Afterlife changes for Dragon ball (Dragon ball downgrade)

[Alexander]

It wouldn’t be an argument anyway. Displacement is a scalar quantity and teleportation typically works based on displacement and not distance.

There will always be a measurable distance between any locations on spatial axes, we treat the distances between dimensions as unknowns but strictly speaking just because we treat them as unknown doesn’t mean they necessarily larger than universal distances.

Goku being able to teleport between the afterlife and Earth but not 2 locations within the universe wouldn’t debunk those two dimensions being low 2-C, it would just mean the displacement when taking into consideration the 5th dimensional axes is less than the displacement between the 2 in-universe locations.

I’m not saying that’s how IT works, but steel manning his arguments still won’t lead to the conclusions he’s drawing.

then why does not the series explain it?why do we have to assume it works like this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ki Sense range can also be inconsistent; as it has often times worked on interdimensional levels even if it doesn't quite cover the entire universe. Something can be farther away in length, but the distance is due to a more linear dimension. Kind of like something being billions of lightyears in front of me vs Being much closer to that but either above me instead of in front of me. Or in the case of using Ki sense to travel to a different dimension; it's a 4th spatial dimension that isn't quite as far as the "Billions of lightyears" example.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

IT having a limit on ki sensing doesn't debunk it being able to cross dimensions. Also please bring up these 'contradictions', because you are ignoring counter arguements by going 'muh contradictions' without elaborating, which is stone walling.

 

[Shar122]

Kaio sama was sleeping, so his power level was low (unless it is a exception for them)and yes it gets contradicted, like do you remember the origin of the kais and supreme kais being from a tree and apples?well in daima, they are born on a tree, but no apples, that is a contradiction

gets contradicted anyway

and IT still has a range limit (or in this case, Goku sensing limit)

This is false equivalence, how is "origin of the Kais" has any relation of this argument and there's no indication in the series that IT has a "range limit", Ki sensing and Instant transmission ability are separate abilities. Wdym.

 

[Alexander]

Ki Sense range can also be inconsistent; as it has often times worked on interdimensional levels even if it doesn't quite cover the entire universe. Something can be farther away in length, but the distance is due to a more linear dimension. Kind of like something being billions of lightyears in front of me vs Being much closer to that but either above me instead of in front of me. Or in the case of using Ki sense to travel to a different dimension; it's a 4th spatial dimension that isn't quite as far as the "Billions of lightyears" example.

except in this case it is consistently shown that Goku has a limit to his ki sensing, it's not something inconsistent once and for all and you let it go, it's something consistent.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

except in this case it is consistently shown that Goku has a limit to his ki sensing, it's not something inconsistent once and for all and you let it go, it's something consistent.

Goku having a limit to his ki sensing doesn't mean IT cannot cross dimensions.

 

[Alexander]

This is false equivalence, how is "origin of the Kais" has any relation of this argument

because in the guides that are we use, their origin is shown, but now it got retconned, which makes the guides unusuable (unless we are still ignoring that in favor of using them)

and there's no indication in the series that IT has a "range limit", Ki sensing and Instant transmission ability are separate abilities. Wdym.

for Goku to use IT, he needs to send ki, he can't use IT without sensing Ki, Kai kai works without sensing ki however.

 

[Alexander]

Goku having a limit to his ki sensing doesn't mean IT cannot cross dimensions.

yes it, yes it does, because IT can only work if Goku senses ki in other dimensions (which he can't, he didn't feel the ki of Goten, trunks and Buu while they were in the time chamber)

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

because in the guides that are we use, their origin is shown, but now it got retconned, which makes the guides unusuable (unless we are still ignoring that in favor of using them)

for Goku to use IT, he needs to send ki, he can't use IT without sensing Ki, Kai kai works without sensing ki however.

The concept of the Kai's creation is the same as the one we see in Daima. They were still born from trees.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

yes it, yes it does, because IT can only work if Goku senses ki in other dimensions (which he can't, he didn't feel the ki of Goten, trunks and Buu while they were in the time chamber)

The HTC has a specific trait that seals out all outside information. This isn't an valid arguement.

 

[Alexander]

The concept of the Kai's creation is the same as the one we see in Daima. They were still born from trees.

but on the demon realm, and not with apples.

 

[Alexander]

The HTC has a specific trait that seals out all outside information. This isn't an valid arguement.

