The 1-A Madness Combat Revision.

[Comiphorous]

Maybe read the actual page?


Notice how it doesn't say prove

that isn't what it says at all, lmao. that's saying super simple and vague proof can't be used for the entire scaling. as the quote you posted, it clearly states it just needs to be reasonably clear, which it is.

 

[Vesxpura]

You make up a good point but as I had brought up in another comment, Employers and Machine define core concepts and abstract things of reality and exist as independent concepts separate from Nevada
The machine even stated to be metaphysical while defining concepts like time and space, it should be enough support

What ur describing could be possessed by any higher dimensional character, while yes it might help support the claim, what u described doesnt necessitate 1A

 

[Vesxpura]

that isn't what it says at all, lmao. that's saying super simple and vague proof can't be used for the entire scaling. as the quote you posted, it clearly states it just needs to be reasonably clear, which it is.

Are you like struggling to read? the evidence you gave for R>F was literally one of the things that "directly implies" QS. Thats the whole point, it doesnt "prove" anything.
Also what? ur telling me that quote is not ambigious? yeah good one.

 

[Comiphorous]

Are you like struggling to read? the evidence you gave for R>F was literally one of the things that "directly implies" QS. Thats the whole point, it doesnt "prove" anything.
Also what? ur telling me that quote is not ambigious? yeah good one.

"Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself."

please read the pages you quote. dreams are a listed example of it. but no i wasn't trying to drag this entire thread to 12 pages about a character this CRT does not have any involvement to this thread which is why i didn't explain it further beyond that one feat, we're writing a cosmology blog which is why. once it is done, you can judge the entire thing instead of just a single feat for some reason.

 

[Vesxpura]

"Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself."

please read the pages you quote. dreams are a listed example of it. but no i wasn't trying to drag this entire thread to 12 pages about a character this CRT does not have any involvement to this thread which is why i didn't explain it further beyond that one feat, we're writing a cosmology blog which is why. once it is done, you can judge the entire thing instead of just a single feat for some reason.

thats exactly what im referring to omg, Like is reading the argument a massive problem for you guys? dreams imply QS (not that difficult to understand if you actually READ)

 

[CitRusReality64]

thats exactly what im referring to omg, Like is reading the argument a massive problem for you guys? dreams imply QS (not that difficult to understand if you actually READ)

there is a wog/twitch statement of the employers seeing nevada as a story to write

 

[Comiphorous]

thats exactly what im referring to omg, Like is reading the argument a massive problem for you guys? dreams imply QS (not that difficult to understand if you actually READ)

and what you're referring to makes no ******* sense. Qualitative superiority isn't supporting evidence, it's a whole genre of a type of feat in fiction. I don't know where you're getting your logic from but it makes zero sense. R>F transcendence is achieved through qualitative superiority feats. You can't just say "this is supporting evidence" to a feat to deny it's existence. They have more to their rating, you just can't see it right now because as i already told you were writing a cosmology blog and the character we're even talking about is not related to this CRT. so i'm going to ask you to stop derailing and be patient and maybe you'll figure out what you're missing.

 

[Comiphorous]

there is a wog/twitch statement of the employers seeing nevada as a story to write

wasn't that related to the machine though? think that adds a bit of a contradiction of the machine defining the employers in the first place. probably not a good WoG statement to use.

 

[CitRusReality64]

wasn't that related to the machine though? think that adds a bit of a contradiction of the machine defining the employers in the first place. probably not a good WoG statement to use.

No, he said specifically the Employers help the machine write the story

 

[Comiphorous]

No, he said specifically the Employers help the machine write the story

Still skeptical about that being a contradiction to what’s in game but whatever, suppose it’s not detrimental as far as I can tell.

 

[Vesxpura]

and what you're referring to makes no ******* sense. Qualitative superiority isn't supporting evidence, it's a whole genre of a type of feat in fiction. I don't know where you're getting your logic from but it makes zero sense. R>F transcendence is achieved through qualitative superiority feats. You can't just say "this is supporting evidence" to a feat to deny it's existence. They have more to their rating, you just can't see it right now because as i already told you were writing a cosmology blog and the character we're even talking about is not related to this CRT. so i'm going to ask you to stop derailing and be patient and maybe you'll figure out what you're missing.

