heal" Omega, so Omega would still have a means to get back up after that- and the Dark Elf can even manifest its own "dark shield" to defend itself and Omega from further attacks during said reactivation like another Chaos Spear. (Only reason why it sometimes gets bypassed in that scene is just because the Dark Elf itself is weakened and breaking Weil's curse)

(Also, wouldn't recommend the argument of Metal targetting the Dark Elf itself as it's normally fused with Omega instead of outside of him)

There's also other means of defense like the aforementioned Yammar Option, but there's also his O-Saber being able to just destroy or delete attacks out of the air- or even more frightening the Guard Shell, which straight up reflects attacks- and since you said this-

Shadow's Chaos Spear has developed throughout the years. It doesn't always paralyze, that only popped up later. The Chaos Spear Shadow used against Neo was not only one he physically held, but as we saw neutralized Super Neo and had him sat down unable to fight. Pretty sure Shadow can use certain effects of Chaos Spear when he wants.

I reckon a reflected Chaos Spear isn't gonna turn out too well for Metal if it's only feat is... taking down Super Neo Metal. Though I'd like to see this "stamina drain" on panel, I have a feeling that could just be that it just knocked the guy out cold


I'd also like to think that Metal would like... start off with moves based on the person he's meant to... imitate rather than start with Shadow's moves- which would be more melee oriented, and Omega has the potential to start with Arc Blade- or any of his other AZ ice imbued techniques that Metal would be dealing with in close range.

After your comments, I believe I might vote Incon as well.

Yeah I think we've tackled almost all of the important parts, so I'm pretty locked in on Incon

 

[LaserPrecision]

but for insurance I am a bit concerned over the fact that Metal... doesn't have hacking or technology manip resist on his profile? Considering the fact that there's a whole subgroup of Cyber Elves straight up called "Hacker Elves"- and one of the Dark Elf's most plot relevant abilities is to control Reploids... it's a bit concerning that Metal just doesn't have a defense against it (and apparently, a super layered one at that)? I doubt that's actually the case and I probably just missed something

Metal's page is outdated IIRC. He def should have (layered) resistance to hacking IIRC (If hacking even works based on layers rather than intelligence showings of the creator).

but on the contrary, can't we also say it only takes one Arc Blade for Omega to win? Not to mention its spammable omnidirectional nature so he doesn't necessarily have to aim that hard

Sure, but Metal Sonic's got 4x perception speed, massive speed amps, and is infinitely more acrobatic than his opponent (Even if you want to argue he's not more skilled, which I think you very much could, I think we can agree the Sonic character in the series where they're jumping around everywhere like crackheads and breaking their bodies to do acrobatics is more acrobatic, lol) and his smaller size all make him much harder to hit than Omega. AoE can also be retreated from, or Neo can just stop time and ignore it via Chaos Control. Or teleport as another means of evasion. I've played every Zero game (bar I believe the first one? But I may have, I forget), I don't remember Omega spamming AoE that much during any of his fights. He certainly uses it, but I don't remember him spamming it like a madman.

In fact I feel like you could have named out any other of Metal's hax as a better win con than a projectile based stamina drain, as it's just an extra step. In addition, the Dark Elf has shown to be able to "reactivate/heal" Omega, so Omega would still have a means to get back up after that- and the Dark Elf can even manifest its own "dark shield" to defend itself and Omega from further attacks during said reactivation like another Chaos Spear. (Only reason why it sometimes gets bypassed in that scene is just because the Dark Elf itself is weakened and breaking Weil's curse)

Dark Elf would get neutralized too tbh. And its dark shield.

(Also, wouldn't recommend the argument of Metal targetting the Dark Elf itself as it's normally fused with Omega instead of outside of him)

That makes it easier to negate. Chaos Spear negated Super Neo while Chaos Energy was inside of him. It being inside doesn't really matter. He'll cut off access to it and depower them (Every character in Sonic has Hammerspace, and the Chaos Emeralds fuse with the user when used as Chaos Energy). Less targets is better for him.

