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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

Everyone knowledgeable agrees that if anything should be non-canon, it would be Masters EX. Mainline Games are the primary canon, if you conflict with them, you don't, because the mainline games go above Masters EX in canonicity, what the mainline do is above what anything else does.

It doesn't matter what ya like or dislike, Mainline goes above everything else, end of story, close the book.
 
Either way, can we change Maylene stamina to like, something valid? Or at least change the reasoning?
Peak Human idk

Just so it doesn’t become a trend
 
You’re doing it on purpose lmao.

Yeah, I am lmfao. Idk how old you are but sounds to me like you’ve never got anything to do other than vs battles wiki powerscaling

Maylene scaling above Giratina? 💀 glazing way too hard, shoulda just sent her to fight on the Distortion world
If people genuinely agree with this just because she has a post game fight that we don’t canonically know how difficult it is for the main character, then that’s just sad.
But yeah you aren’t improving the verse with that since that implies the verse is lacking in pages or smthn (You haven’t even chosen a relevant character like Nemona or Volo lmao)

No one else here agrees with you about Masters Ex scaling, but yeah totally my rules.
I'm 23. I'm in college. VS scaling is more important.

...Do you know what postgame fights are? Besides, even if she's capable of fainting one of Dawn's main Pokemon she should scale to that level, especially since Giratina and especially Dialga/Palkia are MAGNITUDES higher than baseline Multiversal. Also neither of those characters are relevant. Nemona's a cringy nobody yandere who gets to Island at best and Volo's an F tier villain who's just a worse Rei.

Pretty much everyone does.
 
Everyone knowledgeable agrees that if anything should be non-canon, it would be Masters EX. Mainline Games are the primary canon, if you conflict with them, you don't, because the mainline games go above Masters EX in canonicity, what the mainline do is above what anything else does.

It doesn't matter what ya like or dislike, Mainline goes above everything else, end of story, close the book.
That stopped being the case during the Switch era.
 
I'm 23. I'm in college. VS scaling is more important.
💀
...Do you know what postgame fights are? Besides, even if she's capable of fainting one of Dawn's main Pokemon she should scale to that level, especially since Giratina and especially Dialga/Palkia are MAGNITUDES higher than baseline Multiversal. Also neither of those characters are relevant. Nemona's a cringy nobody yandere who gets to Island at best and Volo's an F tier villain who's just a worse Rei.
Nothing proves she’s capable of that regardless, and dawns Pokémon only get to that in your hypothetical scaling via Giratina and the creation trio. Makes no sense otherwise why everyone can suddenly surpass that level of power just by being postgame based on a game mechanic levelling system

No proof whatsoever Dawn struggles against her
Pretty much everyone does.
Delusional and you’re vandalising the wiki with it so idk
 
Pretty much everyone does.
So @Bobsican does, right? How about @Arceus0x? or @StrymULTRA?

You claim you have so much support for this, so why doesn't any of it speak out for you?
That stopped being the case during the Switch era.
Invalid option, just because YOU do not like the games, does not make them anything but primary canon. I ******* hate Shadowlands but it's still canon, and about half The End Times from Warhammer Fantasy can go to hell, but it is still canon.

If you want EX to be the canon aftermath to the main stories of the games, I don't care, just remember that contradicting a mainline game on literally anything is pretty much going to get that section put down like a sick sled dog.
 
Nothing proves she’s capable of that regardless, and dawns Pokémon only get to that in your hypothetical scaling via Giratina and the creation trio. Makes no sense otherwise why everyone can suddenly surpass that level of power just by being postgame based on a game mechanic levelling system

No proof whatsoever Dawn struggles against her
Dawn literally has to fight Giratina and either faint him or catch him to leave the Distortion World.

Are you listening to me at all?
Delusional and you’re vandalising the wiki with it so idk
Lying to the mods to get profiles deleted under false pretenses sounds a lot more like vandalism to me.
 
