• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Super Saiyan forms Upgrade (Dragon Ball Toei)

Status
Not open for further replies.
StarShooter80

StarShooter80

He/Him
Messages
6,085
Reaction score
4,943

Remember Grade 3?​

Super Saiyan Grade 3 was stated to be 10x that of Grade 2 in the El Manga Legendario. This multiplier is also pretty consistent:
Grade 1 Trunks =< Grade 1 Vegeta (Trunks is almost, if not as strong as Vegeta) << Grade 2 Vegeta (Treated as an unbelievable and shocking increase over Super Saiyan) << Suppressed Perfect Cell (can molly whop Grade 2 Vegeta no problem) << Grade 3 Trunks (Suppressed Cell, blatantly lying though, tells Trunks that his power is far above Cell's by a wide margin)
Click to expand...
This is all pretty self-evidential stuff, and was previously accepted, but was removed. Due to Super Saiyan 3 being the strongest form of Super Saiyan, even though it's only 8x SSJ, meanwhile Grade 3 is 10x SSJ Grade 2 which is superior to regular Super Saiyan. It's logical for this to be rejected for the manga, but a different case can be made for the Toei anime, which leads to:

Toei Grade 4 really is allat​

Credits to Crim3322 for the scans. But pretty blatantly Mastered/Grade 4 SSJ is stated to be the strongest form of Super Saiyan (pre-ascended forms):
So now the multiplier scaling chain looks a bit more like this:
Super Saiyan Grade 1 (50x) < Super Saiyan Grade 2 < Super Saiyan Grade 3 (10x Grade 2, or >500x base) < Mastered Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 (2x MSSJ, or >1000x base) < Super Saiyan 3 (4x SSJ2, or >4000x base)
Click to expand...
And for Super Saiyan 4 (Using its current scaling chain):
  • Goku is 1. SSJ3 is a >4000x boost.
  • Normal SSJ Baby exceeds SSJ3 Goku’s power.
  • Baby goes SSJ2 and SSJ3.
  • Meaning Baby’s strength is >4000 x 2 x 4 Goku’s as Super Baby 2. (>32000x Base Goku).
  • Goku becomes a Golden Oozaru and exceeds Baby. Meaning Golden Oozaru is at least >32000x Base Goku.
  • Baby becomes a Golden Oozaru himself (>32000x his SB2 Self) and this power jump matches the power jump Goku gets when he goes SSJ4 from Golden Oozaru. (Meaning you need to stack >32000x on itself for the full breadth of SSJ4’s multiplier).
  • This means SSJ4 boosts Goku >1.024 Billion times his base. This matches, mathematically, with the boosts Baby gets. (>4000 x 2 x 4 x >32000 = >1.024 Billion). This perfectly matches what we see in the show, because Goku and Baby are comparable at this point, with Baby having a SLIGHT edge.
  • Then we’re shown that Baby is experiencing massive strain and isn’t operating at his real peak, and neither is Goku. Once Baby attains his peak, it’s stated in the Perfect Files Baby’s power Doubled. Once Goku attains his Full Power, he matches and exceeds Baby, so he Doubles as well. (>2.048 Billion, though likely more, as FPSSJ4 Goku trumped Full Power Baby by a considerable margin.) So in conclusion, the Multiplier for SSJ4 is >2.048 Billion. Once in Super Full Power, you get a (more than) 10x amp, making it 20.48 Billion times increase.

How does this affect Lebron's Legacy?​

Just very minor stuff, no tier changes for anyone really.

(Counting staff only)
Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

funny-pics-v0-aavum9m29wte1.jpg
 
Last edited:
Ednaxel2 said:
This doesn't affect the manga
Click to expand...
Yes. The Legendary Manga is a manga-based databook, though.
Like, the information provided was specifically produced as an exploration of the manga's universe.
Plonge dans l'univers extraordinaire de Dragon Ball! Dans tes fascicules, tu découvriras tout ce que tu as toujours voulu savoir sur les personnages de ce manga de légende et sur les scènes-clé de l'histoire. Tu entreras au coeur de l'univers unique d'Akira Toriyama, l'auteur de Dragon Ball mais aussi de nombreux autres mangas.
"Dive into the extraordinary world of Dragon Ball! In your booklets, you'll discover everything you always wanted to know about the characters in this legendary manga and the key [moments] of the story. You'll enter the unique world of Akira Toriyama, author of Dragon Ball and many other mangas."
Click to expand...
Do we use the manga-based databooks when supplementing the TV anime, currently?
 
I would like to note that the GT guide isn't really reliable, since it also contains stuff like saying SSJ1 is a 10x amp. The statement for Grade 4 seems to be interpreting what Vegeta says in this scene as him saying Goku can power up to Grade 3 levels while only placing a light burden on his body.

