DDLC: fixing and updating everything

[FinePoint]

Spoiler: Snip

Basically, after that you delete Monika in Act 3, she'll remain deleted for the rest of the game, including. However, if you attempt to insert a copy of her .chr file back, she'll say something about her not wanting to have her heart toyed with again and delete the file herself.

For the reset.sh stuff, that stuff happens only when Monika deletes the game through directly deleting all the files, which then, unlike when it happened at the end of Act 3, she wouldn't be able to restore the reality as the files are lacking entirely in that case.

My main argument is that she can indeed the universe on a Low 2-C degree without deleting the file of the game, as she mentions that time does not exist anymore in Act 3, and alongside the fact that Monika mentions that "nothing exists anymore", I interpret it as being a void without time, which would go in line with the "destroying the universe over and over" statement above.

I agree that I could've worded the argument better in OP, but the full explanation is in the sandbox in the new profile that I linked above.

Monika mentions that she can get in danger if something happens to her character file multiple times, but when it actually happens, Monika describes it as painful, but doesn't truly disappear, existing as just a glicthed mess that happens when the game tries to interpret deleted characters.

Isn't reducing everything to a timeless void enough? Because a timeline cannot really exist without time, especially as a void.


They explicitly are, yes. Especially when deleting the flow of time in the game does not impact the Player, implying that each VM is its own space-time continuum.

Just for clarity, does Act 3 refer to the original ending of the game (which I played), and Act 4 refer to additional content which happens only in DDLC+?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just for clarity, does Act 3 refer to the original ending of the game (which I played), and Act 4 refer to additional content which happens only in DDLC+?

Act 1: The game at the "normal state" before Sayori dies.
Act 2: The game at the "creepy part" after Sayori's deletion.
Act 3: The "Just Monika" part that needs you to delete Monika to proceed.
Act 4: The end of the game after that Monika is deleted and Sayori gets her place.

They're all in the vanilla DDLC already, the Plus just officially named these as such.

 

[FinePoint]

Act 1: The game at the "normal state" before Sayori dies.
Act 2: The game at the "creepy part" after Sayori's deletion.
Act 3: The "Just Monika" part that needs you to delete Monika to proceed.
Act 4: The end of the game after that Monika is deleted and Sayori gets her place.

They're all in the vanilla DDLC already, the Plus just officially named these as such.

Alright.

I think I see what you are saying now, but let me confirm:

You are claiming that since time doesn't exist in Act 3, then Monika must have not only destroyed all the matter to create a void, but also the timeline.
Therefore, her and the surroundings simultaneously do and don't exist in the traditional sense, therefore NEP.

In addition, since she destroyed the entire timeline, but the files still existed, that the files must be Type 1 concepts which are independent from the game universe, and since she manipulates these she has Type 1 Concept Manipulation.

Do I have everything right and in logical order now?

 

[StrymULTRA]

You are claiming that since time doesn't exist in Act 3, then Monika must have not only destroyed all the matter to create a void, but also the timeline.
Therefore, her and the surroundings simultaneously do and don't exist in the traditional sense, therefore NEP.

Basically yes.

In addition, since she destroyed the entire timeline, but the files still existed, that the files must be Type 1 concepts which are independent from the game universe, and since she manipulates these she has Type 1 Concept Manipulation.

This also, aye.

 

[FinePoint]

Basically yes.

This also, aye.

Alright. Now I must think critically about it.

Since time doesn't exist in Act 3, then Monika must have not only destroyed all the matter to create a void, but also the timeline.
Therefore, her and the surroundings simultaneously do and don't exist in the traditional sense, therefore NEP.

If we assume the first thing is true, it doesn't necessarily mean the second thing is true. She could have destroyed time, but then reintroduced normal things to the timeless void left behind. Therefore, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable claiming it's NEP without a statement of such.

In addition, since she destroyed the entire timeline, but the files still existed, that the files must be Type 1 concepts which are independent from the game universe, and since she manipulates these she has Type 1 Concept Manipulation.

The tricky part is that the Low 2-C universe thing I mentioned is really just one potential example, and the actual definition of a Type 1 concept is vaguer than that and can apply to larger scales. "Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern."

