Updated/re-adjusting Demon King Daimaou ratings

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I trust your evaluation then.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Personally I think it sounds ok, but I'm not the 1-A guy.

BTW, currently Regular Storytellers (Extra-Universal Gods) are rated as Unknown. Do you think it'd be fine to have them as baseline 1-A due to R>F?

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Agree with this, not long left until high 1A+ Akuto Sai is achieved—if Ultima does not show up with an issue—and nice, fancily describing.

Tbh, this is the verse that truly got me into power scaling.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

BTW, currently Regular Storytellers (Extra-Universal Gods) are rated as Unknown. Do you think it'd be fine to have them as baseline 1-A due to R>F?

My opinion may not matter, but it should be fine if they are able to create stories that contain universes while being outside the stories and the things they contain.

The reason why Ultima was fine with this is R>F.

Stuff about things being contained in the dreams of its residents (Which is also described as "a principle way outside time, space and dimensions.

 

[Mizuki67]

I honestly think H1A+ could actually work ngl. I had discussed it with my friend before. Anyways I agree with this

 

[Duragoji123]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members have accepted or disagreed with what here?

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Which staff members have accepted or disagreed with what here?

DontTalkDT is fine with the rating adjustment and what's in the sandbox.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me as well then, but we probably need more staff input here.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT is fine with the rating adjustment and what's in the sandbox.

Okay. That seems fine to me as well then, but we probably need more staff input here.

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Duedate8898 @FinePoint @Mr._Propeller_Hat @AbaddonTheDisappointment @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Nierre]

I'm also "not the 1-A guy" but what DT has accepted is okay to me.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This all seems good to me (Except the Computer Gods at High 1-B now, not Low 2-C). Creating something doesn't imply superiority towards it, not in the way that would violate High 1-A+, so both it and the Anti-Universe being High 1-A+ is fine.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

This all seems good to me (Except the Computer Gods at High 1-B now, not Low 2-C).

Yeah, I'll combine The Computer God explanation page into the cosmology blog while updating it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

I think that what DontTalk and our other staff members have accepted here can probably be applied now then.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Thank you very much for helping out.

I think that what DontTalk and our other staff members have accepted here can probably be applied now then.

Alright, then I will apply the changes.

Thank you to everyone who helped out here!

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Thank you for helping out.

Do you need help with unlocking and then locking pages, so you can revise their contents, before we close this thread?

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Do you need help with unlocking and then locking pages, so you can revise their contents, before we close this thread?

Yes. I was going to ask in the all-purpose thread, but if the following pages can be unlocked that would be great:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichiban_Ushiro_no_Daimaou_Explanation_Page
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Akuto_Sai
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hiroshi_Miwa
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Boichiro_Yamato
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Law_of_Identity
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Extra-universal_Gods

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked them for you. Tell us here when you are done.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Thank you very much for helping out.

I think that what DontTalk and our other staff members have accepted here can probably be applied now then.

I have quite a few contentions that arised from me looking into the novel more, I’ll be able to post them sometime in the next 24 hours. Could the thread’s closure wait until then?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Of course. That is perfectly fine.

 

[Antvasima]

I have quite a few contentions that arised from me looking into the novel more, I’ll be able to post them sometime in the next 24 hours. Could the thread’s closure wait until then?

Yes. Of course. That is perfectly fine.

@StorytellingDemonKing

Please wait a while with applying these revisions.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

I have unlocked them for you. Tell us here when you are done.

I have applied the accepted changes. These pages can be closed:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichiban_Ushiro_no_Daimaou_Explanation_Page
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Akuto_Sai
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hiroshi_Miwa
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Boichiro_Yamato
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Law_of_Identity
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Extra-universal_Gods

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

@StorytellingDemonKing

Please wait a while with applying these revisions.

Ah, just applied them. Didn't see the messages.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Please revert those changes for the time being.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Sure, I'll revert them for now.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

I have undone the changes for now. I just hope the contentions wont be repetitive arguments that have been debunked in 6 previous threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Vesxpura]

The law of identity is already a logical truth and does extend to all possible worlds. so i dont see why it couldnt be in dkd. but i dont agree with the void body scaling there

 

[Wankbreaker]

@StorytellingDemonKing

Please wait a while with applying these revisions.

Alright, so first. The R>F here just straight up does not fit with the standards that exist currently. It is heavily contradictory, to the point where I just cannot understand how this could be reasonably upheld under the current standards with good faith. If any of this was already discussed before, it was under the old standards, and thus any conclusion reached there does not apply to the new tiering system. Effectively everything is uncovered territory, so no, bringing arguments from 2+ years ago is not an effective rebuttal to DKD not applying by the current standard.





