Shapers Ripples CRT + Extras

[AlipheeseXIV]

Hello everyone I'm back with another PGR CRT, this one is gonna be quite a major one so expect a bit of a yap fest. Today's CRT revolves primarily around these 3 profiles Cradle, Vonnegut & Lucia. I'm going to start off with Cradle's profile as it is going to likely be the most contentious one and has the most overall relevance, finally there will be some minor upgrades for Lee, Ishmael & The Hetero Tower.

Spoiler: Tiering Explanation

To start things off, I will first explain their scaling. All 3 characters will be rated as tier L1C and the reason why has to do with the core of the Hetero Tower, now in this previous CRT it was accepted that Luna & Selene would get a L1C rating as a result of Luna being able to effortlessly retrieve her authority from the core of the Tower, as well as Selene & Agent Zero both having the power to build and activate the Gate. Selene was not able to reverse the effects of the core unless she turned Luna into a key, this plays right into Cradle's scaling. As she is able to reverse the effects of the core and corrupt it, denoting baseline L1C scaling pretty easily here. From Cradle, we obviously move to Vonnegut who's scaling is also very clear cut not only is he just comparable to Cradle but a single shield is able to neutralize the attack of the Hetero Tower's core meaning his shields would have to be L1C as well of course. And finally this then chain scales to Lucia who is shown on screen breaking more than a few of those same shields, like I said pretty clear cut and straightforward.

Spoiler: P&A's Explanation

Moving on to the P&A's section, this is where it gets a little contentious particularly with Cradle's Agent Zero key. So as you can see, she will have layered 6D abilities the reason why goes a little like this. So some time ago I had messaged Reiner on site and asked for his opinion with a particular ability of being able to fate hax characters with acausality, they had suggested to just make the fate hax layered which makes sense. Now, the reason all these abilities are layered and not just fate hax is due to the fact that the fate hax from Chaos Contamination is not a single ability. It's fate hax is a biproduct of it's corruption (as it is the original Punishing Virus) which is why it has other layered abilities that are listed on the Punishing Virus core mechanisms. (I will get to showing the feats for fate hax after)

Now, the reason it has layered type 1 concept destruction, law manip, chaos manip & dimensional manip is due to 2 things. The first is because Agent Zero is the creator of the Hetero Tower and...the tower has a lot of these abilities, as it's creator it's only natural she has these same abilities at this level. The second reason is because The Fog, a realm of temporal chaos where time itself doesn't exist was created by both the Hetero Tower & Chaos Contamination. Again, I don't really think this is all that contentious given these scans.

As for the fate hax, here's the deal with that. So Vonnegut says that Chaos Contamination corrupted the time traveler pod in the worldline he came from, and states that if the contaminating memetics are not contained within Gestalt, it would disrupt all forms of information transfer and humanity would face a world where text, language, and even symbols themselves cease to exist. And then when prompted more about what the effects of Chaos Contamination are he says it creates what you might call a "future convergence" effect, those who are corrupted meet the same fate regardless of what changes are made or precautions are taken. With the end result being either death or causing accidents that lead to more deaths and the spread of Chaos Contamination. With Vonnegut even confirming that all the times Lucia and The Commandant attempted to change the future they were not only influenced by Agent Zero but also by Chaos Contamination, which is why they found themselves trapped in repetitive cycles of futility and death.

Now naturally, Lucia would have to have acausality because...if she didn't then she'd just casually erase herself from existence or been largely affected by her changes to the past which she isn't. So, since the fate manip page states that acaus characters render it completely useless this would have to be layered, how many layers it qualifies for? I have no clue. The abilities would be 6D because they are directly related to the Hetero Tower & Gate though because I have no arguments to prove Cradle would scale to the full Gate it'd just be a case of smurf hax. For Cradle...that should be about it, lastly Vonnegut has layered Mind Manip because Cradle resists normal Mind Manip as a result of being a Hetero Creature with countless M.I.N.D's all apart of her consciousness not to mention the Authority of Agent Zero resisting the Ascension Network's pull when she was fused with Selene (which is passive). Anyways that is all for P&A, I will move on to the other stuff now.