Therefore, she only has Type 1 concept manipulation if the concept she manipulated governed in particular the Low 2-C universe she destroyed, and not a higher structure which it happened to be apart of (2-C, for example.)

In the context of a video game, the files literally govern anything in the game. Since the game evidently includes more than one universe, we can't actually say that the files only govern the Low 2-C reality she destroyed, and so her destruction of it not affecting the files is not definite proof of a Type 1 concept. We would need her to destroy all of reality, including the other universes, all at once, then still have it not affect the files.

Therefore, since we can't say for certain, we should go with the safer assumption which requires less evidence, which is Type 2 conceptual manipulation.

So, in conclusion:
I concede that there is not definite evidence refuting these claims.
However, I still do not see enough evidence to comfortably say this is a case of NEP 2 and Type 1 Concept Manipulation.
I hope my explanation for that decision is more satisfactory to you now, at least.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If we assume the first thing is true, it doesn't necessarily mean the second thing is true. She could have destroyed time, but then reintroduced normal things to the timeless void left behind. Therefore, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable claiming it's NEP without a statement of such.

That "could" is something I dislike. It's an assumption after all, we see Monika claiming that nothing is left there, and we see that we see literally nothing after that she's deleted, implying that the thing is a void, and everything that was there was "added" through her data manipulation.

Besides not existing is always NEP, what are you even talking about? "Both existing and not existing" is a form of NEP here (Nature 3) for one, second you're basically introducing stuff without a real basis to invalidate this.

Therefore, she only has Type 1 concept manipulation if the concept she manipulated governed in particular the Low 2-C universe she destroyed, and not a higher structure which it happened to be apart of (2-C, for example.)

Monika's universe is confined within the boundaries of her Virtual Machine. While the MES has multiple of them, resetting one VM does not do anything to the others in the server, especially when one of them is a copy of the DDLC universe where Monika never gained her 4th wall awareness, and it's stated to be an alternate timeline entirely from Dan.

This is coupled by the fact that the MES states that Monika destroyed the universe in the same context where they talk about these timelines and describe them as universes. Monika's destroying the timeline and then recreating it isn't limited to just what happened in the game, but also in these experiments, and none of these deleted the files like in Act 4.

We would need her to destroy all of reality, including the other universes, all at once, then still have it not affect the files.

Which is what I am describing above, ye.

 

[FinePoint]

That "could" is something I dislike. It's an assumption after all, we see Monika claiming that nothing is left there, and we see that we see literally nothing after that she's deleted, implying that the thing is a void.

Besides not existing is always NEP, what are you even talking about? "Both existing and not existing" is a form of NEP here (Nature 3) for one, second you're basically introducing stuff without a real basis to invalidate this.

I'm saying I don't know if she did exist and not exist, or if she just deleted everything except herself, which feels more like the intention.
She just wanted you alone with her forever, not to ascend to some paradoxical form.

Monika's universe is confined within the boundaries of her Virtual Machine. While the MES has multiple of them, resetting one VM does not do anything to the others in the server, especially when one of them is a copy of the DDLC universe where Monika never gained her 4th wall awareness, and it's stated to be an alternate timeline entirely from Dan.

This is coupled by the fact that the MES states that Monika destroyed the universe in the same context where they talk about these timelines and describe them as universes. Monika's destroying the timeline and then recreating it isn't limited to just what happened in the game, but also in these experiments, and none of these deleted the files like in Act 4.

Which is what I am describing above, ye.

And so therefore each VM has its own files which control only specifically their universe, I see what you are saying.

In that case, I suppose we do have evidence that they're Type 1 concepts, given the entire universe they govern can be destroyed yet they can persist.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm saying I don't know if she did exist and not exist, or if she just deleted everything except herself, which feels more like the intention.
She just wanted you alone with her forever, not to ascend to some paradoxical form.

And so therefore each VM has its own files which control only specifically their universe, I see what you are saying.

In that case, I suppose we do have evidence that they're Type 1 concepts, given the entire universe they govern can be destroyed yet they can persist.

So, if I understand correctly.

