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Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess

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is the current contention whether or not Kaguya can create normal TSO?
That's one of the contentions; the other being that just because she opted not to use them doesn't mean the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist automatically scales above them in AP and therefore we can assume the AP of those attacks would scale above the energy she is putting into the ETSO.
 
I don't believe Kaguya being able to use normal TSO is contentious at all personally considering:

  • Obito and Madara got access to creating them instantly after becoming the Juubi Jin.
  • Compositionally all they are is a combination of 7 chakra natures condensed into a chakra ball with Six Paths Senjutsu, which we know Kaguya has access to via her databook and possession of the Juubi for SPC.
  • The only Six Path Senjutsu user who had TSO but didn't show the ability to create a new TSO was Naruto who was also the only one who was not an actual Juubi Jin.
  • She actually made one via ETSO, it's not like the IT Chakra provided her with new knowledge or new abilities, it was just raw chakra stolen from regular Shinobi, the conscious choice to manifest that into a TSO was still Kaguya's, Zetsu's matter of fact tone when describing ETSO further supports that.

I do however agree that EGVF doesn't have to scale above TSO in AP just because she chose to use one over the other.

Combat, especially in a series like Nard, isn't so linear that abilities are only used or avoided because of AP values.

SPSM Naruto chose to try sexy jutsu before TSO, TBB, or Rasenshuriken on Kaguya.

I don't think there's enough evidence either way tbh

tho I will say that EGVF is probably easier to use than a TSO, given we never see anyone with too much more than a half dozen TSO at a time but Kaguya can spam Vaccum Fist for barrages and omnidirectional attacks when paired with her Byakugan Vision.

And when she's not using EGVF she's using AKAB, a jutsu that's way more suited to use against Six Paths characters than TSO are, since it decons them regardless of their Six Path resistances unlike a TSO, and is also a jutsu that she can seemingly just keep spamming like EGVF.

This isn't even to mention that TSO are inherently ass after they travel a certain range because the user loses some control of their maneuverability.
 
I don't believe Kaguya being able to use normal TSO is contentious at all personally considering:

  • Obito and Madara got access to creating them instantly after becoming the Juubi Jin.
  • Compositionally all they are is a combination of 7 chakra natures condensed into a chakra ball with Six Paths Senjutsu, which we know Kaguya has access to via her databook and possession of the Juubi for SPC.
  • The only Six Path Senjutsu user who had TSO but didn't show the ability to create a new TSO was Naruto who was also the only one who was not an actual Juubi Jin.
  • She actually made one via ETSO, it's not like the IT Chakra provided her with new knowledge or new abilities, it was just raw chakra stolen from regular Shinobi, the conscious choice to manifest that into a TSO was still Kaguya's, Zetsu's matter of fact tone when describing ETSO further supports that.

I do however agree that EGVF doesn't have to scale above TSO in AP just because she chose to use one over the other.

Combat, especially in a series like Nard, isn't so linear that abilities are only used or avoided because of AP values.

SPSM Naruto chose to try sexy jutsu before TSO, TBB, or Rasenshuriken on Kaguya.

I don't think there's enough evidence either way tbh

tho I will say that EGVF is probably easier to use than a TSO, given we never see anyone with too much more than a half dozen TSO at a time but Kaguya can spam Vaccum Fist for barrages, omnidirectional attacks when paired with her Byakugan Vision.

And when she's not using EGVF she's using AKAB, a jutsu that's way more suited to use against Six Paths characters than TSO are, since it decons them regardless of their resistances unlike a TSO, and is also a jutsu that she can seemingly just keep spamming like EGVF.

This isn't even to mention that TSO are inherently ass after they travel a certain range because the user loses some control of their maneuverability.
The sexy jutsu argument is so disingenuous
That serves an advantage by distracting her

The EGVF can’t be benefitting you in anything but AP, the TSO are something kaguya can make one per second for 15 years straight, it’s far more abundant compared to something that’s the only jutsu in the series that’s exclusive to Kaguya’s chakra control

Madara closed himself off in a TSO spheric shield, thats genuine omnidirectional defense as opposed to the non existent one for EGVF, all the advantages you listed for EGVF exist for the TSO in greater qualities because Byakugan does not solely benefit the fists


Also her preference isn’t the sole reason why I said EGVFs are > TSO
Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion
the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya.
 
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The sexy jutsu argument is so disingenuous
I crossed it out for a reason, that was a joke.
The EGVF can’t be benefitting you in anything but AP,
It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.

like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you, and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.

if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.
the TSO are something kaguya can make one per second for 15 years straight,
what?

ykw if I have time later I'll argue why that's not the case but I'm touching getting into that one tonight lol
Also her preference isn’t the sole reason why I said EGVFs are > TSO
I'm not saying it was, just that I don't agree with that reasoning specifically since it was the one brought up.
 
