Naruto revision: The size of Kaguya's dimensions

[Kidkinsey]

Idk about the energy per second argument for ap values so I'll leave that alone but as for the sizes

We know the Otsutsuki realms aren't just planetary in size because momo was literally blown off of his planet by the boruto rasengan. When sasuke was in the sand dimension he was sweating because of the sun there and imo it's a stretch to say that sun was in another dimension, the moon dimension has a moon and other small stars etc, it's just safe to assume they're all in the same time space

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You do realize a planet is also comprised of its atmosphere. The moon is around 3000 km wide. The atmosphere is 10000 km tall. It could easily fit.

That is assuming the moon they created just stay in place when we know that clearly is not what happened when Hagoromo created the moon.

I understand what you're saying but no. Assuming the velocity changes is a big assumption in itself. Then saying that it could even get faster might honestly be contradicted, since the longer it goes, the less chakra there is to fuel it, and the slower it'll be in contrast. If anything it'd grow even slower

That is assuming the flux of chakra is constantly the same or that Kaguya's chakra limit is not great enough to destroy the entire place.
Kaguya could just be increasing the flux of chakra by starting small and increasing over time to increase its expansion speed. Anyways this is still assuming that screen time=real time which is not a valid assumption as far as I know on this wiki.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The scene doesn't show it expanding the size of 3 earths by every passing second

What? That's basic cinematic time stuff. It also doesn't show characters moving faster than sound in 99% of scenes of 99% of fictional stories but we're not going to downgrade everyone to subsonic.

Our only real point of reference is FTL+ characters so unless you have actual solid evidence that a significant amount of time had passed I don't see any contradictions with the timeframe.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I feel like people are misconstruing the crux of KT's argument. And maybe his FoddHoeAss didn't do the best job explaining it, so here's my interpretation of it.

The point isn't "orb space = planet because planet is orb shaped". Obviously, an isolated dimension can both be solar system-ish sized and also have an orb-like border, as many of you pointed out.

The actual point is that these dimensions are always characterized by the planets and nothing else.

The spaces that can be transported to are spaces of lava, ice, extreme gravity, sand, and acid; these orb like spaces are directly connected to the root space

Like, to me personally, "orb-like space of lava/ice/acid/sand/etc." is clearly referring to the planets here. In the context of Kaguya's worlds/dimensions, they are very much characterized by these planets. So the point isn't so much that it can't be solar system sized while also being orb shaped; rather the point is why are we even assuming it's more than the planets when the descriptions of said worlds never really attributed anything more than the elemental planets?

So, with that being said, I actually agree with this thread for now. I agree with the second point also.

 

[Reiner04]

Agree with the OP.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

It said "a space of lava. Orb like space." are you gonna try to tell me the "orb like space of lava" is really just 7e-12% of the actual dimension.

The entire debunk is saying that the "space" is a space of lava, ice, sand, etc. That is the entire realm.
You're trying to say "well the dimension is actually 13 trillion times larger than the "space of lava" that the dimension is stated to be".

Excluding the fact that you can very clearly see otherwise, even if the whole space was like that, it wouldn’t debunk the size….

You have no genuine arguments wth

 

[TiltedFN]

voila
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1355627188476711112/image.png?ex=67e99db4&is=67e84c34&hm=1c2c92e133826331789ff8be7a78e7a0cfc1d0b5d6bed49077f9fa68f6035ff8&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1362&height=1069
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1355628076855197910/1200.png?ex=67e99e87&is=67e84d07&hm=d41d0e69156bba7e180fc3e695b8e8abcc233f57316bbb8707bc693ffc00f25d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1870&height=1052

Holy whataboutism, dragon ball visuals =/= naruto visuals. You can't use another verse as an example that operates on a whole different cosmology in general and context. Not to mention the "orb like spaces" or "ball spaces" are only elaborated to be the planets themselves, which would be the only thing to make sense for the ETSB to expand and destroy the planet, especially with how long it was taking over the course of the battle.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I’m

Sorry, my mistake, they are not even planet-sized.

But seriously, I see no evidence why it should be the solar system, as shown in the CRT, it is explained to be "sphere spaces", each having its own elements.

