Son Goku (SDBH) vs Sonic the Hedgehog [0-0-0]

[LaserPrecision]

I would you like to define this "Complex metaphysical erasure", because both are equalized at 6D. This doesn't suffice your argument, " passively restore and erase (via speed) things from existence is just a restoration and erasure as a byproduct of his speed, it doesn't boast superior notion.
Unless you prove he can resist 7 layers of History and Info type 2 (and passively increasing layers even) he won't survive such devastation.

It has more levels of abstraction (Which is accepted, and on a blog for the verse). 6 or 7 levels of abstraction IIRC. Layers are the potency of a level, and levels of abstraction are the hierarchical structure of metaphysical constructs within a verse. You can have infinite layers of smth like plot manipulation, but it will be inferior to something like conceptual manipulation or information manipulation that's even 1 level higher in abstraction due to the latter haxes being more abstract. There's also even a versus wiki page for this.

So yeah, he can resist erasure that can erase a structure with a more complex quality, thus would be unaffected by this more simple, rudimentary erasure.

Sonic's speed can restore things that were erased by said erasure that can erase more abstract structures. So yeah, he'd be able to restore himself if he were even to be affected by it in the first place (Though he wouldn't be affected by it to begin with).

 

[Shar122]

If every character resists his ability, they would never be affected by it to begin with, and thus we wouldn't know what the ability does. This argument is categorically circular. You can't really have your cake and eat it too.

Sonic doesn't really need to resist it. He has the Emeralds to restore his stamina. That and Rings. Tho I do think Sonic has feats of resisting stamina absorption or smth of the like. I might have to make a CRT for that.

Wdym? I only said SDBH characters resists each other card passives, it doesn't mean every characters should resist each other whole stack of card abilities.
And you claim that SDBH are fatigued and such? I want you to send me evidence a SDBH character being fatigue, a link perhaps? Since Adrenaline and Rejuvenation ability (Passive indefinite restoration of stamina) is available just for certain characters from what I recall. And
CC Goku have it. And some of their certain abilities works on each other as well.

 

[Shar122]

It has more levels of abstraction (Which is accepted, and on a blog for the verse). 6 or 7 levels of abstraction IIRC. Layers are the potency of a level, and levels of abstraction are the hierarchical structure of metaphysical constructs within a verse. You can have infinite layers of smth like plot manipulation, but it will be inferior to something like conceptual manipulation or information manipulation that's even 1 level higher in abstraction due to the latter haxes being more abstract. There's also even a versus wiki page for this.

So yeah, he can resist erasure that can erase a structure with a more complex quality, thus would be unaffected by this more simple, rudimentary erasure.

Sonic's speed can restore things that were erased by said erasure that can erase more abstract structures. So yeah, he'd be able to restore himself if he were even to be affected by it in the first place (Though he wouldn't be affected by it to begin with).

Imma address later, for now I'm busy ig.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wdym? I only said SDBH characters resists each other card passives, it doesn't mean every characters should resist each other whole stack of card abilities.
And you claim that SDBH are fatigued and such? I want you to send me evidence a SDBH character being fatigue, a link perhaps? Since Adrenaline and Rejuvenation ability (Passive indefinite restoration of stamina) is available just for certain characters from what I recall. And
CC Goku have it. And some of their certain abilities works on each other as well.

I was saying that if every single character resists each others passive abilities, you would never see their abilities work on one another, and thus never know it exists to begin with. They can't resist it, and be affected by it at the same time. It's circular logic.

I can send a link if you want, but it would be best if I knew what characters have the ability to passively restore their stamina. Because several people are fatigued in the clips I'm watching. And I don't want to link a scene to one of the character's who don't have the ability.

 

[Shar122]

I was saying that if every single character resists each others passive abilities, you would never see their abilities work on one another, and thus never know it exists to begin with. They can't resist it, and be affected by it at the same time. It's circular logic.

I can send a link if you want, but it would be best if I knew what characters have the ability to passively restore their stamina. Because several people are fatigued in the clips I'm watching. And I don't want to link a scene to one of the character's who don't have the ability.

I understand your logic, but characters doesn't universally resist every passive; the resistance is conditional and often tied on the cards interactions, just because some passives don't work on certain characters doesn't mean all passives are like like that.
But anyways, it doesn't change the fact that CC goku has adrenaline rush ability and Rejuvenation, which is a indefinite stamina restoration. Which is a sufficient ability for the battle.

Imma argue back later.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I understand your logic, but characters doesn't universally resist every passive; the resistance is conditional and often on the cars interactions, just because some passives don't work on certain characters doesn't mean all passives are like like that.
But anyways, it doesn't change the fact that CC goku has adrenaline rush ability and Rejuvenation, which is a indefinite stamina restoration. Which is a sufficient ability for the battle.