Spoiler: Last Few Things

The next thing I'd like to propose is immeasurable speed for the 3 of them, this is also pretty blatant and clear cut. Vonnegut & Lucia in their fight travel back in time and then go forward in time back to the Tower again...that's it. Lol, it scales to Cradle because she fought them both and is more than just relative to the 2 of them.

The last and final thing I'd like to propose are buffs for Lee, Ishmael & The Hetero Tower. So with Shapers Ripples we finally get a scan that confirms Lee is indeed above/not bound by the Gate, as it's stated that Ishmael does not come to greet Cradle (or anyone else) because they are all still bound by the Gate. This should elevate him to 1C as he now finally has proof of "fully scaling" to it. Next, the Tower should also get Chaos Manip (Destabilization & Randomization), and Ishmael by proxy should get these abilities as well because she sees the Gate as a toy and can fully manipulate it. Lastly, all 3 of these profiles should have Space-Time manip (I cannot believe I forgot to add this in the old CRT)

Okay, that is everything to summarize the bulk of changes not directly related to Lucia, Cradle or Vonnegut.

Hetero Tower gets:
- Chaos Manip (Randomization & Destabilization)

- Space-Time Manip, and the other abilities that can cross over from Cradle

Lee gets:
- Space-Time Manip

- Limited Info manip type 1

Ishmael gets:
- Space-Time Manip

- Chaos Manip

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[Voidnether]

I really don't get the first layered part tbh, the mind manip one is obvious since it was shown to overcome a resistance. I think it's around the likes of greater, enhanced or superior abilities instead of them being layered. I also don't really get why they would be BDE1 just because they're not bound by the gate or the Hetero Tower & Chaos Contamination, if it was an in-verse terminology imo it would be best to explain why they get them according to the standards outlined. The rest are probably fine (I just happen to come across this thread and notice the vague things, so I think it would be best if I just give my input here and like no one else is even evaluating this. Not even from a regular member)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I really don't get the first layered part tbh

The first layered part? You mean the layered absorption? That's cuz Agent Authorities can only be wielded by Agents, if you're not an Agent and wield it you die. And in the case of Agent Zero's Authority even other Agents that can wield it get corrupted and eventually lose control of it.

the mind manip one is obvious since it was shown to overcome a resistance. I think it's around the likes of greater, enhanced or superior abilities instead of them being layered.

The only other layered abilities are the one's from the Agent Zero Key and they are textbook layered abilities tbh, the fate manip example aside. It is shown that all those abilities are able to overcome a resistance (the perfect example is none other than Vonnegut) he has resistance to all of Agent Zero's hax but he states that even he can't do anything about it and if the contaminating memetics are released he's also cooked.

I also don't really get why they would be BDE1 just because they're not bound by the gate or the Hetero Tower & Chaos Contamination, if it was an in-verse terminology imo it would be best to explain why they get them according to the standards outlined.

Well the fog is textbook BDE type 1 (lacking spatiotemporal features, aka a space where time does not exist) which is why Vonnegut has BFR & BDE Type 1 because he sends you to the fog. Ishmael would obviously get it cuz she resists it (same with Lee) and the Hetero Tower (specifically the Gate) would have access to it because it's already stated in earlier chapters that it's a space where the concepts of beginning and end don't exist, with time being just a map in the dimension not an actual existing property of it. I guess I should've been a bit clearer when stating exactly HOW they'd get it, I just meant it in general but in most cases it's a resistance and in the case of the Hetero Tower only the Gate, not the lower levels.

