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RIP Pope Francis.
Introduction
So, as we all know, a new standard was passed, that being the following:
This, of course, extends to all 1-A verses, and as such, MegaTen. The bulk of this thread was already addressed in the original thread (see here), and the purpose of this thread to address the notion of 3D characters being capable of combating 1-A characters, as without sufficient explanation, this would obvious require a rather significant downgrade. Anyways, let's begin.
Magnetite
Magnetite possesses some glaring issues. For one, it is explicitly multiplicative, as some humans can possess multiple times more than other humans. Aogami, during the events of SMTVV, after analyzing Shiva, who's been steadily absorbing Magatsuhi, also detects it has a volume, which furthers the idea that Magnetite absorption results in a physical, quantitative increase in strength. As mentioned, an increase in physical strength cannot be used as justification for 1-A, as it requires a metaphysical increase that's unbound by physicality. So, is this a downgrade? Hardly. First, Magnetite is, inherently, a formless substance.
Layman's terms, Magnetite is spiritual power. However, the state of Magnetite differs depending on the plane of existence it resides in. In Assiah, it takes a crystalized form, hence the fact that the player can absorb it physically throughout the course of SMTVV. This is confirmed, too, as the description for Magnetite, according to SMT IMAGINE, states that it has no real material form. This should be a given, since it comes from The Expanse, an entirely non-physical plane of existence, as it's made of thoughts. Probably the most piece of evidence comes from the Shin Megami Tensei: Chaos Museum, which directly calls the material within Yetzirah "pre-existent" matter.
So, that covers the "physical increase" portion. Its also important to note that after defeating a strong demon, Lucifer considers you to gain an increase in spiritual power, so.
The Tree of Life
This requires only a small overview, as the bulk of it was already talked about in the original thread. In essence, the Tree of Life is the downflow of God's divinity to shape existence. Magnetite begins at Yetzirah, the astral world, but what should be mentioned is that the content of the Tree of Life only becomes more divine the further you go, so the nature, aka essence (qualitative) nature of Magnetite should also become more divine the further you ascend.
This is also mentioned in the fact that Beriah is entirely spiritual, and still, extends above Yetzirah.
Observation
Now, this was already talked about in-depth in the original thread, but a point about it that was missed was the fact that Observation, in essence, is a power than effects the qualitative nature of something. The most glaring example of this comes from Shin Megami Tensei V, where absorbing YHVH's Knowledge allowed Lucifer to transcend to a higher-plane of existence beyond the Throne. And, yes, Knowledge and Observation are the same.
Human Potential
One may ask, I thought Observation and Human Potential were one in the same? After all, didn't The Axiom grant humans Observation in every universe? Well, in every universe in SMT IV. Taking a look at SMTVV, it hints at something much greater, and deeper than Observation.
So, as Dagda states, in V's timeline, Observation did not belong to humans, it was a trait of Gods. Surely, this is a direct contradiction to what was established in SMT IV, yes? Hardly the case. If you look closely, he mentions in "this world"'s Wisdom (Knowledge) applied to Demons, an intentional divergence. For the record, this is the same Dagda from SMT IVA. So, clearly, Observation just is not the innate human potential we thought it to be for years. But let's continue.
So, even in a world without Observation, Lucifer granted them this power, in-spite of a potential that surprised even him, despite the fact that Lucifer himself once had control of Observation. What this means, as I mentioned earlier, as that the true essence of humanity extends far beyond the power of gods, and their divinities. What this means in terms of tiering, for now, is under wraps, but this should be enough proof that the 3-D vs 1-A fights they have is due to an innate metaphysical potential that extends far beyond their physical selves, and as such, no contradictions are posed.
Let's discuss.
Introduction
So, as we all know, a new standard was passed, that being the following:
This, of course, extends to all 1-A verses, and as such, MegaTen. The bulk of this thread was already addressed in the original thread (see here), and the purpose of this thread to address the notion of 3D characters being capable of combating 1-A characters, as without sufficient explanation, this would obvious require a rather significant downgrade. Anyways, let's begin.
Magnetite
Magnetite possesses some glaring issues. For one, it is explicitly multiplicative, as some humans can possess multiple times more than other humans. Aogami, during the events of SMTVV, after analyzing Shiva, who's been steadily absorbing Magatsuhi, also detects it has a volume, which furthers the idea that Magnetite absorption results in a physical, quantitative increase in strength. As mentioned, an increase in physical strength cannot be used as justification for 1-A, as it requires a metaphysical increase that's unbound by physicality. So, is this a downgrade? Hardly. First, Magnetite is, inherently, a formless substance.
Layman's terms, Magnetite is spiritual power. However, the state of Magnetite differs depending on the plane of existence it resides in. In Assiah, it takes a crystalized form, hence the fact that the player can absorb it physically throughout the course of SMTVV. This is confirmed, too, as the description for Magnetite, according to SMT IMAGINE, states that it has no real material form. This should be a given, since it comes from The Expanse, an entirely non-physical plane of existence, as it's made of thoughts. Probably the most piece of evidence comes from the Shin Megami Tensei: Chaos Museum, which directly calls the material within Yetzirah "pre-existent" matter.
So, that covers the "physical increase" portion. Its also important to note that after defeating a strong demon, Lucifer considers you to gain an increase in spiritual power, so.
The Tree of Life
This requires only a small overview, as the bulk of it was already talked about in the original thread. In essence, the Tree of Life is the downflow of God's divinity to shape existence. Magnetite begins at Yetzirah, the astral world, but what should be mentioned is that the content of the Tree of Life only becomes more divine the further you go, so the nature, aka essence (qualitative) nature of Magnetite should also become more divine the further you ascend.
This is also mentioned in the fact that Beriah is entirely spiritual, and still, extends above Yetzirah.
Observation
Now, this was already talked about in-depth in the original thread, but a point about it that was missed was the fact that Observation, in essence, is a power than effects the qualitative nature of something. The most glaring example of this comes from Shin Megami Tensei V, where absorbing YHVH's Knowledge allowed Lucifer to transcend to a higher-plane of existence beyond the Throne. And, yes, Knowledge and Observation are the same.
Human Potential
One may ask, I thought Observation and Human Potential were one in the same? After all, didn't The Axiom grant humans Observation in every universe? Well, in every universe in SMT IV. Taking a look at SMTVV, it hints at something much greater, and deeper than Observation.
So, as Dagda states, in V's timeline, Observation did not belong to humans, it was a trait of Gods. Surely, this is a direct contradiction to what was established in SMT IV, yes? Hardly the case. If you look closely, he mentions in "this world"'s Wisdom (Knowledge) applied to Demons, an intentional divergence. For the record, this is the same Dagda from SMT IVA. So, clearly, Observation just is not the innate human potential we thought it to be for years. But let's continue.
So, even in a world without Observation, Lucifer granted them this power, in-spite of a potential that surprised even him, despite the fact that Lucifer himself once had control of Observation. What this means, as I mentioned earlier, as that the true essence of humanity extends far beyond the power of gods, and their divinities. What this means in terms of tiering, for now, is under wraps, but this should be enough proof that the 3-D vs 1-A fights they have is due to an innate metaphysical potential that extends far beyond their physical selves, and as such, no contradictions are posed.
Let's discuss.