Im not derailing anything, this is still on the topic of tier 1.

and fyi, u cant understand anything, but its fine i wont blame you since tier 1 and above is complicated. this is the last time im going to outline it. R>F transcendence only qualifies for 1A if the relationship is literal and is internally proven to be literal. Now moving on, The other part of the reference is talking about mediums like dreams and that they only IMPLY QS(1A). its pretty obvious you dont know what that entails, but in short it means "suggest". SO what that means is viewing something as a dream only SUGGESTS 1A until internally proven(the series supports the idea of irreducilibity). in conclusion, A reality - fiction relationship is supporting evidence for 1A or QS because theres nothing inherently 1A about r>f nor a reality-fiction relationship

This is like, really simple to follow. so please dont strawman me any further than you have been doing.

 

[ClashIReckon]

I agree with 1-A based on the overall analysis and information given within the thread

 

[CitRusReality64]

Still skeptical about that being a contradiction to what’s in game but whatever, suppose it’s not detrimental as far as I can tell.

I just realized something
The Auditor was the one who gave NEXUS Core The Machine's prime code. This gives us two predicaments;
Either you can use this as supportive evidence The Employers are 1-A along with viewing nevada as a dream, which means they R>F. They also Help The Machine write Nevada's story. This would mean they have the same range as The Machine, Help it, and have R>F, same as The Machine.

or, it could be an Anti-Feat for The Machine. However, considering the fact The Machine created the employers, I don't think it would be an anti-feat for 1-A R>F

 

[Comiphorous]

I just realized something
The Auditor was the one who gave NEXUS Core The Machine's prime code. This gives us two predicaments;
Either you can use this as supportive evidence The Employers are 1-A along with viewing nevada as a dream, which means they R>F. They also Help The Machine write Nevada's story

or, it could be an Anti-Feat for The Machine. However, considering the fact The Machine created the employers, I don't think it would be an anti-feat for 1-A R>F

Considering The Employers are just doing the bidding of The Machine, it's very likely The Machine willingly gave up it's prime code to The Auditor to give to the Nexus Core to allow them to stop the destruction of reality.

 

[Employe]

No, he said specifically the Employers help the machine write the story

Did he do? Iirc, he didn't actually answer that Employers write story or anything like this

 

[Alexander]

I am still wondering why isn't the Maker omniscient

 

[Employe]

Bump?

 

[Comiphorous]

Bump?

still writing.

 

[ShiroChan56]

help to bump this.

 

[Employe]

OP is still writing their stuff, I believe

 

[CitRusReality64]

I am still wondering why isn't the Maker omniscient

he already has nigh-omniscience on the profile

 

[Alexander]

he already has nigh-omniscience on the profile

But at least i want a reason why the Omniscient is off the table

 

[CitRusReality64]

But at least i want a reason why the Omniscient is off the table

It's already covered by him being Nigh-omnisceinct

 

[Alexander]

...okay?

 

[Mythic381]

You didnt address the actual problem tho. what qualifies the employer as 1A outside of r>f since thats supporting evidence.

R>F is the qualification. Thats how R>F transcendence works lmao? The page says they can achieve tier 1-A through R>F. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

How would employers be 1-A though? They're accepted as 5-dimensional being which kills 1-A.

 

[Mythic381]

It's already covered by him being Nigh-omnisceinct

The actual description for intelligence section:

Intelligence: Nigh-Omniscience (Should be comparable if not superior to The Machine due to creating and controlling it, which defines every single aspect of reality. WoG states that The Maker knows literally everything.)

Them knowing "literally everything" should just qualify them for being omniscient, atleast afaik.

 

[Comiphorous]

How would employers be 1-A though? They're accepted as 5-dimensional being which kills 1-A.

in game feats take priority over wog statements, if krinkels himself contradicts a feat in game then you take the feat in game rather than him. it wouldn't be the first time krinkels contradicts what's shown in game or contradicts himself on accident.

 

[Mythic381]

in game feats take priority over wog statements, if krinkels himself contradicts a feat in game then you take the feat in game rather than him. it wouldn't be the first time krinkels contradicts what's shown in game or contradicts himself on accident.

