Invincible: 5-A Upgrade Re-Take + Tech Jacket scaling chain

[LegendariumOfLies]

I don't even know what we are arguing over anymore.

 

[Theglassman12]

@StoneKillerz12 @Chariot190 Both of you calm the hell down. There's a way to express your disagreements on the scaling in a series and being hostile towards one another is not helping either side here.

 

[Chariot190]

I would very much love to comment on the other shit but that would seem to piss some mods off so eh.

I don't know what you're talking about with me "ruining it", you literally have been engaging in the same thing with me, in fact, in both CRTS you've been the one to respond with college thesis level responses, I've only been responding with equally long posts.

Ruin it, as in ruin your own proposal. Your arguments contradict each other, or contradict current accepted standards for the verse.

The only reason I've "ruined it" is because you cannot handle hearing my stance and me challenging yours.

No it very much means you need to go overrule those, they're all currently accepted. Your arguments conflict with multiple accepted things. Just like anyone else, any other verse, you need to get that shit out of the way first.
Like you can't argue things like heat slop, proportional reactions, and speed shit, because they go against what we have accepted right now, you need to change those first.

No, I do not have to make any of those CRTs just because you continue to disagree, and we both sure as hell know you'll never agree with any of those either regardless of what I say if I made them, so your continuing to gaslight and pretend you have some moral highground.

You do. If your arguments contradict any of those, and those are, in fact, accepted, well, you literally do that;'s the rules?

And you're right, I probably wouldn't agree, unless you randomly pulled out some cool objective piece of info I missed, then maybe I would.
But that doesn't matter, they're accepted, if your current proposals contradict them, tough luck, just how the wiki works.

And I'm getting real ******* sick of the gaslit buzzword.

Sorry, I'll continue replying and defending my stance, whether you think I've "ruined it" or not.

Except you need a new calc to be proposed, a new CRT given the original proposal for this one is bunk by your own admission and probably not something most mods want to even read at this point to eval, and need to actively go CRT several other things now because your argument hinges on them not being the case unless you somehow find a new way to argue this without relying on conflicting with any of those pieces of info.

 

[Dalesean027]

While both do need to keep things more civil i will i do for now agree with chariot here

 

[StoneKillerz12]

So real quick, does calling someone "obtuse" repeatedly not blatantly count as an insult now? IDK about you, but I remember "obtuse" being an insult.

 

[Dalesean027]

So real quick, does calling someone "obtuse" repeatedly not blatantly count as an insult now? IDK about you, but I remember "obtuse" being an insult.

No? Saying someone is being obtuse just means they are unwilling to accept something and/or not picking on something that's being said its not an insult per say


Regardless both of you have been warned just get back on topic and formulate your arguments in 1 concise point for staff eval

 

[StoneKillerz12]

No? Saying someone is being obtuse just means they are unwilling to accept something and/or not picking on something that's being said its not an insult per say


Regardless both of you have been warned just get back on topic and formulate your arguments in 1 concise point for staff eval

The very definition of Obtuse is implying someone lacks intelligence. Look it up please.

 

[Chariot190]

I'd argue saying don't be obtuse is not the same as saying someone is obtuse.
But rather that acting in such a way that implicates ignorance when the person in question evidently gets the point, is acting in that way not that they are that way
nice try tho, I might come off as an asshole but I do word what i say very carefully.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1070940734380847195/1070941475761836052/Untitled521_20230202233338.png?ex=6817a638&is=681654b8&hm=c575a4f89da3264529def3baf5f66ef8011694cbde8d9b8ab2052ae90728eb78&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=313&height=313
Anyway, were we not stopping that, I thought we were stopping.

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, both sides need to chill out, but regardless I’m siding with Chariot on this one though him making me read a ******* Bible of a post almost had me vote against him smh

 

[FusionPrime0]

Ok so summarizing your discussion since you guys kinda lost the focus of what you're discussing. The original 5-A upgrade at the beginning of the thread has been conceded by @StoneKillerz12 but him and I both think a timeframe for the feat should be used, since the debris was launched a very far distance in a single panel, way more than what it would've been at escape velocity. Chariot agrees that it could be way faster than escape velocity, but doesn't want to make up a timeframe for the feat, instead wanting to wait for the show to cover it. And only considering assuming a timeframe if the show presents the feat very differently than the comic. I have also been arguing with Chariot on whether we can scale the Viltrumites to a fraction of the GBE of Viltrum.

 

[Dalesean027]

though him making me read a ******* Bible of a post almost had me vote against him smh

Literally knew that first page was cooked when the scrollbar barely moved as I started going down the page

 

[Chariot190]

Ok so summarizing your discussion since you guys kinda lost the focus of what you're discussing. The original 5-A upgrade at the beginning of the thread has been conceded by @StoneKillerz12 but him and I both think a timeframe for the feat should be used, since the debris was launched a very far distance in a single panel, way more than what it would've been at escape velocity. Chariot agrees that it could be way faster than escape velocity, but doesn't want to make up a timeframe for the feat, instead wanting to wait for the show to cover it. And only considering assuming a timeframe if the show presents the feat very differently than the comic. I have also been arguing with Chariot on whether we can scale the Viltrumites to a fraction of the GBE of Viltrum.

For reference, I have nothing against the timeframe being higher, I'm just against baseless guesswork. There doesn't exist an actual concrete timeframe we can use.
The show is probably gonna make it dumb as shit anyway, I can't see the actual ejected upheaval being longer than a few seconds.
But that's then, this is now, atm we have **** all to work with beyond "I think it might it be this".

Like just calc the planet's size via density/gravity for now, get a nice lil upgrade that way, and then wait till the show inevitably makes that shit like some degree of 5-B+ to 5-A.

As for GBE im pretty sure you posted a scan that proved its GBE wasn't overcome as ****** up as it is, the debris form a ring and gases and debris seem to be forming a cloud in the middle, thing the planet mightve been blown up but the actual GBE wasn't overcome otherwise it shouldn't be doing that.

