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Ars Magica: Verse & Profile Additions (Tier 1 & 0)

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

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About it​

Ars Magica is a tabletop rpg made in 1987, with the setting being a medieval fantasy that takes place mostly in Europe around AD 1200.

Here is a sandbox for the verse page:


Tier 0​


The verse has a supreme being, called God (among other names). I believe it qualifies for a Tier 0 rating. You can check its sandbox here:


Overview of God's rating:​


High 1-A+​

There are some things in this verse that would scale to High 1-A+ if God is Tier 0, namely:

Keter​

God created the Tree of Life (the Ten Sefirot), which includes Keter, which represents God's mind:
Since Keter is God's mind, it would be High 1-A+ (Type 2), basically falling into this:

Chokmah​

There is also Chokmah, which is the sum total of all possibilities of existence. Everything that might conceivably come into being at any time is already contained within Chokmah. But I'm not sure what tier this would be if Keter is already High 1-A+.

Angels, Saints, and other agents:​

A Miracle is the direct intervention of God into reality. A such, they are the "ultimate plot device", can do anything "no matter what", cant fail, and cant be resisted.
This would make angels/saints/agents have a "up to High 1-A+ with Miracles" rating (this being High 1-A+ Type 1), as they are a direct channel to God's power, basically acting as God's direct puppets.

1-A(?)​


This would be for Plato's Universals/realm of ideas:
The forms are the very essence of what they represent, encompassing everything related to that object, regardless of size or other qualities. All things that have existed, do exist, or will exist have a form, even if that thing has no physicality. They are the perfect template for any subject in reality. They are eternal, have no beginning or end, are unchangeable, and beyond reality.

Magic Resistance & Penetration​

Magic Resistance is something that everyone with the Gift has. Thus, normal/mundane beings do not have it.

You can find Magic Resistance in Mages and Creatures (if the creature is mystical/belongs to a realm/has the Gift).

Mages always have an inherent magic resistance value, allowing them to resist any spell if the enemy mage does not have enough Penetration value to get past it. If you want to affect an enemy mage with any spell, the Penetration total value needs to be higher than their magic resistance value, otherwise the spell will simply fail. This is supported by Magic Resistance being stated to inherently protect the Mage from all types of supernatural power.

Another example of this is the Magic Resistance from True Faith. If you dont have the necessary Penetration value, the mage will resist all supernatural powers that you might throw at them.

Should be noted that a Magic Resistance value of 0 still means the character has Magic Resistance, with the enemy mage still requiring a Penetration value of 1 to affect them with spells.

Overall, this means that if a Mage has a magic resistance value of, for example, 20, then they'd have 20 layers of Resistance to all magic spells.

Likewise, if a mage has a total Penetration value of 20, it'd mean their spells bypass 20 layers of resistance.
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Staff votes:​

Agree: @Reiner04, @Elizhaa, @Sir_Ovens, @Dereck03, @ActuallySpaceMan42

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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Tier 0 and 1-A and High 1-A+ for Keter is fine. Neutral on Chokmah being High 1-A+.
 
If Keter is High 1-A+, then Chokmah cant be. It needs to be another tier.
There are cases in which it can be. If Keter is the emanative process of God ie being High 1-A+, then if Chokmah is the actualized potential from his mind then that’s fine.

It's the Angels that can't be High 1-A+ unless working for the will of God transcends Chokmah, in that case then they're all just 1-A. I don't know where High 1-A is coming from. That's if the Angels even scale to that Platonic Realm or higher.
 
If Keter is the emanative process of God ie being High 1-A+, then if Chokmah is the actualized potential from his mind then that’s fine.
Not familiar with this standard, but if it's the case sure.

It's the Angels that can't be High 1-A+ unless working for the will of God transcends Chokmah
Angels get a High 1-A+ rating because they can at any time become a divine conduit for a miracle (miracles are the direct intervention of God in reality, it's basically God using them as a channel for his doings in the world). Also, they are not physically High 1-A+, it's just hax. For instance, an archangel would be indexed in the profile as "5-A. Up to High 1-A+ with Miracles".

