Nanatsu no Taizai: Upgrade Low 5-B and FTL+

[Demon_Lord18]

Tbh they are individually far inferior besides Zeldris.

Yes, that's why the second strongest commandment was scaled to 2 Exatons and Zeldris to 18.9 Exatons.

 

[Majinere566]

We also have this accepted calculation that increased the LS of everyone in the verse

Totally forgot about this calc. Do you remember why this wasn’t used?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm not talking about power, but durability. Your arm doesn't become less durable just because it was removed from your body.

He didn't do that. He just pierced Grieving Sage's carcass, and it strangely fell apart, but he didn't destroy it. He has a long fight against Fleeting Hermit before using Ominous Nebula, which is his strongest power. We can drop this, as this is not the real reason for his scaling, and now I can see another huge problem here.

It is not necessary to repost the same arguments and the same scans from that CRT, but I should have linked it to show where the reasoning came from.

Sure then let's just drop this.

Actually, the mistake happened because I used the Demon King's tentacles, while that's not the reason for Zeldris and the other characters to scale. The reason is that they are said not to fall short in relation to the sins.

Tbh they are individually far inferior besides Zeldris.

Basically this. I can see Zeldris with some justification have no problem.

But my concern is regarding Tristan now.

They are different versions of Meliodas. Post-Revival Meliodas < Melascula's Cocoon < Base Tristan < Post-Purgatory Meliodas < 4KoA Meliodas.

Now why Post Revival Meliodas scales to Demon King Rating?

I made this more confusing than it should have been when I brought up that argument.

But a downscaling is still good. the Demon King finds it necessary to block Mael's attacks. Mael can also withstand an attack from the Demon King with moderate damage, and Elizabeth, who is equal or superior, can injure DKZ, who is slightly inferior to the Demon King in Meliodas' body.

I agree with this..

Tbf he was rage amped and used his ultimate move to destroy it.

Fair

But it’s stupid to say that It scales to DK

Yeah pretty much

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Totally forgot about this calc. Do you remember why this wasn’t used?

No

 

[Makai641001]

But my concern is regarding Tristan now.

He shouldn’t be this high imo Tristan being tens of times higher than Mael doesn’t make sense at all

Base Tristan lost to Schwartz that’s basically one of the black knights (it’s the canon version of bellion from the prisonner of the sky movie) which is on par with lower commandments.

With demon marks he cooked the fusion of 2 commandments and with enchantments he scales 10 x higher

Now why Post Revival Meliodas scales to Demon King Rating?

Probably cause he rates the commandments so high

There is also a big problem in the fact that DK and the god tiers are heavily lowballed which makes it look like lower tiers are close to them in power.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Now why Post Revival Meliodas scales to Demon King Rating?

For the same reason as Zeldris and the other Commandments. This Meliodas is superior to the Unsealed Meliodas who can take on a Drole with his weakened magic.

Diane can withstand an attack from the Demon King (she had used Drole's dance shortly before, perhaps she was still under its effect), she can also endure blows from the Demon King at full power, although the circumstances are unknown since it happened off-screen. She can also withstand attacks from Mael with 4 Commandments, although she appears to have taken quite a bit of damage (this would be her base version). This same Diane is compared to Drole (who can strangely injure a weakened True Form Chandler). King can hurt Chandler who is comparable to Zeldris.

He shouldn’t be this high imo Tristan being tens of times higher than Mael doesn’t make sense at all

Base Tristan is inferior to Mael, approximately 4 times.

Base Tristan lost to Schwartz that’s basically one of the black knights (it’s the canon version of bellion from the prisonner of the sky movie) which is on par with lower commandments.

Tristan was holding back, Schwartz never had a chance to win
This can be resolved by not scaling base Percival to base Tristan. The reason is that he knocked out Tristan, but this does not cause any real physical damage to Tristan, and he also falls. We can scale base Percival to Unknown or city level, and give 3 Zettatons to his magically imbued weaponry and 300 Exatons for him using only the power of hope.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For the same reason as Zeldris and the other Commandments. This Meliodas is superior to the Unsealed Meliodas who can take on a Drole with his weakened magic.

Diane can withstand an attack from the Demon King (she had used Drole's dance shortly before, perhaps she was still under its effect), she can also endure blows from the Demon King at full power, although the circumstances are unknown since it happened off-screen. She can also withstand attacks from Mael with 4 Commandments, although she appears to have taken quite a bit of damage (this would be her base version). This same Diane is compared to Drole (who can strangely injure a weakened True Form Chandler). King can hurt Chandler who is comparable to Zeldris.

Definitely seeing some problems now

• Just because the Demon King is 5-B doesn't mean he always attacks with that level of power. It's described that he used his massive force to put Behemoth to sleep, whereas Zeldris doesn't have the same level of power. This implies that the Demon King had to be somewhat serious to accomplish this feat. In contrast, in the above scans, we don't see the Demon King using the same level of power, yet everyone was still knocked down. You can see this was a casual attack not serious one. Therefore, the Seven Deadly Sins surviving casual attacks from the Demon King shouldn't automatically make them 5-B. This can also be considered a common trope in manga—it's not unusual for weaker characters to miraculously survive attacks from much stronger opponents without actually scaling to them. As far as I remember, the only time the Demon King was seriously trying was against Ban.
• This version of Mael don't seem to scale to the DK though. See surviving attacks from rampaging Mael mean not much I think..
• Chandler doesn't scale to DK though as he is the Primordial Demon has and True power only unleashed when other half. I don't see him scaling to DK who put Behemoth down.
• I think Zeldris should get a different key which makes him scale to DK.

