Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Alexander]

It's interesting to think creators with a normie understanding of powerscaling can say things like this sometimes. Maybe someone had a point when he said they were equal. And now's the time to show just how equal they are....

i have this idea:
Flash uses his phasing to phase a enemy, and then tells sonic that he can vibrate his molecules to be able to pass through things, but Sonic says that he can also do that, then he concentrates and vibrates his molecules at super speed to then pass through several enemies and objects.
Flash finds this impressive, supporting even more than Sonic is incredible by being able to do it without having a connection that runs across all of existence, then Sonic shows him his spin dash technique and says "Doing a spin dash is like jumping, you just have to squeeze your legs and arms harder to do it"then he Blitzes a bunch of enemies in a single blow, then Flash proceds to do it, and it forms a ball of lightning on his own body to then launch himself and destroy the enemies even more.
both talk to each other about how impressive it is for them to have their own thing, but they both have a quality:Speed

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

One thing I find funny is that despite Ian Flynn liking to reference stuff, he never really references back to Sonic Battle aside from Emerl in Dark Beginnings. Would love to see Chaos Magic, Chaos Burst, and those moves come back and shown in actual comic form. Shadow didn't use any of that even in the Archie comics.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

i have this idea:
Flash uses his phasing to phase a enemy, and then tells sonic that he can vibrate his molecules to be able to pass through things, but Sonic says that he can also do that, then he concentrates and vibrates his molecules at super speed to then pass through several enemies and objects.
Flash finds this impressive, supporting even more than Sonic is incredible by being able to do it without having a connection that runs across all of existence, then Sonic shows him his spin dash technique and says "Doing a spin dash is like jumping, you just have to squeeze your legs and arms harder to do it"then he Blitzes a bunch of enemies in a single blow, then Flash proceds to do it, and it forms a ball of lightning on his own body to then launch himself and destroy the enemies even more.
both talk to each other about how impressive it is for them to have their own thing, but they both have a quality:Speed

Same mold, different ways to do it.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

One thing I find funny is that despite Ian Flynn liking to reference stuff, he never really references back to Sonic Battle aside from Emerl in Dark Beginnings. Would love to see Chaos Magic, Chaos Burst, and those moves come back and shown in actual comic form. Shadow didn't use any of that even in the Archie comics.

Part of me wonders if that's due to its somewhat weird spot in the continuity. Wasn't it stated Battle is only "semi-canon" or something?

 

[Executor_N0]

One thing I find funny is that despite Ian Flynn liking to reference stuff, he never really references back to Sonic Battle aside from Emerl in Dark Beginnings. Would love to see Chaos Magic, Chaos Burst, and those moves come back and shown in actual comic form. Shadow didn't use any of that even in the Archie comics.

A bit of that ia because of the idea those moves aren't canon. Going from what both him and Chris said, just because somethings are possible in gameplay, doesn't mean they are real in the in-universe lore.

So stuff like Shadow's other chaos moves was on the same state like Amy's invisibility, just a gameplay element.

 

[Alexander]

A bit of that ia because of the idea those moves aren't canon. Going from what both him and Chris said, just because somethings are possible in gameplay, doesn't mean they are real in the in-universe lore.

So stuff like Shadow's other chaos moves was on the same state like Amy's invisibility, just a gameplay element.

then why are we using it?

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Going from what both him and Chris said, just because somethings are possible in gameplay, doesn't mean they are real in the in-universe lore.

H-How does that make any sense? Unless Sonic is a franchise that secretly has a lot of meta elements where the player is an actual entity and can, like, enhance the capabilities of the characters then that's somehow simultaneously the most confusing and dumbest thing I've heard.

 

[Alexander]

H-How does that make any sense? Unless Sonic is a franchise that secretly has a lot of meta elements where the player is an actual entity and can, like, enhance the capabilities of the characters then that's somehow simultaneously the most confusing and dumbest thing I've heard.

i mean in universe, the characters know they are in a videogame/show/comic

 

[Theuser789]

Ian just doesn't like using those moves, that's all. He explained in Bumblekast Sega let's him, he just likes to keep the basic moves.

 

[Executor_N0]

then why are we using it?

