Minecraft CRT: Silverfish downgrade.

[Colgato]

A lot of the Minecraft articles reference the supposed durability of a Silverfish, and it seems clear that this durability is not demonstrated anywhere in game.
Silverfish (Article)
For one, the ability of the Silverfish to rupture the block has no impact on its durability. It isn't surviving another silverfish doing this attack to it, and it isn't doing this attack to itself, it's doing it to the block. And the method through which this attack occurs is not reliable enough to be the basis for numerous other articles. For one, the block isn't solid. The Silverfish has already burrowed into it, meaning the block has less internal volume and integrity. The Silverfish isn't violently rupturing the block, it's cracking the block from the inside like an egg, after already hollowing it out.
Basing the stats of every other mob off this one mob's dubious capabilities and a made up assumption about it's durability derived from this dubious attack potency is irresponsible and something that needs to be re-evaluated.

 

[Vzearr]

A lot of the Minecraft articles reference the supposed durability of a Silverfish, and it seems clear that this durability is not demonstrated anywhere in game.
Silverfish (Article)
For one, the ability of the Silverfish to rupture the block has no impact on its durability. It isn't surviving another silverfish doing this attack to it, and it isn't doing this attack to itself, it's doing it to the block. And the method through which this attack occurs is not reliable enough to be the basis for numerous other articles. For one, the block isn't solid. The Silverfish has already burrowed into it, meaning the block has less internal volume and integrity. The Silverfish isn't violently rupturing the block, it's cracking the block from the inside like an egg, after already hollowing it out.
Basing the stats of every other mob off this one mob's dubious capabilities and a made up assumption about it's durability derived from this dubious attack potency is irresponsible and something that needs to be re-evaluated.

I'm unsure, don't they just break the block without hollowing it out? Where does it say they hollow it out?

 

[Colgato]

I'm unsure, don't they just break the block without hollowing it out? Where does it say they hollow it out?

they spawn from the block while breaking it, meaning they were inside the block, and broke it in the process of coming out of the block.

 

[Vzearr]

they spawn from the block while breaking it, meaning they were inside the block, and broke it in the process of coming out of the block.

Ah I see, fair then I suppose.

 

[Arkansalter2]

It basically seems like an oversight. Breaking a cubic meter of stone isn't really a durability feat, while it's more of an AP feat.

I think it needs to be reworded into something like "Should be comparable to The Player. Can survive The Player's hits, who can destroy cubic meters of rock and wood over several punches".

 

[Arkansalter2]

@Mr. Bambu what do you think about this?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Regular members can't ping others, you'll have to contact him on his message wall.

@Mr. Bambu what do you think about this?

 

[Arkansalter2]

Regular members can't ping others, you'll have to contact him on his message wall.

Oh got it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually, this is a reasonable take. The silverfish does burrow in first and then ruptures out. It can do this fairly quickly, so it is still a feat and probably still lands in 9-A, but a calc made with reasonable assumptions could be made to more appropriately deal with the feat.

Something like one cubic meter minus 1-2x Silverfish body volume stone destroyed, as per the current calc, seems appropriate.

 

[TheGatememer]

Funny enough, I called that feat a few years back. Still 9-A, just lower.

Some Minecraft Calcs

vsbattles.fandom.com

EDIT: On second thought, this calc sucks ass. Ignore it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In concept it's the same, but yeah, we ought to have something a bit better laid out. I'm happy to evaluate whatever gets made.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Actually, this is a reasonable take. The silverfish does burrow in first and then ruptures out. It can do this fairly quickly, so it is still a feat and probably still lands in 9-A, but a calc made with reasonable assumptions could be made to more appropriately deal with the feat.

Something like one cubic meter minus 1-2x Silverfish body volume stone destroyed, as per the current calc, seems appropriate.

We would have to find the volume of a silverfish tho. (ig we could just figure out how big a cubic pixel in minecraft is and then find out how many of those a silverfish is made of)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We would have to find the volume of a silverfish tho. (ig we could just figure out how big a cubic pixel in minecraft is and then find out how many of those a silverfish is made of)

Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't know if there's an easy way to determine how many voxels are in the Silverfish's model but it certainly seems feasible to determine it.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't know if there's an easy way to determine how many voxels are in the Silverfish's model but it certainly seems feasible to determine it.

