Muzan vs Sukuna

[CastoriceTheFifth]

This is still borderline Stomp. Sukunas only wincon is his never landing flames but he is fan favorite so people still voted for him and this will be added. (Kinda same as Gojo vs Uber)

I’m still sus of the guy that only has 1 message since 2020 and was inactive for a year.

 

[Catbowtie]

Has to be a sock puppet account or sleeper agent.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Has to be a sock puppet account or sleeper agent.

What is sleeper agent?

 

[Catbowtie]

A sleeper agent is a spy or operative who is placed in a target country or organization, not to undertake an immediate mission, but instead to act as a potential asset on short notice if activated in the future.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Alright then, since Muzan has a 5x AP gap, poison, and a way to deal with Mahoraga I am voting him. Muzan FRA.

He can't even interact with Mahoraga what is a way to deal with Mahoraga you mean?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

He can't even interact with Mahoraga what is a way to deal with Mahoraga you mean?

They mean the infinity fortress

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They mean the infinity fortress

How is BFRing into the Infinite Fortress going to counter Mahoraga?

First of all, Sukuna's Divine Dogs should be able to identify Muzan's scent. Second, he can move around using his shadow, so I don’t see Nakime being able to constantly change his position. Lastly, as already pointed out, no one in Demon Slayer should be able to see or damage Shikigami.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

How is BFRing into the Infinite Fortress going to counter Mahoraga?

First of all, Sukuna's Divine Dogs should be able to identify Muzan's scent. Second, he can move around using his shadow, so I don’t see Nakime being able to constantly change his position. Lastly, as already pointed out, no one in Demon Slayer should be able to see or damage Shikigami.

Dude there’s 6 entire pages about how this fight would go and all pages explained how prominent Infinity fortress was to Muzan’s win con. This is just restarting a debate post grace that was already covered starting page 1.

 

[Passersby]

How? Through what resistance to curses? The source of the pain and the weakening on the body is the curse itself. The curse is made up of CURSED ENERGY, so how will regular regeneration remove a curse from your body? Can you explain it?

You're acting as if the curse were something that you can simply grab and pull out of your body. You must use Cursed Energy (or resistance to curses) to deal with it.

my g for as long as the curse works it's intended effect via doing damage to the physical body muzan can just...you know...regenerate the damage away


it staying there means nothing, muzan can survive the catastrophic damage of having your head turn to paste and regenerate his entire body mass in microseconds, the curse ain't shit lol

no one is saying he will just grab it away, we're saying whatever shenningans it will do mean nothing because will just regenerate away any damage the slow ahh curse will ever try to infilict

how did this even get to 7 pages anyways, this is bordering a stomp match lol

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

my g for as long as the curse works it's intended effect via doing damage to the physical body muzan can just...you know...regenerate the damage away


it staying there means nothing, muzan can survive the catastrophic damage of having your head turn to paste and regenerate his entire body mass in microseconds, the curse ain't shit lol

no one is saying he will just grab it away, we're saying whatever shenningans it will do mean nothing because will just regenerate away any damage the slow ahh curse will ever try to infilict

how did this even get to 7 pages anyways, this is bordering a stomp match lol

It got to 7 pages because entire win cons/arguments are being actively ignored. It’s page 7 2 days later and some people here are acting like infinity fortress was a brand new win con that was just brought up now even though it’s been there since message 4.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Dude there’s 6 entire pages about how this fight would go and all pages explained how prominent Infinity fortress was to Muzan’s win con. This is just restarting a debate post grace that was already covered starting page 1.

Just link the reply where my above concerns were addressed. All I saw were arguments about whether Mahoraga can adapt to Infinite Castle or not. I didn’t see any arguments for IC dealing with Mahoraga in any way.

It got to 7 pages because entire win cons/arguments are being actively ignored. It’s page 7 2 days later and some people here are acting like infinity fortress was a brand new win con that was just brought up now even though it’s been there since message 4.

Don't need to get worked up just link the reply that's enough. Grace is already over. I just want to see where the actual arguments were addressed.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Yeah I'm not sure why JJK supps were still trying knowing Muzan has dimensional infinity fortress and instant high-mid regen.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yeah I'm not sure why JJK supps were still trying knowing Muzan has dimensional infinity fortress and instant high-mid regen.

Don't need to get worked up just link the reply that's enough. Grace is already over. I just want to see where the actual arguments were addressed.

No one is still trying to make Sukuna win here. I already mentioned that it's already over for Grace. Also, I didn’t even bring up regeneration stuff—I was talking about IC countering Mahoraga somehow.

Anyway, if Muzan supporters just want to dodge my questions, sure. It's already over anyway. No need to be pressed about it.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Snip

Muzan can just exit the infinity fortress or just teleport Sukuna across the dimension or kick him out of it when he tries to do a malevolent shrine + divine flames combo. (Context Akaza was teleported across the dimension). The Infinity Fortress is practically Muzan's domain expansion.

Everyone here agrees Muzan gets obliterated by divine flames + domain combo. The issue is that it will never land. It takes too much time to charge that Muzan would either cook him there or just teleport him out of the fortress like lower moon 1.

