Updated/re-adjusting Demon King Daimaou ratings

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Hello. I think it is time to re-adjust the ratings of Demon King Daimaou characters and update the cosmology blog.

I've prepared a Sandbox that has all the relevant information for tiering the verse, and I think it should be used to update the official cosmology explanation page. Here is the sandbox:

ArgentDragonPluto/Sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the current explanation page:

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou Explanation Page

In this explanation page, our Wiki will provide a detailed breakdown for the cosmology of the anime/manga/light novel series Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou. This explanation page will focus on the 'Main Universe', where most of the story takes place, along with alternate worlds and the various levels...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The justifications are essentially the same, but deeper and more thorough, at least in my opinion. As such, this is the summary of the cosmology's and the characters rankings, taken straight out of the sandbox:

Summary
This entire blog has created a comprehensive understanding of Demon King Daimaō's cosmology, and the God-tier characters nature. To summarize the character placement within the Tiering System:

• The Computer Gods are capable of creating infinitely vast 4d universes placing them in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• Faceless Power exceeds the entirety of the Magic system and Computer Gods placing it and its users in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• Awakened Demon Kings have the power to kill The Computer Gods, placing them and those who scale in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• The Afterlife is a logical space, Akuto Sai scales to it and can create all possible logically non-contradictory worlds placing it and him in High 1-A (High Outerverse level). OtherTier1s who correspond to this Key also scale here.
• The Anti-Universe and Void Body exists beyond all Possible Worlds and any conceivable hierarchical extensions, placing it and those who scale in High 1-A+ (High Outerverse level+).
• The Law of Identity is the eternal, self-sufficient core of existence, transcending all differentiation, form, and hierarchy, dictating reality and fiction alike, including all possible logically non-contradictory worlds, placing it in High 1-A+ (High Outerverse level+).

Also, it is highly recommended to stay on topic, so please no derailment at all. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Catzlaflame @Ionliosite @Lawiegg @AKUTO123 @Duragoji123 @Larssx @Quintessence_PE @Ultima_Reality

What do you all think about this?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Doesn’t the Void Body have dimensional properties? It’s stated to exist with space but no time.



Iirc the author also uses cardinality to explain the superiority of the higher planes, so…..

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Doesn’t the Void Body have dimensional properties? It’s stated to exist with space but no time.

That doesn't prove anything. And also that's is already included in the blog btw. It's like arguing High 1-A+ being a logical space containing all possible worlds isn't High 1-A+ because you used "space" to describe it as that. "Space" in that context is just a mere descriptor but not accurate to what it fully is.

Iirc the author also uses cardinality to explain the superiority of the higher planes, so…..

That's currently being applied to Computer God VPS in a different CRT.

 

[Wankbreaker]

That doesn't prove anything. And also that's is already included in the blog btw.

I see the finite possibilities part in there (with no explanation), but not this.

It's like arguing High 1-A+ being a logical space containing all possible worlds isn't High 1-A+ because you used "space" to describe it as that. "Space" in that context is just a mere descriptor but not accurate to what it fully is.

A “logical space” is an abstract construct.

The fact that it is called a “space with no time” implies it has dimensional properties to begin with. There would be no space if it was truly a logical space,nor the need to mention it being timeless.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

I see the finite possibilities part in there (with no explanation), but not this.

The entire ritual is included in the blog, unless I was reaching copy paste limit and it's not there. Anyway, still has no effect on it's placement.

A “logical space” is an abstract construct.

The fact that it is called a “space with no time” implies it has dimensional properties to begin with. There would be no space if it was truly a logical space,nor the need to mention it being timeless.

No, it just means it's a place with no time. It's also referred to as a "place" in the next sentence. So, it doesn't imply dimensional properties whatsoever. To put it in an example, it's like trying to describe something that's indescribable. You calling that object indescribable is just describing the nature of the object itself but not necessarily the object's "indescribable" nature. Here, the Anti-Universe being referred to as a "space" isn't a full description of what it truly is—beyond stories.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

The entire ritual is included in the blog, unless I was reaching copy paste limit and it's not there. Anyway, still has no effect on it's placement.

Seems I wasn't able to copy-paste the full quote before, here is that segment (I'll add it to the blog):

“We’re doing a ritual to create an imaginary body, is that right?” Akuto asked.

“I guess so. I don’t really think I could understand the details, but it’s basically our real marriage, right?”

Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.

A space without time.

A place where physical laws ended.

Beyond causality.

Beyond reality.