For example, one of these sphere spaces is entirely filled with Lava, so why do we assume it also has a sun(star) in the same place?

To me, it seems to be an entire dimension out of an element, that is described as being spherical, so why do we need to "disprove" anything that has no real evidence of in the first place?

other crts exist…. This is a downgrade so obviously the other things are already accepted.

 

[KingTempest]

We know the Otsutsuki realms aren't just planetary in size because momo was literally blown off of his planet by the boruto rasengan. When sasuke was in the sand dimension he was sweating because of the sun there and imo it's a stretch to say that sun was in another dimension, the moon dimension has a moon and other small stars etc, it's just safe to assume they're all in the same time space

Read the thread brother.

Well not necessarily. Dimensions don't really need to be spatiotemporally isolated in order for them to be... dimensions.
At the end of the day, they're spatially separated places.

That is assuming the moon they created just stay in place when we know that clearly is not what happened when Hagoromo created the moon.

No sir, because it can increase in height.
Our currently accepted calc says that the moon in the dimension levitated 3,696 kilometers above the ground. That's still thousands of kilometers under the peak. of the atmosphere.

That is assuming the flux of chakra is constantly the same or that Kaguya's chakra limit is not great enough to destroy the entire place.
Kaguya could just be increasing the flux of chakra by starting small and increasing over time to increase its expansion speed.

These are just a bunch of weird random assumptions.
"It could get faster" prove it.
"The flux of chakra could be increased" prove it."

Anyways this is still assuming that screen time=real time which is not a valid assumption as far as I know on this wiki.

I'm not saying it's exactly 1:1 time.
But in the entire chapter, we have debris freefalling dozens of meters from the ground. We have dialogue. We have thoughts. We have conversations and people communicating. We have even more fights. Even with things like wounds opening and blood traveling we can deduce timeframes. Even if it's a millisecond, a microsecond, distances from deduced timeframes can be pieced apart.

Common sense is a tool too. You wanna tell me they're talking at FTL+ speeds? Debris is moving at FTL speeds? Like actually. It doesn't need to be 1:1, but we can use our brains to say that that entire chapter wasn't a single second long.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The actual point is that these dimensions are always characterized by the planets and nothing else.

Like, to me personally, "orb-like space of lava/ice/acid/sand/etc." is clearly referring to the planets here. In the context of Kaguya's worlds/dimensions, they are very much characterized by these planets. So the point isn't so much that it can't be solar system sized while also being orb shaped; rather the point is why are we even assuming it's more than the planets when the descriptions of said worlds never really attributed anything more than the elemental planets?

Well isn't the planets the main part of the dimension that Kaguya actually utilizes and the main differences between them. Assuming there are stars and moons, what other descriptions would you use? Do you think Kaguya would say "dimension of 1 star, 2 moons, and a planet of ice"? Especially if they all have a star making the attributes of the planet the only true differentiator.

Just because something is a differentiator doesn't imply there is nothing more to the dimensions.

 

[Killerdrone123]

After reading the op and looking further into his arguments I agree with the thread

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I feel like people are misconstruing the crux of KT's argument. And maybe his FoddHoeAss didn't do the best job explaining it, so here's my interpretation of it.

The point isn't "orb space = planet because planet is orb shaped". Obviously, an isolated dimension can both be solar system-ish sized and also have an orb-like border, as many of you pointed out.

The actual point is that these dimensions are always characterized by the planets and nothing else.

Like, to me personally, "orb-like space of lava/ice/acid/sand/etc." is clearly referring to the planets here. In the context of Kaguya's worlds/dimensions, they are very much characterized by these planets. So the point isn't so much that it can't be solar system sized while also being orb shaped; rather the point is why are we even assuming it's more than the planets when the descriptions of said worlds never really attributed anything more than the elemental planets?