 

[Makai641001]

For the same reason as Zeldris and the other Commandments. This Meliodas is superior to the Unsealed Meliodas who can take on a Drole with his weakened magic.

Diane can withstand an attack from the Demon King (she had used Drole's dance shortly before, perhaps she was still under its effect), she can also endure blows from the Demon King at full power, although the circumstances are unknown since it happened off-screen. She can also withstand attacks from Mael with 4 Commandments, although she appears to have taken quite a bit of damage (this would be her base version). This same Diane is compared to Drole (who can strangely injure a weakened True Form Chandler). King can hurt Chandler who is comparable to Zeldris.

This reasoning is a bit shakey

Base Tristan is inferior to Mael, approximately 4 times.

Even with enchantments and demon marks he isn’t even close to Mael

Tristan was holding back, Schwartz never had a chance to win

His base got one tapped lol

This can be resolved by not scaling base Percival to base Tristan. The reason is that he knocked out Tristan, but this does not cause any real physical damage to Tristan, and he also falls. We can scale base Percival to Unknown or city level, and give 3 Zettatons to his magically imbued weaponry and 300 Exatons for him using only the power of hope.

City lvl to tier 5 is crazy

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Just because the Demon King is 5-B doesn't mean he always attacks with that level of power. It's described that he used his massive force to put Behemoth to sleep, whereas Zeldris doesn't have the same level of power. This implies that the Demon King had to be somewhat serious to accomplish this feat.

Massive strength means that the Demon King has a great amount of force, not that his punches need to be at maximum power or close to it to be classified as Low 5-B. Besides, the Demon King never holds back.

Moments earlier, he was attacking to kill Elizabeth; it doesn't make sense for him to hold back against the others.

This version of Mael don't seem to scale to the DK though. See surviving attacks from rampaging Mael mean not much I think.

Mael should scale

I think Zeldris should get a different key which makes him scale to DK.

Zeldris definitely does not need a new key

This reasoning is a bit shakey

No, we achieved similar, if not identical, results using other methods, so this is not inconsistent.

Elizabeth can harm DKZ in its first form. She, Meliodas, Mael, and Ludociel are said to be equal in power. Fraudrin states that Meliodas regained his magic power from when he was the leader of the Ten Commandments. This can be confirmed by seeing that Meliodas and Estarossa (Mael without the grace) have the same power level, 60k. Meliodas could not destroy Melascula's cocoon with his second mark. Estarossa, with one commandment, was relative to the archangels in their vessels. And the other commandments could keep up a fight against those archangels(Chapter 205 to 206). This is more consistent than the Demon King, for an unknown reason, holding back, and the characters of Small Country level being able to resist attacks and injure level 5 characters, who have a difference of more than 4.32e+8 times greater.

Even with enchantments and demon marks he isn’t even close to Mael

This would only be true if Meliodas were not comparable to Mael.

City lvl to tier 5 is crazy

Not really, the power of hope gives a monstrous boost to Percival

 

[Makai641001]

Massive strength means that the Demon King has a great amount of force, not that his punches need to be at maximum power or close to it to be classified as Low 5-B. Besides, the Demon King never holds back.

Yeah

Moments earlier, he was attacking to kill Elizabeth; it doesn't make sense for him to hold back against the others.

Agreed he pretty much always goes for the kill

Mael should scale

I don’t think so

No, we achieved similar, if not identical, results using other methods, so this is not inconsistent.

It is partly

Elizabeth can harm DKZ in its first form.

Yeah

She, Meliodas, Mael, and Ludociel are said to be equal in power.

But they aren’t.

It is stated that Ludociel NEVER won during his trainings against Mael.

OG Meliodas intercepted and blitzed Ludociel that knew he wouldn’t be able to Go for Elisabeth

Fraudrin states that Meliodas regained his magic power from when he was the leader of the Ten Commandments.

He said that His magic was « like before » not in terms of power but likely cause he became more evil due to resurrection

This can be confirmed by seeing that Meliodas and Estarossa (Mael without the grace) have the same power level, 60k

Around the same yeah

. Meliodas could not destroy Melascula's cocoon with his second mark.

Yeah and ?

Estarossa, with one commandment, was relative to the archangels in their vessels.

Ok but said archangels aren’t even close to DK’s power

And the other commandments could keep up a fight against those archangels(Chapter 205 to 206).

They got overpowered even though they outnumbered them

This is more consistent than the Demon King, for an unknown reason, holding back, and the characters of Small Country level being able to resist attacks and injure level 5 characters, who have a difference of more than 4.32e+8 times greater.

I don’t think he held back but some characters shouldn’t scale that high.

This would only be true if Meliodas were not comparable to Mael.

First of all he broke It entirely using his 10x amp enchantment he didn’t use darkness attacks
AM passively made It explode without even attacking it.