Because the only one actually advocating for that was Ian, only now has Chris started to support that by telling how stuff like the Special Stages and the Rings don't need to be canon just because they appear in the games, as there's a difference between canon lore and gameplay. And even then the examples he gave (Rings and Special Stages) are very contested due to how they appear and are mentioned outside of gameplay.

H-How does that make any sense? Unless Sonic is a franchise that secretly has a lot of meta elements where the player is an actual entity and can, like, enhance the capabilities of the characters then that's somehow simultaneously the most confusing and dumbest thing I've heard.

You don't need a meta-franchise to have a difference between gameplay and in-universe lore, it's a common trope that at one point even had its own page in this very Wiki. In fact, at one point, it used to be standard not to use any abilities or attacks only seen in gameplay, only use what appears directly in the story. After a lot of time thanks to franchises that integrate more gameplay abilities into the lore, this segregation started to phase out from common usage and nowadays it seems people already default for gameplay abilities to have an in-universe equivalent.

Of course, as with everything that is an interpretation, this only gives rise to different types of media analysis and criticism, you'll have more story purists who only accept what is seen in cutscenes and stories, and you'll have those who favor one method over the other.

It just happens that people like Chris have a more "there's the actual canon lore, then there's everything else" approach to things that often will cause confusion with others (As it was with the whole Speed Simulator stuff).

 

[Alexander]

Because the only one actually advocating for that was Ian, only now has Chris started to support that by telling how stuff like the Special Stages and the Rings don't need to be canon just because they appear in the games, as there's a difference between canon lore and gameplay. And even then the examples he gave (Rings and Special Stages) are very contested due to how they appear and are mentioned outside of gameplay.

i don't remember special stages being mentioned

 

[Executor_N0]

i don't remember special stages being mentioned

Special Stages were mentioned since the very first Sonic game, as the story manual explains they are spatial warps that were created by the Chaos Emeralds. Then other games also mention it like Sonic Triple Trouble, Knuckles Chaotix, etc.

What I think happened is that since most of these mentions were exclusive to game manuals and it seems there's a push to create something unbounded by the manuals, they are free to just ignore it (I see no reason to do that, but they seem open for that).

 

[ShakeResounding]

Ian just doesn't like using those moves, that's all. He explained in Bumblekast Sega let's him, he just likes to keep the basic moves.

Ian is a dweeb mongrel. Gets all this praise from the fandom when he's a boring, character-ruining, franchise-distorting hack that can't even be bothered to make Sonic fight in a cool way.

But look on the bright side! References and the Spin Dash!

 

[Alexander]

Ian is a dweeb mongrel. Gets all this praise from the fandom when he's a boring, character-ruining, franchise-distorting hack that can't even be bothered to make Sonic fight in a cool way

i am infinite%sure Ian is not a artist and he didn't ruin any characters

 

[ShakeResounding]

i am infinite%sure Ian is not a artist

He doesn't need tobe with how they worked together, Ian himself stated he can say how he wants a panel framed or the likes.

So it would be as easy as pulling up a referential move (Cross Slash for example) and asking his artist to fit it in.

 

[Alexander]

He doesn't need tobe with how they worked together, Ian himself stated he can say how he wants a panel framed or the likes.

So it would be as easy as pulling up a referential move (Cross Slash for example) and asking his artist to fit it in.

that sounds like a hard move to do...but man, the scene of super sonic blitzing?that was good

 

[ShakeResounding]

that sounds like a hard move to do...

Probably, but anything is better than what Ian's intent seems to be (the same it's been for years, for years more, being any variation of a Spin Attack/Dash).

It just feels so lame, knowing Ian is actively harming this franchise and its potential with his "vision" of the series

 

[Alexander]

It just feels so lame, knowing Ian is actively harming this franchise and its potential with his "vision" of the series

how is Ian harming the franchise?like, he actually did something good, he is not damaging anything, yes i found it annoying that the powerscaling is so...wack, but it is not totally his fault, he can actually put powerscaling stuff into this (we still got the acausality from sonic frontiers)so he is just a bit complicated

 

[ShakeResounding]

how is Ian harming the franchise?