The Afterlife, a realm that is being proposed as High 1-A, can be accessed by travelling between dimensions:

But once you put the empress into cold sleep, you need to enter the world of the afterlife using the Robe of the Fire Rat.”

“Y-yes. The Robe of the Fire Rat supposedly opens the door to the world of the afterlife. We have that one and it may be like high level necromancy. Or maybe it’s a device to travel between dimensions. Anyway, the other is Peterhausen. If you sum it up, that one acts as combat ability for the demon king, a device, and a guide.”


“A millennium!? What are you talking about? Are you saying everyone else will die?” shouted Yuuko in confusion. But Yoshie still remained calm and nodded. “You can’t think of death like that. If my theory is correct, there is an afterlife and the Robe of the Fire Rat can be used to move to and from it.”

So already, there is a huge issue, but there is more. Beings/things who should be “fictional” can interact with, and even beat on some occasions, the characters that are supposed to be more”real” than they are.

Who knows. But to me, you didn’t seem like someone who never did anything.” Akuto smiled. “And even if this world was created by the Law of Identity, we all have our own wills. If our wills were strong enough, do you think we managed to influence this world?”


“A strong will, huh? Even if we’re nothing but fictional characters?” “Yes. I’m sure we set something large in motion. If I don’t believe that, there’s no reason to be here right now.” “Setting something in motion with a strong will, hm?”


I felt like I’d seen the core essence of stories. This was a story written to destroy stories, and it was clear that the stories were fighting back. Looking back, there had been many obstacles in my way up until this point, but all of them were caused by the stories controlling my memories and actions. This goes for how books sell, too.

The stories created by Akuto and gods are capable of fighting each other even though there should have been multiple layers of 1-A gaps between them:

On the other hand, the stories created by the extra-universal gods were intended to destroy his desires. Also, its outer surface as a story was hidden, so it was shown as if it were the truth. That too was a final shape of a story.

The narrative also establishes that, at a fundamental level, the gods lack a hierarchy amongst themselves, including the Law of Identity.

“Outside of this world, Keena and the outer gods are of equal importance, no doubt. The Law of Identity itself is no exception either.”

These divine entities, including the Extra-Universal Gods (EUGs), are portrayed as having agency and concerns, notably a desire to defend against extra-universal warfare from entities they should view as fictional.

I negotiated with the thought entity named The One in order to reach an agreement with the extra-universal gods. They too wanted a world they could live in without fear of an inter-universal invasion.”

The EUGs are shown to be potentially defeatable through methods like time travel, initiated by beings they should be viewing fictional, suggesting their power is not absolute over these lower “layers”.

“The fact that the invasion was a success means the future ultimately could not be changed.” “When you put it that way, I can sort of understand,” said Hiroshi. “But if this place is our ‘extra time’, don’t we still have a chance?”

.

“Still have a chance? What do you mean by that?” It was now Bouichirou’s turn to ask a question. A chance to change the past. It seems simple to me. We stop the internal conflict and the elimination of the magical civilization and instead advance a plan to win the war against the extra universal gods.”

Despite claims of Akuto's complete superiority and ability to erase EUGs, the text explicitly shows interactions where they pose a genuine threat and can even defeat him.

However, the most troublesome part of the work was the elements brought in by the extra-universal gods. That included things not possessed by the Law of Identity.

Akuto fought with those extra-universal gods a few times. Sometimes he won.



A story was created in which Akuto attended an academy in an unnamed alternate world. He was dominated by Fujiko and he struggled to help her take over the world. It ended with Fujiko’s world domination never coming to fruition and the two of them never even kissing. He finished testing that possibility.

Sometimes the extra-universal gods won.

Additionally, there is 0 basis for the idea that Akuto interacts with these stories by inserting a "less real" Avatar version of himself,

Further evidence challenging Akuto's absolute dominance over these lower layers come from depictions of the EUGs as active agents capable of invading and causing chaos.

“It is my turn now. My prediction has been proven true, but that is simply because I based it on accurate data and experience. It is only natural that it came true. You ignored my warning. The extra-universal gods are now invading and throwing everything into chaos.”

The notion of Akuto viewing EUGs as mere fiction is further complicated when a god-like entity, the Void Universe, manifests within Akuto's created reality ("Afterlife stories") as a distinct character.

“I am the Void Universe,” the black figure said. It was a strange voice, only audible if you strained to hear.

“The Void Universe?”

Akuto’s question seemed to get through to it. There was a faint answer, difficult to hear, but clear if you focused on the sound and not the words.

“A universe with no stories. No matter. Only a single voice. The only things there are the occasional voices meaning things like ‘you’, ‘thou’, ‘vous’ or ‘sue’.”


Also, the appearance of the Void Universe doesn't signify Akuto's transcendence over it. Instead, the story presents achieving a state akin to the Void Universe as the next evolutionary step for Akuto himself, undermining the idea that he is fundamentally superior to this type of entity.

