BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

[Infinite9Luck]

Gremmy Base: (4.045 Exatons) (Clones: 16.88 ExaFoe)
Zaraki Base: (4.045 Exatons) (Shikai: 16.88 ExaFoe)

As I said, since their current base is no longer applicable (it was a downscale), their base will change to the only other feat we can scale them to, which is the meteor creation feat (4.045 Exatons).

Yeah, it makes sense.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Honestly, you should make a thread if you are interested:

TYBW Anime is Canon

Intro This thread will be to talk about the TYBW anime’s canonicity, and I believe it should be held in regard with equal weight, if not superior to the manga. Evidence Kubo is confident in the anime being faithful to his vision. Kubo and Pierrot have been going back and forth several times...

vsbattles.com

Conclusion
I’m sure most of y’all won’t find this controversial, I’m just making this for formality’s sake. The conclusion is that the TYBW anime is canon and takes precedence as an adaptation, since it is a more completed version of Kubo’s vision for his story.

This is what is currently accepted on the wiki, if you don't like you can change it.

This is correct. All I will add to this part of the conversation.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This is correct. All I will add to this part of the conversation.

I’m not against that anime taking more priority either I would like to remind


Just that it doesn’t apply to literally every nook cranny and pixel of the adaption, especially visuals that get overlooked and likely not touched by the writer

 

[Infinite9Luck]

This is correct. All I will add to this part of the conversation.

These are the indexing proposed, with the values given above, will the other admin give his opinion?

Spoiler: Scaling

Gremmy:

At least Multi-Continent level (Gremmy is probably the strongest Sternritter and no other Sternritter dared to challenge him, albeit whether this encompasses the full capabilities of The Visionary or simply his base power is unknown, he can somewhat keep up with eyepatch Zaraki, and only started losing because he imagined himself losing, up to Multi-Solar System level with 7 clones (Upon summoning clones, Gremmy was able to instantly create an outer space full of stars without effort. Using the same ability, The Visionary, he also fully sacrificed with an explosion his clones, which could injure Zaraki Kenpachi)

We will use thisfor the 4A value as per feats page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/R...ng_a_pocket_dimension_containing_a_starry_sky

Zaraki:

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy), at least Moon level without eyepatch (long explanation copy-pasted from profile), at least Moon level with Nozarashi (casually obliterate this meteor) up to Multi-Solar System level with Nozarashi and no eyepatch (His power is so great that it made Gremmy's imagination collapse, either by imagining his full strength—hence, no eyepatch—or by utterly failing to create a body as strong as Zaraki, with Gremmy himself admitting that his imagination felt short, which previously created outer space with no effort), even higher with Bankai

This was my final arguments to read: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077

It's been more than 4 days since this thread is open, so I would like a final opinion.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

These are the indexing proposed, with the values given above, will the other admin give his opinion?

Spoiler: Scaling

Gremmy:

At least Multi-Continent level (Gremmy is probably the strongest Sternritter and no other Sternritter dared to challenge him, albeit whether this encompasses the full capabilities of The Visionary or simply his base power is unknown, he can somewhat keep up with eyepatch Zaraki, and only started losing because he imagined himself losing, up to Multi-Solar System level with 7 and 8 clones (Upon summoning 7 clones, Gremmy was able to instantly create an outer space full of stars without effort. Using the same ability, The Visionary, he also fully sacrificed with an explosion the same exact 7 clones, which could injure Zaraki Kenpachi with his Shikai, this act required him more effort than anything before, with him wanting to win)

We will use thisfor the 4A value as per feats page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/R...ng_a_pocket_dimension_containing_a_starry_sky

Zaraki:

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy), at least Moon level without eyepatch (long explanation copy-pasted from profile), up to Multi-Solar System level with full power Nozarashi (He was able to tanks the complete suicide of all Gremmy's clones, which previously created outer space, his power is so great that made Gremmy's imagination collapse), far higher with Nozarashi and without eyepatch, even higher with Bankai

This was my final arguments to read: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077

It's been more than 4 days since this thread is open, so I would like a final opinion.

Question,


Why are gremmys self destruction being argued to be as strong as his space warping feat?


