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Son Goku (SDBH) vs Sonic the Hedgehog [0-0-0]
Ebihara
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i think that makes the most sense if we are equalzing everything else. I dont think it should just come down to who has more layers then.
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Given that Super Sonic's Resistances are far above Goku's Hax Layers?
What about Vice Versa
What about Vice Versa
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Goku's resistances prolly have more layers. But Sonic's are again; more abstract. So all of Super Sonic's hax are affecting him. Stuff like his passive empathic manip, time manip, power null, etc.
In-character tho, Sonic's going to go hand-to-hand, and typically uses hax against trickier opponents, or opponents he wishes to spare (For example, he used the empathic manip to remove the turmoil from Chaos' heart, causing him to de-transform and stop fighting and pass into the afterlife peacefully). But Sonic could honestly get it done with hand-to-hand alone. Hax aren't likely to come into the equation unless Goku forces his hand.
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Again, abstraction and potency are separate things.
You're not resisting layers of potency via layers of abstraction, and viceversa. You can't intersect the two.
You're not resisting layers of potency via layers of abstraction, and viceversa. You can't intersect the two.
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They aren't intersecting. No one said they did. Just said that abstraction > potency. Which is true. Has always been the case. It's even stated as such on the linked page and the excerpt Omega highlighted in his earlier post.
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Yes you are as one is fundamentally more potent than the other, Potency Layers are simply stronger versions of the same hax, Order of Aspects dictate which fundamentally govern other aspects, if you resist the concept that makes Information even function and have its properties to begin with, you resist any type of Information manip, as what makes information even work, in nature, is being resisted
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Glad there is discussion here
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The Wiki has never treated abstraction and potency as interchangeable. Feel free to make a CRT to change that. Until then, I won't argue this any further.
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Can't believe that Goku is losing even against restricted Sonic
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I mean... it does? I literally linked the text on the page that says that and further explained the logic as to why it that is the case, i don't need to make a CRT for something already accepted
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And no one here treated them as interchangeable? This is like the third time I've said this. Who are you even disagreeing with? I've said like 3 or 4 times by now that the two are separate concepts. And even before you came here I argued for two pages the two are different. They aren't interchangeable because abstraction takes priority.
Feel free not to argue further. Because even I'm not really sure why you are when we seem to be in agreement.
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Something something, Believe it, something something Naruto.
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@LaserPrecision Saying they’re separate while using one to define supremacy over the other is no different than treating them as functionally interchangeable.
You can't claim abstraction "takes priority" and then say you're not conflating the two. Priority in what metric? Verses don’t share a common cosmological structure. What counts as “more abstract” or “more fundamental” varies wildly from verse to verse (and this is explicitly stated in the Metaphysical Aspects page). So unless VSBW is imposing a universal hierarchy across fictional works (which it isn't), abstraction ≠ potency. You can't even cross-scale metaphysical aspects like that, let alone completely different properties.
@Omegabronic Potency layers deal with “how strong” a hax is; Order of Aspects deals with “which aspect influences which.” They run in parallel, not in series. What you're claiming is Abstraction > Potency, which is not accepted anywhere. We've always treated the two separately.
You can't claim abstraction "takes priority" and then say you're not conflating the two. Priority in what metric? Verses don’t share a common cosmological structure. What counts as “more abstract” or “more fundamental” varies wildly from verse to verse (and this is explicitly stated in the Metaphysical Aspects page). So unless VSBW is imposing a universal hierarchy across fictional works (which it isn't), abstraction ≠ potency. You can't even cross-scale metaphysical aspects like that, let alone completely different properties.
@Omegabronic Potency layers deal with “how strong” a hax is; Order of Aspects deals with “which aspect influences which.” They run in parallel, not in series. What you're claiming is Abstraction > Potency, which is not accepted anywhere. We've always treated the two separately.
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The page actually does give rules as to how such powers interact in VS Debating settings on this site:
Metaphysical Aspects
The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list...
vsbattles.fandom.com
In this case, Sonic does clarify, Concepts > Info type 2, Plot, History and Laws, so as such, layers are irrelevant, as the Aspect itself controls them on a fundamental level, and shapes them:
Aka layers of potency do not matter here, as they are still simply a property of the Info Manip, which is entirely shaped and controlled by the higher Aspect in the Order of Aspects
You’re not engaging with the core of what I’m showing you, the Metaphysical Aspects page literally explains that if a fictional work defines one metaphysical aspect as governing another, then that hierarchy applies, it’s not a universal standard being imposed, it’s the verse’s own structure being respected.