Also the Fraudrin statement isn’t necessarily about power lvl

And finally we saw Nanashi a lower tier archangel one shotting Gawain someone comparable or stronger than base Tristan holding his own and surviving the attack that constantly one shots Demon Wrath Tristan. (Shining road)

Tristan isn’t on par with the Archangels yet.

Not really, the power of hope gives a monstrous boost to Percival

That’s not millions of times

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I don’t think so

If Mael doesn't scale, no one besides the Sins and the deities should scale

But they aren’t.

It is stated that Ludociel NEVER won during his trainings against Mael.

When was that said? It was only said that when it was close to noon, Ludociel could not keep up with Mael.

OG Meliodas intercepted and blitzed Ludociel

Ludociel was standing still, Meliodas did not intercept him. He had his back to Meliodas, I don't see how this is a blitz. I didn't understand the rest.

He said that His magic was « like before » not in terms of power but likely cause he became more evil due to resurrection

No, from what I remember, this kanji (魔力) is used for magical power and not just for magic. Meliodas was still not as evil as he was before even after the resurrection.

Yeah and ?

This is the basis of Tristan's scale.

Ok but said archangels aren’t even close to DK’s power

Who said that? I only remember Ludociel saying that they couldn't defeat him.

They got overpowered even though they outnumbered them

No, they managed to injure the archangels as well as withstand their attacks. The weakest Commandment managed to block a light magic from Tarmiel and throw it at Sariel. The difference is not that big.

First of all he broke It entirely using his 10x amp enchantment he didn’t use darkness attacks
AM passively made It explode without even attacking it.

Who do you mean? Meliodas or Tristan? Either way, Tristan in his base form could already pierce the cocoon, he didn't need his enchantment, something that Demon Meliodas couldn't even do. Meliodas in his Assault Mode (AM) destroyed a cocoon inferior to the one Tristan pierced. Tristan's was being amplified by the power of Chaos.

Also the Fraudrin statement isn’t necessarily about power lvl

The fact that Meliodas and Estarossa's power levels are equal kind of implies that it was about power.

finally we saw Nanashi a lower tier archangel one shotting Gawain someone comparable or stronger than base Tristan

This Gawain wasn't even using the grace of the Sun, we don't know how strong or resistant she is.

holding his own and surviving the attack that constantly one shots Demon Wrath Tristan. (Shining road)

Dude, Lancelot says he was almost dead, but the goddesses' regeneration saved him.

 

[Makai641001]

If Mael doesn't scale, no one besides the Sins and the deities should scale

He shouldn’t scale fully down scaling is okay tho

When was that said? It was only said that when it was close to noon, Ludociel could not keep up with Mael.

In one of the novels.

Mael one tapped the original Demon that was overpowering Ludociel’s true body despite not being in his noon state.

Ludociel was standing still, Meliodas did not intercept him. He had his back to Meliodas, I don't see how this is a blitz.

Here Ludo was seemingly shocked

Btw Ludociel doesn’t need to « look at him » cause he is… blind lol

Also Meli was ready to engage the fight against all 3 archangels at the same Time and was confident about It.

No, from what I remember, this kanji (魔力) is used for magical power and not just for magic.

Magic is magical power « hope » is a magical power/magic.

Meliodas was still not as evil as he was before even after the resurrection.

Not as much, but he still became way darker and that was the litteral point of this fight (showing that he isn’t the good guy that they all knew)

This is the basis of Tristan's scale.

Yeah

Who said that? I only remember Ludociel saying that they couldn't defeat him.

Blud couldn’t beat OD, Mael litteraly ran away

they really didn’t want the smoke.

No, they managed to injure the archangels as well as withstand their attacks.

Weaker archangels, that are still noted as superior to them and that are glasscanons with good regens lol

The weakest Commandment managed to block a light magic from Tarmiel and throw it at Sariel. The difference is not that big.

With critical over he isn’t the « weakest » commandment especially physically

Who do you mean? Meliodas or Tristan? Either way, Tristan in his base form could already pierce the cocoon,

Barely

he didn't need his enchantment,

He did to slice it open

something that Demon Meliodas couldn't even do.

He attacked with darkness.

Meliodas in his Assault Mode (AM) destroyed a cocoon inferior to the one Tristan pierced. Tristan's was being amplified by the power of Chaos.

He made it explode passively.

We can’t quantify how much stronger it got + Chaos Melascula lost her commandment but got the chaos amp we can't tell how strong she became.

AM Meliodas still isn't as strong as his OG version tho.

OG Mel ≈ Noon Mael > Mael >(One shot gap)> OD > Ludociel > The One Escanor > AM Meliodas.

His OG version was able to fight against Mael at his strongest and to be confident about 1v3 the archangels.

Ludociel did more damage to OD than noon escanor

The fact that Meliodas and Estarossa's power levels are equal kind of implies that it was about power.

He doesn’t Even talk about PL ???
He just said that his Power ressemble his old self (And it’s way more logical to assume it’s about his cruelty)

This Gawain wasn't even using the grace of the Sun, we don't know how strong or resistant she is.

Fair

Dude, Lancelot says he was almost dead, but the goddesses' regeneration saved him.

1) He was able to match Lancelot
2) He was able to survive it long enough to regen
3) The goddess physiologies are linked to their Power lvls and Nanashi have waaaaay stronger healing and light magic.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Mael one tapped the original Demon that was overpowering Ludociel’s true body despite not being in his noon state.