Imma argue back later.

I think I've been giving the wrong impression here. I don't know what you mean by the resistance being "conditional," but this ability you talk about as you stated activates at the "start of battle" or whatever. But in every cutscene with Goku ever, none of the character's are shown being too exhausted to move. Either the ability doesn't exist, or Goku chooses not to use it. I believe it's the latter at best.

I agree he has indefinite stamina restoration. But infinite stamina > indefinite stamina restoration. The latter can get tired in finite time if they exhaust themselves quicker than they regain stamina. The former can't. Not to mention, if Goku doesn't have self-sustenance, he would eventually grow too weak to fight even if he had the physical stamina to keep operating. With Sonic, I can quantify how long he can operate without tiring (Several days straight), and how quickly he can restore his physical stamina (In mere seconds). With Goku, you can't do that since it's a videogame. So it's too assumptions to assume he can basically fight indefinitely without ever getting tired based on purely gameplay. Where if you went by that logic, you could exaggerate any videogame character.

Kk. Thanks for keeping it cool :3

 

[Apotheosis69]

Please do send the blog/sandbox for the Layers of Abstractions of Sonic whenever you find it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Please do send the blog/sandbox for the Layers of Abstractions of Sonic whenever you find it.

It's not layers. It's levels of abstraction. But sure, here ya go. Levels of abstraction is just a way to organize the fundamentality of metaphysical things. They take priority over layers. Layers are just the potency of a metaphysical thing. The best way to imagine it is fundamentality is y on the axis, and layers are x on the axis. X measures the potency, y measures how fundamental the concept it. It would look like this (with 1 being the most fundamental abstraction)

1. Concept 1: 1 Layer
2. Concept 2: 2 Layers
3. Concept 3: 3 Layers

3 has the most layers, but Concept 2 and 1 take priority over it since it's of a more essential quality. Whereas potency is a measure of quantity. And quality > quantity (Especially after the new big revisions in regards to Tier 1-A).

 

[Apotheosis69]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/856621434550091776/1367714602602991697/image.png?ex=681596fc&is=6814457c&hm=94c4c11e1ece1a7fc7eee9dedb0085d7d27b050ce028755c48fee8e34632ba3f&
Is this what justifies the layers? IF so, thats only up to 5 Layers

 

[LaserPrecision]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/856621434550091776/1367714602602991697/image.png?ex=681596fc&is=6814457c&hm=94c4c11e1ece1a7fc7eee9dedb0085d7d27b050ce028755c48fee8e34632ba3f&
Is this what justifies the layers? IF so, thats only up to 5 Layers

Again, it's not layers. It is the levels of abstractions. Layers are a completely separate concept. The two have nothing to do with one another. The order of aspects show the hierarchical structure of metaphysical aspects within a setting. In Sonic, there are 6 orders of aspects. The higher order governs the lower order. Layers aren't about organizing the hierarchy of metaphysical aspects. They are about determining the quantitative potency of the aspect. They are intrinsically inferior to orders of aspects.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Do you guys think its fine if all Layers of Hax is equalized, dependent on the forms?

Or would that just be Incon-City...

 

[Omegabronic]

If Base Goku started with Keysword in their fight, it would instantly passively nullify Base Sonic's powers before he will transform anyways.

And then he goes Super with the Emeralds

And reduce his stamina to 0. He won't be able to move, since he is crippled..

He has 999 rings to supply his stamina, also... he can just go Super with the Emeralds(only needs to think), or they just transform him on his own, as they have done before

Stamina Reduction & Status Effect Inducement (Paralysis; Can reduce opponents stamina via normal attacks or skills which will disable opponents abilities, powers and actions when their stamina is reduced to zero, making them unable to act)

Doesn't matter for the Emeralds, also Sonic has 4-D stuff, what "D" is this ability?

He also has this ability even in base form without the Keysword. His normal attacks can set his enemy's power to 1

1 being...?

He can also negate durability with his normal attacks and stuff.

Rings shield from damage, so doesn't matter, plus he can restore himself/heal himself via the Emeralds, which did such even when he was unconcious

From further inspection, Sonic indeed has this but it seems that this is just conditional, it won't work without the other hedgehogs it seems.

Passive Stamina Regeneration (Whenever one of the Super Hedgehogs is battling Solaris, the other 2 will passively regenerate Rings/Energy)

Don't see how, explain

 

[Omegabronic]

Do you guys think its fine if all Layers of Hax is equalized, dependent on the forms?

Or would that just be Incon-City...

nah, cuz then Sonic just resists all Goku has, and then Sonic has stuff Goku doesn't resist, like Plot manip

 

[Omegabronic]

Now that stuff is Gooone.