 

[FusionPrime0]

If it isn't, then we can attempt to figure something out. But as it stands, all this guesswork, mental gymnastics bullshit? To much, to often.

We can cross that bridge if and when it happens.

For reference, I have nothing against the timeframe being higher, I'm just against baseless guesswork. There doesn't exist an actual concrete timeframe we can use.
The show is probably gonna make it dumb as shit anyway, I can't see the actual ejected upheaval being longer than a few seconds.
But that's then, this is now, atm we have **** all to work with beyond "I think it might it be this".

You literally state yourself that you can't see the ejection of the crust being longer than a few seconds. We have a decent lower limit for the feat.
I think that if we are going to eventually change the result if the show gives us a useable timeframe or not then it'd be better to go through all that now. When the show rolls around we can apply the timeframe from it if the feat matches up with the comic close enough, but if it doesn't then we'd already have gone through estimating a conservative timeframe and wouldn't need 2 separate CRT's for the show and comic at the same time.
But if others disagree I can really argue against it.

Like just calc the planet's size via density/gravity for now, get a nice lil upgrade that way, and then wait till the show inevitably makes that shit like some degree of 5-B+ to 5-A.

If we aren't going to accept a timeframe right now or scaling off the GBE then we can do this.

As for GBE im pretty sure you posted a scan that proved its GBE wasn't overcome as ****** up as it is, the debris form a ring and gases and debris seem to be forming a cloud in the middle, thing the planet mightve been blown up but the actual GBE wasn't overcome otherwise it shouldn't be doing that.

It's kind of hard to tell from that singular panel if the debris is actually reforming or is still slowly moving away from where the planet once was. If it gets accepted that the panel proves the GBE wasn't overcome then we can just gut my entire argument about scaling off the GBE.

The core mind you is the majority of a planet's mass but that's beside the point.

It's only 32.5% of Earth's mass (Viltrum is stated to be in a solar system much like our own and is the only planet in the solar system to our knowledge to harbor life)

That isn't at all what it means, it's this type of shit is what I mean.
Where do they say that? How would you know?

We're talking about a gun that can destroy anything apparently, can cause things' GBE to go wild, eject violently, etc.
What does it mean to be destabilized as you just said?Is them plowing through a destabilized core what initiated all that? Very well could be. We already know it causes thing's GBE to eject violently, so what happens if you do that to a planet's core? Could it explode? Very well might. So how would you even split that up? It's no longer just dividing the feat, there's actual wonky interactions going on that complicate it now.

When Space Racer shot the asteroid, Allen only stated that the gun was causing the asteroid to break apart with the pieces being launched outward. It just outputs a lot of force with each blast. The only thing a gun that just outputs a lot of energy can do is break apart, vaporize, or in some other way destroy an object. This means that the "destabilization" only could've caused damage the core of the planet. In my calculation I took the most extreme interpretation for the damage done to the core with the info we have. There is no wonky interactions here. The gun couldn't cause the core to explode on its own so the most it could've done to the core is overcome its GBE. The Viltrumites had to have provided the rest of the energy to destroy the mantle and crust.

We also know that Space Racer's gun on its own only caused damage to the core, but not any significant damage to the rest of the planet.

Overcoming the GBE of a planet's core would totally gut the GBE of the rest of the planet lad.

The fact it did it at all, the fact they exploited that, and the combination of two is what initiated the explosion, is why it can't be calced like that.

It's not just "feat divide by 4", what happens when you hit a "destabilized" planetary core that was hit with something that actively guts GBE and causes things to explode or eject debris violently?

Yes it would? Running numbers with earth, removing the core, just the core, nothing else, despite it only taking up about 15%, would gut the GBE by over half.
Now if that core was also messed up, could eject violently and all this other stuff if it was given a good enough hit?

Yeah, nah, literally does negate a bunch of the GBE.

I know it negates some of the GBE, that's literally what I accounted for in my calc. The point is that it doesn't negate ALL of the GBE of the planet.

Now if that core was also messed up, could eject violently and all this other stuff if it was given a good enough hit?

The gun doesn't have any properties to imbue objects with potential energy that would make the destruction of the core be more explosive after the Viltrumites fly through it than what the Viltrumites would be able to output on their own to our knowledge.

As above, for earth alone, that 15% equates to over 54% of the GBE. And that's just basic ignoring, the core in this instance wasn't just ignored, if anything it was like bomb.

Please, if you're going to argue math and calcs, actually fact check this shit first.

The core of planets don't act like bombs. They don't explode with more force than what is transferred to it through an attack and there is no indication that the core blew up with some hidden potential energy it had stored away.

The infinity ray physically could not have done more than overcome the GBE of the core. The Viltrumites had to have generated the rest of the energy required to blow the planet apart.

 

[Chariot190]

You literally state yourself that you can't see the ejection of the crust being longer than a few seconds. We have a decent lower limit for the feat.

And what is a few seconds? 5? 10? 15? 30 even? We don't know, why are we guessing?

At the end of the day "decent lower limit", isn't a decent lower limit, it's a high end, based on guesswork. Just wait for the show.

I think that if we are going to eventually change the result if the show gives us a useable timeframe or not then it'd be better to go through all that now.

No? We literally can't because we don't HAVE said timeframe to work off. We'd just be guessing. What If I said it took 20 seconds, could you prove it didn't take that long? No you couldn't, just as I can't disprove it took 0.001 seconds. We have no idea and no frame of refernce to work on, it's guesswork. We don't guess if we don't have to.

We have a solid low-end, any other verse would just wait for the timeframe to be given instead of jumping the gun. invincible isn't special, ya'll can wait.

When the show rolls around we can apply the timeframe from it if the feat matches up with the comic close enough,

As in, an extra CRT.
As in your argument of there needing to be two CRT's, doesn't matter because no matter what happens a CRT is going to be made.

And why cause people more work? Just wait.

but if it doesn't then we'd already have gone through estimating a conservative timeframe and wouldn't need 2 separate CRT's for the show and comic at the same time.

Yes. Welcome to VSBW were some verses need to wait years to get a timeframe to calc something, look at One Piece.

