MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 9,657
- 5,977
(For now, the examples portion of this CRT is being set aside)
A while ago, this CRT was passed, giving all Bijuu level characters a rating of at least 4.3 gigatons, possibly 4 Teratons (and some upscaling/downscaling from that for certain characters). However, in this CRT, I am proposing that the 6-C rating be scrapped entirely, giving all Bijuu level characters a full Low 6-B+ rating. I won't be arguing that through consistency of calcs, but rather of scaling. There are a plethora of characters ranging from borderline Bijuu level to Early KCM2 Naruto who don't have full scaling, but have evidence of not being unfathomably below top tiers in the 6-B range.
Since this isn't really a single argument that builds upon itself, the bulk of the CRT is gonna be spent listing separate examples that demonstrate how inconsistent it is for there to be a 6-C to 6-B gap between high tiers and top tiers. So with that disclaimer out of the way, feel free to go through all the arguments and see if they holistically convince you (I'd ask you to please refrain from nitpicking too much on individual examples, particularly from the "Supporting Evidence" section, as long as you agree overall, as I'm not currently proposing specific upscales/justification changes for any of these characters other than Edo Madara and the Gokage).
Benchmarks:
I recognize that some of the examples here don't mean much on their own (for varying reasons such as vagueness, outlierishness, not being directly tied to AP, combination attacks being more than A + B), but when there are literally dozens of examples of Bijuu level/+ characters being relevant in some way to top tiers, it just forms a consistency that top tiers are generally meant to be a step or two up from Bijuu level rather than in a complete scaling vacuum.
TL;DR
Bijuu are the GOATs (Agree): SlendVeny, Ghostimuscrime
Those beasts ain't allat (Disagree):
Kaguya solos (Neutral):
Given that this topic is almost entirely removed from the rest of the thread, I'll have a separate vote count for this specific point.
Agree: Nierre, UchihaSlayer96, LephyrTheRevanchist
Disagree: Qawsedf234
Neutral:
A while ago, this CRT was passed, giving all Bijuu level characters a rating of at least 4.3 gigatons, possibly 4 Teratons (and some upscaling/downscaling from that for certain characters). However, in this CRT, I am proposing that the 6-C rating be scrapped entirely, giving all Bijuu level characters a full Low 6-B+ rating. I won't be arguing that through consistency of calcs, but rather of scaling. There are a plethora of characters ranging from borderline Bijuu level to Early KCM2 Naruto who don't have full scaling, but have evidence of not being unfathomably below top tiers in the 6-B range.
Since this isn't really a single argument that builds upon itself, the bulk of the CRT is gonna be spent listing separate examples that demonstrate how inconsistent it is for there to be a 6-C to 6-B gap between high tiers and top tiers. So with that disclaimer out of the way, feel free to go through all the arguments and see if they holistically convince you (I'd ask you to please refrain from nitpicking too much on individual examples, particularly from the "Supporting Evidence" section, as long as you agree overall, as I'm not currently proposing specific upscales/justification changes for any of these characters other than Edo Madara and the Gokage).
Benchmarks:
- Madara
- Juubi
- Juubito
- C0
- Kurama
- Hashirama
Before I get into the full list of examples, what I'd like to establish first, as it impacts several people, is that Edo Madara's Full Body Humanoid Susanoo should be Country level+. While he is notably weaker than his alive self, there's no chance that his Susanoo, which is a manifestation of his own chakra, is thousands of times weaker as an Edo, like the 6-C rating would suggest. In fact, even his 4.97 teraton rating is downplaying significantly, as Edo Tensei are close to their full power, and the difference is even smaller in Madara's case as his Edo Tensei was specially enhanced. Edo Madara's Humanoid Susanoo being in this tier of power is supported by it being able to cause slight cracks on Edo SM Hashirama's Wood Dragon (though it obviously doesn't fully scale considering its slash was mostly tanked, which makes sense as the Wood Dragon should be Large Country level). Thus, one of the only completely new upgrades I'm going to be proposing is that Edo Madara's Susanoo downscales from SM/EMS Madara's to be baseline 6-B+, or 53.5 teratons.