There's also other means of defense like the aforementioned Yammar Option, but there's also his O-Saber being able to just destroy or delete attacks out of the air- or even more frightening the Guard Shell, which straight up reflects attacks- and since you said this-

I think the Chaos Spear would negate those options too. I'll cover it in this next reply before you ask.

I reckon a reflected Chaos Spear isn't gonna turn out too well for Metal if it's only feat is... taking down Super Neo Metal. Though I'd like to see this "stamina drain" on panel, I have a feeling that could just be that it just knocked the guy out cold

The stamina drain part is linked on his page. And it didn't knock out Metal Sonic. Metal Sonic can't even be knocked out, it's a robot. It has to be broken to stop working. In the scene Neo continues talking but is clearly exhausted and unable to stand, and needs to enter his final transformation after developing Shadow's biodata.

As for the "Chaos Spear negating most of Omega's abilities," I'd say look at all the abilities Chaos Energy grants. It'd bare minimum be able to negate anything feasible with that. Which is to say a metric fuckton of abilities.

I'd also like to think that Metal would like... start off with moves based on the person he's meant to... imitate rather than start with Shadow's moves- which would be more melee oriented, and Omega has the potential to start with Arc Blade- or any of his other AZ ice imbued techniques that Metal would be dealing with in close range.

Not necessarily? He doesn't try imitating the person. He gathers their data, and uses what he has access to in order to get the best of his opponent. The excepting being Sonic since Metal Sonic wants to prove he's the real, superior Sonic (Long story. Metal Sonic believes he's the real Sonic, they got long beef). But even if we assumed he fought like this, It's Omega with better mobility and acrobatics, as well as speed amps. He's going to be landing Omega's own moves better than Omega can. Especially since Neo gains the full knowledge and intellect of the biodata he copied, and would thus know every move Omega has and what it does, and how he fights.

I think incon is feasible, I just think Neo being a better fighter due to greater acrobatics, speed amps, smaller size (harder to hit), and the knowledge he'll have of all of Omega's stuff means he's not getting hit before Omega gets hit with something that finishes him. Even if we give Omega all those speed amps (Which I don't recall Omega ever using simultaneously, but maybe it was in the first game I didn't play so idk).

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Metal's page is outdated IIRC. He def should have (layered) resistance to hacking IIRC (If hacking even works based on layers rather than intelligence showings of the creator).

Where does this even come from? And how it's layered? (EDIT: Nevermind, but i don't know how his resistance would be layered)

Also incon FRA, pretty sure things might change alot if the Data upgrades go through

 

[LaserPrecision]

Where does this even come from? And how it's layered? (EDIT: Nevermind, but i don't know how his resistance would be layered)

Also incon FRA, pretty sure things might change alot if the Data upgrades go through

I said those are things that should be on the profile, but aren't due to them being outdated. But it's because of a lot of stuff involving Eggman making his things hack proof, someone hacking it, him hacking their hack, them hacking his hacking their hack, him making his things hack proof, them hacking it and him hacking that hack, blah blah blah. They have like 35 years worth of content to draw from, it'd take forever to go through all of it here. A CRT will inevitably be made for it tho.

 

[Smashtwig]

Metal's page is outdated IIRC. He def should have (layered) resistance to hacking IIRC (If hacking even works based on layers rather than intelligence showings of the creator).

Okay, I'll believe it. Is it good to assume that it's around 11ish layers? Maybe OP or someone else can confirm it because I'm not very sure where everything comes from myself.

EDIT: RM resistance to hacking < Wily’s hacking MMIV < Ra Moon < Rock < Roboenza < Maverick Virus < Sigma Virus < Zero Virus < Nightmare Virus < Cyber Elves < Mother Elf

Sure, but Metal Sonic's got 4x perception speed,

I thought I already addresed that I thought that everyone has perceptions much higher than their travel speed. I do recall we used to rate travel and combat speed differently for Omega before the big update but removed it because we thought it was redundant

massive speed amps,

I thought I sort of already addressed this, when those speed amps are tied to physical attacks, I don't think it's going to be very useful when the AP difference is that high.

and is infinitely more acrobatic than his opponent (Even if you want to argue he's not more skilled, which I think you very much could, I think we can agree the Sonic character in the series where they're jumping around everywhere like crackheads and breaking their bodies to do acrobatics is more acrobatic, lol) and his smaller size all make him much harder to hit than Omega.