All the souls gathered. Anger, sorrow, jealousy, envy, all of those feelings were spat out, to be left behind in this world. The universe began to contract. Space folded around Akuto, and closed.

“Are you taking me too?” Korone asked, as she was absorbed into Akuto.

“Just like Zero, a personality can affix itself to a liradan and gain a self. You have a self too.”

Akuto smiled. His body began to shrink as well. He was absorbed into Keena too.

Eventually Keena turned inside out, and disappeared into this new world — the anti-universe. All that was left was void was within void. Void without even words. In other words, a new void universe was born.

I think that is enough to disprove R>F. Now for the LOI.


As discussed in the above quotes, there are things that she does not possess, and she exists at the same level as the other EUGs. But here are some more quotes, just in case.

While thinking on that, Hiroshi felt a dark emotion welling up within him.

If he killed someone or changed history in an important and definitive way, it was possible not even the Law of Identity could prevent it.

However, the most troublesome part of the work was the elements brought in by the extra-universal gods. That included things not possessed by the Law of Identity.

“Outside of this world, Keena and the outer gods are of equal importance, no doubt. The Law of Identity itself is no exception either.”



“Keena and the extra-universal gods are of equal importance once you leave this world. And that includes the Law of Identity.”

Akuto whispered to himself as he gathered his thoughts. And then he had a realization, and let out a sharp gasp.“The awfulness felt when you realized that you are you... The Law of Identity!”When he realized this, another voice appeared.“The Faceless Universe allows the Law of Identity to exist.”

“That’s a shitty way to end a story. Especially since I can’t even see you.” “From your perspective, I’m just a story too, after all,” the Law of Identity said.

She cant even rewrite something as simple as a solar system completely:

She is a human created from the data distortion caused by the Law of Identity?”
“Yes. You may not believe it, but the Law of Identity has the ability to do such things.”
Fujiko and Korone were on their way to the old library.
“Then can the Law of Identity create a new world?”
“Most likely. However, it appears she does not have the power needed to transform this entire world.

So she obviously doesnt meet the "functional omnipotence" of high 1-A+

 

[ScrollerGNL]

I agree with Wankbreaker's points.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Alright, so first. The R>F here just straight up does not fit with the standards that exist currently. It is heavily contradictory, to the point where I just cannot understand how this could be reasonably upheld under the current standards with good faith. If any of this was already discussed before, it was under the old standards, and thus any conclusion reached there does not apply to the new tiering system. Effectively everything is uncovered territory, so no, bringing arguments from 2+ years ago is not an effective rebuttal to DKD not applying by the current standard.

It does actually fit the standards, and I've seen everything brought up here on previous threads and they simply don't hold up due to being surface-level analysis of what the story is trying to tell. This is just bringing debunked arguments from 2+ years ago as if it changes anything.

To TL;DR before I get to it, since a lot of it will repeat:

There is no contradiction to R>F as everything you think is a contradiction is explained by the fact that it's simply so because it's written like that. You can read "Can't Change What Has Been Written" section of the blog in additional R>F proof part of the "The Main Story is Fiction" explanation in the blog, since besides as the name it implies, it also explains that even thinking you can change the story or have free will is an illusion. In fact, it's a huge plot point in Act 13 that Brave does everything because its written so, even him realizing that is written. That alone debunks any anti R>F arguments, but I will try to do extra breakdowns to not be repetitive.

The Afterlife, a realm that is being proposed as High 1-A, can be accessed by travelling between dimensions:

The Afterlife can only be traveled to by Akuto, aka the Demon King who already has been there and back via an in-verse mechanism created by The Law Of Identity, a High 1-A+ being:

“That’s right. Only the Demon King can enter and leave it,” Yoshie said. ”So this is the plan: We take Keena, the Demon King, and then the Jeweled Branch, the Robe of the Fire Rat, and the Dragon’s Neck Jewel up to the old space station. Then she goes into cold sleep, and after the asteroid hits, the Demon King enters the afterlife.”

Volume 12

It should also be mentioned that Akuto is specifically a special person to TLOI. So, yeah, it's not a contradiction because TLOI made it that way.

So already, there is a huge issue, but there is more. Beings/things who should be “fictional” can interact with, and even beat on some occasions, the characters that are supposed to be more”real” than they are.

This is a little funny to me because indeed this was also debunked by DT. The first extract is Yoshie talking about influencing their world, so there's not even contradiction to R>F, not to mention as I've said before, free will doesn't exist, so this too would be happening because TLOI wrote it that way. (DT debunked it years ago. Funny, you say old debunks can't be used yet you use old arguments that don't change anything.)