Everyone agrees divine flames one shots him. It would just never land. He can deal with the shikigami as he has vast control over the dimension and can spam teleport them around or out of it while constantly shifting the dimension. Muzan can also just teleport Sukuna to him, teleport to Sukuna, or just constantly shift the dimension in his favor so Sukuna isn't able to fight long range. This is why someone here said infinity fortress would stomp Sukuna.

"Honestly if the BFR is a wincon, what just stops him from BFRing Sukuna into the infinity fortress? Even if it isnt, what stops Muzan from forcing them to fight in the infinity fortress and constantly shifting/teleporting his shikigamis across the infinity fortress? Couldn't he also just shift/teleport himself away from any danger such as his domain expansion with his control over the dimension? Honestly he could even just exit the infinity fortress or teleport sukuna out of it while Sukuna launches a divine flames that is amped with malevolent shrine."

If Sukuna tries to summon his shikigamis to jump him or teleport them back to him, nothing stops Muzan from constantly teleporting/shifting them across the infinity fortress. Honestly this just sounds like it would lead into an incon with the amount of spamming lol.

He can't see, but he can sense a swarm of curses.

Muzan resists the Fear Manipulation & Paralysis Inducement of Mahoraga, and should be able to sense Ten Shadows through his Extrasensory Perception and Enhanced Senses. Someone like Hagane Daido, a non-sorcerer, was able to sense an invisible Naoya by "seeing everything else" and Complete Heavenly Restriction Maki was able to do the same thing to fight against Naoya. Even looking at Toji, who is narratively Maki's equal, has Enhanced Senses which picks up differences in temperature and density of air. Curses' are negative emotions too. It shouldn't be out of reach for Muzan to sense the malicious intent emanating from Sukuna, Mahoraga, and the gang.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@CastoriceTheFifth saw your message and still don’t see any counterargument for these things. But anyway, grace is already over, so whatever.

First of all, Sukuna's Divine Dogs should be able to identify Muzan's scent. Second, he can move around using his shadow, so I don’t see Nakime being able to constantly change his position. Lastly, as already pointed out, no one in Demon Slayer should be able to see or damage Shikigami.

 

[Tengouk]

Because they were dealing regular attacks, which the demon's could heal from. Nichirin steel had absorbed heat from the sun, and thus as effective agaisnt them. That's literally the whole point, how do you not know this? You ask me to engage with the source material, but I still clearly know more about it than you do. Even though the sun is deadly for them, it's literally mentioned time and time again that heat is also effective agaisnt them, because if you burn through their cells, their healing will be impaired.

So does Sukuna have a nichirin blade, enhanced with sun power or the sun itself? No? So, Muzan won't die. Now go ahead and justify Sukuna having the same amount of heat absorbed into them to even kill the regular human. And no, you don't know more than me about KNY at all as you yourself admitted being rusty on the scaling. Also, ppease actually present evidence. You have the positive claim that heat is also effective against them, no that is never stated and you failed to provide evidence for such assertion. Their regeneration is hampered with the power of sunlight with fictional steel, not heat itself. You're actively going out of your way to implement headcanon into the series. RB is nichirin swords heated up, an already higher assertive steel that can cut off their lives. A mere sunlight ray shined on them can damage and kill them i.e Muzan, yet an explosion with actual fire right next to him is irrelevant for him. Fire from an explosion > Sunlight rays shining in terms of heat. It's clearly not heat that cuts off their lives, it's something else and that was never elaborated on.

Red Blade is literally just your blade heated up. Sanemi and Gyomei both got their red blades just by CLASING their weapons, generating heat from ATTRICTION, and that was already enough heat to impair Kokushibo, the uppermoon one, healing to some level. Giyu and Sanemi, during their fight, also turned their blades red from FRICTION. Once again, Red Blade is known to heavily impair and weaken a demon's regeneration through burning their cells.

Again, I couldn't care less about your headcanon. Sure, they heat up and amplifiy the effect of a nichirin sword, which again is fictional steel and has no connective scaling to Furnace's heat. That is something you have to justify.

The heat generated through SWORDS CLASHING doesn't come even near to Sukuna's thermobaric explosions, which wouldn't simply reduce Muzan to nothing, but would also burn his cells to the point where he wouldn't be able to regenerate. Once again, do not tell me to engage with something you clearly either are intentionally ignoring to try and boost Muzan, or that you didn't read.

Again, justify that claim. Sunlight absorbed fictional steel has no connective scaling to featless heat generated by Sukuna. As established earlier. Sunlight rays coming from the sun to shine on demons is much less heat than an explosion Muzan was fine standing and bathing in. The lightning Sekido summons also possesses heat, much more than sunlight rays, that it chars the ground and Nezuko was visibly fine. Ain't about heat, it's about a special constitution of fictional demons. If you don't actually provide evidence now, then don't even bother to reply again.

Rengoku never produced real heat. Gotouge already said this, all his fire is simply visual effects.

DotA and no, that ain't true. He visibly exerts heat in the anime, which is secondary canon. The same movies content was implemented into the databook, so there's no argument here at all.

I do agree that Nichirin steel is important here, but it's not really a must have. Muzan has never shown to be able to regenerate from having his whole body destroyed, and Muzan's Furnace is way stronger than anything Muzan has ever withstood.