The Wiki says nothing so we'll need to load up the silverfish model into a 3d modeling program that can count cubic pixels (or we just count them ourselves)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Wiki says nothing so we'll need to load up the silverfish model into a 3d modeling program that can count cubic pixels (or we just count them ourselves)

I'm not tech savvy enough to do the former, but I was gonna say that yeah, it seems like you could feasible just sit for awhile and count it individually.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I'm not tech savvy enough to do the former, but I was gonna say that yeah, it seems like you could feasible just sit for awhile and count it individually.

Yea.

 

[Rogue_Forge]

I agree that the silverfish calc doesn't really work but there are other feats that base steve has that could scale to all other mobs such as the ghast fireball and ender dragon ramming which are both building level and steves durability SHOULD scale to his ap (even though it doesn't say it on his profile).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ender dragon ramming isn't base Steve at all.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ender dragon ramming isn't base Steve at all.

"Hey, the straight up final boss of the game should totally be a fair comparison to a dude it one-shots."

 

[Rogue_Forge]

Ender dragon ramming isn't base Steve at all.

Its easily survivable so yes it is

I'm not saying base steve scales to the city block level ender dragon attacks but the fact of the matter is that the dragon deals like no damage with its ramming whenever you fight it, the main reason the attacks are damaging is the fall damage from the insane knockback, also there are multiple types of attacks the dragon does, some more powerful than others, the weaker ones would scale to the dragons GPE while the higher damage attacks would be more comparable to the withers attacks.

The dragons weaker attacks you can easily survive with no armor (5 damage) while the stronger attacks (10 damage) require armor only because the dragon chains attacks as seen here --> https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Ender_Dragon

 

[Rogue_Forge]

Also I just remembered, more recent minecraft books have canonized that the best way to kill the ender dragon is to use beds and pretty much ignore end crystals, and that you don't even need good armor

before that the lore said you needed full enchanted diamond armor to go to the end (which is obviously ridiculous)

also, while the ender dragon is technically the final boss, I don't think I've ever seen someone kill the wither or any of the mini bosses before the dragon unless they were specifically doing that on purpose, likely due to those bosses being luck based to fight them requiring wither skull drops and finding rare structures respectively

Mojang has often changed the lore to reflect modern minecraft, I mean, the ender dragon wouldn't have been the final boss for a while now but mojang refuses to call the warden a boss and instead calls it a "natural disaster" and technically the warden would be lumped into the mini boss role with the elder guardian so its still a boss anyways

Edit: this feels like rambling now that I look back at it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Its easily survivable so yes it is

I'm not saying base steve scales to the city block level ender dragon attacks but the fact of the matter is that the dragon deals like no damage with its ramming whenever you fight it, the main reason the attacks are damaging is the fall damage from the insane knockback, also there are multiple types of attacks the dragon does, some more powerful than others, the weaker ones would scale to the dragons GPE while the higher damage attacks would be more comparable to the withers attacks.

The dragons weaker attacks you can easily survive with no armor (5 damage) while the stronger attacks (10 damage) require armor only because the dragon chains attacks as seen here --> https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Ender_Dragon

It doesn't matter if it's survivable. That's Game Mechanics. Start of game, no gear Steve, is not comparable to the Ender Dragon. Even by the numbers (you're arguing to scale AP, laughably), this is blatantly untrue. We aren't scaling those two. Stop.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I'm not tech savvy enough to do the former, but I was gonna say that yeah, it seems like you could feasible just sit for awhile and count it individually.

I believe TheRustyOne has some experience in that regard and he is a pretty good calcer because he approves my dogshit calcs.

 

[IDK3465]

I am in agreement with Bambu on accounting for the volume of the silverfish itself, I can’t believe nobody thought to correct that until now.