You're saying that you're ok with the "destruction/creation" thing as evidence for CM1 but not the Void stuff?

And if the answer is yes, here's another question: given that the game should still be able to process a state where the timeline within is destroyed, would still at least give a "likely/possibly" for NEP 2? As the game has to still process the void left after the destruction of the universe prior to Monika's recreation, given that she'd still need the "place" (that being the files of the game) where to do this, her non-file deleted state would be something beyond both existence and the conventional nonexistence.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Monika mentions that she'll be fine as long as there's a backup of her character file, and she tries to reach that when we delete her only to realize that there's no copy of said character anywhere in the game. So it's far more likely that she made back-ups of the files prior to deleting them due to self-doubt, but that wouldn't really affect the main game as they're not registered by the main story anymore.

BTW for this, I was mainly talking about character stuff still lingering/existing around even after she deleted their files. Do you have the scan for this? Because if they still exist in some way, that kinda... is bad. Although idk what you mean by "not registered by the main story anymore".

Additionally, even after reading the replies, I'm still in the stance that NEP2 is, eh. The void stuff is really weak, and the "nothing is left" being meant as in everything is pretty much gone (except the classroom, stars, etc... which is, according to my understanding, is being handwaved by "Monika's Data Manipulation"), not that there is a literal void of nothingness, and somehow that Files contain the very concept of nothingness, or just normal nothingness, even. Although people might disagree with my argument, but personally, I just find it very weak to assume for an ability that's NEP2 (please don't bring other verses, I couldn't care less about them. If they are accepted while this is not, you are free to try to downgrade them)

Files stuff being type 1, eh. I'm neutral, leaning towards agreement, like before. I personally don't think files are concepts at all (I think majority is just, info2, with no need for concepts tbh), ngl, but since they are currently accepted as such, my stance is what I stated.

Athletic stuff, I honestly do not see the problem. I agree with a full rating for that.

 

[FinePoint]

So, if I understand correctly.

You're saying that you're ok with the "destruction/creation" thing as evidence for CM1 but not the Void stuff?

And if the answer is yes, here's another question: given that the game should still be able to process a state where the timeline within is destroyed, would still at least give a "likely/possibly" for NEP 2? As the game has to still process the void left after the destruction of the universe prior to Monika's recreation, given that she'd still need the "place" (that being the files of the game) where to do this, her non-file deleted state would be something beyond both existence and the conventional nonexistence.

Isn't the whole thing that her file specifically still exists, hence why we need to delete it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

BTW for this, I was mainly talking about character stuff still lingering/existing around even after she deleted their files. Do you have the scan for this? Because if they still exist in some way, that kinda... is bad. Although idk what you mean by "not registered by the main story anymore".

Monika always mentions that they're deleted, and that simply deleting them from the "character" folder does the trick.

Plus the effects are the same, as:

• When Monika deleted Sayori from the "characters" folder, as also shown in the game's actual folder, the game's main menu to glitches, as while prior to Sayori's deletion it featured all the four girls, after that it replaces her sprite with a glitched and distorted mess made of pieces of the other three. In a normal run, Sayori appears as the first character of the story and presented as the playable character's childhood friend, with no issues in the game's functions However, in a run without her file, the game starts to glitch when it tries to acknowledge her existence, as shown by the fact that her name, actions and dialogue in the whole UI are all replaced by random letters and symbols, with the glitching becoming worse when the game attempt to load her sprite, causing it to crash and then then reboot, with this time the playable character not making any mention of Sayori at all. Sayori being erased from the story, is made more evident the more the new run progresses, as while in the normal run she's the Vice-President of a Literature Club with already 4 members, in the altered run Yuri is instead, with the Literature Club having only 3 members before the playable character joins it.
• When you delete Monika, with her sprite becomes a glitched mess and her name a bunch of random letters, causing her to disappear entirely from the main menu and Sayori to always have been the Club President instead.

And Monika had no backup unlike the other girls, meaning that she actually did truly delete them while still having a copy of them somewhere else outside the game's system.

Isn't the whole thing that her file specifically still exists, hence why we need to delete it?