Cus stuff like that from Gacha games to be broken so characters can sell/predate over consumers is BUUUUUTT

honestly not sure this is even necessary, the Chaos Emeralds kind of neg it

 

[Omegabronic]

It's literal power set to 1 "value" bro, stamina drain makes someone unable to move or do anything, since they are stunned on top of that.

In all clips i ever saw of it, people can still float, and make movement

 

[Omegabronic]

But even then, that won't save Sonic from being erased throughout history and info type 2 7 layers By TPU demigra or Universe tree.

As i said, Sonic resists this... Super Sonic resists far more fundamental NE EE as i said here:

Goku's erasing Sonic is not gonna work, Sonic resists Non Existence Erasure... in a deeper level than Goku's erasure, i know Goku can erase things that do not exist... but Super Sonic can resist erasure on the level of White Space being erased via Solaris, which is more non existent than an already non existent timeline(Crisis City), so Sonic's resistance just covers it

 

[Omegabronic]

I would you like to define this "Complex metaphysical erasure", because both are equalized at 6D. This doesn't suffice your argument, " passively restore and erase (via speed) things from existence is just a restoration and erasure as a byproduct of his speed, it doesn't boast superior notion.
Unless you prove he can resist 7 layers of History and Info type 2 (and passively increasing layers even) he won't survive such devastation.

Does Goku resist Plot Manipulation? Sonic has ALL optional equipment... with the World Rings he can just... reality warp/write himself to win

 

[Omegabronic]

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/856621434550091776/1367714602602991697/image.png?ex=681596fc&is=6814457c&hm=94c4c11e1ece1a7fc7eee9dedb0085d7d27b050ce028755c48fee8e34632ba3f&
Is this what justifies the layers? IF so, thats only up to 5 Layers

Metaphysical Aspects

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Basically, each ">" represent how more fundamental one aspect is compared to another, aka, like how someone controling

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

If we call it "order of aspects" perhaps you will understand it better

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Does Goku resist Plot Manipulation? Sonic has ALL optional equipment... with the World Rings he can just... reality warp/write himself to win

He cab summon Arale...but that's restricted ig?

 

[Apotheosis69]

He cab summon Arale...but that's restricted ig?

Goku can only summon Tokitoki

 

[LaserPrecision]

I haven't seen much argumentation. I dunno if the thread is winding down to an end, but if so, ig I'll vote Sonic. Once he goes Super, he's immune to all of Goku's hax. And Sonic's bodying him in a hand-to-hand fight (I assume their transformations have equalized speed too? Cuz if not, Sonic would speedblitz upon transforming).

 

[LaserPrecision]

i get chaos energy being too abstract for goku and stuff
but how does that stop passive info 2 delete

Passive info 2 ain't affecting Super Sonic. Technically Base Sonic already resists better info 2 deletion. Let alone Super Sonic (Who would already would be too difficult for Goku to affect anyways).

 

[LaserPrecision]

but wouldn't goku's layers bypass it

Covered this in the last 2 pages. Layers don't matter. Sonic's scales to erasure on a more complex level (6 Order of Aspects).

 

[TheGreatBanana]

I haven't seen much argumentation. I dunno if the thread is winding down to an end, but if so, ig I'll vote Sonic. Once he goes Super, he's immune to all of Goku's hax. And Sonic's bodying him in a hand-to-hand fight (I assume their transformations have equalized speed too? Cuz if not, Sonic would speedblitz upon transforming).

Whats the multiplier for Supersonic? And sonic isn't beating goku in H2H any time soon.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Whats the multiplier for Supersonic? And sonic isn't beating goku in H2H any time soon.

It's the gap between Infinite and Immeasurable. Which is effectively an infinite increase in speed. Also, you'd be surprised, lol. Sonic's got some gross skill slop going on (Which will prolly get expounded upon later on). And I say this as a DB fan myself.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Potency and abstraction are separate things that shouldn't be conflated together.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Potency and abstraction are separate things that shouldn't be conflated together.

Precisely, yeah. I've been talking about that for the last few pages (Though I guess thinking about it deeper, there is some intersection).