With that established, I'd like to address everyone this affects, as several people already scale to Edo Madara's Susanoo. First and foremost, 7th Gate Guy, who blasts Madara's Susanoo away and briefly incapacitates him. I wouldn't necessarily say this puts Guy at Country level+, as the Susanoo wasn't in its legged state (and doesn't really seem to be full size, but that's a lesser point as the Susanoo's size is drawn inconsistently), but it certainly provides support to the 20 teratons+ rating.
KCM2 Naruto intercepts Edo Madara's Susanoo blade, and my thoughts are essentially the same as they are for Guy. He doesn't have to be upscaled to 53.5 teratons, especially as the Susanoo seems more definitively smaller here, but it adds consistency to him being 20 teratons rather than 21 gigatons.
Then there's the Kage. Unlike Guy and Naruto, I suggest that them scaling to Edo Madara's Humanoid Susanoo should be removed rather than downscaled for a variety of reasons:
With that established, I'd like to address everyone this affects, as several people already scale to Edo Madara's Susanoo. First and foremost, 7th Gate Guy, who blasts Madara's Susanoo away and briefly incapacitates him. I wouldn't necessarily say this puts Guy at Country level+, as the Susanoo wasn't in its legged state (and doesn't really seem to be full size, but that's a lesser point as the Susanoo's size is drawn inconsistently), but it certainly provides support to the 20 teratons+ rating.
KCM2 Naruto intercepts Edo Madara's Susanoo blade, and my thoughts are essentially the same as they are for Guy. He doesn't have to be upscaled to 53.5 teratons, especially as the Susanoo seems more definitively smaller here, but it adds consistency to him being 20 teratons rather than 21 gigatons.
Then there's the Kage. Unlike Guy and Naruto, I suggest that them scaling to Edo Madara's Humanoid Susanoo should be removed rather than downscaled for a variety of reasons:
- Madara was playing against the Kage to test their strengths, and there's no verifiable way to prove he was going all out even aside from the Perfect Susanoo
- Even 100 Healings Tsunade, the strongest member of the team in terms of AP, struggles to break through Madara's Ribcage Susanoo, which is naturally far inferior to the Humanoid variant, letalone the Full Body Humanoid Susanoo
- When Ohnoki Amped Ay punches through Madara's Humanoid Susanoo, it had already been partially melted by Mei (and heat isn't treated as equivalent to AP on the site)
- Most of the other feats the Kage achieve against Madara's Humanoid Susanoo are those of his clones, which aren't as powerful as the original's, and this is particularly noted in the case of Wood Clones, as the user's overall power is implied to be distributed between them and their clones. In Madara's case when there were 25 Susanoos active, this would be a significant nerf for each (not saying each clone has 1/25th of Madara's power, just that they're significantly weaker than him at FP).