I mean the Nonexistent form of Monika when you delete her file, given that she can still fully act without it despite the fact that the game does not have her anymore in the story like I explained above to Riki. I am arguing that files make both existence and conventional nonexistence (that being the void left after that Monika destroys the timeline before remaking it), and her deleted state would be beyond both as it does not have any file at all.

 

[FinePoint]

I mean the Nonexistent form of Monika when you delete her file, given that she can still fully act without it despite the fact that the game does not have her anymore in the story like I explained above to Riki. I am arguing that files make both existence and conventional nonexistence (that being the void left after that Monika destroys the timeline before remaking it), and her deleted state would be beyond both as it does not have any file at all.

I'm fine with her having NEP in that form, but I think it should be Type 3, not 2.

She supposedly doesn't exist, but is able to still use her abilities to remake the game, which is the exact paradox Type 3 describes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm fine with her having NEP in that form, but I think it should be Type 3, not 2.

She supposedly doesn't exist, but is able to still use her abilities to remake the game, which is the exact paradox Type 3 describes.

This does not work, because this paradox thing it's the very basis of any form of NEP. It's literally the first line in the page.

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

You're also misinterpreting what Type 3 is.

Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

Type 3 would require Monika to exist within the story and be unaffected from character deletion even in the script even without the character file, but it CAN'T be the case because Monika clearly cannot be recognized from the game and does not exist anymore in the story in Act 4 (hence why Sayori is the president to begin with there). It'd require Monika to have a character file that acts as nonexistent only deletion is attempted, but we see Monika not existing at all after said deletion.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm fine with her having NEP in that form, but I think it should be Type 3, not 2.

She supposedly doesn't exist, but is able to still use her abilities to remake the game, which is the exact paradox Type 3 describes.

Eh... tbf, Nonexistent characters, even NEP2, can (at least some of them) interact with reality.

Type 3 needs quite a direct statement, like literal "existent and non-existent" stuff. Being able to interact with reality wouldn't really disqualify NEP2.

Also, iirc, she is already accepted as NEP. What is being proposed is her NEP1 being upgraded to NEP2, due to the world being a "void", or more accurately, nothing is left, and Styrm is arguing that means "Void" is a thing in the verse, since nothing is left, and they'd be included in the verse since she mentioned that nothing is left, and therefore, she becomes NEP2 since her file gets erased, with the files containing the world which apparently contains that "void".

Edit: I also found the statement I've been looking after looking around for a bit, tho not the vid;

"You know what's kind of creepy?"
"Even though I deleted everyone else's files, I can still kind of feel them..."
"It's like all their lines are still lingering in the air, whispering in the back of my head."
"Imagine if after someone you knew died, you just started hearing their voice in your head."
"Maybe I just wasn't thorough enough..."
"But I'm too afraid to delete anything else, because I might really break things."

Though this could be argued that this is just Monika's paranoia or some shit, the self-doubt or whatever. Though it is kind of weird, does anyone have the vid or the context for this? I think this could be handwaved with Monika's self-doubt or whatever, but I'd appreciate the scan.

 

[FinePoint]

This does not work, because this paradox thing it's the very basis of any form of NEP. It's literally the first line in the page.

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

You're also misinterpreting what Type 3 is.

Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.

Type 3 would require Monika to exist within the story and be unaffected from character deletion even in the script even without the character file, but it CAN'T be the case because Monika clearly cannot be recognized from the game and does not exist anymore in the story in Act 4 (hence why Sayori is the president to begin with there). It'd require Monika to have a character file that acts as nonexistent only deletion is attempted, but we see Monika not existing at all after said deletion.

You are correct, my apologies. I misread the second line.
I don't have the best memory, so I don't have the definitions memorized.
Therefore I often re-read them during revisions but I evidently did so too fast this time.

Looking over the types far more carefully this time, it definitely qualifies for at least Type 1.

For clarity, if existing is 1, and not existing is 0, it seems the chart is:
Type 1: 0
Type 2: Neither
Type 3: Both

I'm not sure we have any evidence she achieved a new state entirely, only that she no longer existed then was able to use an ability anyway, which would fit with Type 1.

