Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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I added References to the Galaxy Team page! Even though most of the stuff you ever find out about them is at the start of the game...
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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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Does the Galaxy Team page look good enough to post?
Ghengiroo115
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Depending on what the consensus on using Masters is, I’m not sure about that note on the bottom of the page about Rei and Akari. However regardless of how we go about it I do think they should still be mentioned on the profile, as they’re members of the Galaxy Team for the entire game and only get separated after the events of Legends Arceus. I don’t believe we actually see the Galaxy Team outside of LA (could be wrong though), so it seems weird to not include characters that are only separated from them in a game the organisation as a whole isn’t in.
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I dont see the exact proof where Zisu, Beni and Kamado actually took one Dialga or Palkia canonically. Just cause they can battle Rei doesnt necessarily prove in-canon they faced them, which feels kind of weird to scale to. Especially if you arent actually including the characters that would actually own Palkia/Dialga
If we rely on game mechanics, even a tackle from a Caterpie can hurt a Dialga/Palkia. So we cant confuse their lore-power to their game stats since they're clearly not representative of the gap in power.
If we rely on game mechanics, even a tackle from a Caterpie can hurt a Dialga/Palkia. So we cant confuse their lore-power to their game stats since they're clearly not representative of the gap in power.
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Well no cause theres no direct confirmation that Palkia and Dialga are used in those battles themselves.
Also it would make like, 0 sense for the random trainers to be matching to Multiverse levels of power with their basic pokemon, when Palkia and Dialga are clearly two huge titans of this game whose power is relied upon. Doesn't seem too genuine
We aint ever calling a Caterpie Multiverse level cmon now, or scaling it to a Dialga/Palkia just cause it was trained.
We shouldn't be using the battle game mechanics to determine if a Pokemon can harm another one lore-wise, otherwise literally every pokemon can hurt every pokemon.
Eden_Warlock99
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Refer to this thread.
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This is certainly...a choice?
Feels like people just really want 2-A trainers too desperately. Like, feels like its impossible to be reasonable with Pokemon here.
Idm when it comes to trainers who have obviously fought and battled legendaries, but in Legends Arceus, the battle system is different, since pokemon are quite literal boss battles where you're only hitting them with balms to calm them down lbr lol. Idk why we treating the rando NPCs with no direct confirmation they actually battled the pokemon that makes Rei/Akira 2-A.
Feel like it diminishes the actual...power difference Dialga and Palkia clearly have as worshipped Gods.
Bobsican
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I'd think the AP section could use more elaboration on the justifications, namely on the upscaling and going more in depth for the calculations used to reach such tiers.
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I also think it dubious to call being sent to Masters: Ex "being sent to the main game timeline", when, as has been shown, calling Masters: Ex, with its different mechanics & seemingly different history & whatnot.... Well, it seems contentious.
Also, why not Rei/Akari, given the player character can be either of them?
From summary: "Hundreds of years ago,"
Dubious.
Laventon takes photos with a camera, the design & photo quality of which suggests equivalent to early 1900s technologies. IIRC, the existence of household electricity in some places would corroborate that evidence.
Plus, IIRC, there's other stuff that makes it resemble... I think it's called Meiji Era Japan, which would be around a similar time?
Unless you think Pokemon World is just THAT advanced that they were getting such tech centuries ago. But hundreds of years ago, was, IIRC, when first Apricorn Balls were made, but I doubt they're that new, considering Laventon brought Pokemon from overseas. If Poke Balls were that new, while amateurism in a remote settlement could be excused, surely there'd be mention of them being a new technology made in the last few years, or that they're popular overseas.
I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure what Path of Tenacity is. Why doesn't it have a section in the Technology/Abilities section?
"Wall level+ (Galaxy Team's citizens shouldn’t be overwhelmingly below modern day Pokémon humans, though they view nearly all fodder Pokémon as a threat to their life[4])"
Uncertain if "fodder Pokémon" is proper terminology here. Maybe "nearly all Pokémon"? Maybe "all Pokémon, even weak Pokémon"? Maybe "all wild Pokémon" or "untrained Pokémon"?