• Character assassination of the highest magnitude
• Making personal headcanon ACTUAL canon
• Attempting to get rid of the Sol Dimension for a shitty merge with Sonic's World
• Interstellar travel not making sense to him
  • From this, wanting to make the Dodon Pa Kingdom an extra planet in the local solar system
• Was completely unaware that the JP Sonic Channel stories even existed.
• Refuses to let go if this idea that the characters MUST remain the same for the "vision" of the franchise (you want character growth? LEAVE)
• Doesn't know how to write Shadow (self-admitted)
• Doesn't know how to write Amy (self-admitted).

I don't think I need to say more. He's chalk full of bad ideas.

like, he actually did something good

Like what?

he is not damaging anything, yes i found it annoying that the powerscaling is so...wack, but it is not totally his fault, he can actually put powerscaling stuff into this

It's not even the powerscaling, Flynn can't even downllay right (lol at Base Sonic running from the Titans).

 

[Alexander]

Like what?

mother ******* frontiers and shadow generations?

 

[ShakeResounding]

mother ******* frontiers and shadow generations?

Typical Ian fans giving Flynn full credit for a multi-hundred person development project.

Ian didn't compose the music or do concept art or ANY of the heavy lifting. Seriously, my question still stands.

 

[Alexander]

• Character assassination of the highest magnitude

it was just one scene, Shadow character was going downhill since forces.

• Making personal headcanon ACTUAL canon

like which ones?

• Attempting to get rid of the Sol Dimension for a shitty merge with Sonic's World

it was just a idea, and he explained that the reason why he wanted to do it, is because Sega didn't even allowed him to do anything with it, in his reasoning "why do i have this...and i am not allowed to explore it?"

• Interstellar travel not making sense to him
  • From this, wanting to make the Dodon Pa Kingdom an extra planet in the local solar system

never heard this

• Was completely unaware that the JP Sonic Channel stories even existed.

is not like everyone is aware of them

• Refuses to let go if this idea that the characters MUST remain the same for the "vision" of the franchise (you want character growth? LEAVE)

and still made it work anyway, and people like it (some didn't)also this guy likes Sonic for a reason, if he wanted to leave, he will already have done it

• Doesn't know how to write Shadow (self-admitted)

maybe because he wants to actually give him the respect the character deserves?like, making him lose the metal virus, but because of going into full power mode

• Doesn't know how to write Amy (self-admitted).

He himself mentioned that he wants Amy to not only be someone who loves Sonic, her loving Sonic is not a problem, it is a problem when it is something more central to her character (by the way, man there are already many complaints that the way Amy is written is ridiculous)

 

[Fezzih_007]

Attempting to get rid of the Sol Dimension for a shitty merge with Sonic's World

Why is that a bad Idea?
I read that in a Tumblr post, and I kinda understand why merging them makes sense.

Spoiler: The reasoning in the post that I agree

For some reason people seem to think that Blaze being from a separate dimension isn't a storytelling hurdle at all, and I really don't know what franchise they're following, because it sure as hell isn't the version of Sonic I know. Yes, in theory it could be as simple as just using a warp ring to hop over to the Sol Dimension whenever. There are ways to write around it. I'd love to see that happen so that we could flesh out Blaze's world some more. Give Blaze some more allies and villains of her own! Give her more to do over there, and more reasons for Sonic and co. to visit! But clearly Sega isn't down with that, considering the Sol Dimension has only ever been in one game and, what, two issues of the IDW comics for maybe ten pages total? Sega's just sitting on it, and it's impossible not to see the fact that it's a whole separate dimension as the reason.

Even if we were getting more stories about traveling to and from the Sol Dimension, it'd still be a hassle. You want to use the Chaotix in a story in the Sol Dimension? Wanna use Marine or Johnny or whoever in a story set on the main world? Well, you'd better think up an airtight excuse for why those characters are traveling between the dimensions and pray that Sega approves of it. And right now that seems to be one hell of an obstacle, given how little we see of the Sol Dimension even though I know damn well Ian and Evan would love to explore it more. It's gotten to the point that Blaze is now on an endless "vacation" on Sonic's Earth so that they can actually use her in stories. People have been acting like merging the worlds would completely take away everything that makes Blaze special as a character, when it would just make all of her personal story stuff infinitely easier to work with than it is right now.

