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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

Considering attributes govern the entirety of reality ,i was thinking the attributes of light and darkness would qualify for a duality that governs the entire reality thus encompassing it or being unbound by it should qualify for nonduality type 2,what do others think of this
 
The_golden_and_silver_house94 said:
Considering attributes govern the entirety of reality ,i was thinking the attributes of light and darkness would qualify for a duality that governs the entire reality thus encompassing it or being unbound by it should qualify for nonduality type 2,what do others think of this
Click to expand...
For the Web Novel, "Light and Darkness" should definitely be a type 2 duality because the World is born from this duality and it is quite obvious that a duality that creates the World must encompass all the dualities that exist in the World.

However, since there is no such thing in the Light Novel, "Light and Darkness" are currently only a type 1 duality.
 
The_golden_and_silver_house94 said:
Attributes govern the entire reality ,shouldn't it mean the entire reality operates on this duality ,they were called ultimate principles of reality
Click to expand...
Every concept governs all of reality through its related objects.

There is no reason why the duality of "light and darkness" in the light novel should include, for example, the duality of "fire and non-fire" .

However, in the Web Novel, fire and everything else that is not fire are both part of the World, and the duality of light and darkness is what gives birth to the World.

If you still don't understand then you have no idea what the concepts and dualities are.
 
The_golden_and_silver_house94 said:
What i thought was light and darkness should encompass all forms of duality in the verse but thanks for clarification
Click to expand...
That would actually need a proof of all other great spirit somehow being made or influenced by light and darkness at bare minimum for this idea to even be plausible (except maybe time, but it is a special one).

And I can’t remember such a statement existing.
 
CodeCCLL said:
Every concept governs all of reality through its related objects.

There is no reason why the duality of "light and darkness" in the light novel should include, for example, the duality of "fire and non-fire" .

However, in the Web Novel, fire and everything else that is not fire are both part of the World, and the duality of light and darkness is what gives birth to the World.

If you still don't understand then you have no idea what the concepts and dualities are.
Click to expand...
May I ask why god who creator of the cosmology and everything is non-duality type1 instead nd 2
 
Should I put Nep 1 in my Nihility Blog because I have justifications for it though, I can just remove it and then can be put back with at a later date with with evidence for Nep 2?
 
Berga14 said:
there some things to fix before doing an upgrade, also staff basically ignores our crts so no point in an upgrade now.
Click to expand...
I mean ignoring isn’t problem if there is things to fix, however straight up accepting downgrade thread before even having to see the counter argument of the supporter is something else.

I myself see a lot of abilities that need to be removed, reworded ect.

But I feel like everything we do on the verse ultimately vanish within 3 hour when someone do a downgrade whenever it is good or a really bad one, the verse « bad shape » image greatly influences the agree of staff on CRT, wich in understandable, however it often lead to the removal of truly deserved rating in my opinion.

I like the verse but i cannot attend anything currently, not on upgrades sides.

I would like to do fixes but if I do so fear that it would not improve the verse image and lead to more undeserved removals wich is a time eating activity to argue against, i think I will do it anyway undeserved abilities still are undeserved abilities and should not have existed in the 1st place.
 
Cloelolo_60021 said:
Thank you, and would mind explain the reason why it counts for nep 2 when you send the scans
Click to expand...
Ok sorry for the delay. Let me start by explaining how void collapse/nihility collapse/turn null works.

Void collapse gives rimuru the authority over void. He essentially controls void which is nothingness which was used to create the world from nothing.

Now let me explain how diablo regen works. If you resurrect/regen after being erased at a conceptual level and still come back or are said to be able to come back, then you have high-godly regen. Diablo is said to be able to do this when he himself said he is unlike other primordial demons and can come back basically instantly even if he is completely dead. I usually scale him to high godly regen for that reason, there are more but it is too hard to explain that right now so i'll just take that.

Now to actually give scans for how void collapse works.










https://imgur.com/cBWVEXG

https://imgur.com/yzZC5Or

Ok, so i know that is a lot of scans but let me explain. These are all just to show how void works in tensura, and void collapse is just the ability that allows the user to control void. Void is true nothingness, there is nothing before void in tensura. Veldanava himself couldn't control full power of void and lost it. Diablo and testarossa were using it proportional to the level of their ability or the amount they can summon at the moment. Also note that they are using the ability through their connection to rimuru and not directly which if rimuru uses it will probably scale him much much much higher in volume 23.