Dawn literally has to fight Giratina and either faint him or catch him to leave the Distortion World.
Where’s the proof Maylene scales to her? Nothing is saying Dawn struggled against her canonically. I remember easily being able to farm the trainers in that battle place
Are you listening to me at all?
No I’m not, you’ve proven and admitted you don’t care about genuine scaling and are based around favouritism
Lying to the mods to get profiles deleted under false pretenses sounds a lot more like vandalism to me.
Yet they agreed damn
 
Where’s the proof Maylene scales to her? Nothing is saying Dawn struggled against her canonically. I remember easily being able to farm the trainers in that battle place
Damn you're right, I guess Dawn just oneshotted every trainer she ever faced after she fought Giratina. Damn I can't believe that she could sweep the team of Post-Stark Mountain Cynthia because of how strong she is.
No I’m not, you’ve proven and admitted you don’t care about genuine scaling and are based around favouritism
He says, as I show objective facts and he ignores them because he's mad.
Yet they agreed damn
...Did you miss the part where you lied?
 
In fact, let me ask you one big question: How many major profiles have you made? Ones that take at least 8 hours worth of content to go through in order to make it?

Me? I'm sitting at 28 and probably missed a few. Most of my major profiles are hailed as at least good and high quality: Hearthstone, God of War, DK, etc.

Has anyone ever gone to your damn wall, and said a profile you made some weeks before was a masterpiece without said person even being informed it was made?
 
Damn you're right, I guess Dawn just oneshotted every trainer she ever faced after she fought Giratina. Damn I can't believe that she could sweep the team of Post-Stark Mountain Cynthia because of how strong she is.
Well you haven’t got any proof otherwise. You’re actively just using your favouritism, otherwise you’re basing it off assumptions. It’s not like you’re required in-story to rematch Maylene either

This is the issue with trying to scale Pokemon based on game levels as opposed to the actual story and lore lol. No, Maylene has nothing saying she’s up to Giratina level
He says, as I show objective facts and he ignores them because he's mad.
You haven’t shown anything lmao what?
...Did you miss the part where you lied?
Funny how your profiles still got deleted then idk
 
In fact, let me ask you one big question: How many major profiles have you made? Ones that take at least 8 hours worth of content to go through in order to make it?

Me? I'm sitting at 28 and probably missed a few. Most of my major profiles are hailed as at least good and high quality: Hearthstone, God of War, DK, etc.

Has anyone ever gone to your damn wall, and said a profile you made some weeks before was a masterpiece without said person even being informed it was made?
My profiles aren't really mentioned either way, other than him seething about Masters, but I do get some "Holy shit this is expansive" comments once in a while. Calem and Gloria were honestly my biggest profiles yet.
 
Well you haven’t got any proof otherwise. You’re actively just using your favouritism, otherwise you’re basing it off assumptions. It’s not like you’re required in-story to rematch Maylene either

This is the issue with trying to scale Pokemon based on game levels as opposed to the actual story and lore lol. No, Maylene has nothing saying she’s up to Giratina level
...You weren't supposed to agree with me LMFAOOO
You haven’t shown anything lmao what?
I did, you ignored everything.
Funny how your profiles still got deleted then idk
...Yes... because you lied...
 
You're both *****, I have no preference so leave me mostly out of the drama bits!
I’m not talking to you
I’m not talking about you
You are inserting yourself in everything Lmfao
In an attempt to actively try and cause drama

Wish there was a block button deadass
 
So @Bobsican does, right? How about @Arceus0x? or @StrymULTRA?

You claim you have so much support for this, so why doesn't any of it speak out for you?
This is all over the place and clearly going nowhere, which is why I refrain from indulging on unecessary toxicity, with no CRT to back up the claims what @Jinx666 says holds no weight.
 
Literally just trying to scale any and every single NPC you can have a rematch with once the game is over, with no basis on whether or not they’re ACTUALLY a challenge and difficult to beat.