The salvation of all beings.

As seen here, the Anti-universe is beyond laws, causality and reality entirely. So, no, it isn't dimensional. As I said before the Anti-Universe being referred to as a "space" isn't a full description of what it truly is—beyond stories.

 

[Wankbreaker]

No, it just means it's a place with no time. It's also referred to as a "place" in the next sentence. So, it doesn't imply dimensional properties whatsoever. To put it in an example, it's like trying to describe something that's indescribable. You calling that object indescribable is just describing the nature of the object itself but not necessarily the object's "indescribable" nature. Here, the Anti-Universe being referred to as a "space" isn't a full description of what it truly is—beyond stories.

It can be referred to as a “place”without using dimensional terms. That’s completely fine. They’re not mutually exclusive. The problem is when using spatio-temporal terms as descriptors.

Being beyond physical laws,causality and reality isn’t enough to be beyond dimensions either.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

It can be referred to as a “place”without using dimensional terms. That’s completely fine. They’re not mutually exclusive. The problem is when using spatio-temporal terms as descriptors.

Being beyond physical laws,causality and reality isn’t enough to be beyond dimensions either.

The wording "space without time" does not inherently mean it's a conventional spatial construct. There are many abstract or metaphysical places that are described using words like "space" simply because sometimes language struggles to articulate the indescribable. To give you a 2nd example (or 3rd by now?): "state of mind" is described as a "place" mentally, but that doesn't mean it has literal dimensions. So, similarly referring to the Anti-Universe as a "space" is just a descriptor, not proof of dimensionality. Also, R>F already is 1-A as argued in the blog so by virtue Anti-Universe is to a greater extent than a logical world like Afterlife. The very idea of being beyond all stories supports the idea that it exists in an completely different level rather than just a higher-dimensional one.

Anyway, I think you might start to slowly go in circles now. You're assuming that because "space" is used, it must be dimensional, but you're yet to prove that Anti-Universe functions like a normal spatial construct. What you're basically arguing right now:

"It is a space because it has dimensions, and it has dimensions because it is a space."

I tried to explain it simply and in a mellow way, yet since you want to go in circles: Your argument depends entirely on language semantics rather than actual proof. Anyway, unless you provide something new and relevant to move the discussion forward, I don't see a reason to keep repeating myself.

 

[AKUTO123]

Doesn’t the Void Body have dimensional properties? It’s stated to exist with space but no time.



Iirc the author also uses cardinality to explain the superiority of the higher planes, so…..

Cardinals are the subject of pre-afterlife. Cardinality after afterlife is more rooted in philosophy than mathematics.

 

[AKUTO123]

I agree most of blog but still want to wait what will DT say

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

I agree most of blog but still want to wait what will DT said

Yeah, he said the ratings are reasonable, but I hope he will be able to participate more. Will just have to wait.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What the debate on the Void Body is concerned, it should be noted that this is the manifestation it has in the human world. Which follows is

The entire universe shrank down.

Space folded up around Akuto and completely closed.

“Will you be taking me with you?” asked Korone as she was sucked up into Akuto.

“Zero showed that a L’Isle-Adam gains a sense of self once a personality sets in. You too have a sense of self.”

Akuto smiled and his own physical body rapidly shrank as he was taken into Keena.

Finally, Keena turned inside out and disappeared into the new land that was the anti-universe.

Space folding up and reality vanishing completely being absorbed into Keena, the physical avatar of the Law of Identity in the human world. And only then does that avatar get deleted and ascend to the anti-universe.

Which is to say, Void Body properties can't serve as anti-feats for the anti-universe to begin with, as the body as such does not exist in it. As the story says

Creating that lower body known as a void body was the first step toward becoming a being not of this world.

It is not the last step. Ascension to the anti-universe involves further steps, as we see above. One actually being the deletion of space altogether.

 

[Compsito]

Your description of the law of identity seems more like a level 0 than a High 1A+ level. Well, I'd be happy to read this anyway.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Your description of the law of identity seems more like a level 0 than a High 1A+ level. Well, I'd be happy to read this anyway.

its just fancily describing what the real actual law of identity actually is.

Also doesnt the anti universe being above all possible worlds make it an anti feat for high 1-A+ with TLOI then also being above that.
If it was just the TLOI above all possible worlds then it wouldnt be an anti feat but adding anti universe in middle seems to be.

overall neutral anyways

 

[Compsito]

its just fancily describing what the real actual law of identity actually is.