Ok now back to void, information based regeneration, resurrection based regeneration are completely ineffective thanks to void. No matter the existence value, they will be devoured. I mean this is shown by how diablo was able to fight against feldway, who is so much stronger. There is a lot more thinigs like it is the power to create everything and destroy everything but i'll leave it for now.

Now explaining how it is NEP type 2. It erases completely at information and conceptual level. Nobody can control it at its full power. But strictly based on the shown feats as well it created the world and can destroy the world if uncontrolled. Since it erases down to the fundamental level where nothing works against it (according to the scans essentially), it should qualify for NEP 2.

It is not a character so it is hard to go by vsbw definitions, but the 4 non existence mentioned in vsbw are spiritual, conceptual, information and mental nonexistence. They also mention material, idealistic, and paradoxical. It easily qualifies for materialistic. Idealistic is something possible since "imo" it has specific nondualty which counts for idealistic nonexistence. Paradoxical, i don't even understand how this works so i'll just say no i guess.

So yea, all of these factors including many cannon statements of it being called true/complete nothingness should count for NEP type 2.
 
Sorry for that long text above but i had to find most information about void. It is like such a long topic in tensura. In my humble opinion, i think rimuru might surpass even veldanava after he completely masters void collapse. This will probably happen in volume 23. There are many things happening in volume 22 which i will cover later, like a brief summary and how rimuru could potentially get an upgrade in just this volume and has the potential to get a masssive upgrade even a tier like 1-B or 1-A in the next volume but this is just the potential and what i understood based on reading the entirety of volume 22. So yes, again sorry for the long text above.
 
From these scans I can see arguments that could be made for Turn Null as non-existence nature type 2 energy, but it could also just be seen as chaos energy that comes before Hell's void (non-existence nature type 1).

I think @ActuallySpaceMan42 is experienced about such things according to the verses he is dealing with, so might be a good idea to ask him. But I'm not sure if he will answer.
 
CodeCCLL said:
From these scans I can see arguments that could be made for Turn Null as non-existence nature type 2 energy, but it could also just be seen as chaos energy that comes before Hell's void (non-existence nature type 1).
Click to expand...
I’m on my phone so I can’t see well but I think they left out this one scan where it explains that Nihility Collapse is the point of nonexistence for the Abyss of Hell like it is for Negative Energy. We got it translated somewhere.
 
Lycoris4812 said:
I’m on my phone so I can’t see well but I think they left out this one scan where it explains that Nihility Collapse is the point of nonexistence for the Abyss of Hell like it is for Negative Energy. We got it translated somewhere.
Click to expand...
I think this what what you are talking about. I'll just quote it since i am too lazy to send scan picture.

"Testarossa's unknown power is the "Nihilistic World".
The power to manifest the abyss of hell in this world - or so we might say." Volume 22

"And the abyss of hell was a region where even such high-ranking beings could not survive.
Testarossa's "White Pure World [Nihilistic World]" can summon that abyss into the present
world.
Incidentally, Ultima's speciality, dark magic: [Nihilistic Vanish], is a magic that imitates the
mechanism of the abyss of Hell. Since it is deployed to cover not only a wide area but the entire
region, it can be understood how dangerous this is.
In the unlikely event that Testarossa fails to control it, the "void" will overflow endlessly, and the
world will be swallowed by the ever-expanding abyss and collapse." Volume 22

""Void Collapse" is, in the first place, an "event" that is essentially uncontrollable. It's like forcing
Testarossa to use the "Void" that she has poured her heart and soul into controlling as pure
energy.
The abyss of hell that has collapsed, or -- "the chaos before hell was born" is the essence of
"Void Collapse." It would be strange for someone to survive using such dangerous energy." Volume 22

these especially the last quote say that void is essentially the abyss of hell collapsed or chaos before hell was born. This is similar to what you said but not the exact wording. I think i put this scan as well but i might've forgot. But yes, this also adds for the NEP type 2 part. I'll confirm this. I could get a potential upgrade for rimuru's void based abilities with this, maybe for his attack potency but just a little furthur than normal. His regenertion could also use for an upgrade since volume 21 was anyways not that much about rimuru, he got s pretty nice buff after coming back from the EOTAS. He has omnipotent cells which are the only things that can counter the destruction speed of void.
 