You’re reading the part about "no default order" and stopping there, but the very next sentence gives the condition: if the fiction defines it, then that order is applied. That’s what’s happening here
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Omega, you're conflating metaphysical hierarchy with potency layers. The Metaphysical Aspects page you're quoting does indeed mention that certain metaphysical aspects govern others, but it doesn't establish that higher aspects inherently carry more potency.
What you're missing is the distinction between how abilities interact and how powerful they are. The page is about how different abilities affect each other based on the structure of the verse, not about ranking them by potency. There is no mention of potency layers or how one would ‘beat’ another because of this structure.
The key part here is “If the fiction defines it”. That’s where you’re getting mixed up. It says the structure applies to how abilities interact based on the verse's logic, not that higher concepts automatically have more potency. So even if a verse says Concepts > Info, that doesn't mean Concept manipulation is stronger, it just means it’s more fundamental.
Layered potency isn't referenced here. this is about how abilities interact with each other in a clash between metaphysical aspects (NPI type stuff). That’s not the same as saying one has inherent power over the other, just that they affect each other differently.
You’re essentially trying to enforce a standard that doesn’t exist in the page you’re quoting.
This is where equalization falls apart. The Wiki’s rules clearly forbid giving one verse an advantage based on its own internal logic, when equalizing. If the verses don’t share a similar internal logic, you can’t simply apply one verse's rules to another.
You can't forcefully equalize completely different things. It's like saying Bleach’s robots have souls, so other verses should follow Bleach's rules during vs matches where the latter is involved.
And for instance, a Staff member disagrees with your notion.
What you're missing is the distinction between how abilities interact and how powerful they are. The page is about how different abilities affect each other based on the structure of the verse, not about ranking them by potency. There is no mention of potency layers or how one would ‘beat’ another because of this structure.
The key part here is “If the fiction defines it”. That’s where you’re getting mixed up. It says the structure applies to how abilities interact based on the verse's logic, not that higher concepts automatically have more potency. So even if a verse says Concepts > Info, that doesn't mean Concept manipulation is stronger, it just means it’s more fundamental.
Layered potency isn't referenced here. this is about how abilities interact with each other in a clash between metaphysical aspects (NPI type stuff). That’s not the same as saying one has inherent power over the other, just that they affect each other differently.
You’re essentially trying to enforce a standard that doesn’t exist in the page you’re quoting.
This is where equalization falls apart. The Wiki’s rules clearly forbid giving one verse an advantage based on its own internal logic, when equalizing. If the verses don’t share a similar internal logic, you can’t simply apply one verse's rules to another.
You can't forcefully equalize completely different things. It's like saying Bleach’s robots have souls, so other verses should follow Bleach's rules during vs matches where the latter is involved.
And for instance, a Staff member disagrees with your notion.
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Things don't need to be interchangeable for supremacy to be defined. This is like arguing a king and a chef are interchangeable because a King ranks higher in the hierarchy. The conclusion you're drawing doesn't have a logical conclusion.
You can't really bring up the "Not ever verse has the same cosmological structure" argument, because for the sake of vs battles, we assume character's abilities work like usual despite being in the real world and not in their normal environment. So arguing it varies from verse to verse is an irrelevant point. A metaphysical property being more abstract in one verse is going to be useful in crossverse battles, because they are capable of manipulating something wholly more complex in nature. In the same way a person who resists conceptual erasure isn't going to be affected by regular ass layered physical erasure of molecules, someone who resists erasure on an numerously more infinitely complex/essential structure isn't going to be affected by some erasure that does the same thing on a lesser level.
Metaphysical hax are treated as essentially being 1-A by default now, and having a quality rather than a quantity. And JUST like how quantity used to make you immune to layered hax (Resistance to 4D hax used to give you immunity to 3D hax), higher QUALITY also makes you immune to layered hax (Being more fundamental in nature). If you don't agree I dunno what to tell you other then be upset about this being a normal practice for years now.
The information there seems to entail that this would be the interaction in crossverse battles since it mentions that concept hax and plot hax aren't treated as being able to negate the other, unless the other one has a feat of being more fundamental (and thus being able to control) the other. So saying it has no bearing in cross-verse matches is a bit dishonest.