Okay, I can give to the fact that the series in general has that kind of style compared to Mega Man. But I must ask how is this useful in a fight? I can see minor things like a course correction at the last minute to barely dodge an attack from knicking him, or parkouring through a building. But I'm not really sure how doing a Fortnite Backflip Emote at close range is going to help dodge an attack especially in closer ranges. In a fight spinning or somersaulting moves are just... not a good idea.

As for a smaller size, I think you meant that as a minor point, but I'll act like it's a big deal- Ground Scaravitch is also small, Infinity Mijinion is also small, Chill Penguin is also small, Mettaurs are also small, a lot of enemies are "also small"- I don't think it's a big factor here.

AoE can also be retreated from, or Neo can just stop time and ignore it via Chaos Control. Or teleport as another means of evasion.

Fair point, but I want to make it clear that it's harder to react to sudden things like close range attacks when you're already going on the offensive. It's not a big point but Metal would definitely have to be on 100 vigilance and lock in to not make any mistakes

I've played every Zero game (bar I believe the first one? But I may have, I forget), I don't remember Omega spamming AoE that much during any of his fights. He certainly uses it, but I don't remember him spamming it like a madman.

Don't worry you didn't mess anything from the Zero series, you just didn't play ZX- but I gotcha with the footage. Spammable.

Just to clear some any other doubts, Model OX is a combination of X and Omega, yes, but the only ability Model X provides is a X-buster attack that cannot even be used in OX, so really, this is just a Model O/Omega ability.

The projectiles can be bigger than they appear in ZX, and on top of that, they can be fired at angles that weren't shown in those games too, which is why I keep insisting on it being omnidirectional.

Dark Elf would get neutralized too tbh. And its dark shield.

That makes it easier to negate. Chaos Spear negated Super Neo while Chaos Energy was inside of him. It being inside doesn't really matter. He'll cut off access to it and depower them (Every character in Sonic has Hammerspace, and the Chaos Emeralds fuse with the user when used as Chaos Energy). Less targets is better for him.

I think the Chaos Spear would negate those options too. I'll cover it in this next reply before you ask.

The stamina drain part is linked on his page. And it didn't knock out Metal Sonic. Metal Sonic can't even be knocked out, it's a robot. It has to be broken to stop working. In the scene Neo continues talking but is clearly exhausted and unable to stand, and needs to enter his final transformation after developing Shadow's biodata.

As for the "Chaos Spear negating most of Omega's abilities," I'd say look at all the abilities Chaos Energy grants. It'd bare minimum be able to negate anything feasible with that. Which is to say a metric fuckton of abilities.

I looked everywhere and can only find archie stuff, I again, have my doubts about bypassing the dark shield and the other shield types just... because... well you didn't elaborate like you said you would so maybe it was a glitch or something. The Dark Elf also grants teleportation to help dodge these Chaos Spears (I know Metal has that too, but I just wanted to say it), or just transform the projectiles into health(?- would have to recheck)

Not necessarily? He doesn't try imitating the person. He gathers their data, and uses what he has access to in order to get the best of his opponent. The excepting being Sonic since Metal Sonic wants to prove he's the real, superior Sonic (Long story. Metal Sonic believes he's the real Sonic, they got long beef). But even if we assumed he fought like this, It's Omega with better mobility and acrobatics, as well as speed amps. He's going to be landing Omega's own moves better than Omega can. Especially since Neo gains the full knowledge and intellect of the biodata he copied, and would thus know every move Omega has and what it does, and how he fights.

Not even sure if using Omega's abilities against him is even a good play, but, again- we've already mentioned that Omega resists data / information analysis, but then y'all said the power copy was from Reactive Evolution- yet, now it's back to analysis?

In the scan you directed me to, it seems like Shadow needed to physically make contact with the guy in order for the copy to happen. To be frank- touching Omega when he has an omnidirectional one shotting attack doesn't seem to be a good idea- and he has other moves like Hisuishou which is a normal dash covered with that level of AZ ice as well- something we know Omega has as he also used Messenkou, another X5 technique if you don't believe Omega doesn't just get all of Zero's moves for whatever reason. I'm a bit confused.