 

[Killerdrone123]

Abstraction doesn't matter here if sonic doesn't have resistance to 7 layers of info and history ee he is getting passively erased

 

[Killerdrone123]

apparently sonic scales to erasure on a more complex level so it won't work

Does he resist info 2 ee and history ee worth of 7 layers,don't think so he is getting erased

 

[Omegabronic]

i get chaos energy being too abstract for goku and stuff
but how does that stop passive info 2 delete

Resisted, Sonic resists far more fundamental erasure + far more fundamental NE EE

 

[Omegabronic]

Whats the multiplier for Supersonic? And sonic isn't beating goku in H2H any time soon.

i don't see why he wouldn't, specially with the speed amps

 

[Omegabronic]

Does he resist info 2 ee and history ee worth of 7 layers,don't think so he is getting erased

Layers don't matter here, Sonic resists deeper Conceptual EE higher than both of those in the Order of aspects, he literally resists the concepts that shape both of those being erased in base form alone, Super even more so

 

[Killerdrone123]

Layers don't matter here, Sonic resists deeper Conceptual EE higher than both of those in the Order of aspects, he literally resists the concepts that shape both of those being erased in base form alone, Super even more so

No fundamental aspect is superior to other as of now just cause sonic resist conceptual ee doesn't make him resist info ee that is more layered than his info ee resistance also just cause the verse treats cm higher than info doesn't mean sonic can resist info ee that is more layered than him not to mention he doesn't have any answer to history ee

Abstraction layers=/=layers of hax

 

[Omegabronic]

No fundamental aspect is superior to other as of now

As noted on the Metaphysical Aspects page, if the game clarifies superiority then it can be, which Sonic does, so yeah, Sonic's concept manip >>> Info and Plot/History manip, since that relationship between them is stablished in verse

not to mention he doesn't have any answer to history ee

Yes he does? He resisted Non Existent History Erasure far more potent/non existensial than Goku's EE, it literally won't do anything

Solaris' EE/Super Sonic's resistance>White Space>Crisis City
This isn't layers btw, just a far more non existent erasure than Goku's

Abstraction layers=/=layers of hax

Yes, that's the whole point, it is why Goku's layers don't matter here at all

 

[Killerdrone123]

As noted on the Metaphysical Aspects page, if the game clarifies superiority then it can be, which Sonic does, so yeah, Sonic's concept manip >>> Info and Plot/History manip, since that relationship between them is stablished in verse

Cool that still doesn't save him from layered info ee just cause the verse treats it as the superior aspect

Yes he does? He resisted Non Existent History Erasure far more potent/non existensial than Goku's EE, it literally won't do anything

Solaris' EE/Super Sonic's resistance>White Space>Crisis City
This isn't layers btw, just a far more non existent erasure than Goku's

Goku ee is more layered sonic isn't surviving point me where it is written that having more abstract layers can save you from more layers of a hax just cause sonic treats it as a higher aspect won't make him survive additional layers of that said haxs

Yes, that's the whole point, it is why Goku's layers don't matter here at all

Again show me where it is written that abstract layers can ignore hax layers

 

[LaserPrecision]

No fundamental aspect is superior to other as of now just cause sonic resist conceptual ee doesn't make him resist info ee that is more layered than his info ee resistance also just cause the verse treats cm higher than info doesn't mean sonic can resist info ee that is more layered than him not to mention he doesn't have any answer to history ee

Abstraction layers=/=layers of hax

No fundamental aspect is superior to the other by default. If the verse has evidence of aspects being beyond the other in fundamentality, it is assumed to be that way. Which I and Omega both linked earlier. It's the same way that if you resist being erased on a conceptual level, you aren't going to be affected by meager erasure of matter, regardless of the layers because you resisted something infinitely more complex in nature (It's similar to how before the 1-A changes recently, a person with infinite layers in 3D erasure couldn't affect someone who had 4D resistance to erasure).

Abstraction "Layers" (That isn't the proper term) =/= layers of hax

That is correct. Because abstraction layers >>> layers

One is merely a potency difference, the other is having a deeper level of fundamentality. Which, obviously supersedes layers since quality > quantity (1-A and above is about quality, every tier below it is about quantity).

 

[LaserPrecision]

Again show me where it is written that abstract layers can ignore hax layers

He already linked it. Metaphysical Aspects page. Hax that are of a less fundamentality can't affect hax that govern it. Only the opposite can be done. He even quoted the part of the page that clarifies this for you.

 

[Omegabronic]

Goku ee is more layered sonic isn't surviving

Laser covered for on the Order of Aspects part, but for the EE. As said, Sonic resists far more non existensial erasure then what Goku can do, Goku can erase something that doesn't exist, leaving a more "nothing" behind.... Sonic however, survived the erasure of said " more "nothing""(White Space), so his resistance and EE and simply fudamentally superior to Goku's

As Laser said quality>quantity

, out of the fact that Goku's Aura can't even reach Sonic thanks to Super Sonic's own aura

Heck, the Time Energy that is said aura would just get cyber corrupted and forced to an intangible state and inable to interact at all

 

[Apotheosis69]

Will this basically force it to a more hands-on/energy blast focused fight?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Will this basically force it to a more hands-on/energy blast focused fight?

Precisely, yeah.