Is there any actual contradictions to them being 5D other than the R>F in question though? Because I don't see how that's a valid counter-argument when there's many instances of characters viewing stuff as fictional without an unreachable superiority.

 

[Comiphorous]

Is there any actual contradictions to them being 5D other than the R>F in question though? Because I don't see how that's a valid counter-argument when there's many instances of characters viewing stuff as fictional without an unreachable superiority.

why would you take the WoG statement over the ingame statements? that makes no sense, especially when WoG statements have contradicted in game stuff before. The Auditor is currently 5D based off word of god statements directly saying he is, i'm proposing 1-A based off statements of seeing the world as fiction from in game statements.

Just as much as Krinkels says he's 5D, he's said things puts him much higher than that (such as helping The Machine write Madness Combat) WoG statements shouldn't be compared to in game statements with the same validity. They're supporting evidence at best, complete contradictions to the set lore at worst.

 

[Mythic381]

why would you take the WoG statement over the ingame statements? that makes no sense, especially when WoG statements have contradicted in game stuff before. The Auditor is currently 5D based off word of god statements directly saying he is, i'm proposing 1-A based off statements of seeing the world as fiction from in game statements.

Because according to literally what you said, you do take WoG with the exception of it contradicting the feats in the game. You're proposing something that doesn't actual contradict what we know about him, as the contradiction only comes to the standards of VSBW, not the standards of fictional writing.

Just as much as Krinkels says he's 5D, he's said things puts him much higher than that (such as helping The Machine write Madness Combat) WoG statements shouldn't be compared to in game statements with the same validity. They're supporting evidence at best, complete contradictions to the set lore at worst.

I don't see how him writing Madness Combat should put him above 5D? (assuming the cosmology isn't above 5D)

Trying to say the WoG statement has much as validity to the very thing it contradicts is silly.

There isn't a contradiction though?

 

[Comiphorous]

Because according to literally what you said, you do take WoG with the exception of it contradicting the feats in the game. You're proposing something that doesn't actual contradict what we know about him, as the contradiction only comes to the standards of VSBW, not the standards of fictional writing.

I do. I usually hate using WoG statements for this verse unless it's being used for an already pre-existing feat. You yourself just said that him being 5th dimensional shuts down him having reality fiction transcendence based off his feat of seeing MC as a dream. so that word of god statement about him being 5th dimensional does contradict what we already know about him.

I don't see how him writing Madness Combat should put him above 5D? (assuming the cosmology isn't above 5D)

The Machine has a lot more than 5 dimensions, i'll just tell you that. Scaling anywhere close to the machine gives you a lot more than 5. I'm sure someone here will randomly link the 10 different statements about the manipulation of a infinite dimensional structures or whatever the WoG statement said about the machine.

 

[Mythic381]

I do. I usually hate using WoG statements for this verse unless it's being used for an already pre-existing feat. You yourself just said that him being 5th dimensional shuts down him having reality fiction transcendence. so that word of god statement about him being 5th dimensional does contradict what we already know about him.

It doesn't contradict the idea that something can view something as fictional without being superior to material composition. It just contradicts VSBW standards on 1-A.

The Machine has a lot more than 5 dimensions, i'll just tell you that. Scaling anywhere close to the machine gives you a lot more than 5. I'm sure someone here will randomly link the 10 different statements about the manipulation of a infinite dimensional structures or whatever the WoG statement said about the machine.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "The Machine has" like, does it mean it itself is infinite-dimensional? because that would would be a contradiction to 1-A too.

Also, being 5th dimensional in nature and being capable of manipulating something which is infinite-dimensional doesn't really contradict each other. Characters can have higher-dimensional AP and hax while being lower-dimensional themselves.

 

[Mythic381]

The Machine has a lot more than 5 dimensions, i'll just tell you that. Scaling anywhere close to the machine gives you a lot more than 5. I'm sure someone here will randomly link the 10 different statements about the manipulation of a infinite dimensional structures or whatever the WoG statement said about the machine.

I have 0 knowledge over this and just randomly scrolled on reddit and found this. Perhaps it's what you were referring to?