(Not to mention by meaning, it could be taken to interpret they view all fodder Pokemon, but not non-fodder Pokemon as threats.)
Anyone have thoughts on potential rephrasings, please?
"Multi-City Block level for most members (Akari was seen as one of the Survey Corps’ best members when she only had a fodder Pikachu)"
Similar issue.
Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (Zisu, Beni, and Captain Kamado's Pokémon are capable of injuring Rei's team at its most powerful, which includes an extremely heavily trained Dialga or Palkia and other Pokémon who have been trained to be on par with them[5])
While it is certain that Rei/Akari catch Dialga & Palkia, what makes it certain it's "extremely heavily trained", as opposed to say "potentially" so trained, given we accept stuff like Selene/Elio being able to beat Rainbow Rocket & other examples? & why such a phrasing of the justification? Would "masterfully trained" or such be inaccurate?
I suppose that begs the question of how Arceus describes what status to achieve. Does it tell Rei/Akari to become a "Pokemon Master", for example?
"However, once he stepped in and sorted out all their problems himself, their selection and means of creating such goods vastly increased, and can now develop a large array of equipment and healing items."
Again, is it certain it's Rei rather than Akari, given the player character's canonical identity is likely indeterminate?
"The Medical Corps is capable of crafting medicine for just about anything imaginable[6], even ones strong enough to outright remove a Psyduck's headache for a while[7]"
This phrasing may be overestimating of the capabilities, since all we have is it curing Psyduck headaches & its description of "An astonishing medicine that can instantly restore health to any Pokémon. It is produced by an apothecary in Cianwood City.".
It may also be worth citing Pokedex entries or other information on why curing a Psyduck's headache, even "for a while" is a notable accomplishment.
"Weaknesses: The vast majority of people in the Galaxy Team are largely incompetent and dependent on Rei in order to make progress, and they only got to where they are by the end of the game because all their victories were basically handed to them by the player."
Somewhat informal language, worried it may be improper & the image only indicates Rei/Akari/the player character did so for Kleavor & Lilligant, even if knowledgeable members like us may know otherwise. Is there other info we can cite as evidence for this?
Apologies for going back to the Technology/Abilities section, but I felt it worthwhile due to my stance regarding this: "minor Information Analysis via the Pokédex".
Do members of Galaxy Team other than Laventon have a Pokedex?
Do Rei/Akari/the player character have one?
Also, IIRC, is the Pokedex in PL:A not simply a notepad/journal handwritten by Laventon?
Does having a bunch of likely pre-written notes & possibly photographs count as Information Analysis, especially when they may not have even been made by the wielder?
Sorry about how long that was. Otherwise, it looks nice so far!
Hopefully this is appreciable, helpful &/or interesting!
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Ghengiroo115
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You still battle Dialga/Palkia with Pokémon, and iirc you can choose to battle the Origin formes with them too. Rei/Akari’s Pokémon would scale to Tier 2 in general since lore-wise they fight D/P with their standard Pokémon.
Also I don’t remember if the Path of Tenacity is after the Volo fight or not (if not then ignore this), but if it is then the player also battles Giratina.
That being said with how Hisui era trainers are mostly meant to be a bit incompetent compared to modern day trainers, it is strange for them to be Creation Trio level.
Might be based on which role Masters gives the two of them, though I’ve never played so I might be wrong.
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Its how RPG are in game mechanics, and if it follows the sequence of the story sure. Just because you can make a Caterpie level 100 and have its tackle 'hurt' a Legendary or smthn, theres just like, no way we're gonna act like its that powerful just cause of game mechanics. Otherwise you might as well go ahead and make every character/Pokemon in this series in the Tier 2s lol.
But if it doesnt allign with lore, and theres no confirmation Rei/Akira used the power of the Gods of SpaceTime just to spar with a few of these members, are ergo somehow they have the same levels of power they were trying to get Palkia/Dialga for then its like...?