- The Kage scaling to KCM2 tier is very inconsistent with their general portrayal as being around SM/KCM1 Naruto
- KCM2 Naruto, while definitely inferior, is able to slightly damage Edo Madara's Wood Dragon with his Kurama Avatar, and it withstands the Wood Dragon biting into its neck for a brief period of time. This is relevant because the Wood Dragon when used by Base Hashirama scales to 100% Kurama. Madara compares his Wood Dragon to Hashirama's, and their usage of the same jutsu being comparable is consistent, as both Edo Madara and Base Hashirama's strongest constructs are comparable to Kurama (I even think this comparison favors Madara for a couple reasons, but that's not particularly relevant right now). Even being conservative, Madara's Wood Dragon should be no weaker than Base Edo Hashirama's Mokuton, which is 98 Teratons, so KCM2 Naruto even scaling barely to Madara's Wood Dragon is pretty incompatible with him being 6-C
- On that note, Edo Madara's Wood Dragon should be upgraded to 98.35 or 196.7 teratons. Personally, I'd suggest the latter, but the former is acceptable too
- KCM2 Naruto survives part of the 1st form Juubi's Bijuudama (which is calced at 4.004 Teratons), and while it was weakened by Bee and Naruto's Bijuudamas, this wouldn't have any practical effect if they were 6-C attacks (Naruto's Bijuudamas shouldn't have been High 6-C as they only get to that level after charging to a much larger size; in a rapid fire state they'd be closer to standard 15.55 gigaton Bijuudamas x 5, or 77.75 gigatons)
- Even being extremely generous and saying that all of Bee and Naruto's Bijuudamas have a regular level of power, Bee launches 4 Bijuudamas and Naruto launches 5, meaning the combined power of their Bijuudamas is at most (using the 6-C meta) around 1.87 teratons, meaning Naruto still had to take ~2.14 teratons of leftover energy
- KCM2 Naruto taking significant damage from this doesn't debunk him being 20 teratons, as a calc provides a minimum, not a cap
- Gamakichi powered by MKCM Naruto's chakra partially blocks/withstands Unstable Juubito's TSO attack
- The Bijuu are relevant in destroying SM Madara's Susanoo
- MKCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke's combination ninjutsu damages the 3rd form Juubi
- Their combination ninjutsu is expected to injure Juubito, who even without them knowing the full strength of, is obviously superior to the Juubi (and KCM Minato, who is a top tier himself, and thought that being able to tank such an attack required "dreamlike power")
- Bijuu Mode Bee's face withstands a small part of a 2nd form Juubidama's explosion and he briefly withstands the impact of a 3rd form Juubidama (whose momentum had been weakened by the Allied Shinobi Force's walls and his Bijuudamas)
- Manda briefly survives after being hit by part of C0 and shielded Sasuke well enough for him to survive it, C0 being calced at 5.4 teratons, more than 1000x above the 6-C Bijuu level rating (in case someone's gonna note that him dying to this is evidence against him being 4 teratons, my thoughts are the same as they are for KCM2 Naruto vs the Juubi's Bijuudama, and I am actually planning to eventually downgrade Manda tier characters somewhat, probably to baseline Low 6-B)
- KCM Naruto has a good portion of 50% Kurama's power, draining him so much that he became skinny. Even acknowledging that it can't be numerically quantified, Naruto certainly has more than 0.005% of Kurama's power, which is how KCM Naruto's 6-C rating compares to 50% Kurama
- While it's not directly shown that he was hit, the Shinsuu Senju assaulted the Perfect Susanoo, destroying it entirely around the area where Madara was standing, yet he was perfectly fine despite almost certainly having taken at least a few leftover hits, especially considering that he looked to be floating above Kurama's head before the Shinsuu Senju attack, and he was standing firmly on Kurama's head after (and even downplaying severely since they wouldn't necessarily stack linearly, each arm would have 396.7+ gigatons of force, as the 1000 arms combined are 396.7+ teratons)
- Hiruzen is able to lead Konoha in battling Kurama for a little while, though they were just holding him off until Minato arrived
- Minato matches a partial Bijuudama from Kurama, who had released 8-9 tails of V2 chakra out of his seal, meaning that Minato should've been dealing with a large portion of his power
- EMS Sasuke's Susanoo blocks Unstable Juubito's TSO (at the cost of it drilling a hole through the Susanoo's hand)
- Tobirama is portrayed as some level of threat to Rinnegan SM Madara (this justification is actually accepted on his profile already), and he withstood his casual palm strike
- MKCM Naruto repels Edo Madara's Susanoo beads (the cloaks were initially given by MKCM2 Naruto though)
- Madara physically breaks out of Deity Gates from a fatigued Hashirama, which at full power were able to withstand a Juubidama