However, in the OP, it seems to claim that its durability shouldn’t scale while that’s obviously not the case. Silverfish are clearly intended to be the weakest mob in the game, putting Steve around the same level if not stronger. The fact that they can survive attacks from Steve as well as other Silverfish shows that they absolutely can take the force of their own attacks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, yeah, whatever replacement calc is made, Steve should upscale from. Iirc even just his punches do the same damage as a Silverfish attack.

Also uh @TheRustyOne you're called upon by name.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Oh, yeah, whatever replacement calc is made, Steve should upscale from. Iirc even just his punches do the same damage as a Silverfish attack.

Something like this?

Going by the comments above about removing 1 or 2x Silverfish's volume from 1 m^3.

 

[Colgato]

I saw it brought-up elsewhere, silver-fish infested stone also takes less time for steve to mine through, meaning it's less structurally sound than non-infested stone.

 

[IDK3465]

Something like this?

Going by the comments above about removing 1 or 2x Silverfish's volume from 1 m^3.

Yeah, pretty much

 

[IDK3465]

I saw it brought-up elsewhere, silver-fish infested stone also takes less time for steve to mine through, meaning it's less structurally sound than non-infested stone.

Tbh, I think that’s more so meant to represent the silverfish noticing the player mining the block and choosing to break out early as a result as opposed to actually showing the strength of the material. Besides, infested deepslate still has the same hardness as a regular block of stone, so even by that logic it’d all cancel out.

 

[Colgato]

I am in agreement with Bambu on accounting for the volume of the silverfish itself, I can’t believe nobody thought to correct that until now.

However, in the OP, it seems to claim that its durability shouldn’t scale while that’s obviously not the case. Silverfish are clearly intended to be the weakest mob in the game, putting Steve around the same level if not stronger. The fact that they can survive attacks from Steve as well as other Silverfish shows that they absolutely can take the force of their own attacks.

Steve's attack potency is calculated based on the silverfish currently, so basing silverfish durability on their ability to take steve's attacks is flawed if we're disregarding previous silverfish calcs and assumptions. If the silverfish's durability wasn't listed as high, steve's attack potency wouldn't be as high. It's weird circular logic stuff.

 

[IDK3465]

...bump?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Something like this?

Going by the comments above about removing 1 or 2x Silverfish's volume from 1 m^3.

It's not quite the counting voxels method discussed, but it should serve our purposes. Your calc doesn't explain it, so I'll ask you: you are doubling the volume on the basis that whatever hole the Silverfish hollows out in each block is not perfectly conformed to their body, yes? I can agree with that.

The old calc had it set up as v. frag, I suppose I'd accept it being the same in this instance. I'll post an approval now on the calc, as well- this comment serves as an approval for swapping that calc into the page.

 

[Rogue_Forge]

All this for steve to go from 9-A to slightly lower 9-A and every mob still scales so I don't think we have to edit any profiles

 

[Rogue_Forge]

Although I still think steve should scale to his durability which currently is Building level, especially when the profile for zombies has them at this tier

 

[AThe1412]

Although I still think steve should scale to his durability which currently is Building level, especially when the profile for zombies has them at this tier

To be fair, zombies deal 1 and a half hearts of damage with each hit while Steve does only half a heart of damage with his bare hands (assuming Normal difficulty which is the default).

 

[Rogue_Forge]

To be fair, zombies deal 1 and a half hearts of damage with each hit while Steve does only half a heart of damage with his bare hands (assuming Normal difficulty which is the default).

with crits its one heart so they would still be within the same ballpark

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All this for steve to go from 9-A to slightly lower 9-A and every mob still scales so I don't think we have to edit any profiles

We should link the calc at least.

 

[Rogue_Forge]

We should link the calc at least.

Yeah you're right

Edit: Also it should be in the "Calculations" section in the minecraft verse page

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Looking at the feat, it seemed to have been done over time, so shouldn't the AP amount be divided by the timeframe?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's not really over time? Silverfish pop into blocks and back out seconds later, but the block becomes a silverfish block immediately, and they certainly tunnel their way in/to the center more or less instantly.