Like it contradicts the entire threat of Giratina in itself if literally anyone else with whatever Pokémon can ‘harm’ it on a game level based system. That’s let alone the fact if the protag has any canon showing of using Giratina to fight some rando (meaning they scale for some reason?)
 
This is all over the place and clearly going nowhere, which is why I refrain from indulging on unecessary toxicity, with no CRT to back up the claims what @Jinx666 says holds no weight.
You literally are actively lying about what I’m saying what?

This isn’t about the bad scaling stuff I don’t agree with, YOU decided to bring that up, this is about Masters EX being used yet again to scale on mainline profiles
 
This is all over the place and clearly going nowhere, which is why I refrain from indulging on unecessary toxicity, with no CRT to back up the claims what @Jinx666 says holds no weight.
Thank you for the input, and I'd certainly agree on trainer scaling, Masters EX is only a point of contention for me on the profiles because it's being treated as more canon than the mainline games(Being able to decanonize parts of them), if it wasn't, I think it should be in it's own profile but I wouldn't give enough of a damn to change it if it was just a key.
 
Literally just trying to scale any and every single NPC you can have a rematch with once the game is over, with no basis on whether or not they’re ACTUALLY a challenge and difficult to beat.
If it's not portrayed as an extremely one sided battle it's fair game, I'd think, it's not like they're designed around being one-shot like Goombas in Mario.

Like it contradicts the entire threat of Giratina in itself if literally anyone else with whatever Pokémon can ‘harm’ it on a game level based system. That’s let alone the fact if the protag has any canon showing of using Giratina to fight some rando (meaning they scale for some reason?)
As far trained Pokemon go it's fair game, as they can reach levels quite above wild ones as I've shown you before with the Caterpie and Bidoof incidents.

You literally are actively lying about what I’m saying what?

This isn’t about the bad scaling stuff I don’t agree with, YOU decided to bring that up, this is about Masters EX being used yet again to scale on mainline profiles
Oh sorry, I mixed things up a bit, Masters EX seems to be controversial and trainer profiles should be put on hold until a CRT is done, especially as it seems you're gatekeeping any that includes Masters EX stuff.
 
Thank you for the input, and I'd certainly agree on trainer scaling, Masters EX is only a point of contention for me on the profiles because it's being treated as more canon than the mainline games(Being able to decanonize parts of them), if it wasn't, I think it should be in it's own profile but I wouldn't give enough of a damn to change it if it was just a key.
You literally just inserted yourself in this without knowing a single thing about Pokémon or engaging until you thought it would annoy me 😭
 
If it's not portrayed as an extremely one sided battle it's fair game, I'd think, it's not like they're designed around being one-shot like Goombas in Mario.
It’s not portrayed as anything regardless. It’s a player battle that YOU (the player) fight in, not a canon character.

They give Giratina more of an actual portrayal as a serious Universe-resetting threat than they do the post game Maylene fight.

You can easily one shot ALL of Maylenes Pokémon, just as easily as you can choose to LET her beat you by using a team of 6 Magikarp that only know splashSo what’s the canon approach here (there isn’t one)?

This is why people differentiate game mechanics from what the verse actually wants to portray. There’s no issue scaling a character who HAS to defeat/catch Giratina to progress the story, but when it comes to scaling Gym Leader level trainers to the Box legendary just based on game levels is insane
As far trained Pokemon go it's fair game, as they can reach levels quite above wild ones as I've shown you before with the Caterpie and Bidoof incident.
You haven’t shown me whatsoever. You explained abt it and just acted like it was true because you’re deciding to treat every composite thing someone can do playing Pokémon as real. There’s NO example of a caterpie or bidoof actually being scaleable, and anyone off this site would think you’re crazy if you think it can scale
Oh sorry, I mixed things up a bit, Masters EX seems to be controversial and trainer profiles should be put on hold until a CRT is done, especially as it seems you're gatekeeping any that includes Masters EX stuff.
Okay then stop lying about what I’m saying??? You’ve done this twice now. You brought up that stuff, not me and then acted like I’m using it to stir

Instead you’re just enabling this Super guy to make up whatever scaling he wants
 
So like, are you proposing we abolish all scaling in RPGs since one can just grind enough to one-shot the bosses, or?
Well you’re strawmanning since I don’t know all other RPGS or how they handle scaling

But yeah, game mechanics tend to be something you consider when scaling characters by lore. Just because a rando can deal 1HP damage by game choice to the Omniversal final boss of the game by sheerly the game coding, doesn’t mean it scales.