The stories created by Akuto and gods are capable of fighting each other even though there should have been multiple layers of 1-A gaps between them:

Akuto is supposed to create all possible logically non-contradictory worlds, and that's what he does, so it makes sense some stories would be one's where he "loses". For example, he wrote that he died in the Korean war if I remember correctly, or if he wanted to he could create a story where he lived out a happy life. Cool. Another thing debunked by DT years ago.

The narrative also establishes that, at a fundamental level, the gods lack a hierarchy amongst themselves, including the Law of Identity.

You mean like how there's no difference between a 10-B character and Boundless one to us, since we view all of them as fiction? Not going to lie, if anything this backs up the idea that the R>F is actually far deeper and more akin to how we see fiction.

These divine entities, including the Extra-Universal Gods (EUGs), are portrayed as having agency and concerns, notably a desire to defend against extra-universal warfare from entities they should view as fictional.

It actually doesn't say remotely what you're saying. They aren't afraid of entities they should view as fiction there.

The EUGs are shown to be potentially defeatable through methods like time travel, initiated by beings they should be viewing fictional, suggesting their power is not absolute over these lower “layers”.

I'm not going to post the entire plot point of Brave's and Boichiro's discussion here, so I will just TL;DR this section from the blog that I wrote, since you just took this WAY out of context:

Truth itself is relative to what is written, and any attempt to change the world simply follows the story’s predetermined script. No action is truly independent, as even efforts to rebel against the story are part of the narrative. This aligns perfectly with the Reality > Fiction hierarchy, as the very concept of "truth" is contingent on the whims of the one telling the story.

So, yeah, that's my TL;DR of the larger scene you're taking out of context. This isn't talking about "potentially defeating" them or anything close to that, the entire scene-which you took a small bit out of context-is about the fact that everything you do is written and is explaining away any potential "contradiction" you may think of.

Despite claims of Akuto's complete superiority and ability to erase EUGs, the text explicitly shows interactions where they pose a genuine threat and can even defeat him.

Yeah, so remember how I mention that Akuto is supposed to create all possible stories? Yeah, that would logically include him being defeated. Not to mention, both Archetype Gods and Akuto are being argued baseline High 1-A, so yeah.

Additionally, there is 0 basis for the idea that Akuto interacts with these stories by inserting a "less real" Avatar version of himself,

He literally wrote himself being killed in Korea and other self-inserts. It's "0 basis" only if you need every little detail spelled out for you:

Akuto was killed there. He’d been a member of the league. What shocked him, just before his death, was that the Korean police who killed him didn’t even know what communism was.

Volume 13

Next scene is him moving on to viewing the next fictional story, since that's what he's supposed to do. (Quite literally, next scene is him creating a story about Yoshie)

Further evidence challenging Akuto's absolute dominance over these lower layers come from depictions of the EUGs as active agents capable of invading and causing chaos.

Well, first thing is, you're missing that appearing in the Afterlife isn't actually a contradiction, since that's just them appearing. But, most likely this is talking about them simply appearing in lower-layers in Akuto's stories as narrative tools. Akuto later says the outer gods “became stories,” proving they’re now fiction, so this literally doesn't matter.

Akuto thought for a moment about what Boichiro said. Then, he spoke.

“I’ll summon the outer gods.” That surprised even Boichiro.

“Can you do that?”

“They’ve become stories too, or at least they should have. I don’t know if I can communicate with them on a deep level. We don’t share any stories. But it should be possible.”

Volume 13

The chaos Boichiro is refering to is unneeded things Akuto included in his stories.

The notion of Akuto viewing EUGs as mere fiction is further complicated when a god-like entity, the Void Universe, manifests within Akuto's created reality ("Afterlife stories") as a distinct character.

I am assuming this is meant as the cut-off, yes:

Also, the appearance of the Void Universe doesn't signify Akuto's transcendence over it. Instead, the story presents achieving a state akin to the Void Universe as the next evolutionary step for Akuto himself, undermining the idea that he is fundamentally superior to this type of entity.

So, like... you are literally ignoring the fact that here he explicitly summoned them? Literally jut now gonna quote what I extracted moments before:

Akuto thought for a moment about what Boichiro said. Then, he spoke.

“I’ll summon the outer gods.” That surprised even Boichiro.

“Can you do that?”

“They’ve become stories too, or at least they should have. I don’t know if I can communicate with them on a deep level. We don’t share any stories. But it should be possible.”

Volume 13

So, like, I'm not saying you're purposefully dishonest, but it does come off that way

Instead, the story presents achieving a state akin to the Void Universe as the next evolutionary step for Akuto himself, undermining the idea that he is fundamentally superior to this type of entity.

This is just you trying to mix things that don't. Not the same voids or steps.

I think that is enough to disprove R>F. Now for the LOI.