Chouzenshuu 4 says Goku used Grade 2 in his fight with Paikuhan, which he seems to do here right before he uses Super Kaioken. Grades 2 and 3 are just forced powerups that anyone should theoretically be able to do regardless of the transformation they're in (so it wouldn't contradict Grade 4 > Grade 2 on its own), but it is something of note.

I think the other statements from the Dragon Box and M7 Anime Comic, combined with Super Saiyan 2 explicitly being the strongest grade while only being 2x above "SSJ1", should be enough on their own to argue G4>G3, but the GT guide needs to be canned.
 
Last edited:
Another thing:
Ednaxel2 said:
  • Baby becomes a Golden Oozaru himself (>32000x his SB2 Self) and this power jump matches the power jump Goku gets when he goes SSJ4 from Golden Oozaru. (Meaning you need to stack >32000x on itself for the full breadth of SSJ4’s multiplier).
Click to expand...
Why is 32,000x being stacked on top of Super Baby 2? SB2 is his SSJ3 equivalent.
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
I think the other statements from the Dragon Box and Trunks special Anime Comic, combined with Super Saiyan 2 explicitly being the strongest grade while only being 2x above "SSJ1", should be enough on their own to argue G4>G3, but the GT guide needs to be canned.
Click to expand...
Fair enough
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
Another thing:

Why is 32,000x being stacked on top of Super Baby 2? SB2 is his SSJ3 equivalent.
Click to expand...
You're saying that the amp should be on top of his base self instead?
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
Another thing:

Why is 32,000x being stacked on top of Super Baby 2? SB2 is his SSJ3 equivalent.
Click to expand...
Ednaxel2 said:
You're saying that the amp should be on top of his base self instead?
Click to expand...
This was brought up in the thread I applied it. Baby's forms, while Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, do not function as temporary multipliers. When he powers up into Super Baby 2 (Super Saiyan 3), he is permanently in that form. That IS his new Base Form. That's how it works. Additionally, Baby stacked the forms on top of each other. He transforms from his SB2 state into Golden Oozaru, (hence why it has his features), and when he gets his tail cut, he explictly powers down into his SB2 State, because it's his new base form.

It just so happens that SB2 is 3200x Base Goku's level of power, making him ridiculously more powerful than before when applied as written.
 
RedReaper616 said:
This was brought up in the thread I applied it. Baby's forms, while Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, do not function as temporary multipliers. When he powers up into Super Baby 2 (Super Saiyan 3), he is permanently in that form. That IS his new Base Form. That's how it works. Additionally, Baby stacked the forms on top of each other. He transforms from his SB2 state into Golden Oozaru, (hence why it has his features), and when he gets his tail cut, he explictly powers down into his SB2 State, because it's his new base form.

It just so happens that SB2 is 3200x Base Goku's level of power, making him ridiculously more powerful than before when applied as written.
Click to expand...
The same would happen if two people fused using the Potara while transformed as per Elder Kai, I wouldn't go around stacking multipliers for reasoning as weak as this. If we go with the "he stacked SB2 and Golden Oozaru" interpretation the best that'd give him is another 8x on top of 32,000x.
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
The same would happen if two people fused using the Potara while transformed as per Elder Kai, I wouldn't go around stacking multipliers for reasoning as weak as this.
Click to expand...
As weak—It’s literally what we see happen. Once he becomes SB2 he is a permanent SSJ3. He transforms and depowers into SB2 explicitly, because he’s combining both sets of powers.

Additionally, I don't see how fusing into a permanent higher form is relevant. Elder Kai doesn't claim it’ll make you weaker or whatnot, but that you’ll end up more unstable and reduce your (fusion’s) lifetime through stress.

Even if it was relevant in some form, at best it would be something like Vegito being stuck as a Super Saiyan and at his SSJ levels of strength all the time, not making Vegito weaker.
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
If we go with the "he stacked SB2 and Golden Oozaru" interpretation the best that'd give him is another 8x on top of 32,000x.
Click to expand...
No? You’d have to assume Baby’s Golden Oozaru outright isn’t as powerful as Goku’s, when there is no reason for this to be the case. Which leads to you taking the multiplier you get for Goku’s Golden Oozaru and applying it to the multipliers of power he has already.
 
RedReaper616 said:
As weak—It’s literally what we see happen. Once he becomes SB2 he is a permanent SSJ3. He transforms and depowers into SB2 explicitly, because he’s combining both sets of powers.

Additionally, I don't see how fusing into a permanent higher form is relevant. Elder Kai doesn't claim it’ll make you weaker or whatnot, but that you’ll end up more unstable and reduce your (fusion’s) lifetime through stress.

