Madness Combat: Low 1-C upgrade (Plus other stuff)

[Comiphorous]

That is the issue. 1-A characters must be unaffected and unreachable and irreducible to anything lower than itself. No additive process must be able to reach it's Tier. So Machine being able to drag it down to it's creation is a clear cut anti-feat/disqualifier.

The Machine was previously lower than The Maker. The Machine simply got more powerful and began seeing Madness Combat as fiction, and began writing it's own stories instead of having The Maker doing it, now seeing MC as fiction as well. The Maker to lost control over The Machine without getting himself encompassed into it due to it's increase of power.

there is no dragging The Maker down from it's current power, it's a threat of The Machine, his creation, growing as powerful than the creator.

 

[Da3ggman]

The Machine was previously lower than The Maker. The Machine simply got more powerful and began seeing Madness Combat as fiction, and began writing it's own stories instead of having The Maker doing it, now seeing MC as fiction as well. The Maker to lost control over The Machine without getting himself encompassed into it due to it's increase of power.

there is no dragging The Maker down from it's current power, it's a threat of The Machine, his creation, growing as powerful than the creator.

How did The Machine increase its power? If it did it by itself, then yeah, it’d humongous anti-feat for 1-A Maker.

 

[Comiphorous]

How did The Machine increase its power? If it did it by itself, then yeah, it’d humongous anti-feat for 1-A Maker.

The Maker withholds a lot of information on purpose to the player for unknown reasons, and therefore have no idea how it was able to potentially encompass The Maker themself when The Maker was previously fine controlling it without it being able to interact with them.

We (which means me) have begun a cosmology blog to write down literally everything the series gives us regarding these characters, to potentially figure out what the hell this mess means.

 

[Alexander]

ok i AGREE

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The Maker withholds a lot of information on purpose to the player for unknown reasons, and therefore have no idea how it was able to potentially encompass The Maker themself when The Maker was previously fine controlling it without it being able to interact with them.

Yeah this sounds pretty bleak. With no explanation as to how the Machine could overturn the Maker then 1-A can't work here.

 

[Comiphorous]

Alright. Since the god-tier stuff is a little messy and will take time, im going to remove Auditor's true form key off of the blog, and i will handle the god tiers like him at a later date when things like the cosmology blog is finished, since clearly i, nor the other supporters have truly firm grasp over whats going on with them.

Until then, we'll have an up-to-date auditor page and up to date physiology page.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Alight. I agree with 1-A Maker.

Why is that 1-A?

 

[Comiphorous]

Why is that 1-A?

Ignoring that one anti-feat which may or may not be explained that would let him actually have that rating, he's above the Madness Combat universe, writes it's story, and sees it as fiction.

thats it.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Alright. Since the god-tier stuff is a little messy and will take time, im going to remove Auditor's true form key off of the blog, and i will handle the god tiers like him at a later date when things like the cosmology blog is finished, since clearly i, nor the other supporters have truly firm grasp over whats going on with them.

Until then, we'll have an up-to-date auditor page and up to date physiology page.

Didn't you have a 2-C tier that's currently on Gestalt's profile whose justification involves some scaling to the Auditor's true form?

 

[Reiner04]

Why is that 1-A?

It would have been but we got anti feat. So nope.

 

[Comiphorous]

Didn't you have a 2-C tier that's currently on Gestalt's profile whose justification involves some scaling to the Auditor's true form?

Most of the links are gone (for some reason???) on Gestalt's page regarding his 2-C rating, so i'd have to figure out what i was smoking when i put him at that level. even that needs some work though. Pretty there can be an argument made for like 2-B due to The Arena Mode Player and such, but again i'll have to rework all that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I am not sure if I should see this scan as implication of Qualitative superiority or just God lvl within-verse reality warping. I'll tag some staffs to make sure.

There's a superiority present between the story and reality, but it's not Qualitative Superiority, as in the reality is fictional to the story that QS requires.

The Machine itself is basically the largest anti-feat. It being able to change the story and touch the authors itself means there isn't a fictional-real gap between them as much as one is just operating on a higher scale than the other normally.

Its a 1D+ upgrade I guess, but I don't see this as 1-A.

 

[Comiphorous]

There's a superiority present between the story and reality, but it's not Qualitative Superiority, as in the reality is fictional to the story that QS requires.