And obviously in this context the aspects would be Conceptual and Information.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm not sure we have any evidence she achieved a new state entirely, only that she no longer existed then was able to use an ability anyway, which would fit with Type 1.

I am arguing that Files would be neither 1 or 0 in terms of binary scale because:

• Universe existing: 1
• Universe being destroyed: 0

Both 1 and 0 here are still part of the game's code, as the latter still exists and can process when the universe is destroyed, then remade.

However, when Monika is deleted, she stops being part of the game entirely, because the latter cannot even process her anymore unlike the case above. She can't even be 0 in this case as that is still recognized from the game, but she can't anymore.

 

[Rikimarox2]

The evidence for the new state is that she got erased in terms of files, and files, according to the CRT and Styrm, contain the world after everything got destroyed, which apparently means that "Nothingness" is a thing in the verse.

So, files would contain;
Existence: 1
Non-existence/Void/Nothingness: 0

And monika being erased from both, therefore being neither 1 or 0.

Since that means Files contain both existence and non-existence (The normal world, and the "void"), and Monika got erased from the files which contains these, she'll be a new state since she got erased from something that contains both of these things.

Whether it is truly nep2 or not, that's up to you. I don't think it is enough, personally, but regardless, I've basically summed up the argument above. She's already accepted as NEP1, fyi.

 

[FinePoint]

Spoiler: Snip

I am arguing that Files would be neither 1 or 0 in terms of binary scale because:

• Universe existing: 1
• Universe being destroyed: 0

Both 1 and 0 here are still part of the game's code, as the latter still exists and can process when the universe is destroyed, then remade.

However, when Monika is deleted, she stops being part of the game entirely, because the latter cannot even process her anymore unlike the case above. She can't even be 0 in this case as that is still recognized from the game, but she can't anymore.

Spoiler: Snip

The evidence for the new state is that she got erased in terms of files, and files, according to the CRT and Styrm, contain the world after everything got destroyed, which apparently means that "Nothingness" is a thing in the verse.

So, files would contain;
Existence: 1
Non-existence/Void/Nothingness: 0

And monika being erased from both, therefore being neither 1 or 0.

Since that means Files contain both existence and non-existence (The normal world, and the "void"), and Monika got erased from the files which contains these, she'll be a new state since she got erased from something that contains both of these things.

Whether it is truly nep2 or not, that's up to you. I don't think it is enough, personally, but regardless, I've basically summed up the argument above. She's already accepted as NEP1, fyi.

Thank you for all your help, friends.
It is refreshing to have so much support and patience on such a complicated topic in a revision, even when I make a mistake.

I suppose I did already concede that the files are Type 1 concepts, and therefore govern both the destroyed and existing universes.
Therefore, being deleted at that level is to be deleted on a level more complex than just material, which I believe would qualify for NEP 2.

So, in conclusion, you guys have convinced me.

I'll support Type 1 Concept Manipulation and NEP 2 (for Monika post-deletion).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well alright-y.

I'll support Type 1 Concept Manipulation and NEP 2 (for Monika post-deletion).

As for the other two staffs who commented here:

I'll look at this after work.

Horrible.

Would you guys rethink about these after reading the conversation from here?

Also forgot to update the vote tally lmao.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Very nice. So the tally for now for Type 1 and NEP2, I believe, is:

Agreement with Type 1 and NEP2: @FinePoint
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus (Shares my view, apparently, so neutral with Type 1)
Disagree: @Mr. Bambu (His agenda made him disagree with Type 1 and NEP2), @DarkDragonMedeus (Similar to me, disagrees with NEP2, iirc)

I think we just need a few more staff to get their opinion on this, and that should be it. Maybe make the current staff revisit the arguments.