Out-of-context quotes and straight up misinterpreting scenes doesn't disprove R>F.

As discussed in the above quotes, there are things that she does not possess, and she exists at the same level as the other EUGs. But here are some more quotes, just in case.

Yeah, so the things she doesn't posses is a reference to certain themes and story choices, not literally not having them. She wants to end story a certain way which doesn't have different tropes. (Since she wants both Akuto and herself to be satisfied.) This was actually debunked by DT years ago. And I debunked the latter before, so you're just repeating yourself here.

She cant even rewrite something as simple as a solar system completely:

So she obviously doesnt meet the "functional omnipotence" of high 1-A+

Korone doesn't have much knowledge in this scene, and as I wrote before, Korone saying that would also be written by TLOI anyway. So, let's actually add this quote that debunks this absurd notion:

Boichiro began to choose his words carefully.

“That’s what you were saying before.”

“The afterlife is within the boundaries of her creation as well. And we can assume that it’s within the domain of the Demon King, too.”

Brave nodded again.

“I see. Everyone died and was reborn... But at the hands of the Demon King.”

Volume 13

Literally everything, including the Afterlife, is within the boundaries of TLOI's creation.

In the beginning I did a small TL;DR about how most contradictions to R>F is explained by the fact that it's written that way, and looks like I was right in what you will argue.

So, another small TL;DR:

You take small snippets of quotes out of context, borderline leaving me confused, since you said Void Universe invade Akuto's world even though he literally summoned it, and then go on to ignore the entire massive section of Brave's and Boichiro's scene in the Afterlife which proves that there's no contradiction to R>F, since everything you do and think is written/decided by TLOI.

Hopefully I have answered all the contentions.

 

[Reiner04]

1. TLOI is simply beyond logic. Her being within logic would (ignoring option 2) create Russel's antimony, just with "world"/"story" instead of "set". But if she is beyond logic that is no issue. Or, to say it another way, as only logically possible worlds are included, a god beyond logic wouldn't be in them to begin with, resolving the problem. This doesn't restrict the actual scope of worlds, as High 1-A+ doesn't require all worlds to be part of an entity, only the possible ones. Logically impossible worlds need not be included to get the rating.

Ig in that case thread is fine.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Ig in that case thread is fine.

Thank you for your evaluation!

 

[Wankbreaker]

It does actually fit the standards, and I've seen everything brought up here on previous threads and they simply don't hold up due to being surface-level analysis of what the story is trying to tell. This is just bringing debunked arguments from 2+ years ago as if it changes anything.

To TL;DR before I get to it, since a lot of it will repeat:

There is no contradiction to R>F as everything you think is a contradiction is explained by the fact that it's simply so because it's written like that. You can read "Can't Change What Has Been Written" section of the blog in additional R>F proof part of the "The Main Story is Fiction" explanation in the blog, since besides as the name it implies, it also explains that even thinking you can change the story or have free will is an illusion. In fact, it's a huge plot point in Act 13 that Brave does everything because its written so, even him realizing that is written. That alone debunks any anti R>F arguments, but I will try to do extra breakdowns to not be repetitive.

In order for this to work, TLOI would have to be perfectly omniscient, and absolutely nothing would be able to deviate from her will, both things which have been contradicted in the story.

Keena is able to use her own will to defy TLOI, but "barely". However, this caveat doesnt matter here, as it proves that it is possible to resist her.


TLOI also says that she doesn't know if she can do "everything", and only knows Keena's wishes up to a certain extent, which wouldnt make sense if she determined literally everything to exist in the verse the exact way she wants it to be, as she would already know both of these things fully.



so yea.... there's something with with your argument. as a result, i will be skipping the arguments that hinge on this, due to addressing the source.

The Afterlife can only be traveled to by Akuto, aka the Demon King who already has been there and back via an in-verse mechanism created by The Law Of Identity, a High 1-A+ being:

How does this debunk the method of travel that these characters use to get there? They get there by dimensional travel, thats blatant enough. Nothing reconciles this.

It should also be mentioned that Akuto is specifically a special person to TLOI. So, yeah, it's not a contradiction because TLOI made it that way.

This is a little funny to me because indeed this was also debunked by DT. The first extract is Yoshie talking about influencing their world, so there's not even contradiction to R>F, not to mention as I've said before, free will doesn't exist, so this too would be happening because TLOI wrote it that way. (DT debunked it years ago. Funny, you say old debunks can't be used yet you use old arguments that don't change anything.)

do they not talking about rebelling against the plot that a higher being has set? if not,whatever, has no greater significance to the arguments anyway.

Akuto is supposed to create all possible logically non-contradictory worlds, and that's what he does, so it makes sense some stories would be one's where he "loses".