The Machine itself is basically the largest anti-feat. It being able to change the story and touch the authors itself means there isn't a fictional-real gap between them as much as one is just operating on a higher scale than the other normally.

Its a 1D+ upgrade I guess, but I don't see this as 1-A.

I am right now working on a Cosmology Blog (very much far from being done but it's a start) to hopefully pin down where characters like The Maker, The Machine, and The Employers scale.

I am still expecting some sort of Tier 1 shenanigans somewhere, but not 100% sure.

 

[Comiphorous]

Bump. I've redone the tiering for The Auditor's final key (finally, hopefully being more concrete), and i redid the physiology page again due to a mass of missing info.

I believe The Auditor may have solid scaling to Low 1-C. scans are already on the blog post and ready to read.

I also believe 1-A is still possible for both The Maker and The Machine. my previous arguments made made sense at the time, but I believe i interpreted the dialogue of The Maker and several other sections of the game incorrectly regarding the siblings.


here is what i believe what is actually going on between the two;

Both The Maker and The Machine see the madness combat world as fiction, capable of writing stories and the overall timeline of the series and neither can be interacted with at all by the people within them. (nobody in the series can even grasp what The Machine even is, and the ones who do know what it is barely understand on a surface level on what it is) Both The Maker and The Machine exists above of the Madness Combat universe, but The Machine simply cannot perceive things that are outside of what it defines, which is simply the entirety of Madness Combat. (The Maker stated that The Machine cannot define itself, ie, it can't see more than what it already is)

Due to the fact both The Machine and The Maker are above it, The Machine cannot see The Maker and therefore cannot composite The Maker into itself. This is why the maker states he cannot control the machine and it would be paradoxical for him to try. He cannot stay unseen from The Machine but also write the story of Madness Combat at the same time, because then he'd be able to be seen by The Machine because every story is a cog within the machine, and he'd get pulled into his own creation. The Machine didn't exist below it's creator, it existed on the same plane of existence and simply has a blaring weakness regarding what it's capable of percieving.

I'm not sure if this really clears up the problem regarding The Maker's and The Machine's 1-A scaling, but i believe it's still good to bring up to see what you mods think.

 

[Reiner04]

Bump. I've redone the tiering for The Auditor's final key (finally, hopefully being more concrete), and i redid the physiology page again due to a mass of missing info.

I believe The Auditor may have solid scaling to Low 1-C. scans are already on the blog post and ready to read.

I believe low 1-C should be fine.

 

[Comiphorous]

I believe low 1-C should be fine.

Alright. Thats probably the safest option for The Employers due to their vagueness in everything they do.

considering this CRT doesn't exactly regard The Maker and The Machine, it might be better to put off the 1-A stuff and handle it on it's own CRT when pages for The Maker and The Machine come to being made.

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Does this qualify the Machine for low 1-A?

 

[Alexander]

Does this qualify the Machine for low 1-A?

ok you will need more than that, also where is the source?

 

[Doorthatcloses]

ok you will need more than that, also where is the source?

DIscord, someone asked him about it. It's actually months old

 

[Comiphorous]

Does this qualify the Machine for low 1-A?

I'm not handling the 1-A scaling of the machine and the maker here. it can be handled later.

you can however shoot stuff over in the discussion thread just so this thread doesn't get clogged up and we have it for future reference.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Does this qualify the Machine for low 1-A?

Seems like a leading question, so unusable.

 

[Doorthatcloses]

I'm not handling the 1-A scaling of the machine and the maker here. it can be handled later.

you can however shoot stuff over in the discussion thread just so this thread doesn't get clogged up and we have it for future reference.

Alright, just one more thing, you should add dissonance to Auditor's weaknesses, employers are stated to be weak to dissonance, also that they would be destroyed if they entered the other place. Mag Hank's electricity is also dissonance

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Seems like a leading question, so unusable.

Would it help if I could find the original question? It's a screenshot of a Dm, so I'll have to ask

 

[Comiphorous]

Alright, just one more thing, you should add dissonance to Auditor's weaknesses, employers are stated to be weak to dissonance, also that they would be destroyed if they entered the other place. Mag Hank's electricity is also dissonance

How can you say; "The Auditor is weak to dissonance and would DIE if he ever came in contact with The Other Place. also the thing he was punched in the face with like 40 times and tanked is in fact the energy he's weak to"

It's one way or the other, and frankly im taking feats from the series being fine with being exposed to it over wherever you got the idea he's weak to it. Him potentially dying by going to The Other Place isn't really a weakness to The Auditor, thats a feat of The Other Place.