As it stands, there's no timeframe to work on, literally any value you say can be met with "Actually I think this timeframe works better", and you wouldn't be able to deny it because your time frame would have just as much basis.

And it needing two CRT's doesn't matter, it's gonna happen regardless of if it's usable, if only to say it isn't usable so either way.

It's kind of hard to tell from that singular panel if the debris is actually reforming or is still slowly moving away from where the planet once was. If it gets accepted that the panel proves the GBE wasn't overcome then we can just gut my entire argument about scaling off the GBE.

Wouldn't make much sense, the debris have already began forming a ring, with a gaseous pocket, if it was still spreading, the debris would be spreading omnidirectionally, not outward in the shape of a ring. Shit looks like Metroid ZDR tbh.

It's only 32.5% of Earth's mass (Viltrum is stated to be in a solar system much like our own and is the only planet in the solar system to our knowledge to harbor life)

Yes? that's a lot, that guts GBE.
GBE isn't just mass, density, where the density is located, and so forth all go into it. Turning the densest part of the planet that is also the center of it and where the most of the GBE acts upon into nothing, guts it.

It isn't just "Oh it's 32.5%, so GBE is 32.5% lower", that isn't how that works, much like how KE isn't just "oh you multiply speed by 2, so it's 2x higher", that isn't how the math works. You'd need to use some weird ******* shell formula as an empty center is absolutely tanking it beyond just subtracted volume/mass.

When Space Racer shot the asteroid, Allen only stated that the gun was causing the asteroid to break apart with the pieces being launched outward.

I'm well aware.
Why? You claim "force", but that doesn't align with what's actually shown or how it plays out. There's a demonstrable delay, it just kind of uniformly explodes after a bit, the beam itself did negligible damage penetrating, etc.

It just outputs a lot of force with each blast.

No it doesn't, if that was the case it wouldn't cleanly go through things, yet it did, It went clean through the asteroid at first, yet if it did that via "the force", which mind you is never stated or implied, it would have blown it apart the instant it touched the ground, and violently blew it apart AS it went through it.

Think like a shotgun hitting a watermelon, that shit is gonna explode in a much different way than what actually happened.

Plus, the gun is duraneg, I'm not sure it has ANY force behind it.

The only thing a gun that just outputs a lot of energy can do is break apart, vaporize, or in some other way destroy an object.

Lad it's a cool space gun with duraneg.
You're acting like it's a pistol, it isn't. And even if it was, this is never stated, and most certainly not shown as if it was, it'd have happened in a completely different way.

This means that the "destabilization" only could've caused damage the core of the planet.

Which is good enough to prevent your premise in question.
You need to prove that the magic space gun that causes shit to violently explode just because, destabilizing the center and most dense part of a planet, didn't play a part in the rest of the feat.

In my calculation I took the most extreme interpretation for the damage done to the core with the info we have.

You didn't, you're being generous by pure virtue of assuming that the destabilized core being plowed through didn't have any effect on the rest of the planet exploding.

There is no wonky interactions here.

Yes there is, the problem is we just don't know WHAT said interactions actually are, but we know they exist.
But, all the same, the fact they exist means we can't assume shit.

The gun couldn't cause the core to explode on its own so the most it could've done to the core is overcome its GBE. The Viltrumites had to have provided the rest of the energy to destroy the mantle and crust.

It doesn't need do it by itself, yet the fact remains it happened, it was destabilized, and we're talking comic books where "lmao core bust" = "planet explode" in like every instance ever.
You say "had to have", but that right there is an assumption, you don't know WHAT they did, nor do you know what a destabilized core even entails. And given then gun's existing feats, we have zero reason to take your interpretation (because that's what it is, none of this is actually confirmed anywhere) as fact.

Like I'm not saying that's the case, but it is a just as likely interpretation, which is the problem with arguing interpretations, they aren't objective.

We also know that Space Racer's gun on its own only caused damage to the core, but not any significant damage to the rest of the planet.

You're missing the point, what tf does a DESTABILIZED CORE entail?
A funny magic gun that can shoot through anything, mess up GBE and cause things to sporadically eject outward hits a core. And then 3 planetary goons hit it.
And then what? Why are you assuming this is a linear reaction? it isn't.

Idk about you but I interpret that ala Freeza, messing with the core caused it to explode, popular misconception but a common one regardless. Think of it like punching a bomb to set it off, punching it doesn't mean you scale.

Now is that 100% the case? Nope, I'm interpreting, but then again, so are you. We don't know, we can't pretend to know, so we shouldn't, and instead use what we know for a fact.

I know it negates some of the GBE, that's literally what I accounted for in my calc. The point is that it doesn't negate ALL of the GBE of the planet.

Idk what to tell you, but the math isn't that simple lad.
But as above, you can't scale them to ANY of the GBE without extra info to begin with.

The gun doesn't have any properties to imbue objects with potential energy that would make the destruction of the core be more explosive after the Viltrumites fly through it than what the Viltrumites would be able to output on their own to our knowledge.

Lad, me and you both know that funny planetary core = boom is a super popular misconception.
And secondly, it might? Based on every feat we see of it, the gun has some odd duraneg properties.
Thirdly, it doesn't need to, if the thing it attacks and effects inherently can be volatile, it don't gotta do shit, that's on the actual object. Like if it hit the core of a sun and destabilized that, would we still be arguing this? A destabilized sun core would be extremely volatile.

The core of planets don't act like bombs.

Tell that to every planetary core feat in media.

They don't explode with more force than what is transferred to it through an attack and there is no indication that the core blew up with some hidden potential energy it had stored away.

My dude, the very feat, is idication. And you keep handwaving the fact his gun actually DOES do shit like that. Like stop, based solely no what we are actually told and seen, we know he has a duraneg magic pew pew gun that can shoot through anything, can cause things to sporadically crumble and eject apart, destabilize shit somehow, and that's it. That's all the info. Everything you've argued has been strictly interpretation, or assumptions, and ones I wouldn't even say could be true given what feats it does have and how they play out.