Even if it was relevant in some form, at best it would be something like Vegito being stuck as a Super Saiyan and at his SSJ levels of strength all the time, not making Vegito weaker.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the fusion will permanently be in the transformation and won't be able to power down to base, exactly as you're describing Baby.
RedReaper616 said:
No? You’d have to assume Baby’s Golden Oozaru outright isn’t as powerful as Goku’s, when there is no reason for this to be the case. Which leads to you taking the multiplier you get for Goku’s Golden Oozaru and applying it to the multipliers of power he has already.
Click to expand...
If he's permanently SB2 (his SSJ3 equivalent) and he's going Oozaru on top of that (as Golden Oozaru is explicitly SSJ+Oozaru, as per Chouzenshuu 4's description) then the multiplier he'd get is 8x Golden Oozaru, as that's the gap between SSJ1 and SSJ3.
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
Yeah, the fusion will permanently be in the transformation and won't be able to power down to base, exactly as you're describing Baby.
Click to expand...
Again, I don’t see how the magical process of Fusion, which puts you at a set level of strength dependent on the fusee’s, and thus being stuck as a SSJ does not weaken you, is relevant to Baby’s method as a counterargument.

Further, if Vegito was stuck as Super Vegito, that wouldn't prevent him from going Super Vegito 2 (SSJ2), or 3 (SSJ3) for more power on top of his permanent transformed state. (Though unlike Baby, he’d power back down to ordinary SSJ after.)
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
If he's permanently SB2 (his SSJ3 equivalent) and he's going Oozaru on top of that (as Golden Oozaru is explicitly SSJ+Oozaru, as per Chouzenshuu 4's description) then the multiplier he'd get is 8x Golden Oozaru, as that's the gap between SSJ1 and SSJ3.
Click to expand...
Again, no? He’s using Golden Oozaru and the multiplier it gave Goku on his “Base” form, which happens to be SB2 due to his unique physiology as a Permanent SSJ3. Whatever number we get for Goku’s Golden Oozaru is what you port over to Baby’s amp, because there is no reason to assume function any differently than each other.
 
RedReaper616 said:
Further, if Vegito was stuck as Super Vegito, that wouldn't prevent him from going Super Vegito 2 (SSJ2), or 3 (SSJ3) for more power on top of his permanent transformed state. (Though unlike Baby, he’d power back down to ordinary SSJ after.)
Click to expand...
And he'd only get the added 2-8x that going from SSJ1 to 2-3 gives you, not the full 1000-4000x that would be insane.
RedReaper616 said:
Again, no? He’s using Golden Oozaru and the multiplier it gave Goku on his “Base” form, which happens to be SB2 due to his unique physiology as a Permanent SSJ3. Whatever number we get for Goku’s Golden Oozaru is what you port over to Baby’s amp, because there is no reason to assume function any differently than each other.
Click to expand...
You're assuming him being permanently in a transformation somehow means he can stack the multipliers of his prior forms every time he transforms into a higher form, but not only does that not follow at all, it isn't even consistently applied within the argument for SSJ4's multiplier to begin with (SB1 would be 1000x his prior form instead of 2x and SB2 would be 4000x above SB1 if you applied this line of reasoning consistently).
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
And he'd only get the added 2-8x that going from SSJ1 to 2-3 gives you, not the full 1000-4000x that would be insane.
Click to expand...
Why the Hell would he get 1000x stronger? He is only going SS2-3. “Stacking” the form only makes you 2x Base (SSJ2 on top of SS1) or 8x Base (SS3 on top of SSJ1).
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
You're assuming him being permanently in a transformation somehow means he can stack the multipliers of his prior forms every time he transforms into a higher form—
Click to expand...
NO. Where are you getting that? I am applying the multiplier from Golden Oozaru directly. I am not referencing SS1-3.
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
but not only does that not follow at all, it isn't even consistently applied within the argument for SSJ4's multiplier to begin with (SB1 would be 1000x his prior form instead of 2x and SB2 would be 4000x above SB1 if you applied this line of reasoning consistently).
Click to expand...
Again, this doesn’t make sense. This argument does not follow. There isn’t a correlation. Ordinary Saiyans don’t go 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> Golden Oozaru in multiplier.

Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 are a “separate species” of transformation that unlocks your potential. They aren’t related multipliers. You could get and master only SSJ and go Golden Oozaru, because all the prereq’s needed is the ordinary Oozaru and SSJ transformation, creating a unique “separate” form unrelated to the multipliers you get from ordinary SSJ forms.

So the multiplier as a Golden Oozaru works even if you don’t have SSJ2-3. Because they just aren’t connected.

Additionally, Saiyans transform from their Base Form into their Golden Oozaru state. That is Baby’s base form. It’s just empowered. Thus, he is using it the same way, (getting the same amp), whilst stacking the deck thanks to his Tuffle Physiology.
 