 

[Doorthatcloses]

How can you say; "The Auditor is weak to dissonance and would DIE if he ever came in contact with The Other Place. also the thing he was punched in the face with like 40 times and tanked is in fact the energy he's weak to"

It's one way or the other, and frankly im taking feats from the series being fine with being exposed to it over wherever you got the idea he's weak to it. Him potentially dying by going to The Other Place isn't really a weakness to The Auditor, thats a feat of The Other Place.

It was stated by both Krinkels and Swain (mostly on discord and streams from what I've seen) that Dissonance is harmful to the employers, and the other place would dissolve them because of how much of it there is there. I don't have the screenshot right now but Swain also said that generation 1 Nevadeans would dissolve faster than other S-3LFs in the Other Place so that's importnant too.

If you don't want to go on discord there's This post on reddit where Swain says the Employers are "laughably weak" to dissonance and that they are made of "Machine matter". He also mentions in another comment the "Machine forms" of the employers, one of which appears in Arena Mode (Stygian). They also appear briefly in the post-credits scene of the game when Jebus meets them

 

[Comiphorous]

It was stated by both Krinkels and Swain (mostly on discord and streams from what I've seen) that Dissonance is harmful to the employers, and the other place would dissolve them because of how much of it there is there. I don't have the screenshot right now but Swain also said that generation 1 Nevadeans would dissolve faster than other S-3LFs in the Other Place so that's importnant too.

Both of those statements are contradicted by the animations and games. I'm not using either of those.

Maybe the other employers are weak to dissonance, but The Auditor has directly used it and can withstand Dissonance.

And Director Phobos (a Gen 01) can be within the other place for years without being dissolved. so maybe phobos is a special case, but that also doesn't line up with what they said. Unless The Other Place genuinely works that slowly, which in that case doesn't make any sense because the series has shown it doesn't take that long.


This is generally why i stay away from WoG statements for this series unless it's supported by things that are said or done in the games or animations. (Which by that point why use the WoG statement in the first place?)

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Both of those statements are contradicted by the animations and games. I'm not using either of those.

Maybe the other employers are weak to dissonance, but The Auditor has directly used it and can withstand Dissonance.

And Director Phobos (a Gen 01) can be within the other place for years without being dissolved. so maybe phobos is a special case, but that also doesn't line up with what they said. Unless The Other Place genuinely works that slowly, which in that case doesn't make any sense because the series has shown it doesn't take that long.

Phobos didn't go to the other place when he died, Swain said that he went into Gestalt (he also implied that Gestalt has a hell dimension too), basically he said that Gestalt "caught" Phobos' S3LF when he was killed by Jebus so he wouldn't go to the other place. I know it might not sound believable rn but I'll find the screenshot.

Also do you mean that Auditor used the Keystone Fragment? It is powered by dissonance by I don't think that means Auditor can "Use" it. The episode also says that it's incompatible or something. I don't think it removes his weakness

 

[Comiphorous]

Phobos didn't go to the other place when he died, Swain said that he went into Gestalt (he also implied that Gestalt has a hell dimension too), basically he said that Gestalt "caught" Phobos' S3LF when he was killed by Jebus so he wouldn't go to the other place. I know it might not sound believable rn but I'll find the screenshot.

You can't argue the creator's statement is reliable by bringing up another statement by the creators that contradict what we were directly shown on screen.

Phobos activated gestalt after his fight with Jesus which even then it doesn't begin collecting S-3LF until it's released years later when they try to shut down Project Nexus. Gestalt couldn't have been collecting S-3LF and being locked away in storage not doing anything at the same time, that again is the creators contradicting what they showed us in the series.

Also do you mean that Auditor used the Keystone Fragment? It is powered by dissonance by I don't think that means Auditor can "Use" it. The episode also says that it's incompatible or something. I don't think it removes his weakness

It's powered by the thing that apparently kills him. that mf can touch it and use it's power. He's using dissonance energy and is unaffected by it. He never had a weakness in the first place!

 

[Doorthatcloses]

You can't argue the creator's statement is reliable by bringing up another statement by the creators that contradict what we were directly shown on screen.