The infinity ray physically could not have done more than overcome the GBE of the core. The Viltrumites had to have generated the rest of the energy required to blow the planet apart.

Please do not use words like "had to have" for what is simply an assumption. It gets tiresome.

I'm going to make this simple, prove it. Fact is we know that the funny gun has some odd properties, it did SOMETHING to the planet beyond just voiding the core, thus to scale them to anything you need to prove what that something even is.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

8-A Invincible because they couldn't survive the surface of the sun.
Can't you justify Planet Viltrum being larger than Earth because it has a ring of dead bodies?
Furthermore, no Sun Disk Calc?

 

[FusionPrime0]

And what is a few seconds? 5? 10? 15? 30 even? We don't know, why are we guessing?

At the end of the day "decent lower limit", isn't a decent lower limit, it's a high end, based on guesswork. Just wait for the show.

No? We literally can't because we don't HAVE said timeframe to work off. We'd just be guessing. What If I said it took 20 seconds, could you prove it didn't take that long? No you couldn't, just as I can't disprove it took 0.001 seconds. We have no idea and no frame of refernce to work on, it's guesswork. We don't guess if we don't have to.

We have a solid low-end, any other verse would just wait for the timeframe to be given instead of jumping the gun. invincible isn't special, ya'll can wait.

As in, an extra CRT.
As in your argument of there needing to be two CRT's, doesn't matter because no matter what happens a CRT is going to be made.

And why cause people more work? Just wait.

Yes. Welcome to VSBW were some verses need to wait years to get a timeframe to calc something, look at One Piece.

As it stands, there's no timeframe to work on, literally any value you say can be met with "Actually I think this timeframe works better", and you wouldn't be able to deny it because your time frame would have just as much basis.

And it needing two CRT's doesn't matter, it's gonna happen regardless of if it's usable, if only to say it isn't usable so either way.

ok fair enough

Wouldn't make much sense, the debris have already began forming a ring, with a gaseous pocket, if it was still spreading, the debris would be spreading omnidirectionally, not outward in the shape of a ring. Shit looks like Metroid ZDR tbh.

I mean the massive ring of dead Viltrumites surrounding the planet could've been the cause of that

Yes? that's a lot, that guts GBE.
GBE isn't just mass, density, where the density is located, and so forth all go into it. Turning the densest part of the planet that is also the center of it and where the most of the GBE acts upon into nothing, guts it.

It isn't just "Oh it's 32.5%, so GBE is 32.5% lower", that isn't how that works, much like how KE isn't just "oh you multiply speed by 2, so it's 2x higher", that isn't how the math works. You'd need to use some weird ******* shell formula as an empty center is absolutely tanking it beyond just subtracted volume/mass.

I mean I found the GBE of the core itself and subtracted that from the total planet's GBE. If that isn't accurate I can try to look into some weird shell formula

I'm well aware.
Why? You claim "force", but that doesn't align with what's actually shown or how it plays out. There's a demonstrable delay, it just kind of uniformly explodes after a bit, the beam itself did negligible damage penetrating, etc.

No it doesn't, if that was the case it wouldn't cleanly go through things, yet it did, It went clean through the asteroid at first, yet if it did that via "the force", which mind you is never stated or implied, it would have blown it apart the instant it touched the ground, and violently blew it apart AS it went through it.

Think like a shotgun hitting a watermelon, that shit is gonna explode in a much different way than what actually happened.

That's a good point, I wasn't really thinking about the delay of the gun. Though we don't have any evidence that additional force applied to an object that is "destabilized" by the gun would multiply the force in any way. Since the gun on its own couldn't do more than destabilize the core on its own, unless there is some multiplication of force, the rest of the energy had to have come from the Viltrumites.

Plus, the gun is duraneg, I'm not sure it has ANY force behind it.

The wiki has the gun at Low 5-B, possibly 4-C so it is currently accepted to have force behind it (plus there's no mention of duraneg), and it can pierce through anything in the universe.

Lad it's a cool space gun with duraneg.
You're acting like it's a pistol, it isn't. And even if it was, this is never stated, and most certainly not shown as if it was, it'd have happened in a completely different way.

Which is good enough to prevent your premise in question.
You need to prove that the magic space gun that causes shit to violently explode just because, destabilizing the center and most dense part of a planet, didn't play a part in the rest of the feat.

The shot on its own only affected the core with the core being able to restabilize fairly quickly, so unless there is some force multiplication or turning the core into a bomb caused by the gun my point has to be true.

Yes there is, the problem is we just don't know WHAT said interactions actually are, but we know they exist.
But, all the same, the fact they exist means we can't assume shit.

We know the gun has a delay on how it affects objects and causes them to break apart, but we don't have evidence that an interaction with the gun would cause an explosion with much greater force being put in to my knowledge.
So basically we aren't using a split of force between the 4 because of the possibility that the gun would multiply the force and cause the core to go off like a bomb.

It doesn't need do it by itself, yet the fact remains it happened, it was destabilized, and we're talking comic books where "lmao core bust" = "planet explode" in like every instance ever.
You say "had to have", but that right there is an assumption, you don't know WHAT they did, nor do you know what a destabilized core even entails. And given then gun's existing feats, we have zero reason to take your interpretation (because that's what it is, none of this is actually confirmed anywhere) as fact.

Like I'm not saying that's the case, but it is a just as likely interpretation, which is the problem with arguing interpretations, they aren't objective.

What feats that would point towards the destabilized core acting like a bomb and multiplying the force from the 4 of them? Just because this kind of thing happens often in fiction doesn't make it the case here.

You're missing the point, what tf does a DESTABILIZED CORE entail?
A funny magic gun that can shoot through anything, mess up GBE and cause things to sporadically eject outward hits a core. And then 3 planetary goons hit it.
And then what? Why are you assuming this is a linear reaction? it isn't.

How do we know it isn't a linear reaction though? A loss of stability doesn't make something that isn't a certain chemical or explosive blow up and release far more energy when force is applied.