Again, justify that a featless attack speed Furnace will hit Muzan at point blank range, otherwise Inverse Square Law takes a play in this and Muzan survives this casually. Also, the explosion Muzan was under is very comparable to Sukuna's Furnace in size, though a bit of difference in power i.e Town Vs Large Town, but Inverse Square Law takes a play in here.

You have no evidence to claim that he would be able to survive a High 7-C attack that would reduce him to nothing.

Again please justify with empircal evidence that when Sukuna uses Furnace he'll be able to hit Muzan with 100% of it's AP. Like mentioned 50x times by now, inverse square law.

Muzan doesn't have invulnerability, he simply is way stronger than any regular human (who, once again, fights with SWORDS) in his verse. Him getting hit by a cursed attack (Sukuna's STRONGEST attack,

"Regular humans" in KNY have higher assertive scaling than Choso via your own logic of pages. Same MCB Choso survived Furnace temporarily from a distance. Muzan is bathing and chilling in that attack from a distance.

who would have the biggest amount ot CE out of all his moves, so it would generate the strongest curse on Muzan), that is way stronger than ANYTHING he has ever endured, would yes be enough to get rid of him. The other Muzan supporters already accepted this, and literally anyone who looks through their pages and sees Muzan's durability would also agree to this. Muzan's high-mid regeneration wouldn't allow him to come back from nothing.

Again, that begs the question. Sukuna ain't no curse, therefore he has no 'curse effect'. I also couldn't care less about what other Muzan supporters say, I don't know why you keep thinking they're an authority relevant of a subject.

Who claimed Sukuna was a cursed spirit? Once again, you didn't even read my previous arguments (or are blatantly ignoring them). Refer to my past posts, I already explained that shikigamis and cursed spirits work in the same way, so yes, they DO have that effect.

Association Fallacy. Sukuna and Cursed Spirits don't work the same and aren't identical. That is verbatim elaborated in Maho Vs Sukuna. It's your burden to prove he has that effect even though he has never showcased such ability.

And once again, like you posted here, Cursed Energy Manipulation's page explains, the manga itself explains, and even simply watching the anime would also explain this to you, but the CURSE EFFECT comes from being affected BY A CURSED ATTACK. Curses are MADE UP from CURSED ENERGY, so a strike from them, is a strike made up of CURSED ENERGY. All of Sukuna's sorcery is made up of Cursed Energy, and WOULD result in the same effect.

They get attacked by a cursed spirit, whom is 100% made out of CE and are therefore cursed. Sukuna is no cursed spirit and thus his attacks effect don't backscale nor have the same effect as cursed spirits. G2 Curse has shown higher curse effect than Sukuna has ever shown by sheer presence. As it stands for now, association fallacy.

You're, once again, deliberately lying about how Jujutsu Kaisen's in-universe power system works, without showing any proof of what you claim.

I'm on the negation, what are you talking about? I don't need to prove anything as of now. You were the one asserting curse affect and the likes to begin with.

I already covered this in previous posts, but, once again: Sukuna's finger was only a cursed object, because it was an objected that contained Sukuna's SOUL and CURSED ENERGY. HIS cursed energy was so big that Megumi himself said (when Itadori ate Sukuna's finger) that letting such a strong cursed energy inside of you was like akin to ingesting a lethal poison. He literally said that the chance of survival of anyone after consuming one single finger from Sukuna was impossible (the one in a million is a japanese form of speech that was badly translated. It was said whenever refering to something that was impossible).

"Impossible" in the world of fodders (Megumi got damaged by Building tier G2 Curse) And no, Cursed Objects have different properties than Cursed Spirits/Sukuna, to apply that to a fully fleshed curse/Sukuna is baseless and a hasty generalizaton.

So YES, once again, both Sukuna's and his shikigamis attacks, via the attacks being MADE UP OF CURSED ENERGY, do apply curses. The first thing Itadori learnt with Yaga was to control himself as to not curse a loved one by accident...

Already addressed this.

The average JJK human, just like Muzan, has no resistance to curses. Why are you trying to apply biology agaisnt magic? What magic did Muzan face in Kimetsu no Yaiba for you to claim that he, who has NEVER resisted a curse, wouldn't be affected in the same way another person with no resistance to curses would?

Muzan's page/manga and his resistance to higher assertive diseases and demons not getting sick, duh.

You are, on purpose, ignoring my point. Once again, no problem, your other Sukuna supporters, and anyone who sees the difference betwen Sukuna's HIGH 7-C with Furnace, and Muzan's NECK 7-C durability knows what happens.

Are you blind? Genuinely asking. Do you know what Inverse Square Law is? Do I need to write it out for you? I'm talking to a JJK fan no wonder after all, they can't read.

And once again, curses are only applied to those who cannot use CURSED ENERGY. Cursed Energy protects your body from cursed attacks, that's why sorcerers do not get the regular effects of a curse. It's literally explained in the start of the manga, and I alredy provided scams before this. Sad to see you resort to this instead of really tried to make a valid point.

Yea, don't care. Muzan has higher assertive resistance to disease and can't get sick via emperical evidence. Please present evidence of this curse effect affecting someone stronger than a featless kid and Maki, whom both got neg diffed by a building tier curse.

It will. You didn't counter any of my points of how Sukuna would do that. I won't repeat myself, you can go back and read it, and then try arguing agaisnt them instead of engaging in useless arguments. Choso didn't survive agaisnt Furnace, he literally sacrificed his own life to protect Itadori.