"Oh but what about the Sol Emeralds?" There's no reason the Sol Emeralds couldn't exist on the same planet as the Chaos Emeralds. We've already got other magic rocks like the Time Stones, the Phantom Ruby, and the Warp Topaz. "But what about Eggman Nega?" I could not give less of a shit about what happens to Eggman Nega and Sega doesn't even use him anymore, but also he's already supposed to be from Silver's future, not the Sol Dimension. "But what about the plot of Sonic Rush where the whole point was that they had to stop the worlds from being merged because they thought it was a bad thing?" Yes, because Sonic has always been a series that treated canon as sacred an immutable, and Sega would never do something that contradicted a game from almost 20 years ago

 

[ShakeResounding]

it was just one scene, Shadow character was going downhill since forces.

Shadow's character unironically got worse under Flynn.

like which ones?

He says them often on the Bumblekast. I'll look for some later.

it was just a idea, and he explained that the reason why he wanted to do it, is because Sega didn't even allowed him to do anything with it, in his reasoning "why do i have this...and i am not allowed to explore it?"

An idiotic and horrible idea. Part of the appeal of the Sol Dimension is the entirely new locale, making it part of Sonic's World immediately and effectively guys it as anything special. It's now "just an empire".

never heard this

It's one of the stupider ones. Apparently he doesn't think interstellar travel should be possible and that it doesn't make sense.

is not like everyone is aware of them

Fine. I expect better from him but fine, fair

and still made it work anyway, and people like it (some didn't)also this guy likes Sonic for a reason, if he wanted to leave, he will already have done it

He is absolutely not making it work. In fact, he's changing Amy more radically than anybody prior and his vision of the character is legit D-tier.

maybe because he wants to actually give him the respect the character deserves?like, making him lose the metal virus, but because of going into full power mode

Ironic, considering Shadow had gotten some of the least amount of respect under Flynn than basically anyone. (Cowards Run, I Win)

He himself mentioned that he wants Amy to not only be someone who loves Sonic, her loving Sonic is not a problem, it is a problem when it is something more central to her character

No it wasn't. Flynn MADE it a problem, that's the issue, and now all his fanboys just wanna revomit his ideas.

(by the way, man there are already many complaints that the way Amy is written is ridiculous)

Same goes for every character.

Doesn't excuse making it worse.

 

[Theuser789]

Why is that a bad Idea?
I read that in a Tumblr post, and I kinda understand why merging them makes sense.

Yeah, let's just remove the one thing that makes Blaze unique, sure. Then let's remove Amy's love for Sonic, Shadow's brooding edge, Knuckles being a guardian, Rouge being a thief, Silver being from the future and basically every other character's unique trait. Let's just make every character the snarky speedster that's part of a resistance.

 

[Alexander]

Shadow's character unironically got worse under Flynn.

a few times.

He says them often on the Bumblekast. I'll look for some later.

ah so...?

An idiotic and horrible idea. Part of the appeal of the Sol Dimension is the entirely new locale, making it part of Sonic's World immediately and effectively guys it as anything special. It's now "just an empire".

except that being another dimension... it doesn't do anything either, they literally do nothing with being another dimension, we don't explore it, we don't see anything, we just know that it exists, man, even a random planet from the Sonic universe has more history than another dimension

It's one of the stupider ones. Apparently he doesn't think interstellar travel should be possible and that it doesn't make sense.

explain

Fine. I expect better from him but fine, fair

ok

He is absolutely not making it work. In fact, he's changing Amy more radically than anybody prior and his vision of the character is legit D-tier.

how is this Amy bad?she still loves Sonic but to the point where most of her part in the story are about him

Ironic, considering Shadow had gotten some of the least amount of respect under Flynn than basically anyone. (Cowards Run, I Win)

people keep spamming that more than the ******* 06 memes

No it wasn't. Flynn MADE it a problem, that's the issue, and now all his fanboys just wanna revomit his ideas.

what do you mean it wasn't????

Same goes for every character.

oh yeah you are right...except maybe...i don't know the zetis?