Ludociel was not being dominated

he is… blind lol

lol, I had completely forgotten about that

Blud couldn’t beat OD, Mael litteraly ran away

they really didn’t want the smoke.

?

Weaker archangels, that are still noted as superior to them and that are glasscanons with good regens lol

Sariel uses his grace to defend himself

With critical over he isn’t the « weakest » commandment especially physically

Yes, but he is still one of the weakest.

He made it explode passively.

We can’t quantify how much stronger it got + Chaos Melascula lost her commandment but got the chaos amp we can't tell how strong she became.

To be fair, Melascula says that the cocoon has been amplified and now it absorbs souls; maybe its durability hasn't changed.

AM Meliodas still isn't as strong as his OG version tho.

OG Mel ≈ Noon Mael > Mael >(One shot gap)> OD > Ludociel > The One Escanor > AM Meliodas.

Ludociel is not superior to Escanor The One nor to Meliodas AM. Meliodas AM, while holding back, can dominate Zeldris, Estarossa, and Cusack. Ludociel, in Margaret's body, faced a weaker Zeldris, and their battle was balanced. The second mark of Zeldris equaled Mael, who shot at OD that was fighting equally against Ludociel's true body. Although I can see Ludo scaling to AM, since OD destroyed the cocoon made by Meliodas.

Ludociel did more damage to OD than noon escanor

Escanor never fought against OD at noon.

He doesn’t Even talk about PL ???
He just said that his Power ressemble his old self (And it’s way more logical to assume it’s about his cruelty)

Just as he never talked about emotion. It makes much more sense to be about power.

1) He was able to match Lancelot
2) He was able to survive it long enough to regen
3) The goddess physiologies are linked to their Power lvls and Nanashi have waaaaay stronger healing and light magic.

Do you realize that these arguments make the weaker archangels have a reduction in scale from the DK?

For Tristan to be inferior to the Archangels, Post Revival Demon Mark Meliodas should also be.

Even placing Meliodas well below Tarmiel and Sariel, you get Tristan above them:

Spoiler: Scale

Post-revival Meliodas and Estarossa: 130 Gigatons (High 6-C)
Demon Mark Post-revival Meliodas and Base Tristan: 520 Gigatons (High 6-C+)

Sariel and Tarmiel: 2.6 Teratons (Low 6-B)

True Form Sariel, Tarmiel and Enchantments Tristan, Meliodas AM,True form Ludo, OD, Zeldris, Mael: 5.2 Teratons (Low 6-B+)

The One Escanor: 52 Teratons

 

[Makai641001]

Ludociel was not being dominated

Here

lol, I had completely forgotten about that

Yeah

Sariel uses his grace to defend himself

Which isn’t really quantifiable in terms of durability + he may not have used It to it’s full power

Yes, but he is still one of the weakest.

He is a Mid tier in terms of physicals

To be fair, Melascula says that the cocoon has been amplified and now it absorbs souls; maybe its durability hasn't changed.

Yeah maybe

Ludociel is not superior to Escanor The One

He basically did way more damage to OD than Escanor ever did

nor to Meliodas AM. Meliodas AM, while holding back, can dominate Zeldris,

Which didn’t have « god » since he couldn’t null Meliodas crushing

Estarossa,

Which isn’t AA lvl

and Cusack.

In base form

Ludociel, in Margaret's body, faced a weaker Zeldris, and their battle was balanced.

Ludociel was getting fatigued.

The second mark of Zeldris equaled Mael,

Atp he had god he was nullifying his magic

+ he was getting dominated and only blitzed and damage him with his rage Amp active

who shot at OD that was fighting equally against Ludociel's true body.

He was starting to take the edge with Crisis
You just conceded a one shot gap between Ludo and Mael lol

Although I can see Ludo scaling to AM,

He should be stronger than AM.

The only Meliodas stronger than OD canonically is OG Mel

since OD destroyed the cocoon made by Meliodas.

It hatched

Escanor never fought against OD at noon.

Yh mb i misred

Just as he never talked about emotion. It makes much more sense to be about power.

The litteral panel you’ve sent earlier talks about emotions

Do you realize that these arguments make the weaker archangels have a reduction in scale from the DK?

Yeah that’s the point They were too close to DK/SD

For Tristan to be inferior to the Archangels, Post Revival Demon Mark Meliodas should also be.

He is

Even placing Meliodas well below Tarmiel and Sariel, you get Tristan above them:

Spoiler: Scale

Post-revival Meliodas and Estarossa: 130 Gigatons (High 6-C)
Demon Mark Post-revival Meliodas and Base Tristan: 520 Gigatons (High 6-C+)

Sariel and Tarmiel: 2.6 Teratons (Low 6-B)

True Form Sariel, Tarmiel and Enchantments Tristan, Meliodas AM,True form Ludo, OD, Zeldris, Mael: 5.2 Teratons (Low 6-B+)

The One Escanor: 52 Teratons

Tristan should Scale to the 520 Gigatons value with DM post revival Meliodas.

Not with someone that had a way better feat passively.