Idk, feels like we're just really trying to max out the explanations just to try and get even the most rando trainers on Victory road or smthn to Multiverse level.
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Yeah, they can. Rei/Akira can most definitely scale to that, esp if in lore they're also being blessed by Arceus. Volo as well since he literally commands Giratina.
Its just weird to try and count characters like Beni or smthn, just cause of post-game sparring battles and no confirmation Rei/Akira is using the exact pokemon that get them to Tier 2 against them. It fr just doesnt make sense and feels like we're just giving these characters the stats solely so they are more powerful on the site
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Argument from incredulity.
Given that they are specifically under the MC's training, why not?
Why not?
You clearly are not familiar with RPGs, at all.
It's just how they're treated here, you can't just challenge this only because "it feels wrong" lol.
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Agreed. Trained Pokemon can get that high because the trainers, protagonists/player characters in particular, are especially exceptional trainers.
The same is not so certain for every member of the Galaxy Team, I would assume. We may need to seek out dialogue to assess how they fared, I wonder.
& while it may be OoC, it is possible the player character held back, or didn't have their Pokemon use their full strength.
IDK what the deal with Beni in postgame is, but it may be worth it to check the dialogue if story progression isn't sufficiently clarifying enough on comparability.
I dislike the notion of determining which of the indeterminate identities of the player characters was involved in the story based on Masters Ex, which may not even be the same timeline/reality.
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No, just basic common sense tbh
Saying stuff like 'Caterpie can compare to Arceus' is why ppl think this site is bogus.
Cause its a caterpie probably? Can we deadass not.
Cause theres clearly a power difference between the God of Time/Space and a common bug in-universe?
But thats not important if we desperately want to wank ngl.
??? Redditor moment
Yeah, cause its pretty wrong and obvious wank to try and make every character here Tier 2.
Like deadass you are trying to argue why a Caterpie could be Tier 2. Based on game levelling mechanics. Game lore and Game Mechanics are two things you should NOT get confused. Not even the profiles go this far.
Ghengiroo115
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Yeah, in this case I’m leaning more towards them not scaling. In other cases of post-game rematches there’s usually good enough reason for them to scale to the protagonist’s main story feats, but since Hisui era trainers are meant to be less capable it’s weird to scale them to the Multiversal stuff. I don’t really mind either way though.
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What anti feats would our Caterpie have to contradict it, Mr. Common sense?
Womp womp womp
A common bug that got under training*
It got a justification for the boost, it's enough.
Pot calling the kettle black
Good luck with the downgrade (but I bet you're gonna say something like "I actually don't care!", but will proceed to ***** endlessly about it here)
I see no contradictions, and nothing says a Caterpie cannot be that strong.
Eden_Warlock99
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I mean, a Pikachu is the strongest mon Red (Who's up there as one of the strongest trainers) has.
Even in the anime, we got stuff like Cynthia's Garchomp just matching Palkia's Spatial Rend.
The scaling is bogus is in a similar sense as like, Krillin fighting on-par with Goku or Yamcha becoming stronger than SPC, but like, it still happened and has no contradictions.
It's fiction and the creators obviously didn't think it was that big of deal, what are ya gonna do.
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Pardon my pickyness, please, but CTRL+F finds, prior to my typing this, 8 results for "Akira", half of which are yours & the other half are in quoted posts of yours.
Rei's counterpart is named Akari, not Akira.
I hope you find this appreciable, thank you very much for any time, effort or consideration given to this, & sorry for any bother.
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Pikachu and Garchomp are different to Caterpie. Pikachu in itself as the Pokemon mascot has more than enough to prove it can reach to absurd levels over other pokemon. Garchomp as Cynthia's ace, who as the regional champion for the strongest lore-region in the verse, being able to show a direct feat in the anime most definitely proves it. The fact Piplup, Croagunk and Pikachu couldnt block the same tier of move Garchomp could only proves it further
And as much as this wiki wants to deny it, Anime and Games are separate continuity.
Well no, cause DBZ power levels are just like that. idk if Yamcha truly is stronger tbf but Goku can modify his power level easily to match his opponent if he needs to. Theres at least explanations for that.