I never said Choso survived Furnace in of itself. I said he survived from a distance (he did) for an unknown period of time and had to get closer to Yuji and thus the heat.

Everyone KNEW that if they weren't teleported away by Todo, or if Choso didn't SACRIFICE HIS LIFE to protect Itadori, all of them would have been killed by Furnace. Also, Furnace's power scales directly to the amount of explosive material generated by Malevolent's Shrine duration, so Sukuna can always charge it even more if he wanted more destructive power.

Now justify and quantify how much of the AP is gonna affect Muzan and if Furnace is even gonna tag Muzan directly. Unprovable. MCB survived a distance away.

No, I do not need to do that once agan. Speed is equalized, and if you want to read everything I already argumented with the others here, just go back and read what I said before. I won't repeat myself once again just for you to ignore it.

Speed equalization doesn't make it so that their attack speed is equal to an opponent's reaction or combat speed. Please actually read the VS thread rules. Here I quote;

"Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight, etc."

Sukuna's furnace attack speed is not suddenly relative to Muzan's combat speed. Only the multiplier makes their respective speed equal.

Luckily for me the same pages states;

• Speed Amplification techniques are assumed to grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.

Muzan uses thigh whips/gains power and blitzes Sukuna, since he can blitz those relative to him. Sukuna loses here.

Nichirin steel is literally just steel that absorbed sunlight for a long amount of years. You're acting like Nichirin steel is permanently heated up and untouchable to anything, and that it sits at the same level of the heat of the sun, which is not true. Human characters literally continuously fight with their swords, and we have already seen them touching their blades with no burn marks whatsoever.

Upscales KNY slayers resistance to heat. Justify a connective scaling to Furnace with that. I never said that either, lots of words put into my mouth. Also, even if that was the case, these humans have now gained higher heat resistance via scaling to sun power and thereby are above Sukuna's heat. Those slayers are fictional characters, with no anti-feats.

Yes, I can. Yoriichi's blade is never stated to be heated in any special way when compared to the others slayers'. To the contrary, since it's confirmed there's no super powers in KnY, it's all just technique. Yoriichi is the most skilled human in the verse, that's all.

No super powers is blatantly wrong according to inverse rules and the VSBW pages and him being the most skilled doesn't equate to now regen negging the strongest demon. His RB is on a whole nother level, Sukuna doesn't probably scale to that. You're presupposing a connective scaling, not me, so prove it.

Sukuna's Furnace is literally stronger than anything KnY verse has ever seen. HIGH 7-C agaisnt Muzan's 7-C NECK.

Inverse....Square....Law

How do YOU claim that Muzan, who has High-Mid regeneration, would be able to come back from something that would instantly obliterate him? Fire Arrow has an way too big AP advantage here. Muzan has NO WAY to survive it.

Again, why does it obliterate him? Sukuna has no nichirin powered sword and no sun so Muzan survives, according to your logic.

Why don't you display this knowledge here? Show me the pages where it's explained that Nichirin's mere sun-bathed steel is anything more than that. You're acting like the sun properties on it are magical and not purey HEAT.

I ain't need to, ain't my burden. You're pressuposing and making the positive that heat is the thing that kills demons which is not true as I've explained above. Rays shining on demons is inherently less heat than someone chilling next to a giant explosion. Fictional material and fictional sun is the thing that kills them. Clearly magical events that kill supernatural beings.

Toji do not see curses due to having HR, it's LITERALLY explained that he SENSES THEM through the world itself. He perceives them by the alterations on the atmosphere and air density. When cursed spirits moved, even though non-cursed effects cannot interact with them, they themselves can interact with the world. THAT'S how she perceives them. She doesn't see, she feels it.

Ain't what Maki is saying here. This is her pre-cognition abilities.

Let me educate a JJK reader right here, despite me not reading JJK fully at all.

Context; Maki has gained a body like every sorcerer via Mai's death, capable of perceiving cursed and even talking to them. Now indicating that she can indeed see and interact with them, while she was previously unable to without glasses.

"I gained this body thanks to Mai...and now I can see curses enough to be like eveyone else".

Now, she moves further into it a panel later.

"I was satisfied to be like everyone else"

A page later after consistenly losing to Naoya's speed;

"It's not enough to be like everyone else".

Now, via deductive reasoning we can conclude that thanks to Mai she can now truly see curses and she's equal to Toji. However Toji, had more. He had pre-cognition abilities, and was still different.

1. Maki gained the ability to see curses with her senses, making her like everyone else (Sorcerers)
2. Maki isn't satisfied to be like everyone else, she wants to grasp more.
C; Maki and Toji can see curses through enhanced physicals and can see much more than sorcerers such as air density, i.e making them not like everyone else.

She absolutely does see curses and the fact that I have to explain this despite the pages and context being right next to each other.

Daido, the swordsman, explains that his "perception of curses" works in the same way. Although he cannot see them, by perceiving the world itself through his heightened senses, he can feel and detect them.

Daido ain't Maki nor Toji. Maki was shocked at Daido not seeing Naoya, obviously hinting towards her seeing Naoya with her sight. This is also before her pre-cog and air density grasp. You cannot equate the stated outlier with Maki.