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No? I also said that it wasn't Layered Hax? He is agreeing with me if anything
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If Concept > Law, then Law cannot affect Concept, but Concept can freely affect Law
The example on the page is LITERALLY about how Concept Hax would inherently beat Law hax because of the Order of Aspects(In the case of Concepts ordering Laws of course)
It is indeed talking about how abbilities affects eachother based on what a verse defines... that is literally the basis of my argument, it also says HOW they interact based on what the verse stablishes
Again, never talked about Potency Layers, being more fundamental is literally why it is "stronger"
If the verse defines how the interaction works, that is how we will treat it here, Sonic clarifies how the interaction goes, so the problem you are saying here is non existent
Potency is about quantity, Fundamentality is about Quality, you are right in that they are not the same thing... but that hardly matters for the argument, the page even gives the example showing how one would be "superior" to the other via what the Order of Aspects the verse defines
NPI? The first example shows Concepts as > Laws, one incapable of affecting the other as one reigns and rules how the other functions, you are oversimplifying things
It is about one having power over the other, yes, this is verbatim stated
Not at all, the page says the oposite
Not forceful, doing exactly as the page says to do
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@LaserPrecision No, metaphysical hax isn’t “1-A by default”. That was explicitly addressed in other threads. What actually changed is that you can't call something smurf unless it's 1-A or above and meets specific criteria, not that metaphysical hax are suddenly treated as 1-A. Also, worst example you could've made. Higher-D resistance doesn’t auto-cover lower-d conceptual hax, and vice versa; quantitative and qualitative differences are still treated separately. You’re using logic that’s never been standard on this wiki, and definitely all but "The norm in years".
And yeah, maybe dial it back with the “dishonest” stuff. Disagreement isn’t deception.
Anyways, staff will be coming to clarify this whole ordeal soon, hopefully. We're going in circles.
And yeah, maybe dial it back with the “dishonest” stuff. Disagreement isn’t deception.
Anyways, staff will be coming to clarify this whole ordeal soon, hopefully. We're going in circles.
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Literally what part of this has been the norm on the wiki? Literally when on the wiki have we accepted the standards that something more fundamental equates to being uninteractable when these abilities are by design not easily interactable by conventional means? None of this remotely refutes the layered hax argument in question and is a non sequitur of a point to make. Idk why you keep saying this in versus threads but an ability being more fundamental than others doesn't make it bypass layered hax when it's not higher dimensional by nature.
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The page verbatim says that being more fundamental makes one aspect uninteractable while being able to affect the other just fine
The Metaphysical Aspects page literally says what we have been saying
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What you quoted is the default assumption that they cannot be interacted unless proven otherwise, that’s it. Also what part of that has any correlation to ignoring layered hax? Because this doesn’t have anything to do with layered hax in the first place.
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No it isn't?
Here it says, with the example of Concepts > Laws, that being more fundamental allows it to rule over laws and that laws can't do the oposite, as Concepts would be above them in the Order of Aspects
Since one has superiority over the other, one rules what the other does and is immune to the lesser aspect, which is made clearer by the other paragraph
Aka, if one of the verses defines the Order of Aspects and how they interact, that is how one decides which has superiority, in thr same sense as the first example
The page talks about superiority of which Aspect is immune and can freely reign over the other, with it also saying how to handle crossverse interaction, it isn't simply about one interacting with the other, it is about superiority
How would simple layers bypass a fundamental difference? One is about potency, the other is about nature
Having mode layers to Law hax won't suddently change its nature to manipulate what reigns and defines what the Law hax does to begin with, as it isn't "upgrading" its nature to do so
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So what about concepts and laws have anything to do with information? Because we’re talking about something more fundamental in reality like narrative, info and concepts.
Yeah your quote literally says we don’t assume they can interact with each other unless shown in verse these abilities can clash with one another. If you wanna push this idea of being more fundamental means uninteractable, then prove the verse operates with that logic, because you’re making a massive assumption on a power set with not much evidence.
Layers bypass one’s resistances, simple as that, whether or not something is fundamental doesn’t have any say in what’s being resisted because you’re comparing apples to oranges here.
Yeah your quote literally says we don’t assume they can interact with each other unless shown in verse these abilities can clash with one another. If you wanna push this idea of being more fundamental means uninteractable, then prove the verse operates with that logic, because you’re making a massive assumption on a power set with not much evidence.
Layers bypass one’s resistances, simple as that, whether or not something is fundamental doesn’t have any say in what’s being resisted because you’re comparing apples to oranges here.
