Star Wars Legends Cosmology Revision (Part 3:Star Forge and Dark Empire)

[OTG0001]

?
Breaking time and space is a violation of the laws of physics. I’m not sure what the basis for it requiring to break every law of physics would be.


There is an entire field of ethics literally called ‘Natural Law’.

Uh huh, that would differentiate it from being spatial manipulation - under spatial manipulation, the laws do apply, such as gravity (the gravitational field of a black hole warps space) (which should fall under the laws of nature) but force storms are NOT subject to them and go against them.


Morals =/= Ethics, Morality is more subject to a person's own beliefs while ethics is more of a "guideline", and also what part of a force storm violates ethical principles? Natural Law is also not the Laws of Nature.

 

[OTG0001]

Also ripping or shattering the fabric of space isn't listed under the effects/properties/variants of spatial manipulation, unless I'm missing something (new here - bear with me)

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Here’s the evidence.

"Palpatine’s storm was not just a spatial anomaly. It was a tear in the very fabric of hyperspace and realspace alike.”
(The Essential Guide of the Force)

"Force Storms are hyperspace disturbances created by immense dark side energy. They can destroy starships, planets, and even distort hyperspace lanes.”
(The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

All the other quotes are space-time related or the wiki. Is there a way to verify this?

 

[LordVader30]

That is a stretch.
There is little reason to think this implies an uncontrolled Force Storm would destroy Hyperspace itself. Especially considering the Dark Empire Sourcebook states an uncontrolled Force Storm will dissipate in a few minutes.


Space and time are not Hyperspace.


Creating a tunnel in Hyperspace is not the same as “significantly affecting” an entire higher dimensional universe.

This isn’t forced or anything, and considering that an uncontrolled Force Storm destroys everything in its path, your argument becomes invalid. The reason is simple: in just 1-2 minutes, it would already reach a 1-C level.

I never said that Hyperspace and spacetime are the same thing. I just said that since Hyperspace is mentioned in the text, it’s more likely to refer to Hyperspace. Lmao

Creating a tunnel in Hyperspace and significantly distorting it, how did you connect that with what I wrote? What I wrote is that Hyperspace wormholes are already a 1-C structure on their own, and I included a lot of evidence in that document showing that Force Storms directly damage Hyperspace. You’ve ignored half of what I said, so I’m interpreting this as a forced attempt.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Force Storms are described as rifts in both realspace and Hyperspace. One of the statements says that if left uncontrolled, they will destroy everything in their path—which, since the text emphasizes Hyperspace, is clearly a reference to Hyperspace again.

That's a very generous interpretation of that, one I personally don't subscribe to. At least, you have now solidified the "likely far higher".

 

[OTG0001]

That is a stretch.
There is little reason to think this implies an uncontrolled Force Storm would destroy Hyperspace itself. Especially considering the Dark Empire Sourcebook states an uncontrolled Force Storm will dissipate in a few minutes.


Space and time are not Hyperspace.


Creating a tunnel in Hyperspace is not the same as “significantly affecting” an entire higher dimensional universe.

First part is true.

What are you talking about, Hyperspace is a space-time continuum, it literally operates under the concepts of space and time.

 

[LordVader30]

"Palpatine’s storm was not just a spatial anomaly. It was a tear in the very fabric of hyperspace and realspace alike.”
(The Essential Guide of the Force)

"Force Storms are hyperspace disturbances created by immense dark side energy. They can destroy starships, planets, and even distort hyperspace lanes.”
(The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

All the other quotes are space-time related or the wiki. Is there a way to verify this?

By "verification," do you mean the visual form? If so, please wait a moment while I research it.

 

[LordVader30]

That's a very generous interpretation of that, one I personally don't subscribe to. At least, you have now solidified the "likely far higher".

I still don't understand why you're focusing on why it needs to scale much higher when everything is already showing that it should scale to Hyperspace.