Also doesnt the anti universe being above all possible worlds make it an anti feat for high 1-A+ with TLOI then also being above that.
If it was just the TLOI above all possible worlds then it wouldnt be an anti feat but adding anti universe in middle seems to be.

overall neutral anyways

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Certainly, nothing can exist beyond all logically possible worlds, except level 0, of course. Yes, that's probably a problem.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Also doesnt the anti universe being above all possible worlds make it an anti feat for high 1-A+ with TLOI then also being above that.
If it was just the TLOI above all possible worlds then it wouldnt be an anti feat but adding anti universe in middle seems to be.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Certainly, nothing can exist beyond all logically possible worlds, except level 0, of course. Yes, that's probably a problem.

Basically, All Possible Worlds and thus The Afterlife/Akuto are being proposed as High 1-A as seen in the summary:

• The Afterlife is a logical space, Akuto Sai scales to it and can create all possible logically non-contradictory worlds placing it and him in High 1-A (High Outerverse level). OtherTier1s who correspond to this Key also scale here.

The Law of Identity is being proposed as High 1-A+, and the Anti-Universe is a High 1-A+ creation/ritual by it. So, I don't think there's any problems in that regard.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Basically, All Possible Worlds and thus The Afterlife/Akuto are being proposed as High 1-A as seen in the summary:

The Law of Identity is being proposed as High 1-A+, and the Anti-Universe is a High 1-A+ creation/ritual by it. So, I don't think there's any problems in that regard.

I can see what you're getting at ig. addresses the problems I had

 

[DontTalkDT]

It should be said that it's strictly speaking "all logically possible stories that can be described in words" that TLOI is said to transcend.

As I see it, there are two possibilities as for what this means to the existence of TLOI itself (and correspondingly the people taken into it when ascending to the anti-universe).

1. TLOI is simply beyond logic. Her being within logic would (ignoring option 2) create Russel's antimony, just with "world"/"story" instead of "set". But if she is beyond logic that is no issue. Or, to say it another way, as only logically possible worlds are included, a god beyond logic wouldn't be in them to begin with, resolving the problem. This doesn't restrict the actual scope of worlds, as High 1-A+ doesn't require all worlds to be part of an entity, only the possible ones. Logically impossible worlds need not be included to get the rating.
2. TLOI is beyond description. The key part being that the worlds included in the transcendence need to be describable. If TLOI is beyond description, then it (and the anti-universe, if one so likes) are not part of the set fo stories that can be described, which resolves the contradiction. Of course, Tier High 1-A+ would still be covered as "the framework of all possible worlds" is in fact a worded description of a story / world setting, meaning that it would be included in the scope of describable stories / worlds per default. Or, in other words, if the inclusion of non-describable worlds were a requirement, no fiction would have it, as any proof of those being included would contradict their nature as not describable. (If one takes the strictest definition of "describable")

 

[Wankbreaker]

What the debate on the Void Body is concerned, it should be noted that this is the manifestation it has in the human world. Which follows is

Space folding up and reality vanishing completely being absorbed into Keena, the physical avatar of the Law of Identity in the human world. And only then does that avatar get deleted and ascend to the anti-universe.

Which is to say, Void Body properties can't serve as anti-feats for the anti-universe to begin with, as the body as such does not exist in it. As the story says

It is not the last step. Ascension to the anti-universe involves further steps, as we see above. One actually being the deletion of space altogether.

From what I’m seeing here, the space doesn’t get deleted? Just gets folded up and transported by Keena turning herself inside out.



The raws for this (if you have them) would be nice.

 

[DontTalkDT]

From what I’m seeing here, the space doesn’t get deleted? Just gets folded up and transported by Keena turning herself inside out.



The raws for this (if you have them) would be nice.

It is completely closed, taken into Keena, who then proceeds to disappear. Specifically:

All that remained was emptiness within emptiness. That emptiness did not even contain words. In other words, a new Empty Universe had been created.

With an Empty universe being a universe without story and story being reality in the metafictional work. (Hence the mention of without words and all)
So yeah, that's pretty erased.

But as said, it overall matters very little what happens there because it doesn't happen in the anti-universe to begin with, meaning it can't be used as an anti-feat at all. You can't judge the higher level manifestation by the avatar. Working with what we know about the actual higher manifestations is the only way to go.

As for the raws: Don't have them. We have the official and fan translation to go on. So if both agree, as in this case, the translation should be correct as it is.