I’m not seeing any connecting thing lines between the two

 

[Hellscream]

Was asked to give my opinion, relating to the current stance of the thread.

The characters that would effectively scale with this feat or are above it, would be Shikai Zaraki, Adult toshiro, Post RG Bankai Byakuya, Post RG Bankai Renji, Vollstandig Uryu, Unsealed S0, Ichibei, all forms of Yhwach, Gerard Valkyrie, Ichigo, Aizen, Jugram and of course Gremmy himself.
An argument could be made for Yamamoto as well, but im not going to argue for that currently.

We've seen that Uryu > Unsealed Senjumaru, of which the latter already has a 4-A feat, by making the cosmology tremble by flexing her power.

Post RG Renji was capable of matching Uryu in combat, although being weaker obviously which still makes him scale.
Considering Byakuya has always been stronger than Renji, and underwent the same RG training, it's safe to assume that Byakuya > Renji still.
And all of them, along with Adult toshiro, and Shikai / Bankai Kenpachi were locked in combat with gerard, who scales above them.

All this does is simply prove that the potency of gremmy's creation feat in turn, fits perfectly with the current level of power, of the top tier characters in the verse, as the S0 feat was going to be used to further scale the top tier characters, that are relative, slightly weaker or above S0 in scaling.
This makes the feat consistent, with what the verse was going to be revised to.

The scaling chain itself should look something like this: Ichigo >= Yhwach > Aizen > Gerard > Ichibei > Uryu >= Jugram > Unsealed S0 (4-A) > Kenpachi > Adult toshiro > Post RG Byakuya > Post RG Renji > Gremmy (4-A)

Yet again, you could argue for Pernida and Yamamoto to be a part of it, but it doesn't really matter as the scale is not made to be 100% accurate.
Im just giving a general example of what the scaling should look like, to support the consistency of the feat that was shown.

As for the feat being 3-B, instead of 4-A, the minimal scaling would be 4-A which is what the OP is currently arguing for.
I would personally wait for any type of higher scaling arguments, until the 4th cour comes out so the scaling chain itself is further solidified.

Overall, i agree with the current proposition of using the meteor feat, for their base forms, and the outer space creation feat, for Shikai zaraki, and gremmy with his clones.
(The base form scaling should be an "atleast" imo)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

You do realise that the feat inherently being 3B puts issues on the feat for being the strongest feat in the verse even beyond Squad 0

You start getting more glaring outlier issues that need to be addressed instead of being told to wait for better support, as it’s stands for now it’s the strongest non ED feat in the verse and would be far higher than what Senjumaru scales to

 

[Bastolan27]

Was asked to give my opinion, relating to the current stance of the thread.

My GOAT

The characters that would effectively scale with this feat or are above it, would be Shikai Zaraki, Adult toshiro, Post RG Bankai Byakuya, Post RG Bankai Renji, Vollstandig Uryu, Unsealed S0, Ichibei, all forms of Yhwach, Gerard Valkyrie, Ichigo, Aizen, Jugram and of course Gremmy himself.
An argument could be made for Yamamoto as well, but im not going to argue for that currently.

We've seen that Uryu > Unsealed Senjumaru, of which the latter already has a 4-A feat, by making the cosmology tremble by flexing her power.

Post RG Renji was capable of matching Uryu in combat, although being weaker obviously which still makes him scale.
Considering Byakuya has always been stronger than Renji, and underwent the same RG training, it's safe to assume that Byakuya > Renji still.
And all of them, along with Adult toshiro, and Shikai / Bankai Kenpachi were locked in combat with gerard, who scales above them.

All this does is simply prove that the potency of gremmy's creation feat in turn, fits perfectly with the current level of power, of the top tier characters in the verse, as the S0 feat was going to be used to further scale the top tier characters, that are relative, slightly weaker or above S0 in scaling.
This makes the feat consistent, with what the verse was going to be revised to.