- Madara briefly withstands Amaterasu being in indirect contact with him despite it damaging the Juubi
- The Juubi's Bijuudama being gargantuanly above his physicals is inconsistent with general Bijuu to Bijuudama portrayal, as Bijuu can physically harm people that can survive their Bijuudamas, and the Juubi is an aggregate of the Bijuu, rather than something entirely different
- KCM2 Naruto and BM Bee withstand the Juubi's slap
- It's not consistent for the Susanoo to be tens of thousands of times above the user, as Naruto withstands an attack superior to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo, and Sasuke survives an attack from Jigen, who pierced his Perfect Susanoo
- SM Naruto's Rasengan damages Juubito
- Even if you argue super effectiveness, type advantages aren't necessarily enough to overcome a big enough power gap, and Juubidara/Kaguya have withstood senjutsu attacks, meaning senjutsu doesn't simply ignore the durability of Ten Tails' Jinchuriki
- Unstable Juubito doesn't destroy MKCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke with his rush
- Madara and Obito can control the Juubi with their chakra
- Kushina can restrain Kurama
- Minato and Kushina can create Kurama level barriers
- Minato stops Kurama from breaking out of Kushina
- Tobirama and Hiruzen are portrayed as relevant to the Four Crimson Rays Formation, which withstands a Juubidama, and Naruto/Sasuke comment that all four of the Hokage were impressive for this, not just Hashirama/Minato
- Pain notes that the Juubi's Bijuudamas are "dozens" of times stronger than Chaotic Shinra Tensei, not thousands of times like the 6-C rating would suggest
- Similarly, the Four Crimson Ray Formation is only dozens of times stronger than the Four Purple Flames Formation, which Hiruzen would theoretically be able to break, albeit with difficulty
I recognize that some of the examples here don't mean much on their own (for varying reasons such as vagueness, outlierishness, not being directly tied to AP, combination attacks being more than A + B), but when there are literally dozens of examples of Bijuu level/+ characters being relevant in some way to top tiers, it just forms a consistency that top tiers are generally meant to be a step or two up from Bijuu level rather than in a complete scaling vacuum.
TL;DR
- All characters that are At least 6-C, possibly Low 6-B get upgraded to full on Low 6-B and similar changes apply for those who downscale/upscale from Bijuu level
- Edo Madara's Full Body Humanoid Susanoo gets upgraded to 53.5 teratons
- The Gokage scaling to Madara's Humanoid Susanoo gets removed
- Edo Madara's Wood Dragon gets upgraded to 98.35 or 196.7 teratons (with the latter being my recommendation)
Bijuu are the GOATs (Agree): SlendVeny, Ghostimuscrime
Those beasts ain't allat (Disagree):
Kaguya solos (Neutral):
One of the points discussed in the Calc Group thread about Arc's KN6 Naruto TBB calc is that the forest whose edge is visible in this panel may not even be the Forest of Death, rendering his calc invalid. But this argument makes little to no sense. Let's go through it.
"One of the main flaws with Arc7Kuroi's method as I see it is that his point of comparison for the explosion (the Forest of Death with its 20 km diameter) is mostly off-screen in the panel that he using for his pixelscaling.
This is the original panel with the partially visible forest in the top-right highlighted:
As Arc7Kuroi's pixelscaling shows, the majority of it is completely off-screen. Arc7Kuroi has compensated for this by using a circular guide to assist the pixelscaling (assuming that from the angle we're viewing it at, the Forest of Death would be a perfect circle like that) but it still introduces uncertainty for precise size scaling."
I'm gonna be honest, this argument means nothing. The specific panel doesn't need to show the full forest for us to know it's circular. That's how it's depicted, and it's stated to have a "circular perimeter" (which just makes sense with each team entering the forest from different points along the perimeter and the distance from each gate to the tower being about 10 kilometers). It's not an assumption at all to complete the partially drawn circle shown in the Bijuudama panel.
If the contention is that the angle might mean it's not circular from that panel's POV, this is demonstrably false, given that Arc's overlaid circle aligns almost perfectly with what we do see of the forest.
"Especially since, if we can't see the full landmark, how can we be entirely sure that it is the Forest of Death?
This is the same panel from the official colored version of the manga. It depicts that wide band I've highlighted bordering the forest as being what looks like a river going by the shade of blue.
But as we can tell from the only other existing shot we have of Konoha and the Forest of Death in the same panel, there is no such river encircling the circumference of the forest.