 

[Epyriel]

Uh huh, that would differentiate it from being spatial manipulation - under spatial manipulation, the laws do apply, such as gravity (the gravitational field of a black hole warps space) (which should fall under the laws of nature) but force storms are NOT subject to them and go against them.


Morals =/= Ethics, Morality is more subject to a person's own beliefs while ethics is more of a "guideline", and also what part of a force storm violates ethical principles? Natural Law is also not the Laws of Nature.

Also ripping or shattering the fabric of space isn't listed under the effects/properties/variants of spatial manipulation, unless I'm missing something (new here - bear with me)

Few things wrong here:

1) I hope you realize it said “violates the laws of nature” not “is immune to all natural laws” or anything like that. Breaking some laws does not mean breaking all laws.

2) I beliew you read the Spatial Manipulation page wrong. Spatial Manipulation does not necessarily entail the vioaltion of thigns like gravity, but it can. The wording is that many other rules may still apply, not must still apply.

3) Wormholes and manipulating spacetime are both specific listed examples of Spatial Manipulation.

4) Ethics and Morals are synonyms, don’t be pedantic. From the Jedi’s perspective utilizing a Force Storm is an egregious defiance of how to use the Force, and would violate countless tenants of how the Force should be utilized in defiance of the natural order (laws in this sense is interchangeable).

 

[Epyriel]

First part is true.

What are you talking about, Hyperspace is a space-time continuum, it literally operates under the concepts of space and time.

Hyperspace is a higher dimensional plane. The entire point of a wormhole is folding a path through a higher dimension. From a perspective of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension it would appear as though a wormhole breaks spacetime, yet from a higher dimensional point of reference such could be observed as a folding through higher dimensions.

 

[Epyriel]

I still don't understand why you're focusing on why it needs to scale much higher when everything is already showing that it should scale to Hyperspace.

No one is contesting it exists in 7 dimensions, the issue is that it is not equivalent to affecting an entire plane of existence on that level.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I still don't understand why you're focusing on why it needs to scale much higher when everything is already showing that it should scale to Hyperspace.

Because that's how our standards work on the wiki.

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are two to five uncountably infinite levels above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^6 to R^9 (6 to 9-dimensional real coordinate space).

— Tiering System

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves.

— Tiering System FAQ

What you guys have shown is that Force Storms possess extremely potent hax applications, where Sidious manipulates higher dimensional energy, possibly the laws themselves (hax), to achieve these force storms. The fact of the matter is, there's no direct proof he can affect the "whole" of Hyperspace. We have a statement that they can destroy everything in their path, but it requires a little jump to apply that to all of Hyperspace too, specially when in the comic itself we get to see their actual destructiveness (albeit under control), and there's no proper/direct indication this should include a "whole" realm.

As such, my final evaluation is the following: "At least High 6-A" (for the physical destructiveness they can cause on Realspace, razing the surface of worlds) "likely far higher" (using the statement of them destroying everything in their path), but using 6-D/7-D energies (which would be listed as Higher Dimensional Manipulation)

 

[HenshinIntervention]

As such, my final evaluation is the following: "At least High 6-A" (for the physical destructiveness they can cause on Realspace, razing the surface of worlds) "likely far higher" (using the statement of them destroying everything in their path), but using 6-D/7-D energies (which would be listed as Higher Dimensional Manipulation)

"Palpatine’s storm was not just a spatial anomaly. It was a tear in the very fabric of hyperspace and realspace alike.”
(The Essential Guide of the Force)

"Force Storms are hyperspace disturbances created by immense dark side energy. They can destroy starships, planets, and even distort hyperspace lanes.”
(The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)

All the other quotes are space-time related or the wiki. Is there a way to verify this?

Do these quotes do anything or just add to your evaluation of it just being hax

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Do these quotes do anything or just add to your evaluation of it just being hax

The latter

However, hyperspace lanes does allow us a "possibly" rating of 4-A, as these lanes can cover entire star systems. But at that point I would defer to my fellow staff members.