Doesn't excuse making it worse.

what

 

[Alexander]

Yeah, let's just remove the one thing that makes Blaze unique, sure.

man, she is a princess, she has the sol emeralds, she has fire powers, her being from another dimension is not the only unique thing she has?also, again, the problem is that, THEY JUST DON'T ALLOW HER DIMENSION TO HAVE ANYTHING.

Then let's remove Amy's love for Sonic.

they didn't

Shadow's brooding edge

man they are trying to fix it

Knuckles being a guardian

At this point it's a joke because KNUCKLES ALWAYS LEAVES THE ISLAND.

Rouge being a thief

she is lawful neutral.

Silver being unique

he is from the future, has telekinetic powers and is a time traveler, what unique traits does this guy have?

and basically every other character's unique trait. Let's just make every character the snarky speedster that's part of a resistance.

this feels like a lie

 

[JED]

mother ******* frontiers and shadow generations?

Flynn didn’t self create these stories. Stop this misinformation. The higher ups at Sega and Sonic Team wrote the story, they simply told him to write the script. But the story itself was penned by others. Hence why Shadow acts differently in the actual games compared to the comics.

Wild that for all the shit the “mandates” get, they are unironically what prevented IDW shadow from leaking into the games.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah, let's just remove the one thing that makes Blaze unique, sure.

You act like merging the worlds would completely take away everything that makes Blaze special as a character, when it would just make all of her personal story stuff infinitely easier to work with than it is right now.

Like, her being from another dimension is not a good thing, If Sega don't write stories about that, or explore the concepts a little more often.

 

[ShakeResounding]

ah so...?

I'm not dropping everything to look for it right now. I'm not your slave.

except that being another dimension... it doesn't do anything either, they literally do nothing with being another dimension, we don't explore it, we don't see anything, we just know that it exists, man, even a random planet from the Sonic universe has more history than another dimension

It has the potential for far more as a dimensionally separated kingdom than as "just another kingdom"

explain

He thinks the Sonic World being able to use spaceships for distances beyond the solar system is stupid

how is this Amy bad?she still loves Sonic but to the point where most of her part in the story are about him

This Amy is bad because it entirely misrepresents what Amy stood for, there's a reason many held Amy as the weakest character in Frontiers.

people keep spamming that more than the ******* 06 memes

Because it's really that bad. Thank God Sega didn't let Ian have Shadow take off his Inhibitors.

what do you mean it wasn't????

Amy's character being Sonic-centric is automatically painted as something terrible and some horrible dated stereotype of women. That is Flynn who popularized that notion, so it's obvious he doesn't understand her character.

oh yeah you are right...except maybe...i don't know the zetis?

The conception of the Deadly Six was bad in itself, so that doesn't even help your argument.

what

Ian made it worse

 

[Alexander]

Flynn didn’t self create these stories. Stop this misinformation. The higher ups at Sega and Sonic Team wrote the story, they simply told him to write the script. But the story itself was penned by others. Hence why Shadow acts differently in the actual games compared to the comics.

Wild that for all the shit the “mandates” get, they are unironically what prevented IDW shadow from leaking into the games.

this means he wrote them...thats funny

 

[Theuser789]

they didn't

No shit. It's a hypothetical. I'm not going to respond if you can't understand the concept of hypothetical and exaggerations.

You act like merging the worlds would completely take away everything that makes Blaze special as a character, when it would just make all of her personal story stuff infinitely easier to work with than it is right now.

Like, her being from another dimension is not a good thing, If Sega don't write stories about that, or explore the concepts a little more often.

Yes, it would take away a huge chunk of Blaze's unique traits. We already have princess and characters that use fire.

Sega does write about it. Read Sonic and Blaze's 2021 Sonic Channel story first before saying anything.

 

[Alexander]

I'm not dropping everything to look for it right now. I'm not your slave.

you are right, because i don't own anything to anyone...or for myself more than my live...actually not even my live.

It has the potential for far more as a dimensionally separated kingdom than as "just another kingdom"

How so? They literally don't allow him to explore anything in the kingdom, that's the problem.

He thinks the Sonic World being able to use spaceships for distances beyond the solar system is stupid

you are still not explaining why did he said that, if he just says it is stupid, then it is not enough.