Idk about you but I interpret that ala Freeza, messing with the core caused it to explode, popular misconception but a common one regardless. Think of it like punching a bomb to set it off, punching it doesn't mean you scale.

Now is that 100% the case? Nope, I'm interpreting, but then again, so are you. We don't know, we can't pretend to know, so we shouldn't, and instead use what we know for a fact.

At this point the only difference in interpretation we have is in regards to the properties of space racers gun.

Idk what to tell you, but the math isn't that simple lad.
But as above, you can't scale them to ANY of the GBE without extra info to begin with.

I can look into finding the GBE of a structure with a missing center if need be. I was going to get it looked at by a calc group member before I brought it up in a CRT so my bad. If the evaluator finds the method I used not sufficient I will look into changing it to something more accurate.

Lad, me and you both know that funny planetary core = boom is a super popular misconception.
And secondly, it might? Based on every feat we see of it, the gun has some odd duraneg properties.
Thirdly, it doesn't need to, if the thing it attacks and effects inherently can be volatile, it don't gotta do shit, that's on the actual object. Like if it hit the core of a sun and destabilized that, would we still be arguing this? A destabilized sun core would be extremely volatile.

Duraneg =/= a multiplication of force.
The core of a star and a planet are vastly different. Have you ever heard of a planet going an equivalent of Supernova?

Tell that to every planetary core feat in media.

Just because it happens in other media doesn't mean it's the case here.

My dude, the very feat, is idication. And you keep handwaving the fact his gun actually DOES do shit like that. Like stop, based solely no what we are actually told and seen, we know he has a duraneg magic pew pew gun that can shoot through anything, can cause things to sporadically crumble and eject apart, destabilize shit somehow, and that's it. That's all the info. Everything you've argued has been strictly interpretation, or assumptions, and ones I wouldn't even say could be true given what feats it does have and how they play out.

okay, duraneg does not cause a multiplication of force and causing things to crumble and eject apart does not cause a multiplication of force. The only thing that could be interpreted to make the gun cause a multiplication of force is the "destabilization" aspect, and to do so you either have to use the "core of a planet go boom" present in other media or say the core is made of a volatile substance that destabilization would cause the release of energy from. If any sort of multiplication of force or making the core go boom isn't happening then all the gun could've done is void the core.

Please do not use words like "had to have" for what is simply an assumption. It gets tiresome.

okay

I'm going to make this simple, prove it. Fact is we know that the funny gun has some odd properties, it did SOMETHING to the planet beyond just voiding the core, thus to scale them to anything you need to prove what that something even is.

So we aren't doing any sort of scaling to the planet's GBE because the gun did "something" beyond voiding the core. Since it's so vague couldn't we calc the feat while ignoring the "something" and scaling that value to the Viltrumites with an "at most" added to the value, instead of scaling them to a value that makes the "something" caused by space racer's gun be what contributes a large majority of energy/force or whatever to the planet's destruction?

 

[FusionPrime0]

8-A Invincible because they couldn't survive the surface of the sun.
Can't you justify Planet Viltrum being larger than Earth because it has a ring of dead bodies?
Furthermore, no Sun Disk Calc?

@StoneKillerz12 tried that in a previous thread and it got rejected because it was too vague. A planet of almost any size can have a ring, so having one doesn't necessarily mean an upscale in size.
Several people have already made Sun Disk calcs ranging from High 6-A to 5-A (no High 4-C??), I don't know why nothing has been accepted yet.
Slightly unrelated but have these Tech Jacket statements/feats ever been talked about on this wiki??- Universe's Immune System destroying galaxies overtime, Galaxy Sized Bazooka

 

[Tahoy49574]

Several people have already made Sun Disk calcs ranging from High 6-A to 5-A (no High 4-C??), I don't know why nothing has been accepted yet.

The current ones in the site are these two(and given the last comment it can indeed get to Star level) and they disagree with each other, and of course it's all been radio-silence since then

Slightly unrelated but have these Tech Jacket statements/feats ever been talked about on this wiki??- Universe's Immune System destroying galaxies overtime,

inb4 "No timeframe"

 

[FusionPrime0]

The current ones in the site are these two(and given the last comment it can indeed get to Star level) and they disagree with each other, and of course it's all been radio-silence since then

Looking at the comments, the Multi-Continental end of the first one was accepted so idk why it wasn't added to the verse page

inb4 "No timeframe"

"We prepared for centuries as the earliest galaxies were slaughtered one by one"- there's definitely a timeframe, but this CRT is not the place to cover this

 

[Tahoy49574]

Looking at the comments, the Multi-Continental end of the first one was accepted so idk why it wasn't added to the verse page

The update wasn't tho, and again the other calc objects various aspects of it

 

[Chariot190]

ok fair enough

I mean the massive ring of dead Viltrumites surrounding the planet could've been the cause of that

It isn't, that's a thin ring, we can tell that's debris, it's chunky and like 100x wider. You yourself even SAID it was debris too, we can see big chunky rocks in it too.

I mean I found the GBE of the core itself and subtracted that from the total planet's GBE. If that isn't accurate I can try to look into some weird shell formula

It isn't accurate, that ain't how that works. You have the right idea but you need to account for the hollowed mass IN the formula, just subtracting it afterward dont work.

That's a good point, I wasn't really thinking about the delay of the gun. Though we don't have any evidence that additional force applied to an object that is "destabilized" by the gun would multiply the force in any way. Since the gun on its own couldn't do more than destabilize the core on its own, unless there is some multiplication of force, the rest of the energy had to have come from the Viltrumites.

Multiplication has nothing to do with it, it becomes volatile.

The wiki has the gun at Low 5-B, possibly 4-C so it is currently accepted to have force behind it (plus there's no mention of duraneg), and it can pierce through anything in the universe.

there's direct mentions of duraneg.
You LITERALLY just mentioned it yourself in that very post.

The shot on its own only affected the core with the core being able to restabilize fairly quickly, so unless there is some force multiplication or turning the core into a bomb caused by the gun my point has to be true.