For a stretching caterpie argument though, you are solely relying on game mechanics. Which...we shouldnt do?
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Irrelevant.
Like i don't know why you think pointing this out like this matters and having to go 'uhm according to my calculations!' is nothing but ragebait
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This dude is stupid
This dude is stupid
Yeah except im not going 'Heh, CLEARLY you do not KNOW what an RPG is!!!".
Theres no point in downgrading when theres ppl like you who deadass believe Caterpie is Tier 2 just cause its trained, and will fight tooth and nail to die on this hill for the sake of saving face
I dont need to downgrade anything either way. Caterpie isnt Tier 2 on this wiki lmfao
Have you maybe considered its cause you're purposefully being stupid?
And you're also trying to wank Pokemon to its unbelievable high-ends and cant consider the criticality.
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Cynthia would have a different page for her appearance in games, one for Anime, and one for whatever Mangas lmfao
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Either refute it, or don't waste my time through spamming incredulity.
What would contradict it, Mr. Common Sense?
Because it's a wild one. But under the right trainer? Def can be Tier 2.
I just scale things right, logically an in an unbiased way.
2016 mindset. Go away.
Eden_Warlock99
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Aside from it being Red's main, what has Pikachu really done (In the games) that'd make it a special case compared to other Pokemon?
Ig there's the Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee and you are intented to just use Pikachu to beat the game in Pokemon Yellow, but nothing really says that's because of Pikachu itself and not just like, it being trained really well? Which can apply to every other Pokemon?
Besides, the whole Caterpie point is a false analogy in the first place. Every Path of Tenacity trainer is using fully-evolved mons.
If Elite Four Members/Champions (Who also just use regular mons) can scale to the Creation Trio through sheer training or whatever, why can't these guys?
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Either refute it, or don't waste my time through spamming incredulity.
What would contradict it, Mr. Common Sense?
Because it's a wild one. But under the right trainer? Def can be Tier 2.
I just scale things right, logically an in an unbiased way.
2016 mindset. Go away.
How can i possibly refute 'Caterpie doesn't scale to Arceus' to you?
You clearly aren't reasonable enough to consider anything otherwise, tell me why i should waste my time?
No cause its kinda sad that Pokemon on this verse is run by so many ppl that just want to wank it to unbelievable high-ends. To the point they will genuinely think a caterpie that a trainer owns can scale to Tier 2
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Simple, tell me why OBJECTIVELY it can't.
You just spam "it can't be because I say so" in many variations.
Wanks you cannot refute sadly.
Go back to r/characterrant. This line of thought belongs there, not here.
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It has its own Z Move, Gigantimax, Its a Starter pokemon in itself and it gets all the spotlight it can?
Far more than your regular unevolved Pokemon.
Okay, tell it to this dude then who deadass thinks any Pokemon trained by a pokemon that can 'battle Rei/Akira' can scale to Tier 2.
Cause theres a difference between regular trainers and the Elite Four/Champions yeah. Its also game mechanics in terms of Pokemon levels and such as to why their pokemon are 'stronger' and such. Not a trainer with a caterpie lmao
We're considering lore wise.
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Considering Akari's use as part of the AP justification for the Galaxy Team WIP profile that this discussion centers around, & their prominent membership & featuring in said group, I would disagree.
However, perhaps it would be more "productive" for you & me to agree to disagree on this matter.
& yet you argue on this Wiki, where the continuity stance you disagree with is accepted, arguing against its use.
(Also, Youngster Tristan who challenges the Alola Champion with an Emolga as his lead in both S/M & US/UM.)
Dubious claim, it's regularly established the player character & their Pokemon are prodigious & overwhelmingly strong.
It's not that any Caterpie can achieve this, it's that one with a good enough trainer & training can, & the typical individual of the species is not so exceptional.
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Its a first stage pokemon you find in a common route and not even fully evolved?
And Arceus is the God?