 

[Wankbreaker]

It is completely closed, taken into Keena, who then proceeds to disappear. Specifically:

With an Empty universe being a universe without story and story being reality in the metafictional work. (Hence the mention of without words and all)
So yeah, that's pretty erased.

But as said, it overall matters very little what happens there because it doesn't happen in the anti-universe to begin with, meaning it can't be used as an anti-feat at all. You can't judge the higher level manifestation by the avatar. Working with what we know about the actual higher manifestations is the only way to go.

As for the raws: Don't have them. We have the official and fan translation to go on. So if both agree, as in this case, the translation should be correct as it is.

I’m checking the raws (thank bookwalker and their “all you can read program” that I already signed up for to try and read the Roshidere LNs), and the Void Body isn’t the “first step” like the translation claims,but the end goal, it seems. So there is no “lower version”, the Void Body is the final step.



“Seems like it. I don’t really get the details, but… basically, it’s our “true” marriage,” Keena replied excitedly, not waiting for Akuto before initiating “it.”
A ritual where not just stories but their very bodies transcend zero and dissolve into void.
A step toward birthing a Void Entity—a body unbound by form—to become beings beyond this world.
Data as imaginary numbers.
A space without time.
A realm where physical laws cease.
Beyond causality.
Enlightenment.
Salvation for all.
Keena took Akuto’s hand.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Ah wait, I uploaded the wrong page to Imgur. I’ll fix that.

^ ignore the above, I updated it.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Ah wait, I uploaded the wrong page to Imgur. I’ll fix that.

^ ignore the above, I updated it.

The updated page doesn’t show on the preview, but does show if you actually click to go the page.

Yeah uhh idk why it’s doing that.

 

[Huesito88]

The updated page doesn’t show on the preview, but does show if you actually click to go the page.

Yeah uhh idk why it’s doing that.

That just how it is, you could change the title (or Image) and it'd take like 12 hours or something to show a new change for the preview, even if the link is fine.

 

[AKUTO123]

Space irrelevant for me void body literally end of all stories and if you know what is story in dkd answer is simple. Even say " Space " That space isn't any physical or mathematical space stories contain all physical or mathematical phenomena and it's end of everything. So saying it's a space just contradicts

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Anyway, DT is still right, and the Void Body is the first step, yeah. I don't know if it's realized yet or not, but the raws doesn't change what DT posted as they aren't even the relevant bit DT quoted. So, hopefully we can move on instead of people bringing up the wrong raws to just interrupt the discussion.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Anyway, DT is still right, and the Void Body is the first step, yeah. I don't know if it's realized yet or not, but the raws doesn't change what DT posted as they aren't even the relevant bit DT quoted. So, hopefully we can move on instead of people bringing up the wrong raws to just interrupt the discussion.

How would it be the first step if Keena says that the ritual is the first step to forming the void body in the first place?

The text is quite literally saying the opposite of what you claim

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

The Void Body is the first step because it's the first thing to be initiated. Basically, the ritual is started, which includes the start of the Void Body, then everything gets taken into it, and then after all that, the Anti-Universe is formed.

To put the extracts into order:

“We’re doing a ritual to create an imaginary body, is that right?” Akuto asked.

“I guess so. I don’t really think I could understand the details, but it’s basically our real marriage, right?”

Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.

A space without time.

A place where physical laws ended.

Beyond causality.

Beyond reality.

The salvation of all beings.

“Just like Zero, a personality can affix itself to a liradan and gain a self. You have a self too.”

Akuto smiled. His body began to shrink as well. He was absorbed into Keena too.

Eventually Keena turned inside out, and disappeared into this new world — the anti-universe. All that was left was void was within void. Void without even words. In other words, a new void universe was born.

So, I hope you now understand what I said by ", and the Void Body is the first step, yeah." (in the ritual) Hopefully I've explained it well enough this time, unless you need me to break it down more? So, DT is correct as usual. Alright then, I hope now we can move on something more productive, please.

 

[EJSenpai]

Bump

 

[RitsuØ1]

I agree with the downgrade to Tier 11 for everything being a story.

 

[Duragoji123]

I agree with the downgrade to Tier 11 for everything being a story.

This tbh

Anyways, I think the Tier 2 stuff is perfect. Nothing changes from the original reasonings almost, so I think we're all good there. I also agree with the High 1-A stuff for the Afterlife, but am currently neutral towards High 1-A+ Law of Identity/Void Body/Anti-Universe mainly just because I'm still warming up to the new system. That being said I'm not against the idea at all, so I'll let discussion be further progressed with that.