No it doesn't? Why are you acting like this. All you have is an interpretation, you don't even know what destabilized means in this context, why are you acting like it has to be one or the other? Fact is, it doesn't. Theres even interpretations we HAVENT brought up that could be just as likely, theres a huge caveat and unknown here we cant reasonably work with.

We know the gun has a delay on how it affects objects and causes them to break apart, but we don't have evidence that an interaction with the gun would cause an explosion with much greater force being put in to my knowledge.

Why would an asteroid violently explode beyond the initial energy of the gun? It's just hax dude.
Now apply that to a core.

So basically we aren't using a split of force between the 4 because of the possibility that the gun would multiply the force and cause the core to go off like a bomb.

Given that's what happened.

What feats that would point towards the destabilized core acting like a bomb and multiplying the force from the 4 of them? Just because this kind of thing happens often in fiction doesn't make it the case here.

It's one of the most common misconceptions evers.
And we are LITERALLY told it "destabilizes the core" via magic gun that causes GBE to go haywire and cause things to explode.

There's literally zero argument here, prove it.
We JUST dont know, it sucks, i wish we did know, but we cant assume stuff like that.

How do we know it isn't a linear reaction though? A loss of stability doesn't make something that isn't a certain chemical or explosive blow up and release far more energy when force is applied.

Given the fact it LITERALLY happened, I can assure you.

At this point the only difference in interpretation we have is in regards to the properties of space racers gun.

Which is the very basis of the feat, as in, pretty damn important.

I can look into finding the GBE of a structure with a missing center if need be. I was going to get it looked at by a calc group member before I brought it up in a CRT so my bad. If the evaluator finds the method I used not sufficient I will look into changing it to something more accurate.

I would like to remind you I used to be a CGM, and the reason I'm not now has nothing to do with the credibility on said subjects.

Like, ignoring the GBE issues, youre on the right track just not quite how it works. The main problem isnt even your calc unlike Stone's, you at least have a decent idea that could be mathematically sound with some tweaking of the math, the main issue comes from context. The math could be right but we still cant use it.

Duraneg =/= a multiplication of force.

Duraneg at all. It's hax, it's magic pew pew gun that causes things to become widely volatile for who knows reason, but the reason doesn't matter, it just does.

The core of a star and a planet are vastly different. Have you ever heard of a planet going an equivalent of Supernova?

Planets don't explode like this. A huge KE strike wouldn't cause an explosion like this, it'd crush the planet.

Just because it happens in other media doesn't mean it's the case here.

It's one of the most common misconceptions ever. The feat involves a destabilized core, from a gun, that causes things to sporadically lose integrity and become volatile.

Now, I'm not saying it's the case, but it very well could be, which is a problem because we're not arguing confirmed facts but rather interpretation.

okay, duraneg does not cause a multiplication of force and causing things to crumble and eject apart does not cause a multiplication of force. The only thing that could be interpreted to make the gun cause a multiplication of force is the "destabilization" aspect, and to do so you either have to use the "core of a planet go boom" present in other media or say the core is made of a volatile substance that destabilization would cause the release of energy from. If any sort of multiplication of force or making the core go boom isn't happening then all the gun could've done is void the core.

Again, why are you acting like it's multiplication of force? It's destabilized. Why even mention it's destabilized?

okay

So we aren't doing any sort of scaling to the planet's GBE because the gun did "something" beyond voiding the core.

Yep pretty much, if we can't completely figure that out, it becomes conjecture.

Since it's so vague couldn't we calc the feat while ignoring the "something" and scaling that value to the Viltrumites with an "at most" added to the value,

At most is used for confirmed upper limits, or scaling cap.

If Mark lifted 1000000000000000 tons but broke his knees while doing it and hurt himself, that's an at most.
Or Techjacket scaling to Viltrumites pre upgrade should actually be an at most given he's stated like ten times to be much weaker and can be easily killed but he can still barely hurt them.

instead of scaling them to a value that makes the "something" caused by space racer's gun be what contributes a large majority of energy/force or whatever to the planet's destruction?

If only we knew lad. Honestly I'd just wait, you know damn well some goon is gonna ask in the Q&A when it happens, as long as it isnt some leading question it should be fine for context.

Several people have already made Sun Disk calcs ranging from High 6-A to 5-A (no High 4-C??), I don't know why nothing has been accepted yet.

You kinda just said why.
In no world should a feat have THAT type of variables at play. Already tells us it's vague or needs a lot of guesswork.

Slightly unrelated but have these Tech Jacket statements/feats ever been talked about on this wiki??- Universe's Immune System destroying galaxies overtime, Galaxy Sized Bazooka

Yes actually, someone tossed those in chat this week. Dude been reading Tech Jacket to find scaling and feats.

Like legit just wait, the show isn't gonna be this huge different feat, it's gonna hit the same notes, that'd give timeframe, etc..
You want an upgrade NOW? Just calc size via g/density and use the current method. Same calc but more contextually accurate.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

I'm fine with the upgrades, mainly via the Tech Jacket arguments.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

@Chariot190 Real quick, do you think Nolan screaming "NO!" could count as a potential timeframe for the Sun Disk feat?

 

[FusionPrime0]

It isn't, that's a thin ring, we can tell that's debris, it's chunky and like 100x wider. You yourself even SAID it was debris too, we can see big chunky rocks in it too.

I meant that the ring of Viltrumites could've contributed to pulling the debris into a ring shape

It isn't accurate, that ain't how that works. You have the right idea but you need to account for the hollowed mass IN the formula, just subtracting it afterward dont work.

okay

Multiplication has nothing to do with it, it becomes volatile.

there's direct mentions of duraneg.
You LITERALLY just mentioned it yourself in that very post.

No it doesn't? Why are you acting like this. All you have is an interpretation, you don't even know what destabilized means in this context, why are you acting like it has to be one or the other? Fact is, it doesn't. Theres even interpretations we HAVENT brought up that could be just as likely, theres a huge caveat and unknown here we cant reasonably work with.

Why would an asteroid violently explode beyond the initial energy of the gun? It's just hax dude.
Now apply that to a core.

Given that's what happened.