 

[Comiphorous]

It doesn't contradict the idea that something can view something as fictional without being superior to material composition. It just contradicts VSBW standards on 1-A. It just contradicts VSBW standards on 1-A.

The Auditor already has statements of transcending the thing he also sees as fiction, so i'm not sure where you're going with this.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "The Machine has" like, does it mean it itself is infinite-dimensional? because that would would be a contradiction to 1-A too.

Also, being 5th dimensional in nature and being capable of manipulating something which is infinite-dimensional doesn't really contradict each other. Characters can have higher-dimensional AP and hax while being lower-dimensional themselves.

It was a reply i put no thought into because again, that entire reply was based off more WoG statements that i don't have on me because again i hate WoG statements and don't pay attention to them unless they're related to something that actually happened in the series. I'm not fighting a battle over something i hate and almost always refuse to use.

I have 0 knowledge over this and just randomly scrolled on reddit and found this. Perhaps it's what you were referring to?

Curiouscat was deleted. Those statements don't even exist anymore beyond screenshots people have taken. They probably won't fly here.

 

[Mythic381]

The Auditor already has statements of transcending the thing he also sees as fiction, so i'm not sure where you're going with this.

My point is, this isn't a contradiction because viewing something as fiction is regularly depicted in lots of fictional medias without being an unreachable superiority like this site promotes. Which is why I don't see there being a reason we take it as a contradiction to them being 5D.

 

[Comiphorous]

My point is, this isn't a contradiction because viewing something as fiction is regularly depicted in lots of fictional medias without being an unreachable superiority like this site promotes. Which is why I don't see there being a reason we take it as a contradiction to them being 5D.

Well if you want to use an unreliable WoG statement, WoG has made implications of 5th dimensional Nevada. would that not then contradict the 5 dimensional statement of The Auditor? Do we now downgrade him because he now exists on the same plane of existence of Nevada despite in game feats saying otherwise? Why are his statements put in priority over the in game feats to you?

WoG statements shouldn't be taken with as much merit as you're giving them. They're not reliable in the way you're arguing with them and they can end up making things needlessly complicated and messy because Krinkels didn't wrote the lore all by himself, and he himself as has said he doesn't like writing it either.

Edit: Heres what the blog post for the cosmology looks like rn, no WoG statements to be seen because **** em.

 

[Mythic381]

Well if you want to use an unreliable WoG statement, WoG has made implications of 5th dimensional Nevada. would that not then contradict the 5 dimensional statement of The Auditor? Do we now downgrade him because he now exists on the same plane of existence of Nevada despite in game feats saying otherwise? Why are his statements put in priority over the in game feats to you?

It would contradict the standards here, not the actual rules that fiction abides by. Which is why it's not taken into consideration to the writers that it's a "contradiction" but would be used to downgrade characters and cosmology on the basis of the standards. Also why it w

WoG statements shouldn't be taken with as much merit as you're giving them. They're not reliable in the way you're arguing with them and they can end up making things needlessly complicated and messy because Krinkels didn't wrote the lore all by himself, and he himself as has said he doesn't like writing it either.

The point here is whether or not a statement which isn't contradicted (like you said, no contradictions = used) can be used.

 

[Alexander]

While WOG seems like a complicated thing for this wiki to pass on, Krinkles is one of the few authors who (at least in my opinion) consistently gives answers that are related to the work itself and doesn't necessarily contradict it.
but i will let you assume whatever you want to assume

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "The Machine has" like, does it mean it itself is infinite-dimensional? because that would would be a contradiction to 1-A too.

Also, being 5th dimensional in nature and being capable of manipulating something which is infinite-dimensional doesn't really contradict each other. Characters can have higher-dimensional AP and hax while being lower-dimensional themselves.

The machine has no dimensionality and can define itself by and contain infinite dimensional structures on top of transcending all of the cosmology itself including these higher dimensions.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

My point is, this isn't a contradiction because viewing something as fiction is regularly depicted in lots of fictional medias without being an unreachable superiority like this site promotes. Which is why I don't see there being a reason we take it as a contradiction to them being 5D.

Krinkels was actually asked about them actually viewing Nevada as an dream and he outright said these claims for the employees viewing it as such was by actual unreliable sources(i can go get the scan if ur curious)