 

[OTG0001]

Few things wrong here:

1) I hope you realize it said “violates the laws of nature” not “is immune to all natural laws” or anything like that. Breaking some laws does not mean breaking all laws.

2) I beliew you read the Spatial Manipulation page wrong. Spatial Manipulation does not necessarily entail the vioaltion of thigns like gravity, but it can. The wording is that many other rules may still apply, not must still apply.

3) Wormholes and manipulating spacetime are both specific listed examples of Spatial Manipulation.

4) Ethics and Morales are synonyms, don’t be pedantic. From the Jedi’s perspective utilizing a Force Storm is an egregious defiance of how to use the Force, and would violate countless tenants of how the Force should be utilized in defiance of the natural order (laws in this sense is interchangeable).

1 - It would likely mean it as a whole, if they wanted to emphasize that it's only breaking some laws they would have said "it violates x component of the laws of nature" or listing the specific part they violate, not include the concept as a whole.

2 - Yea, i'm tweaking, it does mention wormholes, but the other part has to be addressed - where does it list ripping spacetime, or shattering it, as falling under it (No, classical wormholes are not shattering/ripping spacetime or anything) and also, the page says this: "The ability only refers to one's ability to manipulate an area, not to defy its laws" which kinda goes against your point, the usage of "may" doesn't seem to have much significance if they directly cite spatial manipulation as NOT defying the laws, and of course, maybe you can still say that breaking some laws would still apply, but that circles back to if the statement is referring to all of them or some of them. I'll wait for a staff to clarify this one though.

4 - Being synonymous can still mean you have differing meanings, in this case they are similar, but not quite the same. In any case, again, the connotation of something isn't indicative of what the thing actually is. The jedi can certainly have bad feelings towards it being morally wrong, but the properties of the storm itself are not inherently subject to morals. A statement can state what the ability actually is and what it does and them move towards moral connotations of said ability, it doesn't mean that the entire thing is subject to moral context. You even admit it's a connotation, something derived from another thing, a meaning that is also implied in addition to the primary meaning. Also, the "laws of nature" are never used colloquially in a moral sense, they would specify the specific term if it was. The natural order is also how everything should be, not what governs everything.

 

[RetroWeeeb]

I agree with the points raised by Lephyr and Epyriel, but there are also a few things I would like to bring up as well

Sidious is the very embodiment of this doctrine—he channels the power of his hatred into the Force, amplifying his strength accordingly.

While I'm quoting this one sentence, I more so wish to address the idea of Sidious scaling to his Force Storms in general, regardless of if they're 1-C or not (I don't think they are)

As stated (by Palpatine himself) in the Book of Anger, Force Storms are born from the "hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power" and "the energies of the Dark Side of the Force". These are clarified as referring to "the Dark Side Power that permeates the Galaxy" and "the Dark Side energies that are all around us". Combine this with the Jedi Path referring to Force Storms as a "demonstration of pure natural energy", and it would appear that Force Storms are not entirely fuelled by Sidious' own power, but also require the use of external sources to create.

I'm not stating that Sidious' own power doesn't contribute to the creation of the storms, but it seems as tho their creation also requires pulling from the natural energies of the universe, which if this is the case then Sidious wouldn't scale to their full output.

“Palpatine can’t control his own storms.”

This is false. As the lore affirms, Sidious created and manipulated Force Storms with conscious intent. The fact that they are conjured and directed by his will invalidates this claim. He only lost control when he was cut off from the Dark Side by the combined force power of Luke, Leia and Anakin,as shown here

This isn't entirely true. While Sidious can control these storms to a degree, he cannot control them fully as confirmed by the endnotes written by the author, which state "... and he now boasts to Luke that he has perfect control of his Force Storms! Whether such boasts are true or not (they are not),..."