It's one of the most common misconceptions evers.
And we are LITERALLY told it "destabilizes the core" via magic gun that causes GBE to go haywire and cause things to explode.

There's literally zero argument here, prove it.
We JUST dont know, it sucks, i wish we did know, but we cant assume stuff like that.

Given the fact it LITERALLY happened, I can assure you.

You're right we don't really know enough, I concede.

I would like to remind you I used to be a CGM, and the reason I'm not now has nothing to do with the credibility on said subjects.

I'm sorry I didn't know you were a CGM in the past.

If only we knew lad. Honestly I'd just wait, you know damn well some goon is gonna ask in the Q&A when it happens, as long as it isnt some leading question it should be fine for context.

alright

You kinda just said why.
In no world should a feat have THAT type of variables at play. Already tells us it's vague or needs a lot of guesswork.

makes sense

Yes actually, someone tossed those in chat this week. Dude been reading Tech Jacket to find scaling and feats.

Is there gonna be a CRT coming up for feats from Tech Jacket or?

Like legit just wait, the show isn't gonna be this huge different feat, it's gonna hit the same notes, that'd give timeframe, etc..
You want an upgrade NOW? Just calc size via g/density and use the current method. Same calc but more contextually accurate.

okay, I can make a calc doing that

 

[Chariot190]

I meant that the ring of Viltrumites could've contributed to pulling the debris into a ring shape

The ONLY reason that ring existed in the first place, is because of the planet's GBE and gravitational pull. Plus a ring of bodies like that isn't gonna be enough to draw a planet's mass worth of debris and space dust back together.

Is there gonna be a CRT coming up for feats from Tech Jacket or?

Probably, I'm working on Robot atm thou. His profile is dogshit dude, "Standard Equipment: None Notable", like, **** off what, who made this?

okay, I can make a calc doing that

Go ahead.
While you're at it try calcing the ship Allen feat.
I was gonna do it if nobody else did but if lads wanna help, that's helping.
A good shot to get a scale of is when Conquest pulps it, the front of the ship detaches and we can see lil lads in it like Mark. It's prob high Class M, but I'm thinking FMA would buff it up a magnitude or two.

@Chariot190 Real quick, do you think Nolan screaming "NO!" could count as a potential timeframe for the Sun Disk feat?

Checking the feat, no. He's yelling no BECAUSE it already happened, as in he starts yelling after they blow it up like dumbasses and the sunlight is hitting him (Which is prob a few seconds anyway given sunlight is like, still gotta reach him). It's prob a few seconds tho, given it happened in the span of time where completely normal fodder goons go "yep ok we can do this" and before Allen or Nolan do anything worth a damn.
Couldn't be beyond like a handful of seconds, but again, I'd just wait till the show again, probably gonna be somewhere between 5 to 15 seconds. Maybe more, maybe less, depends on if they focus on the explosion, or the beam at all.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The ONLY reason that ring existed in the first place, is because of the planet's GBE and gravitational pull. Plus a ring of bodies like that isn't gonna be enough to draw a planet's mass worth of debris and space dust back together.

Probably, I'm working on Robot atm thou. His profile is dogshit dude, "Standard Equipment: None Notable", like, **** off what, who made this?

Go ahead.
While you're at it try calcing the ship Allen feat.
I was gonna do it if nobody else did but if lads wanna help, that's helping.
A good shot to get a scale of is when Conquest pulps it, the front of the ship detaches and we can see lil lads in it like Mark. It's prob high Class M, but I'm thinking FMA would buff it up a magnitude or two.

Checking the feat, no. He's yelling no BECAUSE it already happened, as in he starts yelling after they blow it up like dumbasses and the sunlight is hitting him (Which is prob a few seconds anyway given sunlight is like, still gotta reach him). It's prob a few seconds tho, given it happened in the span of time where completely normal fodder goons go "yep ok we can do this" and before Allen or Nolan do anything worth a damn.
Couldn't be beyond like a handful of seconds, but again, I'd just wait till the show again, probably gonna be somewhere between 5 to 15 seconds. Maybe more, maybe less, depends on if they focus on the explosion, or the beam at all.

I say we put the verse at 8-A+. Fodders couldn't even survive the sun.
Also, Viltrum was destablized by Space Racer so...

 

[Chariot190]

I say we put the verse at 8-A+. Fodders couldn't even survive the sun.
Also, Viltrum was destablized by Space Racer so...

Allen the Alien vs Metal Gear REX and Guts....
based....

 

[FusionPrime0]

Probably, I'm working on Robot atm thou. His profile is dogshit dude, "Standard Equipment: None Notable", like, **** off what, who made this?

Yea Robot's profile sucks rn. When we do a Tech Jacket CRT, we should also cover this feat.

While you're at it try calcing the ship Allen feat.

I saw that @ReturnofKhadz calced that already but didn't post it on a blog on this site. It got to 6-C and Class P. If he doesn't care to add it, I can place it in a blog to get evaluated.

I also already calced Mark's feat of Slamming Allen into the Moon off site, so I can put it on a blog here and get it evaluated. It got Low 6-B+ to barely High 6-A and Class P to Class E depending if you use GBE, Escape Velocity, or KE. So if accepted, it would be a pretty big upgrade.

 

[Huesito88]

Allen the Alien vs Metal Gear REX and Guts....
based....

We can also downgrade Toei DBZ based off the sun stuff

 

[Chariot190]

We can also downgrade Toei DBZ based off the sun stuff

About ******* time ngl

I saw that @ReturnofKhadz calced that already but didn't post it on a blog on this site. It got to 6-C and Class P. If he doesn't care to add it, I can place it in a blog to get evaluated.

Do so. If it legitimately is that high, that's an upgrade for early dudes.

I also already calced Mark's feat of Slamming Allen into the Moon off site, so I can put it on a blog here and get it evaluated. It got Low 6-B+ to barely High 6-A and Class P to Class E depending if you use GBE, Escape Velocity, or KE. So if accepted, it would be a pretty big upgrade.