As for other bluenames users;
Agrees:
Neutral: @Rikimarox2 (Neutral on type 1), @SweetDao (Same as DDM, so Neutral on type 1 as well)
Disagrees: @Rikimarox2 (I currently disagree with NEP2, as I don't think it's, really, close enough to qualify), @SweetDao (Same as DDM)

Everything else, I agree mostly. Though just remember, for the abilities about NEP2 and HGR, I disagree with the NEP2 stuff, and neutral on High-Godly due to soul shenanigans (though they are kinda silly, but would like elaboration on it)

 

[StrymULTRA]

@DarkDragonMedeus (Similar to me, disagrees with NEP2, iirc)

TBF was hesitant at including DDM at 1st as he didn't say on what he agreed, just on a "majority" (plus he didn't answer some of my questions unlike FinePoint).

I have included all of these in the vote tally for the sake of being correct, with DDM being the same as what you've voted, however I'd like him to still give an answer on what he agrees with you.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

10-A Monika

Im with Bambu here. "10-B, possibly 10-A" should work.

Nature 2 NEP, Type 1 Concept and Void Manipulation​

Makes sense to me.

Speed

Going with Option 1 here.

Cosmology and Range
Monika haxes addition
reset.sh is busted lol
Weakness and Intelligence removal​

Sure.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just for clarity, does Act 3 refer to the original ending of the game (which I played), and Act 4 refer to additional content which happens only in DDLC+?

Sure.

Ok so, I have realized that most of the confusion here stemmed by the fact that almost none of the users here know the context of Plus (which is surprising to me at least).

I have initially have made a prototype of a blog that was supposed to be in the profiles before I just scrapped it in favor of this explanation in the sandbox of the new profile's version.

I wonder if just replacing the explanation with a hyperlink to the blog that is also a brief summary of all the arguments, or, to add a side note saying "for more information regarding the nature of the files see [this blog]" would solve this issue.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyways, I interpreted the scene as her barely hanging on and it being painful as shit, with her eventually truly disappearing afterwards. Though I guess my interpretation could be flawed

Irrelevant to the discussion but wanting to add this as I completely forgot about it, also just to inform you.

The events of DDLC Plus canonically happen in 2019, but as you can see, Monika is well active on her twitter account a lot of time after that. While this does sound a bit too meta, her twitter account is canon and mentioned in-verse twice, given that a MES employee even created it for her.

The most likely interpretation here is that after the last time the game was played as all the possible data was obtained, regardless of it being still left with the compromised state of Act 4 or not, Monika was finally "left alone" and was capable to return, given that the MES had no longer use for her so she could just do whatever she wanted after the events of the game.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ok so, I have realized that most of the confusion here stemmed by the fact that almost none of the users here know the context of Plus (which is surprising to me at least).

I have initially have made a prototype of a blog that was supposed to be in the profiles before I just scrapped it in favor of this explanation in the sandbox of the new profile's version.

I wonder if just replacing the explanation with a hyperlink to the blog that is also a brief summary of all the arguments, or, to add a side note saying "for more information regarding the nature of the files see [this blog]" would solve this issue.

I think the Blog is just, way better, ngl. The second is the best, I think, ie add a note for people to check the blog.

Irrelevant to the discussion but wanting to add this as I completely forgot about it, also just to inform you.

The events of DDLC Plus canonically happen in 2019, but as you can see, Monika is well active on her twitter account a lot of time after that. While this does sound a bit too meta, her twitter account is canon and mentioned in-verse twice, given that a MES employee even created it for her.

The most likely interpretation here is that after the last time the game was played as all the possible data was obtained, regardless of it being still left with the compromised state of Act 4 or not, Monika was finally "left alone" and was capable to return, given that the MES had no longer use for her so she could just do whatever she wanted after the events of the game.

Very well. I'm still a bit iffy on it, honestly, but I think this makes it quite a bit clearer, thanks.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think NEP 2 and Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 looks good now.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think NEP 2 and Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 looks good now.

Alr. Would Void manip be ok too here, basing on Monika reducing stuff to a void without time and plot in Act 3 before deleting everything, even the files themselves, at the ending?

I have initially have made a prototype of a blog that was supposed to be in the profiles before I just scrapped it in favor of this explanation in the sandbox of the new profile's version.

I wonder if just replacing the explanation with a hyperlink to the blog that is also a brief summary of all the arguments, or, to add a side note saying "for more information regarding the nature of the files see [this blog]" would solve this issue.

Also, what about this?