This Amy is bad because it entirely misrepresents what Amy stood for, there's a reason many held Amy as the weakest character in Frontiers.

when was she the weakest character in frontiers?she seems pretty equal to the others in that game, also the same game has her saying that she wants to spread the love to the world (like how she always wanted to do?)

Because it's really that bad. Thank God Sega didn't let Ian have Shadow take off his Inhibitors.

why is that a bad thing?SHADOW HAS NOT USED THOSE SINCE 06 (so never basically)

Amy's character being Sonic-centric is automatically painted as something terrible and some horrible dated stereotype of women. That is Flynn who popularized that.

i am 99%sure people already said it was terrible way before Flynn.
The problem isn't that she loves Sonic, the problem is when that's the most remarkable thing about her as a character and everything else is overshadowed.

The conception of the Deadly Six was bad in itself, so that doesn't even help your argument.

you got my point

Ian made it worse

yeah we are ignoring the other writers....right?

 

[Alexander]

Yes, it would take away a huge chunk of Blaze's unique traits. We already have princess and characters that use fire.

do you mean...one, not a huge chunk.
oh yeah princess elise...who does nothing at all...and also man, there is many characters who use fire in this franchise (MAN IFRIT exists)

Sega does write about it. Read Sonic and Blaze's 2021 Sonic Channel story first before saying anything.

make it more significant, making it just a story to read and not to see, it is not the best way (yes the sonic channel stories are fine, but man they are not that significant if you can't see them, or experience them)

 

[JED]

this means he wrote them...thats funny

So you’re just being intentionally disingenuous and lying now?

Then again, you are the same guy who said that it being a comic doesn’t mean it should be faithful to the character, so your opinion is invalid anyways.

 

[Alexander]

Then again, you are the same guy who said that it being a comic doesn’t mean it should be faithful to the character, so your opinion is invalid anyways.

stop taking me out of context, i just said that giving long speechs in text bubbles is not a problem

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yes, it would take away a huge chunk of Blaze's unique traits. We already have princess and characters that use fire.

Her character don't exactly benefit from being in another dimension trought.
Like, If Blaze was just a princess from the other side of the planet that Sonic lives, instead of a Princess from another dimension It would't change her character, it would make more easier to write story with her, without needing to justify her precense all the time.

Sega does write about it. Read Sonic and Blaze's 2021 Sonic Channel story first before saying anything.

I read that already, my opinion doesn't change.

 

[ShakeResounding]

you are right, because i don't own anything to anyone...or for myself more than my live...actually not even my live.

How so? They literally don't allow him to explore anything in the kingdom, that's the problem.

Because then both Blaze and it lose an integral part of their identity, which is why I assume they aren't too keen on it.

Sega needs the confidence to do anything there in the first place, which they don't have yet, so there's no purpose to rushing in and having it be a trainwreck to mock.

you are still not explaining why did he said that, if he just says it is stupid, then it is not enough.

I don't have to explain why your overlord said anything, you do. Because yes, I'm claiming it's stupid for Ian to think that.

when was she the weakest character in frontiers?she seems pretty equal to the others in that game, also the same game has her saying that she wants to spread the love to the world (like how she always wanted to do?)

In community reception. Her goal is completely hamfisted, she has never "always wanted" to do that. Literally ever, until Ian had a say.

why is that a bad thing?SHADOW HAS NOT USED THOSE SINCE 06 (so never basically)

Because it makes Shadow look like an even bigger fool than he already was.

i am 99%sure people already said it was terrible way before Flynn.
The problem isn't that she loves Sonic, the problem is when that's the most remarkable thing about her as a character and everything else is overshadowed.

They did, that wasn't my point though. And Flynn isn't really doing her many favors when it comes to not being overshadowed and unremarkable.

yeah we are ignoring the other writers....right?

Oh don't worry, Evan and Christopher have their issues too.

 

[Theuser789]

Her character don't exactly benefit from being in another dimension trought.
Like, If Blaze was just a princess from the other side of the planet that Sonic lives, instead of a Princess from another dimension It would't change her character, it would make more easier to write story with her, without needing to justify her precense all the time.

You can say that to every character that isn't Tails and Amy. Every character is bound to something or another and that's part of the charm of the Sonic series.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Archie Sonic Cosmology Blog

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

Opinion?