And in addition to that, Omega's... a robot... there's no biodata to copy or analyze even if we say he does get through that information analysis resist. (EDIT: I was informed that the physical contact thing is not required nor the biodata thingie)

And speaking of intellect and tactical decisions, I feel like, as Shake said, Metal has his ego that drags out fights, so wouldn't he at least try to use his standard attacks first would he not over his big trump cards? Like if Metal sees that Omega is trying to air dash into him, would he not try to Boost or something to counter it? It sounds like something he would do to demonstrate his superiority. And if he does time stop, he better get that timing right because Omega has this omnidirectinal defense that can instantly beat Metal on a single touch, so he better also know exactly what to do by then as well.

And as for Omega, I just realize that Metal is likely flying, and Omega's only attack he's done in the air as a boss... is Arc Blade, making it even more likely that he starts with the game ending move.

I think incon is feasible, I just think Neo being a better fighter due to greater acrobatics, speed amps, smaller size (harder to hit), and the knowledge he'll have of all of Omega's stuff means he's not getting hit before Omega gets hit with something that finishes him. Even if we give Omega all those speed amps (Which I don't recall Omega ever using simultaneously, but maybe it was in the first game I didn't play so idk).

So, are you going for inconclusive or not? The fact that we're able to go back and forth with all of this is sort of proof of that.

As for your speed amp inquiry, Zero can indeed stack his parts in the game (and with seemingly no limit when X7 rolls around), I find it hard to believe that Omega who has the same exact physical body as Zero cannot do the same, especially when he's already techniques from X-Era Zero. (EDIT: in the canonical X-Challenge as highlighted in the Maverick Hunter Field Guide, Awakened Zero was able to stack Black Zero on top of that form as well, so I have no doubt this can be the same case)

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

I'm a bit confused. And in addition to that, Omega's... a robot... there's no biodata to copy or analyze even if we say he does get through that information analysis resist.

Adventure Era Neo could copy E-123 Omega, who is very much not biological

 

[Omegabronic]

Btw when Neo copies he also copies AP, he copied a bunch of 4-B's and a 2-C to get to 1-C in Metal Overlord, as well as copying one's intelect

Does Omega has an answer to this?

Like, 6D Time Stop seems like a massive problem here, specially since Eggman's Ego is only against Sonic, it wouldn't really apply here

Edit:also since he also has Sonic's and Shadow's AD, he can outgrow any stat amp Omega have

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I thought I already addresed that I thought that everyone has perceptions much higher than their travel speed. I do recall we used to rate travel and combat speed differently for Omega before the big update but removed it because we thought it was redundant

He meant reactions. Obviously not everyone has relatively high reaction speed

 

[AigerTheKing]

I didn't mean the lesser speed amps, that was just in direct reference to the 4x one. I do think the ease of access and the ability to use it indefinitely is a major boon to Metal.

In fairness, I forgot about the (Super Sonic) Boost as well.

Don't u need an 8x gap to blitz?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Don't u need an 8x gap to blitz?

That's for AP

The threshold for a speed blitz is lower than that

 

[Smashtwig]

Btw when Neo copies he also copies AP, he copied a bunch of 4-B's and a 2-C to get to 1-C in Metal Overlord, as well as copying one's intelect

Does Omega has an answer to this?

Edit:also since he also has Sonic's and Shadow's AD, he can outgrow any stat amp Omega have

Would have been nice to know that from the beginning even if I have my doubts about it but-

Actually, two. Surprisingly. Though, they aren't answers I personally like.

I should first emphasize that the Dark Elf is the only Cyber Elf that doesn't perish after using its power. Most of the time when a Cyber Elf uses its powers to say, give permament increases to stats, they perish and they cannot use their abilities ever again due to that. But since the Dark Elf doesn't do that, the Dark Elf can do two things that actually keeps Omega in the fight even if Metal does close that gap.