The scaling chain itself should look something like this: Ichigo >= Yhwach > Aizen > Gerard > Ichibei > Uryu >= Jugram > Unsealed S0 (4-A) > Kenpachi > Adult toshiro > Post RG Byakuya > Post RG Renji > Gremmy (4-A)

Yet again, you could argue for Pernida and Yamamoto to be a part of it, but it doesn't really matter as the scale is not made to be 100% accurate.
Im just giving a general example of what the scaling should look like, to support the consistency of the feat that was shown.

As for the feat being 3-B, instead of 4-A, the minimal scaling would be 4-A which is what the OP is currently arguing for.
I would personally wait for any type of higher scaling arguments, until the 4th cour comes out so the scaling chain itself is further solidified.

Overall, i agree with the current proposition of using the meteor feat, for their base forms, and the outer space creation feat, for Shikai zaraki, and gremmy with his clones.
(The base form scaling should be an "atleast" imo)

Yeah, in action, the scaling will only change for the characters in the OP since the others in that chain already scale to the existing 4-A feat, which is also higher. Uryu and Renji are already going to be addressed by Arc in his Cour 3 revisions with another scaling chain.

 

[Bastolan27]

it’s the strongest non ED feat in the verse

Not really, but I'm going to leave Arc to address that in the cour 3 revisions. Or did he say he was going to wait for Cour 4 just for consistency? Anyway, there's already another non-ED feat higher than this in the anime.

 

[Hellscream]

You do realise that the feat inherently being 3B puts issues on the feat for being the strongest feat in the verse even beyond Squad 0

You start getting more glaring outlier issues that need to be addressed instead of being told to wait for better support, as it’s stands for now it’s the strongest non ED feat in the verse and would be far higher than what Senjumaru scales to

Your entire argument is reliant upon the Manga taking precedence over the Anime, which is simply not the case on VSBW so regardless it does not matter for this thread.
And Yhwach's destruction feat being "ED" has already been disproved by the Anime, it's done by raw power making him FAR superior, with the likes of Ichigo and Aizen scaling to him.

Senjumaru's feat was also extremely casual, as it was just her reiatsu passively being released.
And could potentially be scaled higher than 4-A

The feat itself, by taking the manga in consideration would be 3-C, not 3-B, so im not sure where you're pulling 3-B from

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The feat at bare minimum is 4-A, at maximum it’s 3-A. 4-A isn’t downplay, its the conservative end, which given we prefer to be conservative when choosing between ends on vsbw, that’s what would be given to it. I think getting caught up in the weeds of whether 4-A, 3-C, or 3-A is better is just a waste of time and conversation about it should be ignored…

I’m fine with Gremmy being 4-A with peak Visionary. I think the scaling should be its own separate thread but I don’t want to invalidate any discussion that’s been had to this point. If this goes through, I’ll review some scaling and drop a scaling updates thread based on the ramifications of this thread.

I tentatively disagree with eyepatch Shikai Zaraki scaling though. 8 Gremmy made outer space, 7 Gremmy suicide bombed Zaraki. I’ve got other scaling thoughts but as I already said I don’t think this thread is the time nor place.

TLDR; agree with 4-A peak Visionary Gremmy, disagree with 4-A eyepatch ShiKen.

 

[Johner2133451]

Was asked to give my opinion, relating to the current stance of the thread.

The characters that would effectively scale with this feat or are above it, would be Shikai Zaraki, Adult toshiro, Post RG Bankai Byakuya, Post RG Bankai Renji, Vollstandig Uryu, Unsealed S0, Ichibei, all forms of Yhwach, Gerard Valkyrie, Ichigo, Aizen, Jugram and of course Gremmy himself.
An argument could be made for Yamamoto as well, but im not going to argue for that currently.

We've seen that Uryu > Unsealed Senjumaru, of which the latter already has a 4-A feat, by making the cosmology tremble by flexing her power.

Post RG Renji was capable of matching Uryu in combat, although being weaker obviously which still makes him scale.
Considering Byakuya has always been stronger than Renji, and underwent the same RG training, it's safe to assume that Byakuya > Renji still.
And all of them, along with Adult toshiro, and Shikai / Bankai Kenpachi were locked in combat with gerard, who scales above them.