I dont think Akuto losing had much to do with the stories themselves

For example, he wrote that he died in the Korean war if I remember correctly, or if he wanted to he could create a story where he lived out a happy life. Cool. Another thing debunked by DT years ago.

scans?

You mean like how there's no difference between a 10-B character and Boundless one to us, since we view all of them as fiction? Not going to lie, if anything this backs up the idea that the R>F is actually far deeper and more akin to how we see fiction.

I don't understand how that follows from, "all EUG's, and the LOI have no hierarchy and are of the same existential scale." are you sure you read that correctly?

It actually doesn't say remotely what you're saying. They aren't afraid of entities they should view as fiction there.

You say, with no argument or s

I'm not going to post the entire plot point of Brave's and Boichiro's discussion here, so I will just TL;DR this section from the blog that I wrote, since you just took this WAY out of context:

So, yeah, that's my TL;DR of the larger scene you're taking out of context. This isn't talking about "potentially defeating" them or anything close to that, the entire scene-which you took a small bit out of context-is about the fact that everything you do is written and is explaining away any potential "contradiction" you may think of.

Yeah, so remember how I mention that Akuto is supposed to create all possible stories? Yeah, that would logically include him being defeated. Not to mention, both Archetype Gods and Akuto are being argued baseline High 1-A, so yeah.

Akuto losing while being more "real" would be illogical, as that would be like asserting that he both has, and doesnt have a transcendence, which violates the law of contradiction.

He literally wrote himself being killed in Korea and other self-inserts. It's "0 basis" only if you need every little detail spelled out for you:

Again, nothing directly saying what you're arguing.

Next scene is him moving on to viewing the next fictional story, since that's what he's supposed to do. (Quite literally, next scene is him creating a story about Yoshie)


Well, first thing is, you're missing that appearing in the Afterlife isn't actually a contradiction, since that's just them appearing. But, most likely this is talking about them simply appearing in lower-layers in Akuto's stories as narrative tools. Akuto later says the outer gods “became stories,” proving they’re now fiction, so this literally doesn't matter.

this is stated before he summons them

The chaos Boichiro is refering to is unneeded things Akuto included in his stories.

I am assuming this is meant as the cut-off, yes:

Also, the appearance of the Void Universe doesn't signify Akuto's transcendence over it. Instead, the story presents achieving a state akin to the Void Universe as the next evolutionary step for Akuto himself, undermining the idea that he is fundamentally superior to this type of entity.

So, like... you are literally ignoring the fact that here he explicitly summoned them? Literally jut now gonna quote what I extracted moments before:

So, like, I'm not saying you're purposefully dishonest, but it does come off that way

This is just you trying to mix things that don't. Not the same voids or steps.

again, proof? evidence?

Out-of-context quotes and straight up misinterpreting scenes doesn't disprove R>F.

Yeah, so the things she doesn't posses is a reference to certain themes and story choices, not literally not having them. She wants to end story a certain way which doesn't have different tropes. (Since she wants both Akuto and herself to be satisfied.) This was actually debunked by DT years ago. And I debunked the latter before, so you're just repeating yourself here.

yet physical things like machines and cities are story "elemen.ts"

Korone doesn't have much knowledge in this scene, and as I wrote before, Korone saying that would also be written by TLOI anyway. So, let's actually add this quote that debunks this absurd notion:

justification for the former? Also, how does the latter disprove that she was limited in warping her own creation, as describe?

Literally everything, including the Afterlife, is within the boundaries of TLOI's creation.

In the beginning I did a small TL;DR about how most contradictions to R>F is explained by the fact that it's written that way, and looks like I was right in what you will argue.

So, another small TL;DR:

You take small snippets of quotes out of context, borderline leaving me confused, since you said Void Universe invade Akuto's world even though he literally summoned it, and then go on to ignore the entire massive section of Brave's and Boichiro's scene in the Afterlife which proves that there's no contradiction to R>F, since everything you do and think is written/decided by TLOI.

Hopefully I have answered all the contentions.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Ig in that case thread is fine.

High 1-A+: Set of everything a Tier 0 can create

The set itself is limited to logical worlds, illogical worlds are excluded

Illogical stuff is outside of God's creative capacity

They are beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable.

DT is just making the system incoherent, as he is implying that TLOI surpasses the creative capability of a tier 0. Also,are we going to ignore the fact that there is an entire hierarchy above the afterlife’s “possible worlds?”

 

[Reiner04]

High 1-A+: Set of everything a Tier 0 can create

The set itself is limited to logical worlds, illogical worlds are excluded

Illogical stuff is outside of God's creative capacity

illogical worlds are unquantifiable, but We still have extended Model realism at High 1-A+. So we don't really disregard it, entirely.

 

[Wankbreaker]

illogical worlds are unquantifiable, but We still have extended Model realism at High 1-A+. So we don't really disregard it, entirely.