Force Storms are described as rifts in both realspace and Hyperspace. One of the statements says that if left uncontrolled, they will destroy everything in their path—which, since the text emphasizes Hyperspace, is clearly a reference to Hyperspace again

What your quote actually says is

"Force Storms can be used to transport ships, people, even entire fleets across the galaxy via hyperspace... But if uncontrolled, they consume everything in their path.”
(Handbook: Dark Empire Sourcebook)

I wouldn't exactly say that the text emphasises "Hyperspace" in any significant way compared to anything else in the text. If anything, it is highlighting the exact opposite of what you claim. The first half of the sentence is listing the objects in realspace that the storms can transport, and so the simplest interpretation of this is that the storms are consuming every OBJECT in its path (i.e. the stuff it spent half the sentence focusing on), not that it can consume the means of transportation (which is only given 2 words, so clearly not the emphasis of the sentence).

They are defined as Hyperspace distortions and Hyperspace tears, and they threaten the very fabric of all space and time. Since Hyperspace is explicitly highlighted in the same text, it must be connected to Hyperspace again.

Not a single quote/scan you have provided EVER refers to the storms effecting "the fabric of ALL space and time". The only one that even remotely does is the comics companion quote, and even this just references "all of space" which likely just refers to real space.

Normally, wikis aren't accepted as valid sources, but since they were used in the previous CRT and even in the Star Wars profile itself, I’ll use them as additional evidence. It once again states that hyperspace and realspace collided.

No, fan wikis are not accepted as valid evidence as they simply offer their own interpretation of the material. The wiki being linked to on the profiles is not an example of them being valid, but is more so an example of the profiles being massively outdated / poorly made.

 

[LordVader30]

No one is contesting it exists in 7 dimensions, the issue is that it is not equivalent to affecting an entire plane of existence on that level.

No, I'm clearly debating. Lmao. And it's very clearly a 7D structure.

 

[LordVader30]

Because that's how our standards work on the wiki.


— Tiering System


— Tiering System FAQ

What you guys have shown is that Force Storms possess extremely potent hax applications, where Sidious manipulates higher dimensional energy, possibly the laws themselves (hax), to achieve these force storms. The fact of the matter is, there's no direct proof he can affect the "whole" of Hyperspace. We have a statement that they can destroy everything in their path, but it requires a little jump to apply that to all of Hyperspace too, specially when in the comic itself we get to see their actual destructiveness (albeit under control), and there's no proper/direct indication this should include a "whole" realm.

As such, my final evaluation is the following: "At least High 6-A" (for the physical destructiveness they can cause on Realspace, razing the surface of worlds) "likely far higher" (using the statement of them destroying everything in their path), but using 6-D/7-D energies (which would be listed as Higher Dimensional Manipulation)

I didn’t read anything here that says it has to directly affect the entire dimension.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I didn’t read anything here that says it has to directly affect the entire dimension.

I bolded the part that says it.

"affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves."

 

[OTG0001]

Not a single quote/scan you have provided EVER refers to the storms effecting "the fabric of ALL space and time". The only one that even remotely does is the comics companion quote, and even this just references "all of space" which likely just refers to real space.

Honestly don't have the energy atm to respond to this in it's entirety, but the usage of "all" here is relatively irrelevant - the fabric of space-time IS what space is, affecting it in any way is affecting space itself.

 

[LordVader30]

I agree with the points raised by Lephyr and Epyriel, but there are also a few things I would like to bring up as well

While I'm quoting this one sentence, I more so wish to address the idea of Sidious scaling to his Force Storms in general, regardless of if they're 1-C or not (I don't think they are)

As stated (by Palpatine himself) in the Book of Anger, Force Storms are born from the "hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power" and "the energies of the Dark Side of the Force". These are clarified as referring to "the Dark Side Power that permeates the Galaxy" and "the Dark Side energies that are all around us". Combine this with the Jedi Path referring to Force Storms as a "demonstration of pure natural energy", and it would appear that Force Storms are not entirely fuelled by Sidious' own power, but also require the use of external sources to create.