CodeCCLL said:
From these scans I can see arguments that could be made for Turn Null as non-existence nature type 2 energy, but it could also just be seen as chaos energy that comes before Hell's void (non-existence nature type 1).

I think @ActuallySpaceMan42 is experienced about such things according to the verses he is dealing with, so might be a good idea to ask him. But I'm not sure if he will answer.
Click to expand...
I sent a message to @ActuallySpaceMan42. I will try to explain why it is not just chaos energy that comes before the abyss of hell.



The abyss of hell could be scaled to NEP 1, i mean i don't need to explain, i think. In the scan mentioned above, it is mentioned that it predates it and it is the "abyss of hell collapsed" now this has many meanings. collapsed could be abyss of hell destroyed, erased (probably not true). when googling what collapsed means, it also includes break down and come to nothing (similar words). If we take these terms in the literal sense, come to nothing means it can even bring void of hell to nothing. Which could count for NEP 2. Now if we take something like break down, it could mean just break down void which could count for NEP 2, which is possibly counterable. Destroyed means just destroyed something like bring to nothing but not in the literal sense, so counts for NEP 2. I think the term 'collapsed' could mean many things, some more than others in this sense mean 'come to nothing', which counts for NEP 2. Also, chaos energy can be resisted or restored by canonically void cannot. Unless you are some insane special case you cannot control it.

Chaos Energy usually means an uncontrollable primordial force, not true nothingness.
Void Collapse isn’t just a force of destruction it returns everything to true nothingness, where even existence values don’t matter.
If that weren’t the case, high-level existence erasure resistance or regeneration should work against it, but they don’t.

But yes, i will wait for SpaceMan to reply for confirmation.
 
MetaChronos said:
Ok sorry for the delay. Let me start by explaining how void collapse/nihility collapse/turn null works.

Void collapse gives rimuru the authority over void. He essentially controls void which is nothingness which was used to create the world from nothing.

Now let me explain how diablo regen works. If you resurrect/regen after being erased at a conceptual level and still come back or are said to be able to come back, then you have high-godly regen. Diablo is said to be able to do this when he himself said he is unlike other primordial demons and can come back basically instantly even if he is completely dead. I usually scale him to high godly regen for that reason, there are more but it is too hard to explain that right now so i'll just take that.

Now to actually give scans for how void collapse works.










https://imgur.com/cBWVEXG

https://imgur.com/yzZC5Or

Ok, so i know that is a lot of scans but let me explain. These are all just to show how void works in tensura, and void collapse is just the ability that allows the user to control void. Void is true nothingness, there is nothing before void in tensura. Veldanava himself couldn't control full power of void and lost it. Diablo and testarossa were using it proportional to the level of their ability or the amount they can summon at the moment. Also note that they are using the ability through their connection to rimuru and not directly which if rimuru uses it will probably scale him much much much higher in volume 23.

Ok now back to void, information based regeneration, resurrection based regeneration are completely ineffective thanks to void. No matter the existence value, they will be devoured. I mean this is shown by how diablo was able to fight against feldway, who is so much stronger. There is a lot more thinigs like it is the power to create everything and destroy everything but i'll leave it for now.

Now explaining how it is NEP type 2. It erases completely at information and conceptual level. Nobody can control it at its full power. But strictly based on the shown feats as well it created the world and can destroy the world if uncontrolled. Since it erases down to the fundamental level where nothing works against it (according to the scans essentially), it should qualify for NEP 2.

It is not a character so it is hard to go by vsbw definitions, but the 4 non existence mentioned in vsbw are spiritual, conceptual, information and mental nonexistence. They also mention material, idealistic, and paradoxical. It easily qualifies for materialistic. Idealistic is something possible since "imo" it has specific nondualty which counts for idealistic nonexistence. Paradoxical, i don't even understand how this works so i'll just say no i guess.

So yea, all of these factors including many cannon statements of it being called true/complete nothingness should count for NEP type 2.
Click to expand...



Thank you for taking the time to explain everything to me.🙏🏻
 
@CodeCCLL so @ActuallySpaceMan42 said he is not scaling or doing anything related to tensura as a verse atm. I think my argument could stand as it has very few counters, but yea, starting a thread atm could pose to be an issue as staff are not listening to few of our arguments atm. I’ll leave this decision up to you. I’ll leave the NEP 2 argument for now and go to other topics.
 