I don’t really have Time for all of this so i’ll let you cook and see if It gets accepted

 

[Majinere566]

He basically did way more damage to OD than Escanor ever did

Escanor was using the stored Power in Rhitta when came across the OD. Never used The One

 

[Makai641001]

Escanor was using the stored Power in Rhitta when came across the OD. Never used The One

Yeah i misremembered.

Still there’s a one shot gap between Mael and OD that doesn’t make sense for Tristan to Scale up there but as I said i’ll let him cook

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Still there’s a one shot gap between Mael and OD that doesn’t make sense for Tristan to Scale up

The reason Meliodas AM is 10 times stronger is because of Tristan with enchantments. Mael would need to have a quantifiable feat to scale above.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Attack Potency​

I had this calculation accepted for Behemoth, which now makes everyone who scales to him classified as Low 5-B. I also have this calculation that has a result close to this

In an NNT fanbook, Nakaba says that the knights' ranks are divided by strength; the higher the rank, the stronger the knight.
Jericho, with demon blood, is crystal rank, while Ruin, Golguis and Friesia are two ranks above, so they should scale up to it.

edit: Nakaba says that the commandments do not fall short of the sins.

For the purposes of listing this on the profiles, have the translations been properly verified on site?

 

[Demon_Lord18]

For the purposes of listing this on the profiles, have the translations been properly verified on site?

I only asked for the commandments part to be translated, the ranks thing was dropped.

The translation was the same as the one I provided.

What is your opinion on CRT?

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I only asked for the commandments part to be translated, the ranks thing was dropped.

The translation was the same as the one I provided.

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure

What is your opinion on CRT?

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Wanted to add to my last reply, I would appreciate it if you could translate scab 1 first, since it's the last scan I need translated for my next thread. The rest can wait. 🙏 There are some missing parts and written in a kinda exaggerated style in my opinion(like "everything" is called all...

vsbattles.com

I have only read the OP so far, but if you could provide a summary of what has been discussed, I would appreciate it.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I was asked to comment here. Im not familiar with NNT but the OP looks ok.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I was asked to comment here. Im not familiar with NNT but the OP looks ok.

Now we just have to wait for LephyrTheRevanchist and another 48 hours.

I have only read the OP so far, but if you could provide a summary of what has been discussed, I would appreciate it.

I don't think I can provide a quality summary. You can start from here if you're interested.

 

[Vzearr]

and 2nd Mark is a 4x multiplier.

Scan?

True Form Ludociel Can intercept attacks from the First Demon and some attacks from Zeldris in his second mark. 2c (FTL)

Why is this 2c.

Base Post-Pugatory Meliodas, overpowered Demon Zeldris in his first form. This is the same Demon King that Mael says he couldn't fight against, and 2nd Mark is once again a 4x multiplier. 8c (FTL)

GIMME THE SCANS RAHGHHHHHHHH.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Scan?

This was accepted here.

Why is this 2c.

We see few fusions in NNT; however, in those that involve the addition of one character to another, there is a significant increase in strength and speed, as when Hendrickson 'fuses' with the Grey Demon and blitzes Gilthunder. While in his base form he was easily defeated by Gilthunder, in his red demon blood form he could be easily combated by Meliodas. Gowther could easily dodge his attacks, but upon adding the grey demon blood, he began to trample both, forcing Meliodas to use his demonic mark. We can see the same thing happening when the Spirit of Life becomes one with Percival, he went from being beaten up by Macduff to being much faster than Ironside's attacks.

With that, I think the First Demon should be twice as fast and strong as Chandler and Cusack, since they are literally the two parts of the First Demon who had their body and soul divided.

This is not fusion, but I will include it here. Tarmiel and Sariel were easily being dominated by Estarossa with 3 commandments, but when they went to their real bodies while their minds were confused, they could follow attacks from the same Estarossa without difficulties.

GIMME THE SCANS RAHGHHHHHHHH.

Here

 

[Vzearr]

We see few fusions in NNT; however, in those that involve the addition of one character to another, there is a significant increase in strength and speed, as when Hendrickson 'fuses' with the Grey Demon and blitzes Gilthunder. While in his base form he was easily defeated by Gilthunder, in his red demon blood form he could be easily combated by Meliodas. Gowther could easily dodge his attacks, but upon adding the grey demon blood, he began to trample both, forcing Meliodas to use his demonic mark. We can see the same thing happening when the Spirit of Life becomes one with Percival, he went from being beaten up by Macduff to being much faster than Ironside's attacks.

With that, I think the First Demon should be twice as fast and strong as Chandler and Cusack, since they are literally the two parts of the First Demon who had their body and soul divided.

This is not fusion, but I will include it here. Tarmiel and Sariel were easily being dominated by Estarossa with 3 commandments, but when they went to their real bodies while their minds were confused, they could follow attacks from the same Estarossa without difficulties.

Non existent multiplier. Made up.

This was accepted here.

I see.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Massive strength means that the Demon King has a great amount of force, not that his punches need to be at maximum power or close to it to be classified as Low 5-B. Besides, the Demon King never holds back.

Moments earlier, he was attacking to kill Elizabeth; it doesn't make sense for him to hold back against the others.

Mael should scale

Zeldris definitely does not need a new key

No, we achieved similar, if not identical, results using other methods, so this is not inconsistent.