All this does is simply prove that the potency of gremmy's creation feat in turn, fits perfectly with the current level of power, of the top tier characters in the verse, as the S0 feat was going to be used to further scale the top tier characters, that are relative, slightly weaker or above S0 in scaling.
This makes the feat consistent, with what the verse was going to be revised to.

The scaling chain itself should look something like this: Ichigo >= Yhwach > Aizen > Gerard > Ichibei > Uryu >= Jugram > Unsealed S0 (4-A) > Kenpachi > Adult toshiro > Post RG Byakuya > Post RG Renji > Gremmy (4-A)

Yet again, you could argue for Pernida and Yamamoto to be a part of it, but it doesn't really matter as the scale is not made to be 100% accurate.
Im just giving a general example of what the scaling should look like, to support the consistency of the feat that was shown.

As for the feat being 3-B, instead of 4-A, the minimal scaling would be 4-A which is what the OP is currently arguing for.
I would personally wait for any type of higher scaling arguments, until the 4th cour comes out so the scaling chain itself is further solidified.

Overall, i agree with the current proposition of using the meteor feat, for their base forms, and the outer space creation feat, for Shikai zaraki, and gremmy with his clones.
(The base form scaling should be an "atleast" imo)

Is Gerard really above Ichibei?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Your entire argument is reliant upon the Manga taking precedence over the Anime

I never once said this by the way

anime depiction only takes place if it's trying to override the manga which is not the case, they don't contradict each other, the medium of manga as still images which get more time and room to illustrate details leading to the inclusion of a galaxy while the anime medium requiring illustration of multiple frames cheapens the adaptations at times, this isn't grounds for overlooking manga material whatsoever especially given the writer only believes tybw is extended version for the fans rather than fixing the problems in his manga, further more the anime taking precedence over manga applies mostly to major narrative points due to the involvement of the author, if the whole reasoning rests on the idea that the writer chooses to make active modifications which is not provable as it is a minor visual change that most people overlook and something you cannot prove the staff making the anime or even Kubo care about via occams razor we can conclude it will not override the manga at all which holds his true intentions of including galaxies as a very small subset of it

this is what I said

Yhwach's destruction feat being "ED" has already been disproved by the Anime, it's done by raw power making him FAR superior, with the likes of Ichigo and Aizen scaling to him.

it's not treated like that right now, until someone can get that accepted the strongest feat of the verse currently stands as 4A

senjumaru's feat was also extremely casual, as it was just her reiatsu passively being released.
And could potentially be scaled higher than 4-A

it can't be quantified beyond 4A sadly unless you wanna argue for greater magnitudes which simply isnt supported by her feat
its around 10x weaker than baseline 3C, then gremmys one which scales several dozen magnitudes higher than senjumaru

The feat itself, by taking the manga in consideration would be 3-C, not 3-B, so im not sure where you're pulling 3-B from

the galaxy is a small part of many other celestial bodies so I called it 3B, but even if you do wish to say 3C, it'll be super high into 3C and that's pretending nothing else in the space exists beyond whats shown in that case even the anime's 4A would go away as well if you wanna only count what exaclty is on screen then itll be like high into 4c

The feat at bare minimum is 4-A, at maximum it’s 3-A. 4-A isn’t downplay, its the conservative end, which given we prefer to be conservative when choosing between ends on vsbw, that’s what would be given to it.

it cannot be bare minimum 4A when we know kubo intends to keep galaxies in there, that's like saying 4C is the bare minnimum since there's multiple stars and you can't prove it keeps going beyond

if you wanna go conservative then it becomes 4C, not 4A

I think getting caught up in the weeds of whether 4-A, 3-C, or 3-A is better is just a waste of time and conversation about it should be ignored…

it's actually not, being tier 3 makes the outlier case worse as I've said before

 

[Adam1396]

About scaling,

Base yhwach > ichibei > squad zero > temporarily amped uryu/ mimihagi marked uryu, Jugram (masked ruler) > yamamoto, Royd, enraged fullbring ichigo > peak gerard > adult toshiro > Bankai zaraki (tybw) > Gremmy 8 clones > shikai zaraki > ~ Bankai Unohana ~ Pernida, Mayuri.