And no, Kokushibo and Douma sensing Akaza's presence disappear do not equal to him SEEING curses, being made up of cursed energy, something he cannot perceive.

Heightened senses equate to seeing curses. Daido and Maki's/Toji's narrative elaborate on this.

Tengen could feel the entire cave due to his particular super-enhanced sense of hearing, he didn't "see things that were invisible".

It was invisible to the naked eye, that is being dishonest. If he can sense an entire underground cave, he'll be able to sense curses, whom are also invisible to the naked eye.

Nor does Akaza's page show anything like that. See-Through World doesn't make you perceive what is invisible, that's false. It only let's you perceive the inside of that which you can already see.

Who stated anything about STW? And no, you cannot see inside humans unless you use machinery. That is blatantly false. By the way, Kenjaku gives glasses to presidents to let them see curses, machinery is much more complex than that and only they can see inside humans and see small things inside our body invisible to the eye. Like, what? Do you have STW in real-life? Can you physically perceive my heart by concentrating hard enough, lol?

Muzan can sense the curses through their killing intent, that was already agreed on way before this, but no, he cannot see them. None of that is on their pages, and I read the manga, they never did see anything invisible.

Clearly named examples. Please check up on the definition of invisible to the naked eye.

"I don't care what the narrator states as multiple arms i sthe reason Kashimo struggled so much", Kashimo struggled because when Sukuna got his perfect body, he was pratically instantly chanting and doing his hand signs, without any of the downsides. We literally see him die to Sukuna's slashes, not his punches.

Kashimo actively outperformed Megukuna in CQC but got consistently done in by his numerous limbs. Dying is not the same as having upper-hand against sorcerers via multiple arms and mouths.

But yeah, thanks, you've already shown that you do not care about what the manga shows, you only care about your personal view, even when it's proven you're wrong.

No, I just didn't care about your interpretation that you try to force upon me despite how it can coexist with mine. The narrator merely backs me up, the feats stand for itself.

The others here are way more reasonable and, at least, want to discuss what happens in both mangas. No use trying to talk to you if you wanna base yours arguments on your headcanons.

The only one who has enganged with headcanons spouting is you to be honest.

When did I state that demons died to REGULAR head-crushing? You talk ill of me for saying you're lying, and here you are lying once again. You ignore all of my points, lies, and then tries going in circles. Probably trying to stall, I guess.

You very clearly tried to point it towards standard head crushing being a viable option for Sukuna, whom does not have nichirin blades. This is not a lie told, unlike the ones you told me.

And why is the Cursed Object lethal? Because it has Sukuna's cursed energy all over it. Do not act dense. It was not a mistranslation, I already explained the "mistranslation" myself. The title of Lethal Poisons and Toxins refers to curses. Sukuna is the king of curses, and his curse is the most lethal. Remember, curses are akin to poisons for humans, that's why he, the king of curses, IS the king of poisons.

CO being lethal doesn't now equate to Sukuna himself being lethal as he changes form and is not a cursed spirit anymore. Again, that is not true. Everytime in the manga he's always refered to as king of curses, never king of lethal poisons and toxins, only in the sibling fight does it state such, which I mentioned is a mistranslation. Tumblr blog "Nanami mistranslation incident" supports me on this. He doesn't have that title, ever.

He was immune to Kechizu and Eso's poison. He is immune and his page here agrees with that, so I won't go back to this, we already went through this. If you want that changed, go and try getting it changed.

Yuji was resistant to Kechizu and Eso's poison. Yuji is not Sukuna, Sukuna is not Yuji. Don't need to change a page to address a popular misconception, get this through your head.

I already did, you're simply ignoring it just like you did with everything else.

You failed to provide the numerous scans, hitchen's razor.

"Featless curse effect", and I have repeatedly shown the effect in action.

Still no connective scaling.

Both agaisnt people with minor resistance to curses and with people with no resistance to curses.

Featless characters. Ubayashiki survives this curse btw.

You're simply ignoring it, and as I said, I won't force you to answer my arguments. If you wanna go in circles like you're doing right now, keep going. I already explained with his bio-hax would be useless unless he did a insta kill on Sukuna and how Sukuna would survive that, you still didn't counter argument any of that.

Sukuna has no resistance to Muzan's poison unless you prove connective scaling. Scaling to featless poison is not gonna get Sukuna anywhere.

He cannot interact with shikigamis, so no, he cannot. And even if he tried, all he would get himself is a worse curse, since he would be bringing a whole being that not only is covered in Sukuna's CE, but also is made of cursed energy inside his body, and we already saw what the manga says about that (refer to my scans and explanations about Sukuna's finger).

Begging the question and repetition all over again. I'll dismiss this again. Heightened senses grant perception of curses. Most hashira have heightened senses on that level via higher assertive scaling and Sukuna's 'curse effect' is not applicable to his fully fleshed state, as just because Sukuna uses CE doesn't mean he's as poisonous or can be associated to him. A G2, something less powerful than Sukuna himself turned tough rugby player sick in just a few moments based on wordings by sheer presence. Sukuna never had that effect on weaker kids. You cannot justify that at all. A G2 having more 'curse effect" than the king of non existent lethal poison and toxins is kind of funny.