I'm not stating that Sidious' own power doesn't contribute to the creation of the storms, but it seems as tho their creation also requires pulling from the natural energies of the universe, which if this is the case then Sidious wouldn't scale to their full output.


This isn't entirely true. While Sidious can control these storms to a degree, he cannot control them fully as confirmed by the endnotes written by the author, which state "... and he now boasts to Luke that he has perfect control of his Force Storms! Whether such boasts are true or not (they are not),..."


What your quote actually says is

I wouldn't exactly say that the text emphasises "Hyperspace" in any significant way compared to anything else in the text. If anything, it is highlighting the exact opposite of what you claim. The first half of the sentence is listing the objects in realspace that the storms can transport, and so the simplest interpretation of this is that the storms are consuming every OBJECT in its path (i.e. the stuff it spent half the sentence focusing on), not that it can consume the means of transportation (which is only given 2 words, so clearly not the emphasis of the sentence).


Not a single quote/scan you have provided EVER refers to the storms effecting "the fabric of ALL space and time". The only one that even remotely does is the comics companion quote, and even this just references "all of space" which likely just refers to real space.


No, fan wikis are not accepted as valid evidence as they simply offer their own interpretation of the material. The wiki being linked to on the profiles is not an example of them being valid, but is more so an example of the profiles being massively outdated / poorly made.

What you mentioned isn’t even related. Sidious gathers all the Dark Side energies, turns them into his own power, and then the Force Storm occurs. So this is already a result of the power Sidious absorbed. The fact that the galaxy becomes the center of the Dark Side is part of the same process.

This quote actually contradicts the other quotes I shared, and since it leans more toward the author’s interpretation, it makes more sense to prioritize the other statements.

I didn’t even share it for that reason — I posted it to show that it affects Hyperspace. And statements like “it will destroy everything in its path” or “it has the power to potentially destroy all of space” actually imply that it could destroy Hyperspace as well.

I won’t object to that part, but it should be noted that in the previous CRT, the wiki profile was accepted — and you should be aware of that too.

 

[LordVader30]

I bolded the part that says it.

"affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves."

Still, I haven’t received a logical explanation as to why Hyperspace wormholes wouldn’t be 7D.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Still, I haven’t received a logical explanation as to why Hyperspace wormholes wouldn’t be 7D.

They are 7-D. I have said it from the start. But they don't affect the "whole" of the 7-D structure (Hyperspace), which is why they can't have 1-C AP.

Very funny: "We grant you the 7-D energies, but we don't grant you 1-C tier"

 

[LordVader30]

They are 7-D. I have said it from the start. But they don't affect the "whole" of the 7-D structure (Hyperspace), which is why they can't have 1-C AP.

Very funny: "We grant you the 7-D energies, but we don't grant you 1-C tier"

That’s exactly the absurd part — Sidious is creating these from nothing. I still don’t understand why creating a 7D structure from nothing wouldn’t qualify as 7D. You say he’s not affecting the entirety of it, but Sidious is literally creating and manipulating them himself. Could you clarify how that doesn’t count as affecting it?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That’s exactly the absurd part — Sidious is creating these from nothing. I still don’t understand why creating a 7D structure from nothing wouldn’t qualify as 7D. You say he’s not affecting the entirety of it, but Sidious is literally creating and manipulating them himself. Could you clarify how that doesn’t count as affecting it?

Because you would need further evidence that his wormholes are themselves as big as the entirety of Hyperspace to claim that.

We have evidence that they can encompass Hyperspace Lanes, which are at minimum 4-A for covering entire star systems. But that's it.

 

[OTG0001]

They are 7-D. I have said it from the start. But they don't affect the "whole" of the 7-D structure (Hyperspace), which is why they can't have 1-C AP.