It's a hard disagree from me about Renji and byakuya scaling anywhere close. Their scaling to up there is heavily questionable even with anime circumstances.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The anime shows it as just a starry sky, 4-A is valid, end of discussion.

Edit: 1) we accept the anime portrayal to be the primary portrayal, so its primary depiction is 4A, 2) S0 feat is hyper casual while Gremmy is ******** his pants to do this it’s not an outlier, in the sense of “it makes him stronger than S0”, because feats aren’t limiters.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The anime shows it as just a starry sky, 4-A is valid, end of discussion.

you don't get to decide what is the end of the discussion or not


the 4A assumes there's stars outside of what is shown, if you want to only scale stuff that is shown then it cannot reach 4A

1) we accept the anime portrayal to be the primary portrayal, so its primary depiction is 4A

Circular, I'm just gonna copypaste my old response until you bring something they haven't said

anime depiction only takes place if it's trying to override the manga which is not the case, they don't contradict each other, the medium of manga as still images which get more time and room to illustrate details leading to the inclusion of a galaxy while the anime medium requiring illustration of multiple frames cheapens the adaptations at times, this isn't grounds for overlooking manga material whatsoever

The anime isn’t trying to override or contradict the manga for you to say “it takes precedence” you just can’t see it as well lol
It also serves no narrative purpose to remove the galaxy, none of the Staff working in the anime provably care for a downgrade of the feat, as such we should go with the manga which holds Kubo’s intentions slightly better due to having a clearer page to draw on
As we know that Bleach Author Titr Kubo intends to have a galaxy in the structure the feat going anywhere below 3B is wrong

if the whole reasoning rests on the idea that the writer chooses to make active modifications which is not provable as it is a minor visual change that most people overlook and something you cannot prove the staff making the anime or even Kubo care about via occams razor we can conclude it will not override the manga at all which holds his true intentions of including galaxies as a very small subset of it

No I will not because I partially agree with anime overriding manga if the modification is major or makes sense
Yhwach destroying the realms is treated as ED rn but if he punches them into destruction without almighty then he'll get 3a/2c striking strength and it would override the manga as it's blatant and a major change it would make sense as well under the justification of power display
you can't prove the same for this thing because not a soul realistically cares about this provably

remember, the bleach profiles on vsbw isnt for manga or anime, its for what it deemed canon for the franchise so the "anime shows this" doesnt invalidate things that arent provably retconned

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

no one said 3-C is an invalid interpretation brotha, 4-A is still more valid tho I’ll differ to staff judgment tho, I’m not active much in this thread unfortunately.

Anime did change the fight too, in the manga 7 Gremmy make a galaxy, in the anime 8 make just a starry sky. So the anime did in fact change the fight in significant ways, and as per the passed thread takes precedence. That’s just what’s accepted bucko

 

[Adam1396]

@Ghostimuscrime not trying to offense anybody, but from my POV even manga doesn’t suggest ED. It was cherry picking for whatever reason.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

no one said 3-C is an invalid interpretation brotha, 4-A is still more valid tho I’ll differ to staff judgment tho, I’m not active much in this thread unfortunately.

Anime did change the fight too, in the manga 7 Gremmy make a galaxy, in the anime 8 make just a starry sky. So the anime did in fact change the fight in significant ways, and as per the passed thread takes precedence. That’s just what’s accepted bucko

I acknowledged that, you don't have to rehash old arguments like I'm an old man with hearing issues
I argued even with that line of thinking you're not getting what you're arguing for


Conservative "most valid" route --> High 4C
Consideration of the Full Feat as intended by author in a medium he has full freedom and solely dictates visuals of --> 3C~3B

@Ghostimuscrime not trying to offense anybody, but from my POV even manga doesn’t suggest ED. It was cherry picking for whatever reason.

im not arguing if its ED or not, I'm saying RN is treated as ED on the wiki officially

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I acknowledged that, you don't have to rehash old arguments like I'm old man with hearing issues
I argued even with that line of thinking you're not getting what you're arguing for


Conservative "most valid" route --> High 4C
Consideration of the Full Feat as intended by author in a medium he has full freedom and solely dictates visuals of --> 3C~3B

We can agree to disagree

 

[Adam1396]

no one said 3-C is an invalid interpretation brotha, 4-A is still more valid tho I’ll differ to staff judgment tho, I’m not active much in this thread unfortunately.