You should always consider the actual story progress of the game and what canonically happens for the game to progress opposed to just handing out Tier 2 to whatever comes after your fight with Giratina. Otherwise, why aren’t all the Wild Tentacool you come across not Tier 2

Pokémon works differently to most RPGs since it’s battle system revolves around using a team of Pokémon to fight, as opposed to you, the player, playing as a character that partakes in the battle themself
 
I no longer recognize your opinions as valid and you have made your stance against me clear. And that isn't even as big as my profiles...
111K bytes says otherwise, Your Gloria sandbox? Only 57K bytes. Damn big to be sure, not the biggest. Eltharion only isn't mentioned here because his actual profile is around 30K bytes while the rest is copy/pasted lores of magic.
You literally just inserted yourself in this without knowing a single thing about Pokémon or engaging until you thought it would annoy me 😭
I follow the mainline games via watching them, played Masters and Go a bit, enjoyed the shit out of whatever the Pokémon camera game was called, and don't really care about anything else. I am definitely a casual lol
 
I follow the mainline games via watching them, played Masters and Go a bit, enjoyed the shit out of whatever the Pokémon camera game was called, and don't really care about anything else. I am definitely a casual lol
I didn’t ask and I don’t care.

You followed me here to derail about Overwatch stuff for attention, like what you do on this forum as a whole, and now you’re staying to insert yourself into the conversation 😭 you don’t get props to hide that just because you know what a Pikachu is idk.

literal main character syndrome
 
It’s not portrayed as anything regardless. It’s a player battle that YOU (the player) fight in, not a canon character.

They give Giratina more of an actual portrayal as a serious Universe-resetting threat than they do the post game Maylene fight.

You can easily one shot ALL of Maylenes Pokémon, just as easily as you can choose to LET her beat you by using a team of 6 Magikarp that only know splashSo what’s the canon approach here (there isn’t one)?
All that win as it's expected for the character to progress, rather than being stuck on them like those VNs with bad endings for every little thing, merely scaling is fair game as otherwise they'd be unable to present any challenge whatsoever with the basic tier 2 scaling, especially if that's done multiple times after dealing with the legendaries as then the outlier argument doesn't hold up out of the sheer consistency.

This is why people differentiate game mechanics from what the verse actually wants to portray. There’s no issue scaling a character who HAS to defeat/catch Giratina to progress the story, but when it comes to scaling Gym Leader level trainers to the Box legendary just based on game levels is insane
I'd avoid using in-game levels, when they're fought relative to general progress should be more of a factor.

You haven’t shown me whatsoever. You explained abt it and just acted like it was true because you’re deciding to treat every composite thing someone can do playing Pokémon as real. There’s NO example of a caterpie or bidoof actually being scaleable, and anyone off this site would think you’re crazy if you think it can scale
I have, a trained Caterpie and Bidoof have been stated/shown to have been able to take on the Pokemon League.

Okay then stop lying about what I’m saying??? You’ve done this twice now. You brought up that stuff, not me and then acted like I’m using it to stir

Instead you’re just enabling this Super guy to make up whatever scaling he wants
@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera Please make a CRT on how to handle Masters and trainer profiles in general before pushing for them further.
 
All that win as it's expected for the character to progress, rather than being stuck on them like those VNs with bad endings for every little thing, merely scaling is fair game as otherwise they'd be unable to present any challenge whatsoever with the basic tier 2 scaling, especially if that's done multiple times after dealing with the legendaries as then the outlier argument doesn't hold up out of the sheer consistency.
Theres nothing saying they present a challenge in actual story. There’s ways t sweep them, there’s was to auto lose to them. You’re only conveniently using the latter to let literally anybody scale to Tier 2.