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, if they accept NEP2, that by default should also include Void Manipulation, no? Since NEP2 depends on the void shenanigans in-verse, and if NEP2 is accepted, that means they accept reducing even that void. Unless "Erasing" a void doesn't qualify for Void Manipulation, and is EE instead, but I doubt it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, if they accept NEP2, that by default should also include Void Manipulation, no? Since NEP2 depends on the void shenanigans in-verse, and if NEP2 is accepted, that means they accept reducing even that void. Unless "Erasing" a void doesn't qualify for Void Manipulation, and is EE instead, but I doubt it.

Was only being sure given that on the internet you never know.

Regardless, as 3 staff vs 1 agreed with the major points of the CM1/NEP 2 stuff, the 10-A was accepted as a "possibly", and everything else sans speed was accepted without opposition, I'll apply later on the changes.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Alrighty, I think we only need Bambu's opinion now after the new notes. Or is it not needed since 3 staff agree, even if another staff disagrees and there are new notes?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alrighty, I think we only need Bambu's opposition now after the new notes. Or is it not needed since 3 staff agree, even if another staff disagrees and there are new notes?

2 staff agreements with no disagreements were always enough, and a ratio of 3-1 is not any different.

That coupled with the fact that Bambu didn't answer to the new points for NEP 2 and CM 1 despite the other 3 staff did kinda seals the deal imo.

 

[FinePoint]

Ok so, I have realized that most of the confusion here stemmed by the fact that almost none of the users here know the context of Plus (which is surprising to me at least).

Well, for me at least, DDLC was already a good, self-contained story.
So when they released DDLC+ (especially with that name) I assumed it was just some very minor additions, and not worth playing the game again for.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

2 staff agreements with no disagreements were always enough

This is incorrect. For controversial abilities such as NEP and concept stuff, you need at least 3 votes.

2 staff agreements with no disagreements were always enough, and a ratio of 3-1 is not any different.

That coupled with the fact that Bambu didn't answer to the new points for NEP 2 and CM 1 despite the other 3 staff did kinda seals the deal imo.

This is also incorrect. It depends completely on the evaluating staff if they deem it enough as is. Depending on the topic and discussion, a 2 vote lead can be deemed not enough, requiring at least 3 to satisfy the original 3 vote needs.

That coupled with the fact that Bambu didn't answer to the new points for NEP 2 and CM 1 despite the other 3 staff did kinda seals the deal imo.

This also depends. If another admin says that Bambu's disagreement is not enough and/or it's deemed invalidated through new arguments, then that's that. However, when handling disagreements, if neither side backdown, a higher ranking staff member (in this case, a Bureaucrat) would need to come to settle the thread. Of course, this is case-by-case, but those are the official rulings.

So the thread can be settled as is if Bambu finds himself outvoted or DDM gives the go ahead (or me, but since I'm not familiar with the series, I prefer not to vote).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just right when I am about to apply the revisions this happens eh?

This is also incorrect. It depends completely on the evaluating staff if they deem it enough as is. Depending on the topic and discussion, a 2 vote lead can be deemed not enough, requiring at least 3 to satisfy the original 3 vote needs.

And there are literally 3 votes in favor, what?

This also depends. If another admin says that Bambu's disagreement is not enough and/or it's deemed invalidated through new arguments, then that's that. However, when handling disagreements, if neither side backdown, a higher ranking staff member (in this case, a Bureaucrat) would need to come to settle the thread. Of course, this is case-by-case, but those are the official rulings.

So the thread can be settled as is if Bambu finds himself outvoted or DDM gives the go ahead (or me, but since I'm not familiar with the series, I prefer not to vote).

Bambu viewed the thread multiple times after the new arguments were made, (which convinced DDM despite his initial disagreement too) but he didn't show up. While it's preferable that he comes directly to confirm, I'd like to not have a thread hung up indefinitely because a single staff said no then doesn't come back.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just right when I am about to apply the revisions this happens eh?

And there are literally 3 votes in favor, what?