...Piccolo was literally able to communicate with Goten and trunks through telepathy, so not very "sealed"again, it is just a dimension with a different time flow.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

but on the demon realm, and not with apples.

The concept is the same.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Goku being able to i.t to king Kai planet isn't a contradiction on afterlife being another space time Goku is more familiar with the location and position of king kais planet in afterlife than he is with the location of new namek that's why he was able to teleport to king Kai easily this just put limits on his ki sensing which had been inconsistent in the series

Afterlife and living universe in original toei were blatantly said to be separated by space and time followed up by gt were sugoroku space was said to be a dimension between space time's.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

...Piccolo was literally able to communicate with Goten and trunks through telepathy, so not very "sealed"again, it is just a dimension with a different time flow.

Then why are you using Goku not being able to sense them inside the HTC as an example then if we have supposed proof of people being able to sense and communicate inside the HTC? Lmao, you are cherry picking

 

[Alexander]

The concept is the same.

concept is the same, it is the same execution?no

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ki sensing and Telepathy also work on similar ranges and have many times. Goku actually used IT to leave RoSaT and appeared

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

concept is the same, it is the same execution?no

Uh, largely, yes, execution is the same. Kais were still born from trees.

 

[Alexander]

Goku being able to i.t to king Kai planet isn't a contradiction on afterlife being another space time Goku is more familiar with the location and position of king kais planet in afterlife than he is with the location of new namek that's why he was able to teleport to king Kai easily this just put limits on his ki sensing which had been inconsistent in the series

are we forgetting that IT works on sensing ki and not on "directions"?also it has been consistent that the IT requires ki sensing.

Afterlife and living universe in original toei were blatantly said to be separated by space and time followed up by gt were sugoroku space was said to be a dimension between space time's.

it was never specified what dimensions were talking about, it could just be the time chamber and the universe, not the universe and the afterlife.

 

[Alexander]

Then why are you using Goku not being able to sense them inside the HTC as an example then if we have supposed proof of people being able to sense and communicate inside the HTC? Lmao, you are cherry picking

because ki sensing and telepathic communication are not even the same thing?

 

[Alexander]

Ki sensing and Telepathy also work on similar ranges and have many times. Goku actually used IT to leave RoSaT and appeared

where?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

are we forgetting that IT works on sensing ki and not on "directions"?also it has been consistent that the IT requires ki sensing.

it was never specified what dimensions were talking about, it could just be the time chamber and the universe, not the universe and the afterlife.

This is a ridiculous arguement. The statement was used in context when Gohan was on earth and Goku was in the afterlife.

"Why would this statement not be refering to something completely irrelevant?"

 

[Alexander]

Uh, largely, yes, execution is the same. Kais were still born from trees.

no is not even the same.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

because ki sensing and telepathic communication are not even the same thing?

Can you bring up scans of where Piccolo was able to communicate to Goten and Trunks when they were in the HTC?

 

[Alexander]

This is a ridiculous arguement. The statement was used in context when Gohan was on earth and Goku was in the afterlife.

"Why would this statement not be refering to something completely irrelevant?"

because is not specific.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also for the love of pong Alex, could you stop with the constant multi posting instead of editing most recent post if you're trying to respond to multiple posts?

 

[Alexander]

Can you bring up scans of where Piccolo was able to communicate to Goten and Trunks when they were in the HTC?

here

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

no is not even the same.

Yes, it is. The guides said 'Kais were born from trees'. Daima showed the Kai's were born in trees. Any small differences between them don't affect the larger concept that the Kais came from trees.

 

[Alexander]

I try to reply to one, but then there's another one and then it's difficult for me to have to edit one to reply to another.

Yes, it is. The guides said 'Kais were born from trees'. Daima showed the Kai's were born in trees. Any small differences between them don't affect the larger concept that the Kais came from trees.

apples that come from a tree, not from the tree itself.

 

[Shar122]

for Goku to use IT, he needs to send ki, he can't use IT without sensing Ki, Kai kai works without sensing ki however.

Goku doesnt send ki, HE locks to said ki signature of other beings in order to teleport to them.
and the Instant transmission ability isn't limited, BUT THE ki sensing is, IT can take Goku any where in the universe, as long as he can lock onto being's signature.