Elizabeth can harm DKZ in its first form. She, Meliodas, Mael, and Ludociel are said to be equal in power. Fraudrin states that Meliodas regained his magic power from when he was the leader of the Ten Commandments. This can be confirmed by seeing that Meliodas and Estarossa (Mael without the grace) have the same power level, 60k. Meliodas could not destroy Melascula's cocoon with his second mark. Estarossa, with one commandment, was relative to the archangels in their vessels. And the other commandments could keep up a fight against those archangels(Chapter 205 to 206). This is more consistent than the Demon King, for an unknown reason, holding back, and the characters of Small Country level being able to resist attacks and injure level 5 characters, who have a difference of more than 4.32e+8 times greater.

This would only be true if Meliodas were not comparable to Mael.

Not really, the power of hope gives a monstrous boost to Percival

Will reply to your arguments later was kind of busy IRL and other stuff.

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure


I have only read the OP so far, but if you could provide a summary of what has been discussed, I would appreciate it.

I was asked to comment here. Im not familiar with NNT but the OP looks ok.

We are still discussing regarding which characters needs to scale to 5-B value

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Massive strength means that the Demon King has a great amount of force, not that his punches need to be at maximum power or close to it to be classified as Low 5-B. Besides, the Demon King never holds back.

Moments earlier, he was attacking to kill Elizabeth; it doesn't make sense for him to hold back against the others.

We know that when he took over Zeldris, he got beaten by Elizabeth for underestimating her. So, we have a fair reason to assume he wasn’t fighting at the same level as when he put Behemoth to sleep, which should be stronger than Zeldris himself based on his own statement.

Only Ban (Post-Purgatory) and King have decent feats for scaling to the Demon King here. The others were brushed aside. Surviving an attack with severe injuries is not the same as scaling to characters who were not using the same level of strength in certain feats. There is no reason to assume everyone scales to the same level. We know that not every Sin scales to each other.

Mael should scale

Zeldris definitely does not need a new key

Maybe they should scale.

but I disagree with Tristan's scaling. He has no feats that place him on the same level as Demon King—unless I’m missing something.

You can scale him to AM Meli but definitely that's not helping with DK and Behemoth scaling.

1) He was able to match Lancelot
2) He was able to survive it long enough to regen
3) The goddess physiologies are linked to their Power lvls and Nanashi have waaaaay stronger healing and light magic.

Let's not forget Lancelot SR should be powerful due to stronger weapon which could contain his power. (Logically speaking)

 

[Makai641001]

We know that when he took over Zeldris, he got beaten by Elizabeth for underestimating her. So, we have a fair reason to assume he wasn’t fighting at the same level as when he put Behemoth to sleep, which should be stronger than Zeldris himself based on his own statement.

Makes sense

Only Ban (Post-Purgatory) and King have decent feats for scaling to the Demon King here.

Ban King Escanor Meliodas Elisabeth and Merlin should Scale to the value of uncomplete DK Mel/Zel in their EOS NNT keys

All of them except Merlin damaged him.

Merlin damaged Cath which is « above Gods »

Meliodas Escanor and Merlin should scale to complete DK Zel

The others were brushed aside. Surviving an attack with severe injuries is not the same as scaling to characters who were not using the same level of strength in certain feats. There is no reason to assume everyone scales to the same level. We know that not every Sin scales to each other.

Diane and Gowther should not scale to DK

Maybe they should scale.

Mael can for being close to Elisabeth (he is a bit weaker)

but I disagree with Tristan's scaling. He has no feats that place him on the same level as Demon King—unless I’m missing something.

He should scale to DM2 Meliodas pre purgatory

You can scale him to AM Meli but definitely that's not helping with DK and Behemoth scaling.

AM Meli has a better feat passively it’s safer to scale Tristan to the DM2 value

Let's not forget Lancelot SR should be powerful due to stronger weapon which could contain his power. (Logically speaking)

Yeah and he did it with Nanashi’s sword which can contain It all while Tristan get One tap constantly by a non lethal SR with weak weapons

 

[Demon_Lord18]

We know that when he took over Zeldris, he got beaten by Elizabeth for underestimating her. So, we have a fair reason to assume he wasn’t fighting at the same level as when he put Behemoth to sleep, which should be stronger than Zeldris himself based on his own statement.

These are totally different things; in one case, he's fighting against, and in the other, he's using someone as a shield. If he were fighting against Elizabeth, he would go all out. But for him, it was more beneficial to use her as a shield, and he said that Ark couldn't do anything against him (which happened), there was no underestimation. Elizabeth had to use another technique from Ark to damage him.

Only Ban (Post-Purgatory) and King have decent feats for scaling to the Demon King here.

No, many others scale.

Here I go again showing that it's much more consistent for them to receive a downgrade from the DK than to scale millions of times below.

Elizabeth can seriously injure DK Zel, who is slightly inferior to DK Mel. Indura Derieri and Monspiet, without being fully grown, can resist Elizabeth's light, even though she divided her power between the two. Chimera Indura and Baruja should at least scale up to Derieri and Monspiet, as they are complete Induras. Dalia took a shot at Baruja, and Zeldris could hold his own in a fight with him and destroy his sacred spear.

Surviving an attack with severe injuries is not the same as scaling to characters who were not using the same level of strength in certain feats. There is no reason to assume everyone scales to the same level. We know that not every Sin scales to each other.