Doesn’t the High 1-A+ section explicitly say all possible worlds governed by the 3 laws of thought?

Either way, there’s still the whole unsurpassable aspect. Not only is there a whole infinite hierarchy above these possible worlds, but arguing LOI to be above logic is still very incoherent.

 

[Reiner04]

Doesn’t the High 1-A+ section explicitly say all possible worlds governed by the 3 laws of thought?

Ultima said because illogical stuff is just bunch of unquantifiable stuff, extended model realism is equals to High 1-A+ cosmology. So DonttalkDT is not really wrong here.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

In order for this to work, TLOI would have to be perfectly omniscient, and absolutely nothing would be able to deviate from her will, both things which have been contradicted in the story.

Keena is able to use her own will to defy TLOI, but "barely". However, this caveat doesnt matter here, as it proves that it is possible to resist her.

Keena doesn't use her will her, that's straight up not even her here. Not to mention you're not actually countering the fact that everything that happens is because it is written. Nothing says TLOI needs Omniscience, don't see why Tier 1 characters with R>F suddenly need it, considering nothing deviates from the plan anyway. Since as I mentioned, even characters thinking that they can change something is part of the story:

“That’s the kind of story this was.”

“What?”

“A story that’s revealed to be a story. The deus ex machina that appears at just the right moment isn’t there for the sake of catharsis. It has appeared to tell us what it is that we were thinking is a story, and tell us that is fictional. What that god tells us is the pleasure of a story, and its limits. And now, we’ve become the deus ex machina. We ourselves have become the god.” Boichiro pointed to himself, and then back to Brave.

Volume 13

TLOI also says that she doesn't know if she can do "everything", and only knows Keena's wishes up to a certain extent, which wouldnt make sense if she determined literally everything to exist in the verse the exact way she wants it to be, as she would already know both of these things fully.

At most this would be proof that TLOI is so powerful she doesn't even know the extent of what she can't do. Also, TLOI is purposefully vague here as she guides Keena in a different direction-talking about Akuto and Boichiro. Which, BTW, happens. TLOI interacting with her characters as she wants is not a contradiction.

so yea.... there's something with with your argument. as a result, i will be skipping the arguments that hinge on this, due to addressing the source.

You want to skip it simply because you don't have a counter argument to this. It's a simple fact established in V13 as we see Brave struggle, and struggle, and struggle, all part of the story, even his realization. It's a simple fact that everyone, even Akuto within the Afterlife, follows the lines of a story:

“In this world... No, that’s not the right way to say it. In any world, free will is an illusion. You’re doing what you’re doing because you have a result that you want to achieve. But that’s because you’re thinking along the lines of a story. If you want happiness, all you need is a full stomach and a member of the opposite sex by your side. Even if they die, your sense of loss won’t last too long. There’s no need you have that someone else can’t fulfill. If they’re hungry, even the most discriminating diner will eat what’s in front of them. There’s no difference between biological satisfaction and happiness. Or at least there wouldn’t be, if it weren’t for stories. Love. Bloodlines. Success. Life paths. All values of these are religions in their own right, distinct from biological value. Stories are what make sentience possible. But they also infect it. Like a virus.”

Volume 13

How does this debunk the method of travel that these characters use to get there? They get there by dimensional travel, thats blatant enough. Nothing reconciles this.

Since everything is a story written by TLOI, including traveling to the Afterlife, it reconciled by the fact that it's done with outside help. Pretty simply IMO.

do they not talking about rebelling against the plot that a higher being has set? if not,whatever, has no greater significance to the arguments anyway.

They don't, no. There is a difference with hoping to influence things in their world, and straight up influencing higher worlds-which never happens. Not to mention Yoshie never even affect TLOI, simply that's how far she could go with Keena's willpower. And even then, let me quote Boichiro one more time:

“In this world... No, that’s not the right way to say it. In any world, free will is an illusion. You’re doing what you’re doing because you have a result that you want to achieve. But that’s because you’re thinking along the lines of a story. If you want happiness, all you need is a full stomach and a member of the opposite sex by your side. Even if they die, your sense of loss won’t last too long. There’s no need you have that someone else can’t fulfill. If they’re hungry, even the most discriminating diner will eat what’s in front of them. There’s no difference between biological satisfaction and happiness. Or at least there wouldn’t be, if it weren’t for stories. Love. Bloodlines. Success. Life paths. All values of these are religions in their own right, distinct from biological value. Stories are what make sentience possible. But they also infect it. Like a virus.”

Volume 13

I dont think Akuto losing had much to do with the stories themselves

It did. I think it's the most straight forward answer: Akuto is supposed to create all possible worlds that are logically non-contradictory, and those verbatim include him dying, so him losing is also stories.

scans?