So, with that being said, I actually agree with this thread for now. I agree with the second point also.

they're not characterized by planets, like even once, none of the ice lava gravity stuff have any correlation with planetary contexts, you don't even know if the whole planet is a planet of ice

they're called ice dimension or lava dimension because those are their defining characteristics, we can trap characters in lava if we go to the lava dimension, the only reason kaguya would have to enter this dimension is to utilize the lava, nothing else, she cant absorb chakra in the same manner as the main dimension hence lava dimension


that's why they're phrased like that so it's easier to differentiate between the dimensions. It has nothing to do with planets nor does having



they're called timespace (and subspaces in novels) to argue they're just a random planets across the universe is just unbacked headcanon with no basis whatsoever

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

No sir, because it can increase in height.
Our currently accepted calc says that the moon in the dimension levitated 3,696 kilometers above the ground. That's still thousands of kilometers under the peak. of the atmosphere.

Calculations made by us by assuming an height of our own not a given one.

These are just a bunch of weird random assumptions.
"It could get faster" prove it.
"The flux of chakra could be increased" prove it."

Can you prove it didn't?

I'm not saying it's exactly 1:1 time.
But in the entire chapter, we have debris freefalling dozens of meters from the ground. We have dialogue. We have thoughts. We have conversations and people communicating. We have even more fights. Even with things like wounds opening and blood traveling we can deduce timeframes. Even if it's a millisecond, a microsecond, distances from deduced timeframes can be pieced apart.

We already talked about free actions in previous threads, since you seem to mention One Piece then let's downgrade One piece because they can talk while they fight, because explosions shockwaves are much slower than the speed of light, worse because most one piece characters can't actually fly so they should still be falling at slow speeds.

Common sense is a tool too. You wanna tell me they're talking at FTL+ speeds? Debris is moving at FTL speeds? Like actually. It doesn't need to be 1:1, but we can use our brains to say that that entire chapter wasn't a single second long.

Again Free actions.

 

[Samlex1234]

I feel like people are misconstruing the crux of KT's argument. And maybe his FoddHoeAss didn't do the best job explaining it, so here's my interpretation of it.

The point isn't "orb space = planet because planet is orb shaped". Obviously, an isolated dimension can both be solar system-ish sized and also have an orb-like border, as many of you pointed out.

The actual point is that these dimensions are always characterized by the planets and nothing else.

Like, to me personally, "orb-like space of lava/ice/acid/sand/etc." is clearly referring to the planets here. In the context of Kaguya's worlds/dimensions, they are very much characterized by these planets. So the point isn't so much that it can't be solar system sized while also being orb shaped; rather the point is why are we even assuming it's more than the planets when the descriptions of said worlds never really attributed anything more than the elemental planets?

So, with that being said, I actually agree with this thread for now. I agree with the second point also.

Give me where it says Orb like spaces in the original kanji

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well isn't the planets the main part of the dimension that Kaguya actually utilizes and the main differences between them. Assuming there are stars and moons, what other descriptions would you use? Do you think Kaguya would say "dimension of 1 star, 2 moons, and a planet of ice"? Especially if they all have a star making the attributes of the planet the only true differentiator.

Just because something is a differentiator doesn't imply there is nothing more to the dimensions.

You're kinda missing the point. There's space around these planets, enough to fit in a moon and likely a star. I'm not really denying that.
The thing is that the DB is very clearly referring to the planets when describing what Kaguya's 'spaces' actually are. And since the ETSB affects the 'space' and the 'world', it seems to me personally like an unsubstantiated high-ball to say it's referring to more than what we know these 'spaces' to be.

 

[KingTempest]

Well isn't the planets the main part of the dimension that Kaguya actually utilizes and the main differences between them. Assuming there are stars and moons, what other descriptions would you use? Do you think Kaguya would say "dimension of 1 star, 2 moons, and a planet of ice"? Especially if they all have a star making the attributes of the planet the only true differentiator.

Just because something is a differentiator doesn't imply there is nothing more to the dimensions.

Coulda just said "dimension 1, dimension 2, dimension 3" and so on.