• Indefinite numbers of amps: Shown in Zero 2 where Elpizo gains the Dark Elf's power in full, then asks for more, and it's given to him. It should let him keep up with the constant copying and AD
• Provide indefinite numbers of ressurections: Shown when Zero beats Omega, but then the Dark Elf tries to reactivate him, only failing because it was being weakened at the time (I believe I have a clip of that above). To support this, Cyber Elves also flat out give extra lives- which are actually real things (known as the Spare Body Transfer System in the Classic Series, though in X8 and Zero series they're called "Retry Chips")

The second answer also isn't really something I personally like to use given how weird it is, but I'll share it anyways- which is the ability of Cyber Elf Jackson that the Dark Elf has. It pretty much makes the user invulnerable to anything in the game, though some could also interpret it to be a form of intangibility as well, it's strange. And even in game this is a permament upgrade that can be used over and over.

Though, there is a third one, and that's simply to fight with the disadvantage. Using the amps I've quickly put together for Omega, the difference between the 300x Spin Dash and these passive amps are of a 6x diffference. For reference, 4x is already slow motion. It's definitely gonna be hard for Omega but with his shields and omnidirectional Arc Blade I feel like the difference can be made up for especially when the 300x speed amp is tied to physical melee attacks which I've already noted is not the best idea against a person that can defeat you in a single touch (Arc Blade which I am certain Omega will use frame one now that Metal is a flying opponent and Arc Blade is Omega's primary aerial attack, Hisuishou, really any ice attack since they all imbue his weapon or body part with said AZ ice).

I should mention that Omega should also have some of the abiilities of Awakened Zero, who passively develops to be stronger and stronger as he fights, to the point where he went from being a match for Ultimate Armor X to being completely impervious to his attacks and spam one shot screen wide projectiles back in Genmu Zero- the timeframe was two minutes of in game time for this to happen. This should also upscale from X being able to break out of Vile's electric cage that he couldn't deal with before (he was also dealing no damage to Vile), to breaking out of it without a problem in X1 (though that might need to be fact checked). While I can't say for sure this will be enough to keep up with Metal's AD on its own, when combined with the other points I made it should keep Omega a threat to him.

Like, 6D Time Stop seems like a massive problem here, specially since Eggman's Ego is only against Sonic, it wouldn't really apply here

Does Metal fight differently between his opponents? Might need some examples to be convinced. Though similarly, the Dark Elf can also use its abilities to hack just as fast (it's instant like almost all Hacker Elves, and very in character, like, literally used it before any actual fighting begins- it just didn't work on Zero because Zero just wasn't affected), with its huge amount of layers listed above I'd say that it's just as strong and supports the Inconclusive outcome. That, and the other points I had about Omega

(EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I do want to add another argument about the Dark Elf that, I don't necessarily like it like some of the other ones, but technically the Dark Elf has control over all of Cyberspace and thus the real world, so theoretically you can also claim that it can spawn AZ ice pretty much anywhere or just everywhere much like the other Hacker Elf abilities as another option)

 

[AigerTheKing]

That's for AP

The threshold for a speed blitz is lower than that

How much ?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

How much ?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Heard it was either 7x or 8x. 8x might be for AP

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Heard it was either 7x or 8x. 8x might be for AP

I just said that 8x is for AP. Speed is lower than that. I just don't recall what exactly the standards are

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I just said that 8x is for AP. Speed is lower than that. I just don't recall what exactly the standards are

Its definitely 7x

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Its definitely 7x

This was when the AP gap for a one-shot was 7.5 times. And they said the speed gap was lower than that

 

[Omegabronic]

I guess i'll also vote Incon FRA

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Incon FRA, we'll see if it holds up after Metal gets up to date (probably never, given that'd require the profiles of plenty of other characters to also get updated)

 

[Migue79]

Incon FRA

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Incon FRA and that's grace.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Incon FRA

Same vote

 

[Smashtwig]

Incon FRA, we'll see if it holds up after Metal gets up to date (probably never, given that'd require the profiles of plenty of other characters to also get updated)

I will keep track of that and edit this message for every time an update like that happens- to help do that I'll just summarize the primary points that makes things incon and edit just those as they change over time and how that affects the match