Do Mars and Jupiter scale past Giratina just because there’s a fight with them in the Heatran story? Or the random galactic grunts they bring?

If there’s nothing saying that the trainers are exceptionally hard, then no it shouldn’t be okay
I'd avoid using in-game levels, when they're dought relative to general progress should be more of a factor.
Yet you’re using that exact thing to try and scale anyone who the player ‘fights’ past the Giratina interaction as Tier 2 based on them being made higher levels than it (based on in game levels to reflect this)

In context, it doesn’t make sense for any gym leader to be comparable to the main legendary threat of the game just because you can choose to rematch them. I’m guessing any trainer who you can use the VS Seeker with applies too?
I have, a trained Caterpie and Bidoof have been stated/shown to have been able to take on the Pokemon League.
This is just a link to your post prior??? It shows nothing

And this is again literally player choice grind levelling that has no weight on actual lore context or story. You’re just compositing every little thing you can choose to do as a trainer? Like?
@Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera Please make a CRT on how to handle Masters and trainer profiles in general before pushing for them further.
Cool but he’s not gonna listen cause he keeps making them.
 
Can a question be considered a strawman in the first place?
But yeah, game mechanics tend to be something you consider when scaling characters by lore. Just because a rando can deal 1HP damage by game choice to the Omniversal final boss of the game by sheerly the game coding, doesn’t mean it scales.
The game mechanics and lore point doesn’t really apply well here tho. Pokemon, by its nature, is a setting where the power ceiling is inherently fluid and constantly grows. This isn't a even setting type that's limited to RPGs either, basically every Shonen is like this.

In, for example, Dragon Ball right now we have random dime-a-dozen animals that can stomp Frieza.
Frieza, who throughout an entire arc, was hyped up as "the strongest in the universe" and that nothing could come close to even his suppressed forms.
But peeps just kept getting stronger and stronger, and suddenly that once unbeatable threat became pretty trivial, ya know.
You should always consider the actual story progress of the game and what canonically happens for the game to progress opposed to just handing out Tier 2 to whatever comes after your fight with Giratina. Otherwise, why aren’t all the Wild Tentacool you come across not Tier 2
Maylene is designed as a post-game boss. You’re meant to face her after having progressed through the main story, beaten BOTH the legendary and the Champion. A Wild Tentacool can show up at any point in the game. So while like yeah, you can one-shot her, just like you can one-shot anything in Pokemon, that doesn't diminish the fact that she’s meant to be an end-game challenge, whereas Tentacool is not.
 
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I didn’t ask and I don’t care.

You followed me here to derail about Overwatch stuff for attention, like what you do on this forum as a whole, and now you’re staying to insert yourself into the conversation 😭 you don’t get props to hide that just because you know what a Pikachu is idk.

literal main character syndrome
I poke at Overwatch once and now it's harassment that I'm targeting you for. I agree Masters EX is either not canon or at minimum shouldn't be on mainline profiles, and disagree with how you treat trainer scaling, though it's shaky ground no matter what you do with it.

Coming here was to follow the drama, which is still ongoing, it does not mean I will never have my own thoughts on the matter I feel the need to share. You can just say flatly ya don't like me you know, no need for the mental gymnastics that you're a target any more then ol' @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera is, especially when he's annoyed me more lol
 
Like it just makes NO sense why this is how we choose to scale Pokémon??? (Other than people just want to give the verse Tier 2 as an average to boost its strength as a whole which is disingenuous)

There’s no issue saying the Player can be Tier 2 since they actually FIGHT the thing that’s makes them tier 2. Elite Four and Cynthia, and your rival ig Sure, since they actually hold a power position. But when you’re giving it to trainers on an actively lower position than them based on optional stuff and accepting they scale HIGHER than Giratina is insane.