These planets aren't even 1% of the solar system that they're in. That's like going into a college campus dormitory building with a bunch of empty rooms and differentiating them as "room with scratch on the wall, room with the tile a pound lighter, room with the kitchen cabinet with the broken handle"

 

[Cyberblader90]

The translation in the op might be a mistranslation, currently discussing with Arc

 

[TheTenno07]

Holy whataboutism, dragon ball visuals =/= naruto visuals. You can't use another verse as an example that operates on a whole different cosmology in general and context. Not to mention the "orb like spaces" or "ball spaces" are only elaborated to be the planets themselves, which would be the only thing to make sense for the ETSB to expand and destroy the planet, especially with how long it was taking over the course of the battle.

In the context of the structure of the universes in Dragon Ball, they would be described as "orb-like space full of planets, stars and galaxies" and not just as places with lava, ice, sand and higher gravity.
By the way Since we are talking about the dimension as having greater gravity, it is very likely that we are only talking about the planet
Cuz, only structures with mass cause gravity.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Clarification, it appears the app I used to rip the kanji from the databook ripped the wrong kanji. Thanks to cyber for catching this lol. The part that I translated as orb-like spaces should say “5 spaces”. The kanji in the scan is 五 not 玉. So my honest mistake there and I apologize.

Again the correct translation is “these 5 spaces” not “these orb-like spaces”. I don’t think that changes anyone’s arguments, but hopefully that helps everyone move past the “orb shape” point

 

[KingTempest]

Calculations made by us by assuming an height of our own not a given one.

So... we scrapping calculations?

Can you prove it didn't?

I'm using the basic assumption of constant velocity. Assuming it increased or decreased is something you need to prove. Saying it expanded by a constant rate due to a constant flow of chakra is the lightest assumption needed

We already talked about free actions in previous threads, since you seem to mention One Piece then let's downgrade One piece because they can talk while they fight, because explosions shockwaves are much slower than the speed of light, worse because most one piece characters can't actually fly so they should still be falling at slow speeds.

Again Free actions.

Free actions ≠ Free of common sense

 

[KingTempest]

The translation in the op might be a mistranslation, currently discussing with Arc

Arc I swear bro Arc I swear

 

[Samlex1234]

Clarification, it appears the app I used to rip the kanji from the databook ripped the wrong kanji. Thanks to cyber for catching this lol. The part that I translated as orb-like spaces should say “5 spaces”. The kanji in the scan is 五 not 玉. So my honest mistake there and I apologize.

Again the correct translation is “these 5 spaces” not “these orb-like spaces”. I don’t think that changes anyone’s arguments, but hopefully that helps everyone move past the “orb shape” point

Wowowow I'm reporting this absolute nonsense

 

[DavidTPPM]

The thing is that the DB is very clearly referring to the planets when describing what Kaguya's 'spaces' actually are.

Why? I genuinely don't see anything that would imply "Kaguya's spaces = planets".
Like what does actually point towards it that I didn't address yet?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Clarification, it appears the app I used to rip the kanji from the databook ripped the wrong kanji. Thanks to cyber for catching this lol. The part that I translated as orb-like spaces should say “5 spaces”. The kanji in the scan is 五 not 玉. So my honest mistake there and I apologize.

Again the correct translation is “these 5 spaces” not “these orb-like spaces”. I don’t think that changes anyone’s arguments, but hopefully that helps everyone move past the “orb shape” point

unforgivable sin. doomed to eternal hell

 

[TiltedFN]

Arc I swear bro Arc I swear

The "spaces" are still only elaborated to be the actual planets itself, the argument really doesn't change here.

 

[KingTempest]

Why? I genuinely don't see anything that would imply "Kaguya's spaces = planets".
Like what does actually point towards it that I didn't address yet?

The "solar system" is a dozen trillion times bigger than the planet
Why would it be called the "ice dimension" if the ice isn't even a trillionth of the dimension

It's known for the elements that the planet embodies, saying that her specific space is just the planet

 

[TiltedFN]

Not to mention the root dimension doesn't even contain a star, it was never shown or seen or stated to exist. Only the sand dimension has a star in it, the exact one the ETSB was going to engulf and the assumption that all other dimensions must have it is both flawed and baseless, especially without direct evidence. Toneri also created a fake star with a day and night cycle.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Holy whataboutism, dragon ball visuals =/= naruto visuals. You can't use another verse as an example that operates on a whole different cosmology in general and context. Not to mention the "orb like spaces" or "ball spaces" are only elaborated to be the planets themselves, which would be the only thing to make sense for the ETSB to expand and destroy the planet, especially with how long it was taking over the course of the battle.