• How Metal's Invul works against Omega's hax, determined that Omega's hax should work
• Metal Copying AP countered by indefinite amps / revives / Jackson
• Overall Speed Amp Levels for both, Omega has omnidirectional attacks / barriers if there is a difference, Omega's Speed Amps are passive and not tied to attacks
• Dark Elf Hacking Layers (and theoretically AZ) and 6D Time Stop cancel each other out as win cons
• Metal having no Layered AZ Resistance, which is one of Omega's primary win conditions that would be used early on (bypassing any AP advantage that may exist)
  • To further elaborate, in case one might argue that "Temperature Hax doesn't have Layers", regardless of how that is judged, Omega has access to Absolute Zero that is able to freeze those who can resist Absolute Zero multiple times over (Tundra Man AZ <(fails to freeze)< Mega Man <( Chill Penguin (Shotgun freezes Spark Mandrill, who like all Reploids is based on X) <= Blizzard Buffalo (has statements of resisting AZ) < Frost Walrus (Freezes Penguin and Buffalo) <= Avalanche Yeti who has an effect on X8 Cast < Zero X8 who resists Drift Diamond < Blizzack Stagroff freezes Z-Era Zero who breaks out after some effort <= Omega's Arc Blade (who has freezing abilities that are similar to Model LX's in the ZX Era)

Other things like Chaos Spear vs Reflection, Ego vs Aggression, AD vs AD arent really as important. But if something changes I'll note that too



Also, grace has ended I believe

 

[JJSliderman]

Bro went straight to layers when Metal doesn’t even have baseline AZ resist

 

[LaserPrecision]

Temperature abilities aren't layered. It'd be like saying someone who uses 100,000 degree flames has layered fire for hurting someone who has 10,000 degree resistance. It just upscales in temperature from AZ. Not that it matters since the result is the same. But just wanted to clarify layers for stuff like ice manip or fire manip aren't a thing. Only more esoteric stuff (It's the same for poison which is based on dosage, and lethality).

 

[Smashtwig]

I wasn't sure myself tbh cuz scientifically you can't really get colder than AZ since temperature is sort of reliant on the atoms moving to be measured which there isn't any in the case of AZ which is why I thought layers would exist for it. But is not my jurisdiction

Also now I gotta edit this one instead since it wasn't the last one comment anymore lol


Here are the summarized points of this match- please read before removing this thread from the Matchups Section of each Character Profile should any changes occur.

• It was determined that Omega's hax should work on Metal's Invulnerability
• Metal Copying AP countered by indefinite amps / revives / Jackson
• Overall Speed Amp Levels for both, Omega has omnidirectional attacks / barriers if there is a difference, Omega's Speed Amps are passive and not tied to attacks
• Dark Elf Hacking Layers (and theoretically AZ) and 6D Time Stop cancel each other out as win cons, as they both essentially happen instantly
• Metal having no Layered AZ Resistance, which is one of Omega's primary win conditions that would be used early on (bypassing any AP advantage that may exist)
  • To further elaborate, in case one might argue that "Temperature Hax doesn't have Layers", regardless of how that is judged, Omega has access to Absolute Zero that is able to freeze those who can resist Absolute Zero multiple times over (Tundra Man AZ <(fails to freeze)< Mega Man <( Chill Penguin (Shotgun freezes Spark Mandrill, who like all Reploids is based on X) <= Blizzard Buffalo (has statements of resisting AZ) < Frost Walrus (Freezes Penguin and Buffalo) <= Avalanche Yeti who has an effect on X8 Cast < Zero X8 who resists Drift Diamond < Blizzack Stagroff freezes Z-Era Zero who breaks out after some effort <= Omega's Arc Blade (who has freezing abilities that are similar to Model LX's in the ZX Era)
  • If Metal can copy Omega's resistance to AZ, the Dark Elf's amps come into play again, we see that Cyber Elves evolve in their abilities from (Crorie in Z4, though she is a special case, shouldn't have anything the Dark Elf cannot do, which is evolve in abilities), so AZ potency can straight up increase over time

Other things like Chaos Spear vs Reflection, Ego vs Aggression, AD vs AD arent really as important. But if something changes I'll note that too