RedReaper616 said:
Again, this doesn’t make sense. This argument does not follow. There isn’t a correlation. Ordinary Saiyans don’t go 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> Golden Oozaru in multiplier.

Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 are a “separate species” of transformation that unlocks your potential. They aren’t related multipliers. You could get master only SSJ and go Golden Oozaru, because all the prereq’s needed is the ordinary Oozaru and SSJ transformation, creating a unique “separate” form unrelated to the multipliers you get from ordinary SSJ forms.

So the multiplier as a Golden Oozaru works even if you don’t have SSJ2-3. Because they just aren’t connected.

Additionally, Saiyans transform from their Base Form into their Golden Oozaru state. That is Baby’s base form. It’s just empowered. Thus, he is using it the same way, (getting the same amp), whilst stacking the deck thanks to his Tuffle Physiology.
Click to expand...
Except it's not unrelated, it's explicitly a combination of Oozaru and Super Saiyan (which 2-3 are just powered up forms of)
Chouzenshuu 4 page 139Translation
大猿化派生技:黄金大猿化☆
[医] 能力
[人] 悟空、ベジータ、ベジータベビー
[特] 『DBGT』に登場。

超サイヤ人が満月と同等のブルーツ波を浴びることで、黄金の大猿に変身する。凶暴化し理性を失うが、黄金大猿の状態で理性を取り戻すことで超サイヤ人4へと変化することができる。尻尾を再生した悟空が、太陽光を反射した地球から放出されるブルーツ波を浴びて変身。ベジータとベジータベビーは超ブルーツ波増幅装置を使用して人工的に黄金大猿化した。		Oozaru Transformation Derivative Technique: Golden Oozaru Transformation
[Cat.] Ability
[Peo.] Son Goku, Vegeta, Vegeta Baby
[Par.] When a Super Saiyan is exposed to Bruits Waves equal to that of a full moon, they transform into a golden giant monkey. They become ferocious and lose all reason, but by regaining their reason as a Golden Oozaru, they can transform into a Super Saiyan 4. Goku, who regenerated his tail, by being bathed in Bruits Waves from sunlight reflected off the Earth while Vegeta and Vegeta Baby artificially became Golden Oozarus using the Super Bruits Wave Amplifying Machine.
 
When a Super Saiyan (not a transformed SSJ, but a being capable of transforming into one—See GT Goku) sees Blutz Waves, yes, they become a Golden Oozaru.

However, that does not change the fact their forms are considered a different “Species/Branch” of evolution, as stated by the GT Perfect Files.

Moreover, Goku transforming as an ordinary base form directly into Golden Oozaru shows how unrelated they are. He doesn’t sequentially power up like he does in the OP, because they aren’t a sequence.
 
RedReaper616 said:
When a Super Saiyan (not a transformed SSJ, but a being capable of transforming into one—See GT Goku) sees Blutz Waves, yes, they become a Golden Oozaru.

However, that does not change the fact their forms are considered a different “Species/Branch” of evolution, as stated by the GT Perfect Files.

Moreover, Goku transforming as an ordinary base form directly into Golden Oozaru shows how unrelated they are. He doesn’t sequentially power up like he does in the OP, because they aren’t a sequence.
Click to expand...
GO-SSJ4 being a separate branch doesn't mean they're unrelated to SSJ, nor does them being "sequential" matter. SSJ 1-3 are sequential because 2 and 3 are just powerups on top of the foundation of SSJ, but even this doesn't prevent Goku from transforming directly into one of the latter forms which we see him doing. This whole "sequential transformation" argument doesn't even work in the first place because SSJG actually is totally unrelated to SSJ1 in every way but its name yet we see Goku power up from one to the other in DBS Broly.

GO, as described above, is a combination of SSJ and Oozaru, and is therefore a 'separate branch' from SSJ1-3 insofar as it's a branch from SSJ1 and Oozaru that leads into SSJ4 instead of continuing directly from 3. So no, Baby is not stacking some abstracted 32,000x multiplier on top of SSJ3, and is at best just combining Oozaru with SSJ3 instead of 1.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Gp972
  • Locked
Super Saiyan god multiplier (dragon ball super)
2
Replies
45
Views
3K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
SwordLegendz01
  • Locked
Super Saiyan's Body Control: Sensory Enhancement & Muscle Efficiency
Replies
29
Views
2K
Ztesrxgdfjcvgkbh
Ztesrxgdfjcvgkbh
Overvoid69
Dragon Ball Manga CRT, Cell Saga: Base Saiyans Too Strong?
Replies
27
Views
4K
AwkguyDB
AwkguyDB
TiltedFN
  • Locked
Super Beyond God removal
3 4 5
Replies
191
Views
13K
CryoTheMayo
CryoTheMayo
M3X_2.0
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision
8 9 10
Replies
366
Views
29K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top