Very funny: "We grant you the 7-D energies, but we don't grant you 1-C tier"

Would it still be tierable as a smurf?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Would it still be tierable as a smurf?

It is, yes. They are 7-D wormholes to Sidious' 3-D self.

 

[LordVader30]

Because you would need further evidence that his wormholes are themselves as big as the entirety of Hyperspace to claim that.

We have evidence that they can encompass Hyperspace Lanes, which are at minimum 4-A for covering entire star systems. But that's it.

Would these be sufficient?

 

[OTG0001]

It is, yes. They are 7-D wormholes to Sidious' 3-D self.

Mhm, so in the profile, would the it be like X tier physically, X tier with [haxname]?

 

[OTG0001]

Would these be sufficient?

No, this is referring to black holes, which, although they do operate under higher dimensional supergravity, are not force storms.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Would these be sufficient?

First two merely gives us the size to swallow starships and the surface of worlds (which is what we see them do on the comic itself)
Last one is talking about hyperspace, not the wormholes.

So no, doesn't change what we already knew.

 

[Xavis10]

It is, yes. They are 7-D wormholes to Sidious' 3-D self.

How/where in his profile would it be listed?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Gonna be honest - this seems like a whole lot of argument of nothing. If someone can create/destroy a 4D structure, you can't say the guy doesnt have 4D AP because he didnt create/destroy a bigger 4D Structure.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Mhm, so in the profile, would the it be like X tier physically, X tier with [haxname]?

No. We would list it as the following in his powers and abilities section: "Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (energy), Space-Time Manipulation, possibly Law Manipulation (7-D; Can create Force Storms, which twist and render the fabric of space-time by manipulating the energies of Hyperspace in order to create wormholes)"

And adding the references and scans and such

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Gonna be honest - this seems like a whole lot of argument of nothing. If someone can create/destroy a 4D structure, you can't say the guy doesnt have 4D AP because he didnt create/destroy a bigger 4D Structure.

Not under the current tiering system. It is what it is.

 

[Xavis10]

No. We would list it as the following in his powers and abilities section: "Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (energy), Space-Time Manipulation, possibly Law Manipulation (7-D; Can create Force Storms, which twist and render the fabric of space-time by manipulating the energies of Hyperspace in order to create wormholes)"

And adding the references and scans and such

Then on my side ig I can concede that it doesn’t scale to his AP, as silly as I may find that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Then on my side ig I can concede that it doesn’t scale to his AP, ~as stupid as I may find that.~

If it helps, there are plans to change those standards, but they haven't come to fruition

 

[LordVader30]

First two merely gives us the size to swallow starships and the surface of worlds (which is what we see them do on the comic itself)
Last one is talking about hyperspace, not the wormholes.

So no, doesn't change what we already knew.

And the issue is that Hyperspace wormholes are already similar to Hyperspace—one could even say they are the same by definition. Hyperspace lanes have repeatedly been described as infinite (this cannot be the largest Hyperspace we can imagine, because all of these references are clearly directed at travelers, and everyone travels through Hyperspace wormholes). Considering that Sidious manipulated, created, controlled, and linked these, he should very clearly qualify as 1-C.

 

[Xavis10]

If it helps, there are plans to change those standards, but they haven't come to fruition

That’s interesting. Not to deviate from the topic too much, but any idea when that proposal comes to life? Also, how do I put a line through my text?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And the issue is that Hyperspace wormholes are already similar to Hyperspace—one could even say they are the same by definition.

No. You cannot claim such without evidence.

Hyperspace lanes have repeatedly been described as infinite (this cannot be the largest Hyperspace we can imagine, because all of these references are clearly directed at travelers, and everyone travels through Hyperspace wormholes).

Except we know for a fact hyperspace lanes refer to the pathway on hyperspace to travel the galaxy. As such, descriptions such as "endless" are flowery when talking specifically about the lanes. The galaxy isn't endless.

The rest I won't even bother.