Due to the numerous downgrades in recent times, the Tensura verse has significantly weakened. It has lost NEP2 and High Godly Regeneration, defensive abilities for high-tier characters have decreased, and AP has also been lowered and even speed is so slow for tier 1 characters I hope that in the future, we will have hax that can compare to other top-ranking verses
 
Cloelolo_60021 said:
Due to the numerous downgrades in recent times, the Tensura verse has significantly weakened. It has lost NEP2 and High Godly Regeneration, defensive abilities for high-tier characters have decreased, and AP has also been lowered. I hope that in the future, we will have hax that can compare to other top-ranking verses
Click to expand...
i agree. i also think there are some deserving upgrades for tensura. I can state a few of them later including the NEP 2 revision that codeCCLL partially agrees with which is awaiting confirmation. The speed should be reverted or at least buffed to infinite. There are other void based upgrades and there is also rimuru's upgrade which i will give a complete breakdown of later. So yes, there are quite a few upgrades necessary which we will probably get later after some mess is settled, but for now i think opening a new thread could be a bad idea. Should wait for CodeCCLL, Lycoris 4812, and Berga14 to approve starting a thread before anything as without Astral imo they are the most knowledgable about tensura.
 
Cloelolo_60021 said:
the Tensura verse has significantly weakened
Click to expand...
Things built on broken foundations will eventually down, so these downgrade do not weaken the verse. It is better to build solidly from scratch.

I will never understand why people always try to crazy upgrade the verse. The verse is already overpowered lol.

6-B, High 6-B, 6-A, High 6-A, 5-B (formerly), Low 2-C (formerly), 2-C (formerly), 2-A (formerly), Low 1-C it doesn't matter Tensura always had the strongest characters on the wiki for that tier.
 
CodeCCLL said:
Things built on broken foundations will eventually down, so these downgrade do not weaken the verse. It is better to build solidly from scratch.

I will never understand why people always try to crazy upgrade the verse. The verse is already overpowered lol.

6-B, High 6-B, 6-A, High 6-A, 5-B (formerly), Low 2-C (formerly), 2-C (formerly), 2-A (formerly), Low 1-C it doesn't matter Tensura always had the strongest characters on the wiki for that tier.
Click to expand...
heavily agree on the take to solidify base of the verse rather than building uncertainties on fragiles basis for the sake of power scaling, we are here to give a proper rating to verse not « inflate it »
 
Ok so i will give a complete breakdown of how rimuru can get an upgrade as said before. Work with me here because there are a lot of complex stuff.

First, in volume 19-20, after rimuru defeats micheal, he devours him and gets every single angelic skill in the verse. all 14. And these skills were said to each represent a part of existence in the world. Rimuru gaining all of these skills could represent that rimuru had gained total control over all existence in the verse. These angelic skills were created by Veldanava and are the strongest skills in the verse.

Now for the harvest king. Rimuru with ciel has such an overpowered analysis that he can infinitely grow stronger with just 2 skills including his manas and the harvest king which allows him to recreate basically any skill he wants after analyzing it and can even upgrade the skill like it did with turn null. Let us leave that there.

Now, rimuru after defeating feldway is sent to the end of space and time, where ciel literally said it would recreate the entire world of tensura with every person existing down to the last detail to be as close as possible to the real world. This was something that helped with the claim of nigh omniscient. Also, ciel said she would use turn null/nihility power to do this which is non existence power. This itself is a feat to rival veldanava's creation of tensura. But i'll leave that there.

Now rimuru comes back from the EOSAT. This al; happens in volume 22 so watch out for major spoilers ahead.

Now what is the context? Milim is under the control of Feldway who is trying to destroy the entire world. This is the important part, ivarage, who we can see from astral's tier 0 thread, is now after losing her godhood is attacking the world. Luminas tries to defend everything, she rallies basically every non insane person in tensura for help. They get wiped basically instantly, but luminas keeps reviving many people to stall ivarage as she is the strongest in the verse at the moment. Other than rimuru of course.

Ok all of rimuru's subordinates are facing the most annoying threats which are milim, feldway, and there is also twillight. Twillight is handled by testerossa pretty well so i will not delve into that. Feldway is handled by diablo after getting rimuur's omnipotent cells and using void abilities, but eventually he escapes because rimuru was doing some nonsense again. Finally Milim.

Milim Is too broken at the moment
Milim uses Stampede. Stampede is the ability which gives the user infinite potential. And no, this is not an exaggeration. Milim was invincible. Feldway said she was his equal and this was at the time he said it (sorry i couldn't find the scan but i swear i read it somewhere, i'll get the scan at a later date just trust me for now please). She grew stronger by much much more after he said this because stampede.