No, there's no double standards. You, once again, are lying. I, from the beginning, agreed that Muzan will be able to sense the curses, because that's what he will be able to do. Maki does NOT see curses, she feels and perceives them by changes in the atmosphere and air density. She just feels and reacts to it. So that's all Muzan would do. He would not see it. And what is your point here?

I just addressed this, no point in repetition.

Are you now claiming curses/shikigamis can be hurt without cursed energy? I already sent dozens of times Megumi explaining that the only way to damage a curse is through Cursed Energy, but alright.

Yes, I am. Reasoning that they can't is a NLF. If you provided evidence that Sukuna's furnace is as dangerous as like how the sun or nichirin sword is dangerous to demons, I would agree with Sukuna's furnace killing Muzan. Both respective verses state that the only way to kill them is through CE or sun/nichirin sword, something strong enough to kill both of them than what they ever displayed of surviving would be enough to end this vs matchup. It ain't matter if there's a special condition applied.

Muzan is not invulnerable to anything other than nichirin steel, that is never stated.

It very clearly is stated. Muzan was stated by Ubayashiki in ch139 to be impossible to be killed by anthing else other than sunlight, same Ubuyashiki whose statements have valid thruth value due to perceiving the future. Consistent narrative states that only nichirin and sun truly kills them. That is stated numerous times by valid sources (even Chapter 8, table of contents state such).

He simply is stronger than regular steel and has an ridiculous amount of regeneration, which makes it hard to kill him. We literally see Ubuyashiki's bombs being able to heavily damage Muzan.

Ain't killing him, damaging =/= killing. Muzan doesn't get killed by that attack.

The thing is, HE HEALED. But we saw that it could damage him.

Explosion infused with spikes, occam's razor would dictate Ubuyashiki utilizes nichirn spikes, which weaken their regeneration, nice try tho.

Slayers are humans with super human stats fighting with nothing but swordsmanship, that's why they have such a hard time agaisnt Muzan. But not only Sukuna has way more firepower than anything in the KnY universe, he also can also incinerate Muzan's cells through the thermobaric explosions, which was mentioned IN MANGA that burning a demon's cells is effective agaisnt them (Muzan's regeneration wasn't instant after he was exploded by Ubuyashiki, it clearly was somewhat slowed.

Begging the question here again. Justify the mention of burning cells through convential methods is effective against them, not special material. Also, those superhuman humans scale above most of JJK's cast via VSBW pages and that same cast can put the hands on Sukuna consistently, lol.

Normally he just regenerates instantly, but there, the burns clearly made him slower at healing). Will you show any proof or valid arguments, or will you keep going in circles?

Hasty generalization. Claiming the burns were what made him heal slower requires proof.

No, it doesn't say "all phenomena in the JJK verse", it says all phenomena. His page here also states that Mahoraga's adaptation works agaisnt anything. It does not say "adaptation (to cursed techniques)". Once again, we will be using what the pages claim the characters have, so unless you get Mahoraga's adaptation changed, that wincon won't change. You want me to justify? Alright. Non cursed energy attacks cannot kill a being made of cursed energy, as the manga stated time and time again. You could simply have gone and read Jujutsu Kaisen's verse page on here and have learnt that yourself, but whatever, I guess.

All phenomena in relation to CT's and JJK universe. None of JJK's characters have knowledge on other verses and as such their "all" refers to the verse's limitiations and grasp. The Mahoraga page refers to the context surrounding the verse, not any other verse, thhey don't have the grasp nor scaling to Muzan's poison that breaks down cells. NLF goes crazy with this one. You simply misinterpret the pages meaning.

Also, Muzan didn't vaporize any of the slayers who could somewhat control their bloodflow through their breathing, so no, he would not vaporize Sukuna "in seconds" when he has never shown to be able to do that.

Upscales the slayers' resistance, ain't no issue here.

Sukuna would simply stop his bloodflow, destroy Muzan's blood from inside his body and generate more blood through RCT.

Good luck proving he'll do that before he gets vaporized before he even utters a word. No poison resistance on that level = he's dead in a second.

Muzan has never instantly killed any slayer who had a little bit of bloodflow control, so he won't be able to instantly kill Sukuna and you know that. No proof = not happening.

That ain't Prime Muzan, thereby no anti-feats. Slayers can have greater resistance than Sukuna and you would have to justify connective scaling to get Sukuna above them, lol.

How can you claim it's bigger? Domains are said to be impossible to escape from inside.

Sub-Mach 3 slayers That is blatantly wrong too as Megumi would've escaped Dagon's domain and like I said IC has been refered to as impossible to escape without Nakime and Muzan as well via Nakime's databook pages, which is actually true and not contradicted. No one ever escaped without those two interacting with the dimension.

Also, while responding to later text I saw this page which directly debunks your claim of it being impossible to escape. Rarely =\= impossible and absolutely ain't a matter of size unlike IC.

Even if you walk, walk and walk even more, you won't be able to reach where the barrier is.

Unprovable, if you refer to the mansion curse, he just stacks the distance but it's not bigger in size perse. Same can be applied to domains.

Unless you have actual calculations to claim IC is bigger than Satoru Gojo's Unlimited Void, your point doesn't matter.