Just because it can deal 1HP to it in the games does NOT mean it scales. And theres no example of a trainer-owned Caterpie that can scale to the MC'
I spam 'ur stupid' because yeah, it goes without saying. I shoudn't have to entertain your bs.
You cant 'refute' wanks, because the person doing the wanking is just...impossible to talk sense to
Vs Battles Wiki is universally not trusted outside this site lmfao, get your superiority complex outta here.
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At his weakest, not at his strongest!
Many fictions scale to God too.
Who said that? I talk about Caterpies owned by the MC here.
So why are you here? To instigate us because "lol this website is full of wankers"?
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The way i pronounce her name and you needing to call it out is irrelevant yeah. You're obviously tryna stir the pot. It doesn't matter if i dont recall her canon name to the exact tee.
The continuity stance is clearly so you can mix and match/cherry-pick the best parts of profiles to wank Pokemon to composite levels of power lets be deadass. No amount of 'downgrade threads' or actual reasoning is gonna get through when THIS many people want to desperately combine the separate canons, and od stuff like treat Pokemon Go as a valid scaling source.
I take comfort in knowing literally every other place outside of this site agrees the way Pokemon is scaled in this series is bs.
I get its a difficult verse to scale, but the Anime and Games are NOT the same continuity. Like, lets start with that. It can perhaps be used as supplementary material to explain more abt the species like the Palafin episode but otherwise theres no way we should slap it all in one profile
Okay go make a Youngster Tristan profile or smthn, otherwise get to the point
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Okay but somehow you think the level 2 Caterpie in viridian forest can scale mmk
Theres no canon Caterpie owned by the MC.
Bro is acc spamming wojak memes and then acting like he isnt being a redditor rn
Cause i like the verse, and sadly VSBW is the best way to casually relay the basic info abt scaling a character. Ive bene on VSBW for ages and love the concept, but its everything said about it is true sadly. Even when you acknowledge ppl will never agree on scaling, but wanking should be obvious
But Pokemon on this wiki is outdated, unorganised and ingenuine right now with a flawed sense of compositing. And theres 0 chance of getting something through to changing that when people need to make outrageous claims. I'd love to help, but when we've deadass got arguments about how you can scale a Caterpie to God just because you have a choice in the game to raise a caterpie to level 100 or smthn, and have it deal 10 damage to God via game mechanics, then it just goes to show its a lost cause.
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That no, but leveled up under us? For sure it can!
There no canon Pokémon owned by MCs, the point of the games is that you can clear the game with whatever team you want.
A lot of people who think Arceus is Tier 5 at max also say that.
You know that this is not the only wiki existing, right?
Bro who TF cares about your echo chambers. Go to talk there not here if this place is so ass.
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Trained Pokémon can place where-the-****-ever you damn well please, because at the end of the day, arguing consistency for something that is inherently incredibly inconsistent and case-by-case is the second dumbest thing you've ever done besides trying to argue general scaling for a verse where the scaling is based off of the lore!
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No, it cant. You're confusing game mechanics for the actual lore.
Yeah (and thats why MC profiles are dumb OC-pages if we deadass are trying to make them), but doesnt mean you can just make up these Tier 2 Caterpies cause you're jsut smoking crack atp
And yeah, there are canon owned pokemon, such as Lucario in XY, the mandatory legendary catches etc.
Yeah and thats downplay? I dont think that whatsoever
I just think its dumb to try and scale regular ass pokemon to true-Arceus levels of power we've had to gather from mutliple sources just cause their Rattata can Hyper fang half of its health in a game.
Yeah, it is. The only relevant one. I'll hazard a guess ive been here longer too so idk what you're tryna convince me to do exactly
VSBW is the biggest echo chamber ever plz
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Look whose tryna pipe in now lmfaoooo
Go find some friends or smthn bro, you aint got a clue abt this verse or how to scale it genuinely
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
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I honestly think the only way to deal with this guy is the Rule Violations thread tbh. He's made it clear that he doesn't respect us or our time and has derailed our threads way too many times by complaining about how we do things and being disingenuous once we tell him why.