Instant transmission isn't limited by range, it's only limited to What Goku can currently detect.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

here

Then it's as you said. Telepathy and ki sensing are two different abilities. Telepathy doesn't have the same limitations that ki sensing does, as Old Kai directly implies to Goku that the reason he cannot sense them in the HTC was because it was the HTC.

So this still isn't a contradiction.

 

[Alexander]

Goku doesnt send ki, HE locks to said ki signature of other beings in order to teleport to them.
and the Instant transmission ability isn't limited, BUT THE ki sensing is, IT can take Goku any where in the universe, as long as he can lock onto being's signature.

which again, it is limited because Goku needs to sense Ki, like it is directly stated that he needs to sense it.

Instant transmission isn't limited by range, it's only limited to What Goku can currently detect.

more like, for whatever the user can detect (Gas has it...he had the same problem)

 

[Killerdrone123]

are we forgetting that IT works on sensing ki and not on "directions"?also it has been consistent that the IT requires ki sensing.

it was never specified what dimensions were talking about, it could just be the time chamber and the universe, not the universe and the afterlife.

Yes but the real reason why Goku wasn't able to locate namek was because he didn't knew where it was located the moment king Kai told him where to look at he was able to teleport there instantly

Huh? The scan states about how Goku and gohan being separated and Goku was in afterlife while gohan was in living universe and the scan states how they are separated by space and time are you serious? Ofc it would be about afterlife and living universe

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I try to reply to one, but then there's another one and then it's difficult for me to have to edit one to reply to another.

apples that come from a tree, not from the tree itself.

"Come from a tree." is the most important part of the the concept, and besides, if they came from apples that came from the tree, they still came from the tree. You're hair splitting.

 

[Alexander]

Then it's as you said. Telepathy and ki sensing are two different abilities. Telepathy doesn't have the same limitations that ki sensing does, as Old Kai directly implies to Goku that the reason he cannot sense them in the HTC was because it was the HTC.

aha, they are two different abilities

So this still isn't a contradiction.

it is not a contradiction, but it is proof that the ki sensing is limited while the telepathy is basically interdimensional.

 

[Damage3245]

Ki Sense range can also be inconsistent; as it has often times worked on interdimensional levels even if it doesn't quite cover the entire universe. Something can be farther away in length, but the distance is due to a more linear dimension. Kind of like something being billions of lightyears in front of me vs Being much closer to that but either above me instead of in front of me. Or in the case of using Ki sense to travel to a different dimension; it's a 4th spatial dimension that isn't quite as far as the "Billions of lightyears" example.

Pretty much my thoughts on it, yeah.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

which again, it is limited because Goku needs to sense Ki, like it is directly stated that he needs to sense it.

more like, for whatever the user can detect (Gas has it...he had the same problem)

You still have yet to explain why the limit on ki sensing means IT cannot cross dimensions. You're are wating everyone's time with circular arguements and stone walling.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

The more I read Alex's arguments, the more I realize he knows that he is wrong, and he is just arguing for the sake of arguing, aka Stonewalling.
He doesn't know the Vsbw Standards and discards them, he discards accepted guidebooks without even giving evidence for why they are invalid besides "I said so", he discards every statement in the anime and manga, or tries to. He keeps repeating the same arguments without even adding proof.
Mods, he is clearly stonewalling, this is waste of time. It should be closed and a discussion rule should be implemented so this entire mockery doesn't happen again.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

aha, they are two different abilities

it is not a contradiction, but it is proof that the ki sensing is limited while the telepathy is basically interdimensional.

No, it proves HTC has a seal on ki sensing, at least from long distances. But that's a trait only the HTC has. Not the afterlife.

Ki sensing can also be interdimensional, but the HTC clearly has some sort of seal on it that hinders it. Telepathy being able to go through said seal doesn't inherently prove ki sensing is never interdimensional.

These are massive jumps in logic

 

[MrTayman616]

The more I read Alex's arguments, the more I realize he knows that he is wrong, and he is just arguing for the sake of arguing, aka Stonewalling.
He doesn't know the Vsbw Standards and discards them, he discards accepted guidebooks without even giving evidence for why they are invalid besides "I said so", he discards every statement in the anime and manga, or tries to. He keeps repeating the same arguments without even adding proof.
Mods, he is clearly stonewalling, this is waste of time. It should be closed and a discussion rule should be implemented so this entire mockery doesn't happen again.

Oh, oh, oh.

Can you tell me where are those databooks or which pages. Always wanted to check them.