I don't care if you want to whine about comparisons, it's simply for visuals

"theyre elaborated to be planets themselves"

where? there's no elaboration, its just called orb like space and its stopped there

EDIT : lolz look the orb stuff got withdrawn too

 

[DavidTPPM]

Coulda just said "dimension 1, dimension 2, dimension 3" and so on.

What? That makes absolutely no sense.
"dimension 1, dimension 2, dimension 3" and so on doesn't provide any actual differentiation between them. It assigns useless numbers to them when it's much easier to just refer to them by what their main difference is.

This is like saying "oh they should just call the bijuu monster 1, monster 2, monster 3, and so on. And since they're instead calling them by the amount of tails that must mean the bijuu are just sentient tails with no other body parts"

These planets aren't even 1% of the solar system that they're in. That's like going into a college campus dormitory building with a bunch of empty rooms and differentiating them as "room with scratch on the wall, room with the tile a pound lighter, room with the kitchen cabinet with the broken handle"

No, not at all? That's a completely different scenario. Because while the planets only make up a small portion of the solar systems, they are THE part that Kaguya goes to and uses in fights. They're THE part of the dimension both we and team 7 experience.

But when you're in a college campus you don't just experience and use a scratch on a wall. That's such an absurd comparison

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

So... we scrapping calculations?

No, you just don't get to use assumed values of a calculation to use as an argument.

I'm using the basic assumption of constant velocity. Assuming it increased or decreased is something you need to prove. Saying it expanded by a constant rate due to a constant flow of chakra is the lightest assumption needed

So are you saying you measure the speed of expansion of the anime to make sure it's constant or decreasing?

Free actions ≠ Free of common sense

Sure because it's common sense for characters to move or think faster than the speed of light? They don't need to show "flash time" for it to be running at a fast pace, when Naruto was dodging the light fang you saw his movement despite the fact that shouldn't be possible ect.

 

[TiltedFN]

I don't care if you want to whine about comparisons, it's simply for visuals

"theyre elaborated to be planets themselves"

where? there's no elaboration, its just called orb like space and its stopped there

Yeah the visual comparison absolutely doesn't apply here, like I said, the data book only actually elaborates on the characteristics of the "spaces", lave, ice, sand, gravity, acid. So it is so clearly only talking about the planets, which would make sense that it was the thing that would be destroyed by the ETSB, not expand and suddenly destroy the star, and engulf the entire space between. And where's the evidence that the root dimension is a solar system? Where is the star in it? It has one because..... the sand dimension does?

So whichever way you argue it, you do not get solar system sized root dimension because:

1.) It doesn't contain a star, never shown, stated or even implied to. And the assumption that it must is baseless, the sizes of the dimensions were never compared either so assuming they're equal in size is also baseless

2.) Even if you argued that it must contain one, The Last shows us that Otsutsuki can create fake lighting with fake celestial bodies, so even the star in the sand dimension could just be a fake star, and thus the same would follow for the other dimensions

 

[sageof8paths]

The scene doesn't show it expanding the size of 3 earths by every passing second

i guess naruto is sub sonic cuz of on screen movement. what kind of arguement is this man.

the current calc we accept assumes the dimensions are spherical and an “orb” in some sense. this argument is such a stretch

 

[KingTempest]

No, you just don't get to use assumed values of a calculation to use as an argument.

You're doing that RIGHT NOW with the speed point???

So are you saying you measure the speed of expansion of the anime to make sure it's constant or decreasing?

Go do that if you feel like you need to

Sure because it's common sense for characters to move or think faster than the speed of light? They don't need to show "flash time" for it to be running at a fast pace, when Naruto was dodging the light fang you saw his movement despite the fact that shouldn't be possible ect.