Your burden actually and I already mentioned the IC stabilization calculation, which was calculated hundreds of meters (UV has no size calculations)

Also, Mahoraga was simply deactivating the ability, and thus he destroyed it. He can do the exact same to IC. It's size doesn't matter, Mahoraga will simply deactivate it.

The doman's size absolutely does matter. DC on that level was never shown and nope, he destroyed it by breaking it, not deactivating it.

Domains do not break "when a portion of the space is broken", that has never happened. When Itadori broke a huge chunk of Mahito's domain and invaded it, the domain wasn't broken, it was still active and it's Sure Hit technique was still up and going. Mahito's domain only broke when Itadori entered the domain, was affected by the Sure Hit, and Sukuna hit directly into Mahito's soul (another win con I didn't bother bringing up yet, but Sukuna can also damage Muzan's soul and kill him through that, as we saw him cause real damage to Mahito).

Yuji threw Sukuna through the barrier and it collapsed, Kurourushi broke the domain. Mahito instantly got targeted by Sukuna and thus we didn't see direct evidence of it breaking through invasion unlike with the two examples I gave. Also justify Sukuna hit Mahito's soul, let alone him do that in-character against Muzan + justify an equation between JJK souls and KNY souls.

And if you're thinking about claiming that "the barrier size is the actual domain's size", please, don't even try that. Gojo's baseball domain is proof enough that the barrier's size is not reflexive of the domain's interior. Dagon's Domain had a whole ocean inside of it that went as far as the eye could see, and it still was enclosed inside that small barrier.

Domains are illusionary, just like the mansion curse from the backstory.

I already did. After adaptating to UV's EFFECT, he was able to instantly deactivate UV and break down that Pocket Reality. Once he is affected and adaptates to IC ability, he would be able to do the same. Both are an Pocket Reality with it's own special effects. We already saw Mahoraga being able to break one down by simply adaptating to it, so YOU have to prove that it won't work. Saying "it won't!" isn't proof. I already provided evidence that he can.

False equivelence and NLF again. Both being pocket dkmensions doesn't now mean he breaks every single one. I don't have to justify a negative claim anyway, you were the one who made the positive claim surrounding the possibility of Maho being capable to do this without evidence of such. You provided evidence that IC and domains are pocket dimensions, not the DC feats nor that he can even target IC to break it down (???) Your entire positive claim revolves around equating to similar but not equal things, it's your positive to jusitfy an equation other than a name/title fallacy.

Each Demon has their own BDA. If Muzan could use Douma's BDA, he would have used.

Ain't matter if he can't use Douma's domain.

He is only able to use Nakime's ability through her, that's why when she died, he wasn't able to use IC anymore.

Prove he couldn't use it anymore and no he's not limited to Nakime's use. He summoned the slayers into the IC on his own.

BDA is not purely manipulating your blood, it's a demon special technique, and the fact you're "arguing" here instead of sending a page in the manga where Muzan uses Douma BDA, is enough proof that is impossible

It is about blood manipulation, all BDA's are consistent of blood. That is why when growing stronger via blood density they can unlock special techniques. Literally the reason why demons scale to their techniques via a recent CRT. What is your actual problem? Who talked about Muzan using Douma's BDA? JJK fans can't read omg.

not only did read their pages, I already said I already read the manga.

Go ahead and read Muzan's pages again. In fact type in "flesh" on the exact page and search around to find what I've been saying that he can do. I can see it clearly. My point was never about Muzan using Douma's ice clones. It was about having more sophisticated use of his own blood and can thereby make his clones equal to himself, greater than Douma's ice clones being approximately equal to himself.

Every time I don't remember something, I'm simply looking for a specific fight and reading it again. That, or I ask here for assistance. I never mentioned or used anything I don't know about KnY as an argument, different from you. Good try, tho.

Very evidently so; you didn't

If you aren't reading my previous point, read them. I won't repeat myself unnecessarily, and I already have disproven everything you said here. You literally are simply lying once again. Gojo was the one to force Sukuna into CQC, and Sukuna had no other choice but to also engage in it, since the only way he could get through Infinity (AT FIRST) was through Domain Amplification. Read my past posts to understand why you're wrong. If you won't whatever, but I already explained all of that.

Headcanon, unproven claims ain't disproving anything. Also, Sukuna enganged into CQC without Gojo atttacking numerous times. Reasons to disprove you; he enganges in CQC with Gojo, making the stance of closing the distance first at the very start of the battle. Ch224 also shows him using dismantle and while Gojo looks away, he closes the distance in CQC. In the domain, after Gojo is turned into a waffle in Ch226 Gojo runs and Sukuna enganges in CQC to stop him. In Ch227 Sukuna intercepts Gojo's domain by enganging into CQC. He came out the shadow to engange in CQC and he never once made the effort to keep distance previously.

Again, I ain't reading your latest posts. You posted like 50 entire books to defend that fraud.

So yeah, not only did you prove you do not care about what really is in the manga (you literally said you do not care about what the narrator said, because only what you think matters),

Context matters...

you also admitted to not reading what I was saying. The only reason I answered this is because other people ARE reading and they are understanding my points. Keep ignoring, there are other people here up for discussing. I'll also be ignoring your posts from now on, since you claimed you would do that to mine.