The rest are probably fine (I just happen to come across this thread and notice the vague things, so I think it would be best if I just give my input here and like no one else is even evaluating this. Not even from a regular member)

Yeah, nah that's understandable and fine. Verse is dead ash, so this is how most CRT's go after the first few days hopefully we get a response soon lol

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

As for the Chaos Manip, apart from destabilization being pretty obvious. The randomization comes primarily from the Hetero Tower itself, but also from the Red Tide. The Tower is inherently chaotic, and spaces, time, even leaving the tower is so random that later in chapter 32 of the story a character that can simulate two hundred sixty two quadrillion five hundred thirty seven trillion four hundred twelve billion six hundred forty million seven hundred sixty eight thousand seven hundred thirty six worlds are unable to accurately predict when and where the Commandant will exit the Tower. Not to mention these changes aren't caused by anyone or any system, it's just chaotic and follows literally zero set pattern. This then naturally just applies to Cradle because Agent Zero is the creator of the Tower and she is Agent Zero. Even without that though, Chaos Contamination itself is just as chaotic and it's own system is inherently random, with all that I think it fits. The Red Tide also has a few statements in later chapters of being just as chaotic in terms of randomness

 

[Voidnether]

The first layered part? You mean the layered absorption? That's cuz Agent Authorities can only be wielded by Agents, if you're not an Agent and wield it you die. And in the case of Agent Zero's Authority even other Agents that can wield it get corrupted and eventually lose control of it.

The law, concept ones (I'm still trying to read wait)
I misread it as fate lol

 

[Voidnether]

BDE1 is fine then, assuming the law, concept ones derive from Agent Zero which was shown to bypass resistance would also be fine but regarding the fate hax. I don't think it could be layered tho because like effecting someone who operates on an entirely different causality system is unconventional resistance, their fate hax being able to affect that, idk what it would get but it differs im sure

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

BDE1 is fine then, assuming the law, concept ones derive from Agent Zero which was shown to bypass resistance would also be fine but regarding the fate hax. I don't think it could be layered tho because like effecting someone who operates on an entirely different causality system is unconventional resistance, their fate hax being able to affect that, idk what it would get but it differs im sure

Yeah I myself am also not entirely sure tbh, I only denoted layered fate hax because that's what Reiner recommended in site dms. I might need to dig a little further into it though, we'll see ig

 

[Hayato5652]

Hello everyone I'm back with another PGR CRT, this one is gonna be quite a major one so expect a bit of a yap fest. Today's CRT revolves primarily around these 3 profiles Cradle, Vonnegut & Lucia. I'm going to start off with Cradle's profile as it is going to likely be the most contentious one and has the most overall relevance, finally there will be some minor upgrades for Lee, Ishmael & The Hetero Tower.

I agree with this thread.
I just have one question:
Have the profiles of these characters been accepted?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Have the profiles of these characters been accepted?

No, this threads purpose is to get them accepted.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

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[Hayato5652]

We need staff members
I suggest you message the staff members so they can check this thread.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Bump

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

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[Hayato5652]

Did you send a message to the staff members?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Did you send a message to the staff members?

Yeah I did, we're just waiting

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[rogueprestonian]

Bump

 

[Hayato5652]

Bump

You can only say "Bump" once every 12 hours.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

You can only say "Bump" once every 12 hours.

I don't think there's any specific rule abt that

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

This is out of topic but I have a few questions

• Shouldn't Ishmael Observer key has history EE? She erased the Lee's Gate ascending event from history.
• Why was Lee Palefire key tier rated as 6-C? I couldn't find any 6-C calcs but Low 6-B only. Shouldn't Palefire Lee be rated as possibly Low 6-B?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This is out of topic but I have a few questions

• Shouldn't Ishmael Observer key has history EE? She erased the Lee's Gate ascending event from history.

I'm not adding that kinda stuff in this CRT, the main thing I was adding for Ishmael, Lee & Tower were minor upgrades that are directly tied to stuff from shapers ripples. I will make an Ishmael focused CRT after this one since wither to shine is out on global now

• Why was Lee Palefire key tier rated as 6-C? I couldn't find any 6-C calcs but Low 6-B only. Shouldn't Palefire Lee be rated as possibly Low 6-B?