It's the same with Saints, but their case is even more explicit.
 
Angels get a High 1-A+ rating because they can at any time become a divine conduit for a miracle (miracles are the direct intervention of God in reality, it's basically God using them as a channel for his doings in the world). Also, they are not physically High 1-A+, it's just hax. For instance, an archangel would be indexed in the profile as "5-A. Up to High 1-A+ with Miracles".

It's the same with Saints, but their case is even more explicit.
That's fine then if at that point it’s God doing the thing and behind the hax. You wouldn't say this is also considered above Kheter?
 
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Any smurfs like with D&D? 1-A smurfs?
High 1-A+ smurfs in this case.

You wouldn't say this is also considered above Kheter?
I wouldnt say so.

What angels (with miracles) can do and what Keter encompasses is technically at the same level (especially since both cases are things that come directly from God), just the way this is represented is different, just like how High 1-A+ has two "types" but they are still not transcendent over the other. It's just that Keter already encompasses all possible worlds while angels can actualize all possible worlds.
 
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I think this is an antifeat since the creation of all things is treated as an event at a singular point in time. It also does not generate or determine possibility itself, but rather, its creation is the same as normal creation—bringing into existence things that were already possible, as seen from the scan itself and the omnipotence page.
 
I wouldnt say so.

What angels (with miracles) can do and what Keter encompasses is technically at the same level (especially since both cases are things that come directly from God), just the way this is represented is different, just like how High 1-A+ has two "types" but they are still not transcendent over the other. It's just that Keter already encompasses all possible worlds while angels can actualize all possible worlds.
Then the ratings seemed justified. I was asking because Ultima and I were discussing the narrow few examples of people who reach High 1-A+(Type 1), and I gave one way which he agreed to. Your way is the second way of reaching that tier, seemingly.
 
I do agree with it all.

Esp with how practically all of that is part of WoD. Which most stuff there has been accepted.
 
Esp with how practically all of that is part of WoD. Which most stuff there has been accepted.
Not all of it. After the 3rd edition (when Atlas became the publisher), the two verses parted ways and became their own thing.
 
If Chokmah has grounds for High 1-A+ and the miracle thing works purely as God functioning for them. Then could we say that that level of boost is actualized as something equal to Chokmah? If so, they can both receive it. If not then the boost obviously sits higher which downgrades Chokmah.
 
Alright I think everything is fine, but Chokmah should be High 1-A. Keter is more primal and "pure" cause it's the "idea of the seed of ideas", which logically puts Chokmah within it.
 
Alright I think everything is fine, but Chokmah should be High 1-A. Keter is more primal and "pure" cause it's the "idea of the seed of ideas", which logically puts Chokmah within it.
There are no established grounds from where High 1-A would come from if it's not the “+” modifiers. If what I said is true then it'd be 1-A, if it scales to the platonic realm section.
 
Ars Magicka?! That's the precurser to WoD, I think even some editions are still canonical to WoD.

Oh yeah, I've already read through Ars Magicka, so obviously I agree. God in that verse is 0
Editions prior to White Wolf selling the IP to Wizards of the Coast are indeed canonical to WoD. Hell, given that the Order of Hermes is the focal point of Ars Magicka, and MtAs's Spheres and improv spell-crafting system owe their existence to Ars, you could argue that it's inextricably linked to the WoD setting, with the initial editions of WoD's Dark Ages splats even taking place in the exact same time period.
 
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@VeryGoofyToddler2 @Sir_Ovens I found this statement about Keter/Chokmah/Binah. Do you think it could work for High 1-A+ Chokmah?
No not really. Kheter has grounds for High 1-A+ since it precedes the other two. I don't mind it receiving High 1-A+ due to it being the cosmological apex and representing the mind of God in which all seeds of possibilities are born. Chokmah coming in as some sort of actualized potential is fine for the first variant of High 1-A+ since it's not itself all possible space.