I admitted to not reading what you had to say in 50 other replies before I even texted. You replied to me twice, that's all. Also, good, you can do that. I'll be doing that now too. Especally since you don't actually really present connective scaling. Merely responding in case someone reads this to change their mind.

 

[Tengouk]

Since I'm sure Muzan won and the votes closed, I see no point in discussing anymore.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

@CastoriceTheFifth saw your message and still don’t see any counterargument for these things. But anyway, grace is already over, so whatever.

Sadly that's how it went. The majority simply ignored any of ghe arguments we made, never answered any of them and simply called it a day. The majority of who voted before didn't even follow up on the discussion, and even after we pointed out that Sukuna can avoid X and Y, they still ignored it and simply went away. Well, atleast we both know that our points still stands.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Yeah I'm not sure why JJK supps were still trying knowing Muzan has dimensional infinity fortress and instant high-mid regen.

Mahoraga is already proven to be able to adapt and nullify dhe infinite fortress. No one has proved he can't, just a bunch of people asking "he can only do that to cursed techniques" even though they haven't shown any evidence of that (the fact that he only adapted to techniques in the manga is not valid, since he was intentionally used in only three fights were they specifically wanted to nullify the opponents techniques. The only threat in JJK are cursed techniques, so of course the being whose power is to adapt to all and any phenomena, would focus on adaptation to Cursed Techniques.

Muzan high mid regeneration won't save him from getting immobilized by Curses and one shot by Furnace. That's our whole point. Muzan cannot reach Sukuna when hes in the shadows, and he cannot do anything to Mahoraga and the other shikigamis. Since Muzan has no resistance to curses, he has no way of resisting them, and would soon either succumb to the curse or get immobilized and die one shotted to Furnace.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

my g for as long as the curse works it's intended effect via doing damage to the physical body muzan can just...you know...regenerate the damage away


it staying there means nothing, muzan can survive the catastrophic damage of having your head turn to paste and regenerate his entire body mass in microseconds, the curse ain't shit lol

no one is saying he will just grab it away, we're saying whatever shenningans it will do mean nothing because will just regenerate away any damage the slow ahh curse will ever try to infilict

how did this even get to 7 pages anyways, this is bordering a stomp match lol

The curse doesn't deal damage. It causes you to feel pain and get severely weakened. What exactly will Muzan heal from? The curse is the source of him losing his strength. Neither of those can be removed by healing, you can only get rid of them by purification (all victims of curse needs help from a sorcerer).

It's already done, but the reason why it took so long is simple: as people admitted, they intentionally weren't reading what we were saying ad simply ignored all of our points. And since people who voted vanished from the match and didn't follow it up, it ended like this. The fact I'm needing to explain foe the 5 or 6th time how curses works is more proof of this.

 

[Passersby]

The curse doesn't deal damage. It causes you to feel pain and get severely weakened.

makes you severely weakened how?
in what form and why can't he just make an entire new body and be done with it

 

[MonarchInYellow]

makes you severely weakened how?
in what form and why can't he just make an entire new body and be done with it

Maki, after getting scratched, was unable to move. Both kids there, who were also cursed and said to "die soon" if Yuta didn't help her, also couldn't move by themselves (with one of the boys being unconscious).

Both of Yuji friends com the occult club were unable to move, and eventually were unconscious as the curses tried to eat them.

It's clearly shown that curses weaken you before killing you off. That's what I meant by saying that if Muzan gets hit and becomes cursed, Sukuna WOULD be able to use his domain and finish him off with his Furnace. Mahoraga is simply a guarantee Sukuna has to remove any cards Muzan may have, but Sukuna can win by simply cursing Muzan, nerfing him and making it hard for him to move, and then blast him with Furnace.

Muzan could make a new body, and that probably could help, but how would he avoid getting cursed again? There's a bunch of Evil creatures he will be sensing around him constantly mauling at him. It's impossible to avoid getting hit, even more when you consider they all have special powers that will apply curses (Agito's thunder, the Elephant's water manipulation, etc.).

 

[Passersby]

Maki, after getting scratched, was unable to move. Both kids there, who were also cursed and said to "die soon" if Yuta didn't help her, also couldn't move by themselves (with one of the boys being unconscious).

you're not answering the question, "the curse weakens them" is an undefined phenomena that can be applied using any form of mechanism, be it damage, esoteric shennanigans, reality warping or any other bullshit power.

they were unable to move because the curse "Weakened them" how?
there were gonna die soon because the curse was going to kill them how?
as far as i know the curse was never expanded upon and the most realistic way it works is via dealing damage to your physical body rather than some esoteric bullshit we pull out of nowhere
and hence the curse can be regenerated from, that easy.

and muzan can win by grazing sukuna once, that's about it, all the other bullshit is a non factor unless you think muzan grazing sukuna once can't happen, and yes he can make an entire new body before sukuna can blink unless regen speed is also equalized

 

[Catbowtie]

Y'all are going in circles. Match's concluded. This can be closed.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Can the thread be closed before matchups are added and or request to be closed without the tread creator? I'm still new so not sure.

 

[Catbowtie]

The Thread can be closed before match-ups are added. Usually, the Thread Creator asks for it to be closed, but someone else can request for it to be closed too. It's just that seeing Monarch repeat the same points over and over again is getting tiresome.

 

[Reiner04]

Closing.