Bambu viewed the thread multiple times after the new arguments were made, (which convinced DDM despite his initial disagreement too) but he didn't show up. While it's preferable that he comes directly to confirm, I'd like to not have a thread hung up indefinitely because a staff said "no" then doesn't come back.

I am explanation to you the rules.

If DDM doesn't give the go ahead, wait another day for Bambu's confirmation. If he doesn't come, you have my permission to apply it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I sincerely, genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, ******* hate discussions like this

I still don't know if I can get behind the idea of void manip, here. The idea is, that the game still contains the world after all has been deleted (or the universes have been destroyed, per the wording of those in-game emails). With the evidence provided, though, I'm not sure I agree that the universes are literally destroyed (as in, rendered nonexistent); I think much of what is in them is destroyed, obviously- I think time no longer exists and I think the vast majority of existence was erased. But I don't know if it's enough for me to agree that it meets the requirements of a full void. This has obvious implications to the rest of the assertions in that bit of the CRT.

Bambu viewed the thread multiple times after the new arguments were made, (which convinced DDM despite his initial disagreement too) but he didn't show up. While it's preferable that he comes directly to confirm, I'd like to not have a thread hung up indefinitely because a single staff said no then doesn't come back.

...I had been typing a reply, only to get dragged to another discussion, only to then get dragged to a third, even worse discussion, etc. I only dedicate so much time to the site a day, man, and a lot of that is consumed by high priority stuff.

I don't really care if the CRT leaves me outvoted, but if I came to the thread and viewed it, it can generally be assumed I at least started to reply. Scout's honor, promise.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Sorry Bambu for dragging you into Anime slop. Would love to bring Agnaa to this slop as well, but he doesn't read Message Walls sadly.

Regardless, after reading Bambu's response, I'm actually a bit conflicted as well (for type 1, specifically), due to the whole "universe" destroying shtick, when it's a bit vague, and it could be just like Bambu said, or just screwed up really hard via file shenanigans (Monika's Reality Warp stuff), rather than an actual, completely erased universe.

I would love more feats showcasing that it is complete erasure, but given that Files already erase everything when destroyed (hence methinking it being an actual portrayal of universe erasure rather than what is being argued in the op, ie Monika being able to erase everything), and that I don't think we have ever seen Monika actually erase anything without using the file stuff, and that I don't think there are more feats for this, I'm iffy about it. Of course, Styrm is more than welcome to clear this up, especially if there are more feats, but this is my stance rn.

Put me in disagreement for type 1 rn. NEP2 and Void stuff too, obviously. I doubt it would change anything since I'm not staff and majority already seem to agree, but might as well say it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I sincerely, genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, ******* hate discussions like this

Truuuuuu

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

(Been a while since I have looked at anything DDLC related, anyway)

Monika becomes 10-A

Makes sense to me

Monika and Sayori's NEP becomes from Nature 1 to 2, their Concept hax becomes Type 1 and File Manipulation gets Void stuff

I think I’m neutral on this for now

Monika and Sayori's range becomes 2-C (2 or 3 universes) and the MES gets >=3 universes in their AP

I also agree with this

Lots of new hax, including the fact that NEP becomes something akin to Optional Equipment

Yeah, this also makes sense

MES and Player get the fact that they can erase and negate permanently the regeneration of NEP 2 beings

Agreed

Monika's weakness gets removed

Agreed

Sayori loses her Above Average intelligence

Agreed

Speed​

Probably the most controversial part of the revision is the speed. I personally ain't even sure of the arguments myself, as the line is REALLY blurry.

Monika's physical movements are unbothered by the state of the game, as she's perfectly fine when the game crashes or is stopped, and it's probably implied that Monika isn't affected from the fast-foward option.

I think it's clear that her movements are unbound from time, so here are 3 options:

1. All of these are resistances and nothing else, keep her at Average Human speed lol.
2. Unknown speed to show her becoming unbound from the game's processing speed unlike the other characters, only that the degree of this is purely unquantifiable.
3. Infinite if we take her being completely unbound from the flow of time in her movements (though this is likely wank as timeless voids don't give speed here, but something tell me that it's different here. Or not, I don't care if this gets rejected)

Yeah I disagree with this, sounds more like resistances to me.