No, there are no such calcs to rate Palefire at L6B. As he nearly died against blood lusted Rosetta and is not shown dealing any dmg to her at all (despite him attacking her constantly throughout their fight) 6C was denoted because it's the closest possible thing that can be given through some rough chain scaling

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

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[Hayato5652]

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[Hayato5652]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

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[AlipheeseXIV]

I'm hoping this is like not against the rules or anything cuz the thread is dead, but I quickly went back into Vonnegut's profile and added portal creation.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

• BFR & Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1; Can send and trap people in the Fog, a realm of temporal chaos where time itself doesn't exist)
  • Dimensional Manipulation (Vonnegut describes the Fog as a world stripped to just 2 dimensions, or if the Commandant could imagine themselves existing 2 dimensionally)

If the Fog is a 2-dimensional world then it can't have BDE1, which is the lack of any spatial feature. Just lacking time isn't enough either. You also dont get BDE1 just because you send someone into a BDE1 place, unless the character and the structure are one or smth like that.

The next thing I'd like to propose is immeasurable speed for the 3 of them, this is also pretty blatant and clear cut. Vonnegut & Lucia in their fight travel back in time and then go forward in time back to the Tower again

Maybe this scan is just missing context but Im not seeing anything here that indicates they are moving through different time periods. And they also seem to be using portals which makes me think it's just standard time travel.

So some time ago I had messaged Reiner on site and asked for his opinion with a particular ability of being able to fate hax characters with acausality, they had suggested to just make the fate hax layered which makes sense

In my opinion this wouldn't be layered fatehax but a kind of interaction feat since it just means they work under a different system of fate, not that they have a resistance to their fate being manipulated. You could just list it in the profile as "Acausality Negation (Type 4. Reasoning here)", if you wish.

• Abstract Existence (Type 2; Is unkillable and practically invincible so long as she's within the Hetero Tower)

It only says that she is invincible in the scan, not really unkillable. This would be Empowerment without further context.

The rest of the OP seems ok.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

If the Fog is a 2-dimensional world then it can't have BDE1, which is the lack of any spatial feature. Just lacking time isn't enough either.

BDE type 1 says that they can lack spatiotemporal features but aren't superior to them in nature so shouldn't it be possible for a 2D world to have it? Also it's not that the Fog is 2 dimensional just that it's been stripped to just 2 dimensions. I know just lacking time isn't enough, it is both aspatial and atemporal, can prove it with the Gate which has no concept of beginning or end, with time being just a map in it. As well as this scan where Agent Zero clearly states that she'll push them behind the Gate, which would support it being BDE Type 1.

You also dont get BDE1 just because you send someone into a BDE1 place, unless the character and the structure are one or smth like that.

I should've been clearer, The Hetero Tower gets BDE1 because of the Gate literally lacking aspatial & atemporal features (as I showed above). Ishmael gets it because she exists beyond the Gate (if that's not good enough proof, then this in particular can be ignored until I make the CRT featuring her cuz I don't want to send too many scans from later chapters) For Lee, he would get it as a resistance not an ability.

Maybe this scan is just missing context but I'm not seeing anything here that indicates they are moving through different time periods.

They are indeed moving through different time periods, the scan is just lacking context (admittingly, the context is hard to provide because it's a show don't tell kind of thing) but Lucia's frame she uses in the scene where she's fighting Alpha is from Kowloong (chapter 12 before she even gets Plume) that was over 3 years ago in the game's story.

And they also seem to be using portals which makes me think it's just standard time travel.

Well they are still shown physically travelling in a void like wormhole to go from the past to the future, it's not like they're instantly travelling from point A to point B. I also saw that portal feats of this kind are fine to use, since this calc from Pokemon S&M uses a very similar concept to get a high rating of speed. Solgaleo & Lunala both travel in the space inside the ultra wormholes (same way Vonnegut & Lucia travel inside the space of the portal)

In my opinion this wouldn't be layered fatehax but a kind of interaction feat since it just means they work under a different system of fate, not that they have a resistance to their fate being manipulated. You could just list it in the profile as "Acausality Negation (Type 4. Reasoning here)", if you wish.

Okay this seems reasonable, I didn't know what else to do anyways.

It only says that she is invincible in the scan, not really unkillable. This would be Empowerment without further context.

"As long as I'm near the Tower, I can't possibly die." There are various other statements and feats on her profile that clarify her immortality (the main reason for her immortality is her existence as Agent Zero, the creator and owner of the Hetero Tower) That is much clearer, I'll be sure to add this as justification.