Anime did change the fight too, in the manga 7 Gremmy make a galaxy, in the anime 8 make just a starry sky. So the anime did in fact change the fight in significant ways, and as per the passed thread takes precedence. That’s just what’s accepted bucko

It's 3B probably and changes weren’t significant.
Outerspace statement also comes from director itself. So it's a heavy statement nonth the less.
And since we are having talks about visual, such bright background obviously is supposed to make it incredibly hard to mark galaxy. Even a galaxy would look like a star in this scenario

 

[Adam1396]

@Ghostimuscrime it's best if we don’t bring that up anymore. Things might change in future cour or squad zero might get upgraded. If these happens, it will be a minor revision. Just save these for later.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

you don't get to decide what is the end of the discussion or not


the 4A assumes there's stars outside of what is shown, if you want to only scale stuff that is shown then it cannot reach 4A

Circular, I'm just gonna copypaste my old response until you bring something they haven't said




remember, the bleach profiles on vsbw isnt for manga or anime, its for what it deemed canon for the franchise so the "anime shows this" doesnt invalidate things that arent provably retconned

I will ask you now to drop this, as is starting to derail the thread. Thank you.

As has been mentioned to you multiple times, the anime takes precedence. You can make a thread to change said policy if you'd like, but this isn't the thread for it.

 

[Bastolan27]

@LephyrTheRevanchist
Yeah, my bad. spent like 10 minutes writing that and didn’t see your post.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I agree with the 8 Gremmy's having enough energy output to create said starry sky with Visionary.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I agree with the 8 Gremmy's having enough energy output to create said starry sky with Visionary.

it is 7 clones in the anime, but I mean, there were 8 also for the explosion.

Once again, I'll link my final stance here for future moderators or admins: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will try to speed this up a bit

@LordTracer @LordGriffin1000 @Nierre @Mr._Propeller_Hat @Reiner04 @FinePoint (oh yeah, I'm draggin y'all with me buckos!)

A summary of past arguments can be found here

Further arguments in favor found here, here and here

The counterarguments include the following:

• Damage's initial post
• Duedate's initial post
• Duedate's clarification
• Damage's last argument post (Should be noted Damage has more to say, but can't due to time issues)

The proposed current scaling as a consequence of this thread can be found here with the main justifications being elaborated here

It should be noted, @Arc7Kuroi does oppose scaling Shikai/Eye-Patch Kenpachi, since it took 8 Gremmy's to do the feat, and the attack he took only included 7.

Taking all this into consideration, I expect your most sincere thoughts here. Thank you for your time.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I will try to speed this up a bit

@LordTracer @LordGriffin1000 @Nierre @Mr._Propeller_Hat @Reiner04 @FinePoint (oh yeah, I'm draggin y'all with me buckos!)

A summary of past arguments can be found here

Further arguments in favor found here, here and here

The counterarguments include the following:

• Damage's initial post
• Duedate's initial post
• Duedate's clarification
• Damage's last argument post (Should be noted Damage has more to say, but can't due to time issues)

The proposed current scaling as a consequence of this thread can be found here with the main justifications being elaborated here

It should be noted, @Arc7Kuroi does oppose scaling Shikai/Eye-Patch Kenpachi, since it took 8 Gremmy's to do the feat, and the attack he took only included 7.

Taking all this into consideration, I expect your most sincere thoughts here. Thank you for your time.

Thanks! That helps! Hopefully, more people will comment.

I also want to point out that I responded to Duedate’s argument here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7012361, but he stopped replying to me.

In my response, I emphasized how stars are a necessity for space to exhibit its properties, and as such they are a reality as we see.

• Space is a near-perfect vacuum, meaning there’s almost no air (including oxygen)
  
  
• This vacuum can also exists because stars drive away gas and particles through intense radiation and stellar winds, preventing an atmosphere from forming in open space.