Heck, there’s a lot of scrutiny too. You can argue that the player merely used a Master Ball and that’s how they ‘defeated Giratina’ (given master ball is always given to you before legendary encounters, it’s a common trend that implies this is how those legendaries get caught).

Treating every possible iteration you can choose to do as the player as canon (Compositing basically which isn’t what this wiki does), and using that as a means to say literally any trainer fight the player has the option to lose to, and therefore it scales to the Tier 2 is just so disingenuous
 
Can a question be considered a strawman in the first place?
Yes, since you’re implying I’m saying to change ALL RPG scalings when that’s not the case
The game mechanics and lore point doesn’t really apply well here tho. Pokemon, by its nature, is a setting where the power scaling is inherently fluid and constantly grows. The power ceiling just keeps growing and growing. This isn't a even setting type that's limited to RPGs either, basically every Shonen is like this.
It’s not fluid, it’s a nightmare to powerscale tbh.
The power ceiling is based on levelling which is game mechanics, but using this to diminish how Giratina gets powercrept by your average Victory Road pleb, just to give them Tier 2 for the glaze is disingenuous. Is Giratina just a fodder then or is it the literal version of Pokémon Satan in lore still?
Like for example, in Dragon Ball right now we have random dime-a-dozen animals that can stomp Frieza.
Frieza, who throughout an entire arc, was hyped up as "the strongest in the universe" and that nothing could come close to his even suppressed forms.
But peeps just kept getting stronger and stronger, and suddenly that once unbeatable threat became pretty trivial, ya know.
DBZ anime scaling and using RPGs and game mechanics to scale is innately different genres and ballparks. We do NOT follow the same rules as DBZ
Maylene is designed as a post-game boss. You’re meant to face her after having progressed through the main story, beaten BOTH the legendary and the Champion. A Wild Tentacool can show up at any point in the game. So while like yeah, you can one-shot her, just like you can one-shot anything in Pokemon, that doesn't diminish the fact that she’s meant to be an end-game challenge, whereas Tentacool is not.
She isn’t designed as a boss whatsoever other than her gym leader battle. She’s an optional rematch you can take.
Being a ‘boss’ doesn’t always mean you’re stronger than the prior boss when it comes to the actual lore scaling. You’re just choosing to use in game levels and assuming (based on nothing) that Maylene canonically cause the trainer trouble or took out one of their tier 2 Pokémon. None of that is true. Y’all are merely going for the most convenient option that lets you scale Maylene above Giratina without considering literally everything else wrong with that

Which believe it or not, makes even bigger of a mess than what we’re trying to avoid. But it’s all for the sake of making the average Pokémon stat line Tier 2 as a verse, and because Pokémon is too much of a headache to fix properly so instead people just want to give everything tier 2 and would most definitely scale to Arceus
 
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I poke at Overwatch once and now it's harassment that I'm targeting you for. I agree Masters EX is either not canon or at minimum shouldn't be on mainline profiles, and disagree with how you treat trainer scaling, though it's shaky ground no matter what you do with it.
You’ve literally followed me into this thread, constantly tried putting your two cents and derailing about irrelevant shit like Overwatch, and won’t atop sitting here inserting yourself into the convo about a verse you didn’t give af about till you thought it would annoy me

so yeah, I’m gonna assume you don’t know when to leave someone alone. You also just troll on purpose so yh I’ll happily call that a red flag and harassment
Coming here was to follow the drama, which is still ongoing, it does not mean I will never have my own thoughts on the matter I feel the need to share. You can just say flatly ya don't like me you know, no need for the mental gymnastics that you're a target any more then ol' @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera is, especially when he's annoyed me more lol
you deadass just think you’re some anime villain or smthn 😭 tryna goad me into something bannable and ragebait
You’re just ******* creepy atp dude,
 
If that’s not enough, the Galaxy Team page is ALSO using Masters EX to say that Rei and Akari were transported to the mainline games 😭 and then using Masters EX as evidence for that

Like can we do smthn abt this plz
 
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