Phobos didn't activate Gestalt until after his fight with Jesus which even then it doesn't begin collecting S-3LF until it's released years later when they try to shut down Project Nexus. Gestalt couldn't have been collecting S-3LF and being locked away in storage not doing anything at the same time, that again is the creators contradicting what they showed us in the series.


It's powered by the thing that apparently kills him. that mf can touch it and use it's power. He's using dissonance energy and is unaffected by it. He never had a weakness in the first place!

Even so, I wouldn't disregard them completely since Project Nexus in general retconned a lot of stuff, even in its own story, after its release (for example hank & co being hired by the employers, which was later retconned to them being hired by doc, but you can still see an npc calling them Employer goons).

Still you are right it's really inconsistent, but I'd still recommend joining the Madness project nexus discord as some lore related info isn't contradicted by anything and could be useful especially for your cosmology blog, such as the Other Place being a protective layer that protects Nevada from the Infinitely Improbable

 

[Employe]

Being honest, dissonant is harmful to about anyone, so I don't see reasons to list it as a weakness

 

[Alexander]

Being honest, dissonant is harmful to about anyone, so I don't see reasons to list it as a weakness

if it's like listing a gun as a weakness for...EVERYONE?

 

[Employe]

Even so, I wouldn't disregard them completely since Project Nexus in general retconned a lot of stuff, even in its own story, after its release (for example hank & co being hired by the employers, which was later retconned to them being hired by doc, but you can still see an npc calling them Employer goons).

Still you are right it's really inconsistent, but I'd still recommend joining the Madness project nexus discord as some lore related info isn't contradicted by anything and could be useful especially for your cosmology blog, such as the Other Place being a protective layer that protects Nevada from the Infinitely Improbable

There is actually nothing to confirm that Hank and Co were hired by Employers, since it simply makes no sense and has no proof + That's just an opinion of a random MERC and logically how he could've been aware of it?

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Being honest, dissonant is harmful to about anyone, so I don't see reasons to list it as a weakness

That's true, but with employers, it seems to be the only way to damage them, while with other characters you can shoot them or stab them or something. That's why I considered it a weakness

 

[Comiphorous]

That's true, but with employers, it seems to be the only way to damage them, while with other characters you can shoot them or stab them or something. That's why I considered it a weakness

Yeah it's the only way to harm them if you ignore the other times The Auditor has been harmed.

His iconic scars on his back aren't even from dissonance, by the way.

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Yeah it's the only way to harm them if you ignore the other times The Auditor has been harmed.

His iconic scars on his back aren't even from dissonance, by the way.

What has Auditor been harmed by besides dissonance? Even if we assume Hank's electricity isn't dissonance even though it was probably retconned

 

[Comiphorous]

What has Auditor been harmed by besides dissonance? Even if we assume Hank's electricity isn't dissonance even though it was probably retconned

Tricky literally inverted The Auditor in on himself and gave him those scars on his back.

Tricky, would not have dissonance on him at that point of the story, and was just him being Tricky. You also can't just say "oh they retconned it" without any proof of that just to fit what you believe.

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Tricky literally inverted The Auditor in on himself and gave him those scars on his back.

Tricky, would not have dissonance on him at that point of the story, and was just him being Tricky.

How do we know Tricky wasn't dissonant anymore at that point? I find it hard to believe it would just disappear. Plus it would explain why Auditor was saying that his presence was damaging everything.

 

[Comiphorous]

How do we know Tricky wasn't dissonant anymore at that point? I find it hard to believe it would just disappear. Plus it would explain why Auditor was saying that his presence was damaging everything.

Lemme put it like this;

-Does not have the Improbability Drive in him, and was destroyed like 5 minutes prior

-Has presumably not used those dissonance vial things he used during the fall of Nexus Core in YEARS

why would we assume he still has Dissonance kicking around in him for years after several deaths and new bodies?

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

I agree

 

[Doorthatcloses]

Lemme put it like this;

-Does not have the Improbability Drive in him, and was destroyed like 5 minutes prior

-Has presumably not used those dissonance vial things he used during the fall of Nexus Core in YEARS

why would we assume he still has Dissonance kicking around in him for years after several deaths and new bodies?

In MC 9.5 he didn't have the improbability drive and was still doing crazy stuff, how did he do it without dissonance?