No one suffered serious damage from the Demon King's attacks, and Diane and Gowther withstood the Supreme Deity's attack well. There's nothing implying that the King was holding back; on the contrary, moments before, he was attacking to kill.

Maybe they should scale.

but I disagree with Tristan's scaling. He has no feats that place him on the same level as Demon King—unless I’m missing something.

He is not on the same level as the Demon King.

Let's not forget Lancelot SR should be powerful due to stronger weapon which could contain his power.

Dude... This kind of helps my scale. Nanashi, a character inferior to an Archangel, is able to hold his own in a fight against Lancelot, who was previously fighting against Arthur. In other words, we have many more feats supporting the characters receiving a downgrade from the DK than them being thousands of times weaker.

 

[Makai641001]

These are totally different things; in one case, he's fighting against, and in the other, he's using someone as a shield. If he were fighting against Elizabeth, he would go all out. But for him, it was more beneficial to use her as a shield, and he said that Ark couldn't do anything against him (which happened), there was no underestimation. Elizabeth had to use another technique from Ark to damage him.


No, many others scale.

Here I go again showing that it's much more consistent for them to receive a downgrade from the DK than to scale millions of times below.

Elizabeth can seriously injure DK Zel, who is slightly inferior to DK Mel. Indura Derieri and Monspiet, without being fully grown, can resist Elizabeth's light, even though she divided her power between the two.

Then the value should be divided

Chimera Indura and Baruja should at least scale up to Derieri and Monspiet, as they are complete Induras.

So half of dk Zel value

Dalia took a shot at Baruja, and Zeldris could hold his own in a fight with him and destroy his sacred spear.

Still half of dk value

No one suffered serious damage from the Demon King's attacks, and Diane and Gowther withstood the Supreme Deity's attack well.

Her thunder can basically two tap them except ban lol despite Diane’s protection

There's nothing implying that the King was holding back; on the contrary, moments before, he was attacking to kill.

He is not on the same level as the Demon King.

Dude... This kind of helps my scale. Nanashi, a character inferior to an Archangel,

Can you Send the raw for this ?

is able to hold his own in a fight against Lancelot, who was previously fighting against Arthur. In other words, we have many more feats supporting the characters receiving a downgrade from the DK than them being thousands of times weaker.

He got cooked tho

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Her thunder can basically two tap them except ban lol despite Diane’s protection

She only used the lightning rod in the first attack and it couldn't absorb all the energy. In the second and third attacks, she tanked without using anything.

Can you Send the raw for this ?

No, the website I used to get the raws of the volumes went down.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Non existent multiplier. Made up.

Cusack dominated Ludociel in Margaret's body with Flash. He and Chandler are said to be very fast and strong. Cusack and Chandler fuse and return to their original form, and Ludociel, in his true body, can keep up with them before the crisis. The fusion is Chandler + Cusack, and as shown before, it significantly increases speed and strength, so it would be fair for Ludociel to be 2x fast in his true body.

What is your opinion on CRT?

 

[Majinere566]

Cusack dominated Ludociel in Margaret's body with Flash. He and Chandler are said to be very fast and strong. Cusack and Chandler fuse and return to their original form, and Ludociel, in his true body, can keep up with them before the crisis. The fusion is Chandler + Cusack, and as shown before, it significantly increases speed and strength, so it would be fair for Ludociel to be 2x fast in his true body.

What is your opinion on CRT?

It needs to be a stated multiplier or it won’t be accepted.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

These are totally different things; in one case, he's fighting against, and in the other, he's using someone as a shield. If he were fighting against Elizabeth, he would go all out. But for him, it was more beneficial to use her as a shield, and he said that Ark couldn't do anything against him (which happened), there was no underestimation. Elizabeth had to use another technique from Ark to damage him.

She using different techniques doesn't disapprove DK still underestimating her. Meliodas clearly points that out.

No, many others scale.

Here I go again showing that it's much more consistent for them to receive a downgrade from the DK than to scale millions of times below.

Elizabeth can seriously injure DK Zel, who is slightly inferior to DK Mel. Indura Derieri and Monspiet, without being fully grown, can resist Elizabeth's light, even though she divided her power between the two. Chimera Indura and Baruja should at least scale up to Derieri and Monspiet, as they are complete Induras. Dalia took a shot at Baruja, and Zeldris could hold his own in a fight with him and destroy his sacred spear.

I'll get back on DK Zel scale when I have time but I'll just address until DK Meli part and AM Meli and Tristan scaling you come up with.

Sure Elizabeth scales to that no one else.

No one suffered serious damage from the Demon King's attacks, and Diane and Gowther withstood the Supreme Deity's attack well. There's nothing implying that the King was holding back; on the contrary, moments before, he was attacking to kill.

We do see them getting cooked pretty hard. Only King was tired due to his lack of Magic.zhz

He is not on the same level as the Demon King.

Then he doesn’t scale. Also, I went back and checked the chapter regarding Melascula’s cocoon—guess what I found? You are ignoring the context and just pushing the scaling for Tristan. AM Meliodas did break the cocoon easily, so there is no scaling to get from that. He was still not at OG Meliodas' level. It's also stated he could solo 7DS with that power when he was OG Meliodas. Merlin also confirmed Escanor can't win against OG Meliodas.