Regarding 8 clones I believe there's a misunderstanding, it is 7 clones that creates the space, the 8th clones only appear later for the explosion, which will further support my argument of scaling.

A further detail is here, this is the full anime clip, and shown exaclty and only 7 clones, the 8th only appear for the explosion, making my scaling valid.

 

[Reiner04]

I will try to speed this up a bit

@LordTracer @LordGriffin1000 @Nierre @Mr._Propeller_Hat @Reiner04 @FinePoint (oh yeah, I'm draggin y'all with me buckos!)

A summary of past arguments can be found here

Further arguments in favor found here, here and here

The counterarguments include the following:

• Damage's initial post
• Duedate's initial post
• Duedate's clarification
• Damage's last argument post (Should be noted Damage has more to say, but can't due to time issues)

The proposed current scaling as a consequence of this thread can be found here with the main justifications being elaborated here

It should be noted, @Arc7Kuroi does oppose scaling Shikai/Eye-Patch Kenpachi, since it took 8 Gremmy's to do the feat, and the attack he took only included 7.

Taking all this into consideration, I expect your most sincere thoughts here. Thank you for your time.

Reading through thread I find myself agreeing with OP.

 

[Damage3245]

Regarding 8 clones I believe there's a misunderstanding, it is 7 clones that creates the space, the 8th clones only appear later for the explosion, which will further support my argument of scaling.

What makes you believe that the eighth Gremmy is not contributing any of his imagination into creating the space? Even if he's not directly seen in that shot, we know he's present and there's no reason for him not to contribute in attacking Kenpachi.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

What makes you believe that the eighth Gremmy is not contributing any of his imagination into creating the space? Even if he's not directly seen in that shot, we know he's present and there's no reason for him not to contribute in attacking Kenpachi.

There is no 8th Gremmy, I posted the full anime clip here, funny enough you can even see gremmy turning to 1 to 7, and then exactly 7 of them creating it, there's no doubt, the 8th only appear after for explosion, it actually support my argument!

 

[Bastolan27]

What makes you believe that the eighth Gremmy is not contributing any of his imagination into creating the space? Even if he's not directly seen in that shot, we know he's present and there's no reason for him not to contribute in attacking Kenpachi.

Screenshot of when he created the clones for a clearer view.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Reading through thread I find myself agreeing with OP.

Thanks for the judgement!

 

[Adam1396]

I don’t exactly get how 7 or 8 gremmy makes the scaling different. But I'm on the side of linear amp. It can be basic multiplication or square since both gremmy state their power to be doubled.
As for clarification meteor or outer space feats aren't limit of specific forms, he created both casually. He even imagined full raw power of zaraki as well. Just there was a mistake on his part due to lack of experience.

But from the implications of fight shikai eyepatch zaraki most likely is below 8 gremmy. Weaker characters still can damage characters several times stronger, just not marginally above ones.

 

[Deceived3596]

I am still adamant in my disagreement with the 4-A scaling until a couple of my questions are answered by Arc. If it gets accepted by the majority before then, it is what it is.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Reading through thread I find myself agreeing with OP.

Thank you for the comment

 

[Damage3245]

I am still adamant in my disagreement with the 4-A scaling until a couple of my questions are answered by Arc. If it gets accepted by the majority before then, it is what it is.

Which questions do you need answered by Arc?

 

[Deceived3596]

Which questions do you need answered by Arc?

They'll be about my current disagreements with the feat being 4-A to begin with.

As for the questions themselves, I want to formulate them better before I start asking them. They'll essentially be about why the stars we see are actual stars, with the same energy requirements as an actual star. And a more Metaphysical question about Gremmy's Imagination not necessarily being equivalent with Reality.

 

[Damage3245]

They'll be about my current disagreements with the feat being 4-A to begin with.

As for the questions themselves, I want to formulate them better before I start asking them. They'll essentially be about why the stars we see are actual stars, with the same energy requirements as an actual star. And a more Metaphysical question about Gremmy's Imagination not necessarily being equivalent with Reality.

Okay, I have similar concerns so I'll check back in on the thread later to follow the discussion.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

After reading through the thread, I think I agree with the OP.