If Kishimoto, over the years, changed how he envisions the layout of Konoha to be, to include a wide stretch of river above it... then we can't be completely sure that what is being pixelscaled here is intended to be the Forest of Death at all. We don't have a complete look at it, so we can't say "This is definitely a completely circular patch of forest, so it must be the Forest of Death."
We see only a small area that has a bend to it following the river, which means it could simply be a forest on the other side of the riverbank and not necessarily the Forest of Death itself."
This is pretty disingenuous. What other huge patch of forest is there in the area left of the Hokage statue mountain? By all of Damage's calculations using other things in the panel as references, the forest is around a kilometer in diameter. That's much larger than any of the other locations (besides the FoD) on the map of Konoha, yet this supposed large random forest is nowhere to be seen.
The simplest explanation is that the forest next to KN6 Naruto's TBB is the Forest of Death. It's in the right area, is the right shape, is a tree-dense forest as the Forest of Death is, has tree-filled rings around the main forest, and is even eyeball wise on the right level of magnitude. It's not impossible that it's a different forest, but the supposed evidence against it of a river surrounding the area (which Godernet provided a sound explanation for) is in no way strong enough to outweigh the obvious reasons it should be considered the Forest of Death.
"One of the main flaws with Arc7Kuroi's method as I see it is that his point of comparison for the explosion (the Forest of Death with its 20 km diameter) is mostly off-screen in the panel that he using for his pixelscaling.
This is the original panel with the partially visible forest in the top-right highlighted:
As Arc7Kuroi's pixelscaling shows, the majority of it is completely off-screen. Arc7Kuroi has compensated for this by using a circular guide to assist the pixelscaling (assuming that from the angle we're viewing it at, the Forest of Death would be a perfect circle like that) but it still introduces uncertainty for precise size scaling."
I'm gonna be honest, this argument means nothing. The specific panel doesn't need to show the full forest for us to know it's circular. That's how it's depicted, and it's stated to have a "circular perimeter" (which just makes sense with each team entering the forest from different points along the perimeter and the distance from each gate to the tower being about 10 kilometers). It's not an assumption at all to complete the partially drawn circle shown in the Bijuudama panel.
If the contention is that the angle might mean it's not circular from that panel's POV, this is demonstrably false, given that Arc's overlaid circle aligns almost perfectly with what we do see of the forest.
"Especially since, if we can't see the full landmark, how can we be entirely sure that it is the Forest of Death?
This is the same panel from the official colored version of the manga. It depicts that wide band I've highlighted bordering the forest as being what looks like a river going by the shade of blue.
But as we can tell from the only other existing shot we have of Konoha and the Forest of Death in the same panel, there is no such river encircling the circumference of the forest.
If Kishimoto, over the years, changed how he envisions the layout of Konoha to be, to include a wide stretch of river above it... then we can't be completely sure that what is being pixelscaled here is intended to be the Forest of Death at all. We don't have a complete look at it, so we can't say "This is definitely a completely circular patch of forest, so it must be the Forest of Death."
We see only a small area that has a bend to it following the river, which means it could simply be a forest on the other side of the riverbank and not necessarily the Forest of Death itself."
This is pretty disingenuous. What other huge patch of forest is there in the area left of the Hokage statue mountain? By all of Damage's calculations using other things in the panel as references, the forest is around a kilometer in diameter. That's much larger than any of the other locations (besides the FoD) on the map of Konoha, yet this supposed large random forest is nowhere to be seen.
The simplest explanation is that the forest next to KN6 Naruto's TBB is the Forest of Death. It's in the right area, is the right shape, is a tree-dense forest as the Forest of Death is, has tree-filled rings around the main forest, and is even eyeball wise on the right level of magnitude. It's not impossible that it's a different forest, but the supposed evidence against it of a river surrounding the area (which Godernet provided a sound explanation for) is in no way strong enough to outweigh the obvious reasons it should be considered the Forest of Death.
Given that this topic is almost entirely removed from the rest of the thread, I'll have a separate vote count for this specific point.
Agree: Nierre, UchihaSlayer96, LephyrTheRevanchist
Disagree: Qawsedf234
Neutral:
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