Hopefully DKD will finally get a successful thread this time around instead of it all being lost in the darkness

 

[Livinaa]

Summary
This entire blog has created a comprehensive understanding of Demon King Daimaō's cosmology, and the God-tier characters nature. To summarize the character placement within the Tiering System:

• The Computer Gods are capable of creating infinitely vast 4d universes placing them in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• Faceless Power exceeds the entirety of the Magic system and Computer Gods placing it and its users in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• Awakened Demon Kings have the power to kill The Computer Gods, placing them and those who scale in Low 2-C (Universe level+).
• The Afterlife is a logical space, Akuto Sai scales to it and can create all possible logically non-contradictory worlds placing it and him in High 1-A (High Outerverse level). OtherTier1s who correspond to this Key also scale here.
• The Anti-Universe and Void Body exists beyond all Possible Worlds and any conceivable hierarchical extensions, placing it and those who scale in High 1-A+ (High Outerverse level+).
• The Law of Identity is the eternal, self-sufficient core of existence, transcending all differentiation, form, and hierarchy, dictating reality and fiction alike, including all possible logically non-contradictory worlds, placing it in High 1-A+ (High Outerverse level+).

Wouldn't Akuto creating all possible logically non-contradictory world place him at High 1-A+ type 1?

Anti-Universe and Void Body existing beyond all possible logically non-contradictory worlds would be High 1-A+ type 2.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Wouldn't Akuto creating all possible logically non-contradictory world place him at High 1-A+ type 1?

Anti-Universe and Void Body existing beyond all possible logically non-contradictory worlds would be High 1-A+ type 2.

If I understood Type 1 and 2, then maybe? I guess it's not impossible, since DT also said this before:

It should be said that it's strictly speaking "all logically possible stories that can be described in words" that TLOI is said to transcend.

As I see it, there are two possibilities as for what this means to the existence of TLOI itself (and correspondingly the people taken into it when ascending to the anti-universe).

1. TLOI is simply beyond logic. Her being within logic would (ignoring option 2) create Russel's antimony, just with "world"/"story" instead of "set". But if she is beyond logic that is no issue. Or, to say it another way, as only logically possible worlds are included, a god beyond logic wouldn't be in them to begin with, resolving the problem. This doesn't restrict the actual scope of worlds, as High 1-A+ doesn't require all worlds to be part of an entity, only the possible ones. Logically impossible worlds need not be included to get the rating.
2. TLOI is beyond description. The key part being that the worlds included in the transcendence need to be describable. If TLOI is beyond description, then it (and the anti-universe, if one so likes) are not part of the set fo stories that can be described, which resolves the contradiction. Of course, Tier High 1-A+ would still be covered as "the framework of all possible worlds" is in fact a worded description of a story / world setting, meaning that it would be included in the scope of describable stories / worlds per default. Or, in other words, if the inclusion of non-describable worlds were a requirement, no fiction would have it, as any proof of those being included would contradict their nature as not describable. (If one takes the strictest definition of "describable")

---

In which case, I guess The Afterlife, Anti-Universe and The Law of Identity would all be High 1-A+ in a way that doesn't change their standing in the series? But I guess I'll wait for DT or others since I'm not an expert on High 1-A+ stuff.

 

[DollaZoon60097]

The Void Body is the first step because it's the first thing to be initiated. Basically, the ritual is started, which includes the start of the Void Body, then everything gets taken into it, and then after all that, the Anti-Universe is formed. To put the extracts into order: So, I hope you now understand what I said by ", and the Void Body is the first step, yeah." (in the ritual) Hopefully I've explained it well enough this time, unless you need me to break it down more? So, DT is correct as usual. Alright then, I hope now we can move on something more productive, please.

The Void Body is the first step because it's the first thing to be initiated. Basically, the ritual is started, which includes the start of the Void Body, then everything gets taken into it, and then after all that, the Anti-Universe is formed. To put the extracts into order: So, I hope you now understand what I said by ", and the Void Body is the first step, yeah." (in the ritual) Hopefully I've explained it well enough this time, unless you need me to break it down more? So, DT is correct as usual. Alright then, I hope now we can move on something more productive, please.

Doesn’t the Void Body have dimensional properties? It’s stated to exist with space but no time. Iirc the author also uses cardinality to explain the superiority of the higher planes, so…..

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Bump.

 

[Duragoji123]

Bump

 

[Duragoji123]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

What does @DontTalkDT think that we should do here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally I think it sounds ok, but I'm not the 1-A guy.