Hence, Tristan breaking the cocoon isn’t a good feat for argument. Also, do you have any scans proving that being amped by Chaos brings characters to around DK level? Why are you assuming Melascula had the same level of power or even higher?

Dude... This kind of helps my scale. Nanashi, a character inferior to an Archangel, is able to hold his own in a fight against Lancelot, who was previously fighting against Arthur. In other words, we have many more feats supporting the characters receiving a downgrade from the DK than them being thousands of times weaker.

No, it doesn’t. Nanashi’s sword’s SR output should be way higher than any other weapon Lancelot has used. Tristan gets smoked by normal weapons’ SR.

Yeah and he did it with Nanashi’s sword which can contain It all while Tristan get One tap constantly by a non lethal SR with weak weapons

 

[Majinere566]

I’m so confused right now, what is being Argued?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I’m so confused right now, what is being Argued?

Tristan 5-B rating.
OP is arguing that he should scale to it with Tristan scaling to AM Meli due to not being able to break Melascula Cocoon which is false.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

She using different techniques doesn't disapprove DK still underestimating her. Meliodas clearly points that out.

If we ignore the context, this makes sense. At no point did he consider attacking or fighting Elizabeth, so this is irrelevant.

We do see them getting cooked pretty hard. Only King was tired due to his lack of Magic.zhz

Diane had a minor head bleed, and Mael did not have any serious injuries.

Then he doesn’t scale.

This is not an argument, and our wiki says otherwise. So next time, I will simply ignore it when your argument is: 'It's not the same, so it doesn't scale.' The wiki allows Dowscaling, so it scales.

Also, I went back and checked the chapter regarding Melascula’s cocoon—guess what I found? You are ignoring the context and just pushing the scaling for Tristan. AM Meliodas did break the cocoon easily, so there is no scaling to get from that. He was still not at OG Meliodas' level. It's also stated he could solo 7DS with that power when he was OG Meliodas. Merlin also confirmed Escanor can't win against OG Meliodas.

What context am I ignoring? Dude, I'll say it again because you might not have seen it: Meliodas AM is only quantifiable (10 times stronger) because of Tristan. Tristan does not scale to AM, it's exactly the opposite, AM scales to Tristan because he doesn't have a quantifiable feat on his own. The scan you're using to say this shows that he became stronger than ever before. Yes, that Escanor outside of The One couldn't beat Meliodas, that's already known.

Also, do you have any scans proving that being amped by Chaos brings characters to around DK level? Why are you assuming Melascula had the same level of power or even higher?

She is not at the level of the DK, this has never been argued by me or anyone here. Cath, with a fragment of Chaos, equaled Meliodas' second mark, although this is irrelevant here, since Chaos Melascula scales to Base Tristan.

No, it doesn’t. Nanashi’s sword’s SR output should be way higher than any other weapon Lancelot has used. Tristan gets smoked by normal weapons’ SR.

Yes, this matters and supports the argument that everyone should be downgraded from the DK. Tristan did not get nearly killed like Nanashi, and Lancelot made that attack with a sword created by Chaos, it's not a normal sword.

Tristan 5-B rating.
OP is arguing that he should scale to it with Tristan scaling to AM Meli due to not being able to break Melascula Cocoon which is false.

Strawman fallacy. I NEVER said that Meliodas AM couldn't destroy the cocoon.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

It needs to be a stated multiplier or it won’t be accepted.

Yeah

 

[Makai641001]

She only used the lightning rod in the first attack and it couldn't absorb all the energy.

It absorbed some and King had his pollen garden too

In the second

The second lightning wasn’t « God’s Thunder » the sky didn’t turn red

and third attacks,

The third put them to the ground iirc

she tanked without using anything.

No, the website I used to get the raws of the volumes went down.

Oh if anyone has It i’ll translate It

 

[Makai641001]

It needs to be a stated multiplier or it won’t be accepted.

Addition of power isn’t a « multiplier » it can get accepted (and It was lol)

Diane had a minor head bleed, and Mael did not have any serious injuries.

The panel says otherwise

What context am I ignoring? Dude, I'll say it again because you might not have seen it: Meliodas AM is only quantifiable (10 times stronger) because of Tristan. Tristan does not scale to AM, it's exactly the opposite, AM scales to Tristan because he doesn't have a quantifiable feat on his own.

He did the same as Tristan despite not having light magic and passively

Tristan has a better feat than DM2 Meliodas

The scan you're using to say this shows that he became stronger than ever before.

They don’t talk about his OG self they talk about the Meliodas they know

Yes, that Escanor outside of The One couldn't beat Meliodas, that's already known.

She is not at the level of the DK, this has never been argued by me or anyone here. Cath, with a fragment of Chaos, equaled Meliodas' second mark, although this is irrelevant here, since Chaos Melascula scales to Base Tristan

Cath absorbed a whole arm Chaos just give Small parts of his Powers to his subordinates

Yes, this matters and supports the argument that everyone should be downgraded from the DK. Tristan did not get nearly killed like Nanashi,

Lancelot wouldn’t risk killing him lol

and Lancelot made that attack with a sword created by Chaos, it's not a normal sword.

Sword that can regen but still couldn’t deploy the entire SR power without breaking