However, the triad thing doesn't uphold well since it is always in the preceding order and closeness to God: Kheter > Chokmah > Binah. High 1-A+ are treated as equal without the need explanation of “holding more possible or actualize large worlds.” So Binah can't be High 1-A+ unless somehow it is equal to Chokmah, but that would render the idea that the metaphysical triad thing quite moot as it would equalize all three sefirot and that’s not logical at least not to Kheter in conjunction with the other two.

That's also not considering that the “miracle” thing may surpass Chokmah and Binah, if not then at least Chokmah could still receive High 1-A+. Now some Kabbalah teachings wholly state that both the right and left sides of the Tree are equal, if you can find something along the lines of that then the High 1-A+ is fine, if not then it kinda isn't.
 
Editions prior to White Wolf selling the IP to Wizards of the Coast are indeed canonical to WoD. Hell, given that the Order of Hermes is the focal point of Ars Magicka, and MtAs's Spheres and improv spell-crafting system owe their existence to Ars, you could argue that it's inextricably linked to the WoD setting, with the initial editions of WoD's Dark Ages splats even taking place in the exact same time period.
Indeed, and I think the scans for God here are from 2nd edition, which, iirc, is pre-White Wolf IP split
 
I will say, I don't see much for High 1-A.

This is mostly because the other tiers are more about the structures below them.

The description for High 1-A is;
Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system.
Likewise, the High 1-A+ qualifier is;
The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

From this, just being the manifestation, emanation or aspect of a Tier 0 isn't in and of itself any proof of anything.

I think God being 0 is fine, but I don't agree with Keter or any of the other Sephirot being any tier until there's any cosmology to back up a tier (or statements which actually give them any tier rather than hinging on God)

I'm also 99% sure Ars Magica has God be the Form of Good in the Platonic section, regardless of Plotinus' arguments, so I can't say I see 1-A when it's God who's the Platonic form.
 
My reasons for High 1-A+ are due to precedents.

As I outlined in the OP, it is an accepted standard that if a structure is equivalent to the Mindscape of a Tier 0, then such structure would be High 1-A+ (by necessity). The verse wouldn't need to say that the structure encompasses all logically possible worlds. It would get the tier by virtue of its nature. Examples of profiles that use the mindscape of God as a reason for High 1-A+ are Oblivion (heh) and Pralaya (both of them represent the unconsciousness of God)

Likewise, the same applies if there is a character that acts as a channel for the Tier 0 to operate within reality. An example of a profile that follows this is God (Seekers into the Mystery).

Regarding 1-A: Even if we say that God is The Good (which Im not aware about that being the case), the proposal is mainly for the lesser/generic platonic forms that God created, not The Good per se.
 
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Holy shit, I can't believe someone actually read and play Ars Magica.

I feel ******* old.
 
My reasons for High 1-A+ are due to precedents.

As I outlined in the OP, it is an accepted standard that if a structure is equivalent to the Mindscape of a Tier 0, then such structure would be High 1-A+ (by necessity). The verse wouldn't need to say that the structure encompasses all logically possible worlds. It would get the tier by virtue of its nature. Examples of profiles that use the mindscape of God as a reason for High 1-A+ are Oblivion (heh) and Pralaya (both of them represent the unconsciousness of God)

Likewise, the same applies if there is a character that acts as a channel for the Tier 0 to operate within reality. An example of a profile that follows this is God (Seekers into the Mystery).

Regarding 1-A: Even if we say that God is The Good (which Im not aware about that being the case), the proposal is mainly for the lesser/generic platonic forms that God created, not The Good per se.
I'm currently reading into Ars Magica again, since it's been such a long time.

But I have to say, I've found much that casts doubt on God being tier 0.

Also, that Keter wouldn't be High 1-A+ if there is to be one. The True Empyrean would be, as God is independently powerful because he resides within it.
 
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