The rest of the OP seems ok.

Nice

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

so shouldn't it be possible for a 2D world to have it?

Also it's not that the Fog is 2 dimensional just that it's been stripped to just 2 dimensions

A 2-D world still has dimensions so not really. A BDE1 realm would have no dimensions (not even 0-D, just completely undimensioned)

can prove it with the Gate which has no concept of beginning or end, with time being just a map in it

This is just a fancy way of saying the structure is infinite, not really related to the quality of being aspatial.

Ishmael gets it because she exists beyond the Gate

Yeah I dont think existing beyond a BDE1 structure makes you BDE1 yourself. Plus, going by the profile, Ishmael seems to be very much a higher-dimensional being, which kinda goes against the nature of BDE1.

They are indeed moving through different time periods, the scan is just lacking context (admittingly, the context is hard to provide because it's a show don't tell kind of thing) but Lucia's frame she uses in the scene where she's fighting Alpha is from Kowloong (chapter 12 before she even gets Plume) that was over 3 years ago in the game's story.

Well they are still shown physically travelling in a void like wormhole to go from the past to the future, it's not like they're instantly travelling from point A to point B. I also saw that portal feats of this kind are fine to use, since this calc from Pokemon S&M uses a very similar concept to get a high rating of speed. Solgaleo & Lunala both travel in the space inside the ultra wormholes (same way Vonnegut & Lucia travel inside the space of the portal)

Ok then.

"As long as I'm near the Tower, I can't possibly die." There are various other statements and feats on her profile that clarify her immortality (the main reason for her immortality is her existence as Agent Zero, the creator and owner of the Hetero Tower) That is much clearer, I'll be sure to add this as justification.

Looks fine.

 

[Hayato5652]

Yeah I dont think existing beyond a BDE1 structure makes you BDE1 yourself. Plus, going by the profile, Ishmael seems to be very much a higher-dimensional being, which kinda goes against the nature of BDE1

The claim that Ishmael has Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 seems somewhat contradictory. BDE Type 1, by definition, refers to entities that are independent of all dimensions, including space-time. They do not exist within any dimensional structure and are not bound by space-time.

However, if Ishmael, as a Watcher, is explicitly stated or demonstrated to be completely separate from space, time, and dimensionality itself (not just above or beyond it), then she could indeed qualify for Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1.

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

he

*She

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

A 2-D world still has dimensions so not really. A BDE1 realm would have no dimensions (not even 0-D, just completely undimensioned)

This is just a fancy way of saying the structure is infinite, not really related to the quality of being aspatial.

I think you misunderstand, it's not just a fancy way of saying the structure is infinite, all of spacetime is just a map in the dimension. With the Fog then being behind the Gate.

Yeah I dont think existing beyond a BDE1 structure makes you BDE1 yourself.

Yeah, idk.

Plus, going by the profile, Ishmael seems to be very much a higher-dimensional being, which kinda goes against the nature of BDE1.

I'm not so sure about that, the page states "Portrayal-wise, they could also be shown viewing a lesser plane as fiction, thus ontologically transcending its dimensions, while still operating on a higher notion of dimensionality native to their greater reality." So I don't see how Ishmael being a higher-dimensional being would in itself disqualify her, though tbf yeah this is for R>F. It also does go on to say "in majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless." Which means exceptions wherein they are not timeless and spaceless should exist. Though I'm not familiar enough with BDE to make any major arguments, so I'm fine with removing it.

Ok then.

Looks fine.

Alright

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The claim that Ishmael has Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1 seems somewhat contradictory. BDE Type 1, by definition, refers to entities that are independent of all dimensions, including space-time. They do not exist within any dimensional structure and are not bound by space-time.

Well that's exactly what she is actually.

However, if Ishmael, as a Watcher, is explicitly stated or demonstrated to be completely separate from space, time, and dimensionality itself (not just above or beyond it), then she could indeed qualify for Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 1.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the BDE1 page it doesn't actually require a character to be separate from dimensionality (just time and space), they don't necessarily need to be superior either, it just states that "they're simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power." But, idk maybe the wording is just...not reflective of what the ability is meant to do