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Nothing? The page uses that relation as an example of how Metaphysical Aspects Orders work, as you know... Laws are equally Metaphysical Aspects as Info, Concepts, Plot, etc are
Without a verse specifying, Laws are just as fundamental as these others Aspects
Yeah? What does that have do with it also explicitly showing that superiority of one over the other is possible?
Yeah, normally we don't assume any have superiority or similarity... unless the verse in questions shows the relationships between them via the Order of Aspects, which is the case here
I... already did? That's already accepted in Sonic for its Concepts, we already have an Order of Aspects for the verse
If it is more fundamental, aka if one rules how the other works, then you can't change it with a inferior Aspect in the order, as the Concept > Law example in the page verbatim says, as you cannot fundamentally change what is ruling what you fundamentally do
No i am not? One Aspect is simply doing exactly what the other is... on a more fundamental level/better... the page says as much, you denying that is going against what is currently accepted
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Superiority doesn't equate to being uninteractable, does Sonic as a series specify that being the case where one cannot affect the other or is it just assumptions because of a higher power? Saying there's an order of aspects for the verse doesn't mean that they're by default uninteractable because of said superiority unless that's literally how it's shown, especially with the lack of higher dimensional superiority for these abilities, I don't see why layered hax is by default invalidated when he doesn't have the resistances to get by it.
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... when have i said as such? In this context it means you can't as the first example and explanation in the page of how the order works says that a lower aspect can't control or affect the superior one... obviously not all cases of superiority for all haxes means uninteractable
Yes, in fact, Illunima gained ND cause the lower aspects couldn't affect her, but that's neither here or there, the page also says as much, you didn't covered that part of my argument yet
and "power"? I am not talking about AP here
yes it does as the Metaphysical Aspects page LITERALLY says as much in the very first paragraph of the section in question
I already explained why, layers are potency, Order of Aspects are nature, just as in a setting where Concepts define Laws(example from the Metaphysical Aspects page) one cannot use Law Manip to control or affect Concepts
Look, if you want to continue, you have to address that first paragraph i have been quoting, else this talk cannor go anywhere and will be left in circles
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I’m not talking about AP either, I’m talking about just general hierarchy of which power, whether it’s concept, info or history hax is considered superior since we don’t assume they’re superior over the other. Also lower aspects not affecting her doesn’t really tell me much on Nonduality, that just sounds like resistance more than anything.
Which first paragraph are you referring to? And again what part of that has any correlation to layered hax? These two aren’t remotely comparable to one another.
Which first paragraph are you referring to? And again what part of that has any correlation to layered hax? These two aren’t remotely comparable to one another.
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i see, my mistake
there's more context, but point is, it is accepted that lower accepts can't affect higher ones
This one
One is, in nature, more potent than the other, as one shapes everything the other does, if you can resist the very fundamental thing that even allows a hax to function, you resist that hax, as you resist the very nature of how said hax works
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I’ve already responded to that point, Law hax has no correlation to something like info or plot hax where those by default aren’t assumed to be superior over one another, hence why the High-Godly page considers all of those fundamental aspects to be equal.
That’s not how that works. That’s no different than saying being able to resist matter hax that can control everything in the universe allows you to resist everything from the universe from Poison to Disease and so much more, which is a massive NLF. This’ll be my last post here but idk where you got this idea that something more fundamental means you just resist everything else by default as that’s not how it works here.
That’s not how that works. That’s no different than saying being able to resist matter hax that can control everything in the universe allows you to resist everything from the universe from Poison to Disease and so much more, which is a massive NLF. This’ll be my last post here but idk where you got this idea that something more fundamental means you just resist everything else by default as that’s not how it works here.
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Law hax is not considered "inferior" to any other aspect, hence why the Metaphysical Aspects page says that there is no order to metaphysical aspects by default
Regardless, that doesn't matter, as that example is what the page show as the Order of Aspects, it is how an inferior one "interacts" with the higher one, so even assuming Law hax is inferior by default... it is still being used to illustrate how lower aspects cannot affect higher ones at all
If matter hax can control the very nature of how poison works, it would be a metaphysical aspect at that point, which circles back to the problem at hand
Laws, Concepts, Plot, etc, all Metaphysical Aspects shape and control reality in the same way, Matter and Poison hax are completely different in relation to eachother, it doesn't make sense to make that comparison
Not "everything else" just "every aspect(which all do the same thing) which it defines and reigns over"
It is how it works, that is how it is written in the page, a lower aspect can't affect a higher one due to being less fundamental
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Oh this fight ain't over.
Bump
Bump
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Chat, I think the fight may be over.
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Nooooo.
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