There's a big difference between cinematic timeframe (slowing things down so that we can see it) and deduced timeframes

 

[Da3ggman]

Clarification, it appears the app I used to rip the kanji from the databook ripped the wrong kanji. Thanks to cyber for catching this lol. The part that I translated as orb-like spaces should say “5 spaces”. The kanji in the scan is 五 not 玉. So my honest mistake there and I apologize.

Again the correct translation is “these 5 spaces” not “these orb-like spaces”. I don’t think that changes anyone’s arguments, but hopefully that helps everyone move past the “orb shape” point

Generational fumble

 

[DavidTPPM]

The "solar system" is a dozen trillion times bigger than the planet
Why would it be called the "ice dimension" if the ice isn't even a trillionth of the dimension

The size of the solar system is completely irrelevant here. It could be septillion times bigger and it would have zero relevance to the conversation.

Why? Because the planet is still billions of times bigger than Naruto and others. To team 7 and Kaguya, the stars and moons are just dots in the sky while the ice, gravity, lava, etc, are what they actively experience and what Kaguya uses as a weapon against them.

From their perspective all dimensions have a yellow dot in the sky but only one covers them in ice, only one immobilized them with gravity, only one almost burned them with lava, etc.

So constantly bringing up the planet:SS ratio does nothing towards the actual argument besides mislead us from how the characters are actually experiencing the dimensions.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You're doing that RIGHT NOW with the speed point???

I'm not, I'm saying your assumption is not the only possible scenario

Go do that if you feel like you need to

The burden of proof is on you pal

There's a big difference between cinematic timeframe (slowing things down so that we can see it) and deduced timeframes

Not, unless they are stated, your assumption of cinematic time is as good as any.

 

[Godernet]

The fact that the dimensions are categorized by their elements is true.

We see Kaguya call one “ice world” and the Databooks do it too if Slayer is right.

It would be absurd for a dimension that’s only .0001% of its element to get its naming convention from it.

I think there’s an arguable equal interpretation with the dimensions being the planets + stars vs them just being space times that are the size of planets that simply exist in an area that has a star in it.

But so far Slayers’s made the more compelling points that do push more consistency towards the Planet interpretation rather than the Solar System sized one.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not, I'm saying your assumption is not the only possible scenario

You said "you're saying it left the atmosphere"
I said "this isn't the case. It doesn't need to leave the atmosphere to rise"
That's it.

The burden of proof is on you pal

Higher assumptions require higher evidence.

Not, unless they are stated, your assumption of cinematic time is as good as any.

I'm not using cinematic time. I'm using "all these events happened. Common sense dictates that a second didn't pass.

You want me to go calculate the freefall timeframe of the debris falling to prove that it was more than a second long? Like what are we arguing. That the entire arc took place in 5 minutes cause all the characters range from MHS+ to FTL+?

 

[Testarossa002]

I disagree with the thread in its entirety (mostly the first part)
Apart from the points raised above, Kaguya's dimensions are considered similar in characteristics to Momoshiki's by Naruto. Naruto who's as credible as it gets due to his cosmic awareness + actual experience with Kaguya's dimensions. The excerpt below is Naruto's POV as detailed in the Boruto movie novelization which is currently considered as secondary canon

Naruto was inside darkness.

He didn’t think they’d gotten very far from the village of Konohagakure, but, rather than saying this was some place
he didn’t remember, it’d be more accurate to say this was a parallel world.

It was terribly cold, and distortions rippled through the sky. It plainly wasn’t the airspace of his own world.

Kaguya had held the power of sending people into parallel worlds too... Is this something like a kekkai, or a
subspace?

About half of it looked like the second-hand knowledge he had of the games his son played, but this place shouldn’t
be all that different from his own world.

Naruto’s movements were hindered.

Momoshiki's dimension which was shown and stated to contain a Sun/day-night cycle

The ogre had misread the situation.

The rasengan that Boruto had thrown wasn’t Naruto’s rasengan.

His father had only lent him some power.

To the very end, the rasengan had been using Boruto’s technique.

That was why this was Boruto’s victory.

Uzumaki Boruto had accomplished it.

The two men were smiling slightly as they looked at Naruto’s back in the light of the rising sun.

“...This time, it’s my win.” Sasuke said.

 

[KingTempest]

Bro what