Just like, calc the funny rocks it ejected's volume, treat the dust as 99% hollow, combine, do KE (might need to do a mix of omnidirectional and standard KE), and use the show timeframe for the "explosion" which should be like what, 1-2 seconds? I was doing napkin math this morning and got like High 6-A.

Though, LS wouldn't be allowed for the moon feat, would probably fall under striking strength exclusively. But if the other thing is Class P it wouldn't matter.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Do so. If it legitimately is that high, that's an upgrade for early dudes.

Ok I will.

Just like, calc the funny rocks it ejected's volume, treat the dust as 99% hollow, combine, do KE (might need to do a mix of omnidirectional and standard KE), and use the show timeframe for the "explosion" which should be like what, 1-2 seconds? I was doing napkin math this morning and got like High 6-A.

I just found the ke of the rocks and used a 5 second timeframe (it's 1.8 seconds in the show iirc) so I'll update that and add the dust cloud.

Though, LS wouldn't be allowed for the moon feat, would probably fall under striking strength exclusively. But if the other thing is Class P it wouldn't matter.

I mean Mark pushed Allen into the moon but if LS isn't applicable there then alr.

 

[FusionPrime0]

After looking over the Allen calc, the lifting strength portion has an issue, so I'm working to fix it. It will likely be lower than Class P now

 

[FusionPrime0]

Just calc size via g/density and use the current method. Same calc but more contextually accurate.

Finished this
Finished the Allen calc too

 

[Chariot190]

Allen calc is a lil weird. I'd need to double check if the size is consistent with later more concrete shots, but I think it checks out? 50% is generous tho, I'd have just cubed a ship or something, there's def a lot of wires and given it's structured with a bunch of rooms, 80% prob shouldve been used but eh.
First two ends should work fine imo.
KE end prob can't be used, 15 seconds is pretty arbitrary, we have no idea how long it took and I'm not sure it was even that quick given he says that detour took him long enough as it is, there seems to be a quick time cut, probably just safer to do the first two ends.
Not a big deal tho, slap FMA on that bad boy and it should give Class T (and also a low KE end still gives like 6-B so prob could just do that, though the LS is the important part given the moon shit should be 6-A).

Obviously you'd need to get it properly eval'd tho.

Viltrum feat I don't have any comments on, it's just a lil boost using info we can directly confirm.

 

[Hellbeast]

You’re cooking with the Tech Jacket argument and I’ve wondered it myself

 

[Tahoy49574]

KE end prob can't be used, 15 seconds is pretty arbitrary, we have no idea how long it took and I'm not sure it was even that quick given he says that detour took him long enough as it is, there seems to be a quick time cut, probably just safer to do the first two ends.

He says that because he's on a mission to Earth to warn Mark that there's a viltrumite, every second counts

Also the events are the crew is taken aback by a sudden crash, we then see that crash was Allen moving the ship out of the way, and then we look back at the crew asking what happened(as Allen is still moving it)

I don't think they just stood there in shock for like 5 minutes before looking at what's saving them on the screen

 

[Chariot190]

He says that because he's on a mission to Earth to warn Mark that there's a viltrumite, every second counts

I am well aware, but literal seconds being that big a deal based solely on guesswork, is pretty damn generous.
Why 5 seconds a panel anyway? Why not 1? Or 10? Or 20 even? Like where are these values coming from?

Also the events are the crew is taken aback by a sudden crash, we then see that crash was Allen moving the ship out of the way, and then we look back at the crew asking what happened(as Allen is still moving it)

That isn't even true.
It goes them yapping and then they go damn due to a crash.
Allen pushing it with great effort.
Panel 3 is him still pushing it, there's nothing between here and the last shot.
Panel 4 is now the dude going "Damn what was that?"
And then they put him up on screen and he's done.

There isn't anything to gauge it was quick, we only ever get a view of them again after he's already done in response to it having already happened.
There is no "he's still moving it" in this situation.

He doesn't ask WHAT that was, aka, Allen, until they're already completely out of harm's way.

I don't think they just stood there in shock for like 5 minutes before looking at what's saving them on the screen

Case and point, you don't think?
Well, can you actually prove that? not like theyre the smartest dudes to begin with. Who knows why, why didn't they do it in the seconds you were arguing it took place over anyway? They waited regardless, so what's the difference between a dozen odd seconds and minutes? He would have had time to say it regardless.

I never said it was 5 minutes, but was it 5? Or 3, 1, half, etc? We don't know, it could have easily been whatever, fact is we don't know, there's a easy argument to suggest it took a lil bit, and there's like zero context clues or frame of references to go by because we only see the start, and the end, with one vague inbetween.

I'm going to be blunt, if ANY feat or calc is prefaced with "I think", stop, if a major component is based solely on interpretation, it can never be treated as a solid flatout rating, and the more vague it becomes, the more likely it wouldn't even be treated as a possibly. We work with what we can confirm, and if we don't need to guess, we don't.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Allen calc is a lil weird. I'd need to double check if the size is consistent with later more concrete shots, but I think it checks out? 50% is generous tho, I'd have just cubed a ship or something, there's def a lot of wires and given it's structured with a bunch of rooms, 80% prob shouldve been used but eh.
First two ends should work fine imo.
KE end prob can't be used, 15 seconds is pretty arbitrary, we have no idea how long it took and I'm not sure it was even that quick given he says that detour took him long enough as it is, there seems to be a quick time cut, probably just safer to do the first two ends.
Not a big deal tho, slap FMA on that bad boy and it should give Class T (and also a low KE end still gives like 6-B so prob could just do that, though the LS is the important part given the moon shit should be 6-A).

Obviously you'd need to get it properly eval'd tho.

Viltrum feat I don't have any comments on, it's just a lil boost using info we can directly confirm.

The PE end just got accepted, also the Viltrum Bust calc just got accepted as well.
Can I apply these changes now or does a mod need to review this thread?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The PE end just got accepted, also the Viltrum Bust calc just got accepted as well.
Can I apply these changes now or does a mod need to review this thread?

I would err on the side of saftey and get two mods to approve.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

What's the consensus here?