Even the destruction of the entirety of tensura was possible because of milim with stampede. Chloe used some ability to stop milim from growing stronger using stampede, as mentioned above but could only stall her for a little bit.

Now to show into perspective the strength of milim's dragon nova that she was about to use with stampede. look at the scan below.



This is an insane feat that even veldora, who is one of the strongest characters at the moment couldn't stop that attack. He basically said the cardinal world is done for.

Now for the actual scaling part, Rimuru comes ack and he just eats the attack. This is when milim launches the attack and everyone was bracing to die.



Now, rimuru eats this attacks and processes this completely organized. Milim and veldanava use a magic system or something called stardust. The drago nova used by milim was also by stardust. It is something that if we go just by the rumors, can rival even turn null to some extent. I mean rimuru still didn't use any powers, fight with anything at all, he was just playing around at this point. Ciel even didn't care about the drago nova which scared veldora to death. Feldway stroggles with diablo also anyways and rimuru sets up watch over the entirety of tensura to find even the slightest scan for him using some ability.



Now for range and attack potency possible upgrade,
https://imgur.com/cvu66Zy

He can ignore distance in his attacks and abilities.

Conclusion
Rimuru gets a pretty major upgrade in skills and existence value and everything after returning from EOTAS. Like just read the stampede section and it just makes it insane. There is also instantaneous motion that can be used in combat. There is also him able to scan the entire world at once for feldway. Too many things.

Thanks for reading till here. Sorry for the long text, but if you make it till here, please tell me your review on it.
 
CodeCCLL said:
Things built on broken foundations will eventually down, so these downgrade do not weaken the verse. It is better to build solidly from scratch.
Click to expand...
Speaking basis for the verse i don’t understand how we were able to completely overlook Aura/fighting-spirit and the abilities it cover such as battlewill and the fusing of it with magic leading to mystic arts (aura + magic) wich do have different and incredible properties compare to regular magic or aura.
Also there is about almost half the cast who prefer using aura based techniques rather than pure magic.

I think will try to introduce aura after doing some clean up CRT on pages (about undeserved abilities)

When it come to true dragon level character like dagruel, its mere aura was able to completely stop shion blade from even touching him despite her possessing a God-grade sword, wich are on ultimate level in terms of effects and her unique skill bending laws to reach the desired outcome :

Some feat I collected on shion unique and I am not even half way through : modifying the law of nature is a specialty of the unique skill master chef, capable of modifying the results of holy field projected into the world. holy field is a magic spell that purify the magicule inside of it resulting in nothing to impact the law of nature even special skill may not be able to escape it effect. despite that holy field is said by shion to « modify the rules a little bit », she is rewritting the barrier with something more of her liking akin to rewriting the cook-books. Using her unique skill she is also capable to warp and twist the law that govern the existence of someone to the point that healing magic hardly work on them. She can obtain the results she want just by thinking about it, the only way too counter it would be to have a stronger will while assuming you could mess with the law of nature too. She was able to harm and defeat Clayman a unique skill holder that normally resist to extent magic based power. with the use of chaotic fate, she was able to damage and defeat Razul who was previously effortlessly resisting her Master Chef skill. Resulting in her will being able to alter the result of all natural phenomenon.)
Click to expand...

Hell in volume 20 it is even heavily implied that a regular disintegration would not kill him due to his « thick fighting spirit » luminous was forced to use a stronger and expanded of it (sanctuary disintegration).

And i don’t believe it is only about range here otherwise there would be any problem about the thickness and durability of dagruel fighting spirit, however if it is direct hit without his aura protecting him he die like mentioned in the scans (without cancel magic too) like everybody in the series in fact apart from very few exceptions.
 
@ashen i agree with this take for now. I am kind of familiar with aura/fighting spirit. I thought it was not a concept that was widely explained compared to some others in tensura, but i think others will check it as well. I will check about aura later and get a brief summary on how useful it is compared to some strong threats and enemies.
 
So guys I just wanted to know if this is a possibility. Chloe’s skill evolved from king of space and time yog sothoth to god of space and time yog sothoth. It’s just a massive upgrade simply put.
Now can rimuru’s harvest king shub-niggurath evolve into god of harvest shub-niggurath? This is possible in volume 23 I think.
 
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