I posted them later, but here you go once more:

Akuto was killed there. He’d been a member of the league. What shocked him, just before his death, was that the Korean police who killed him didn’t even know what communism was.

Volume 13

I don't understand how that follows from, "all EUG's, and the LOI have no hierarchy and are of the same existential scale." are you sure you read that correctly?

I have no clue what you are asking here. Follows from what to what? I think I read it correctly, yes, since they are talking from an outside perspective, for example, us, seeing them all equally fictional.

You say, with no argument or s

You mean how The One simply didn't want to invade other universes, yet you somehow interpreted it as anything to do with EUG?

“I’m sorry. This is how I’ve always been. It’s not something I can do anything about,” he said. “This isn’t the future I knew, but the ending is exactly as I predicted. I know what happened in the history that you know. I attempted to negotiate with The One, their avatar, in order to make a contract with them. I thought they wanted a world where they wouldn’t have to invade other universes as well.”

Volume 13

Akuto losing while being more "real" would be illogical, as that would be like asserting that he both has, and doesnt have a transcendence, which violates the law of contradiction.

Akuto's avatar's lost, as the EUG were story elements within Akuto's fiction that he wrote. (You know, there nothing being wrong with all possible worlds including Akuto losing, sine that too is a possible world.) I'm not asserting that he both has and doesn't have transcendence.

Again, nothing directly saying what you're arguing.

That's unironically a you problem here, you simply need everything to be spelled out even after I've provided context. Here it is once more:

Akuto was killed there. He’d been a member of the league. What shocked him, just before his death, was that the Korean police who killed him didn’t even know what communism was.

Yoshie was reborn in another world, carrying her memories of her previous life. This other world was medieval, and she used the power of science to do great deeds there. This story was easily ended when he realized that the ending wouldn’t be a story.

Volume 13

As seen here, Akuto's avatars (or, more accurately, self-inserts) are the ones within the stories. Afterall, his job isn't to die and then it randomly pops to a nother world. Its to look for an optimal ending:

“Whatever is left at the end is what you want. View every possible world, and then choose the one you want.”

Volume 13

this is stated before he summons them

Yeah, you didn't argue anything here. All it confirms when Akuto is satisfied with the ending he's been looking for the Afterlife will end, including eternal beings. Which technically does happen at the end of the novel with characters bein freed from their roles.

again, proof? evidence?

Proof of what? Quoting Void Universe from Chapter 4 and trying to tie it to characters being freed from their roles in Chapter 6? Not only are they fundamentally different, in that the Void Universe is an archetype god, but the steps towards the "void universe" (part of the anti-universe ritual) is completely differently described and not an actual entity. They have no correlation whatsoever. One is a character representing the nothingness as a story and the later is characters being freed from their roles. So yeah, this isn't even mixing apple and oranges, its 100x worse. Baseless.

yet physical things like machines and cities are story "elemen.ts"

It's almost like one author may want to write a medieval story, and another would want to write something more modern and etc. Not an actual answer or a counter argument.

justification for the former? Also, how does the latter disprove that she was limited in warping her own creation, as describe?

Justification for what exactly? How Korona at best says "doesn't seem to"? As for the latter, it would disprove that since TLOI wanted to write her story as she pleases, so she can write what characters think, since you know, going to post Boichiro's quote again:

“In this world... No, that’s not the right way to say it. In any world, free will is an illusion. You’re doing what you’re doing because you have a result that you want to achieve. But that’s because you’re thinking along the lines of a story. If you want happiness, all you need is a full stomach and a member of the opposite sex by your side. Even if they die, your sense of loss won’t last too long. There’s no need you have that someone else can’t fulfill. If they’re hungry, even the most discriminating diner will eat what’s in front of them. There’s no difference between biological satisfaction and happiness. Or at least there wouldn’t be, if it weren’t for stories. Love. Bloodlines. Success. Life paths. All values of these are religions in their own right, distinct from biological value. Stories are what make sentience possible. But they also infect it. Like a virus.”

Volume 13

So, yeah, you didn't actual move the discussion forward and considering your skipping the crucial bit of: TLOI writes whatever it wants however it wants, and since it's not contradicted, in fact, reinforced by Brave and Boichiro, I'm thinking you don't actually have anything to debunk it. So, yeah, as I mentioned before "contradictions" do not exist as they are explained by the story.

Hopefully you understand why your very premise that there some form of "contradictions" is wrong now.

---

Anyway, I hope we can move on to applying the accepted changes, please.

 

[DollaZoon60097]

As seen here, Akuto's avatars (or, more accurately, self-inserts) are the ones within the stories. Afterall, his job isn't to die and then it randomly pops to a nother world. Its to look for an optimal ending:

It is never even stated that Akuto has an avatar. do you have any evidence to back up your argument?