It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.
I know, which is why I said the latter two benefit her by stats and duraneg

like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you, and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.
You can shape the TSO to your liking and do the exact same action sequence

it's funny you bring up range because they're listed as follows

TSO - All Ranges
EGVF - Close to Mid Range

It also doesn't apply AP by exploding, it can be used as a staff or normal weaponry, explosions and more, it's far more versatile as she can also easily defend herself using byakugan to make a 360 degree TSO sphere shield, assuming you believe egvf has worse stats this would mean the TSO can protect her better, so it would be a much better thing to apply.....but she does not because it's just not strong enough compared to something that's unlocked by exclusive chakra control
if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.
Uh huh yeah no, a TSO (if it was stronger in AP) to the face would be far more effective than those heavy chakra fists which would slow down the overall attack
If TSO were truly stronger she can deadass shape it into fists and do the same thing to the susano and have a much easier time shattering the Susano
what?

ykw if I have time later I'll argue why that's not the case but I'm touching getting into that one tonight lol
if it's stronger you don't need to spam it, you'd just one shot the enemy in one go without wasting time
and she can spam the hell out of this more than anything for these reasons
The EPS value is derived from ETSB which at the very least slowly expands over the course of 15 years to consume and recreate an entire dimension.
This process requires a continuous and uninterrupted flow of chakra over that period, meaning the calculated EPS represents the absolute minimum amount of chakra Kaguya must be constantly generating just to sustain the technique without exhausting herself.

This is not an indicator of her full power—it is a low-end measure of what she can passively maintain over an extended period.

If a character can continuously output energy for 15 years without exhaustion, then their short-term, high-intensity attacks would be significantly stronger, as they are not constrained by the need for long-term sustainability.

I will use an analogy to explain this principle​

  • Imagine a runner jogging at a steady pace for 15 years without stopping.
  • The fact that they can maintain this slow, constant speed does not mean they are incapable of sprinting at much higher speeds in short bursts.
  • Similarly, EPS is Kaguya’s "jogging speed"—a safe, sustainable output—but her offensive techniques should be compared to sprinting, requiring far more energy in a much shorter time.
Kaguya does not need to conserve energy for 15 years during a battle—she can afford to use far greater chakra per second in a high-intensity fight
TLDR : If an energy output is something I am able to leave running in the background while prioritizing a fight, my combat ninjutsu would be massively higher than actions I perform passively

I'm not saying it was, just that I don't agree with that reasoning specifically since it was the one brought up.
Cool so you only have issues with the preference part and not the main one, fine
 
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I can see points on both sides, but I think I lean towards the OP making more sense overall.
Appreciate you DDM thanks 🙏🏽

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1337274155946610719/yesterday-i-posted-an-unfinished-version-of-this-and-sought-v0-l6eqcvoxbsec1.png?ex=67a6d91c&is=67a5879c&hm=a169dc5c2e4f20804ea1b245db1c6e50be56b3122b176abdc5467af1121835a4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=695&height=1185
 
It's more that the TSO lacks benefits compared to EGVF and AKAB.

If you can't use the hax aspect of TSO they quite literally become worse Rasengans/Mini TBBs.
I mean Naruto literally used them as cores for rasen shurikens instead of TBBs or rasengans so that pretty much outright tells us they're actually stronger rasengans/mini tbbs. Also just FAR more versatile.
like what's more useful in combat, a giant chakra fist that you can build momentum with the swing of your hands
And TSOs can't build up momentum with the swing of your hand? Half of the TSO usages we see are either them being swung around like staffs or thrown in rasen shurikens.
And Obito literally used his to create hands far bigger than vacuum fists so if anything TSOs size is more versatile.
and spam or a black ball of energy that you lose control over if it flies more than 70 meters away from you,
When has a EGVF ever been used across a 70+ meter distance? Seems like a pretty arbitrary weakness.
and only really seems to apply AP by exploding.
Well besides a single TSO explosion having far greater range than even a barrage of EGVFs without even completely destroying the ball, that's also just not the case.
if she has to fight from a range, they're worthless in this fight, if its close combat it would be easier to just punch them in the face with giant fists that tear apart Susano'o like paper.
Well they weren't worthless for Obito and Naruto for long ranges.

Overall I feel like TSOs provide better range and versatility so I find it really unlikely Kaguya would use an attack several orders of magnitude weaker than them instead despite them having barely if any advantages
 
I mean Naruto literally used them as cores for rasen shurikens instead of TBBs or rasengans so that pretty much outright tells us they're actually stronger rasengans/mini tbbs. Also just FAR more versatile.
when does he do that?
And TSOs can't build up momentum with the swing of your hand? Half of the TSO usages we see are either them being swung around like staffs or thrown in rasen shurikens.
a morphed TSO is just a weapon without its hax, all the ap comes from the swing.

Vacuum Fist is a hand motion + a mass of chakra turned into a fist.

those are not the same at all.
And Obito literally used his to create hands far bigger than vacuum fists so if anything TSOs size is more versatile.

When has a EGVF ever been used across a 70+ meter distance?
when did I say they could be?

my point is that in close range Kaguya uses EGVF, a jutsu that she can spam and actually has its own ap outside of physicals

and for long-range she has AKAB, a jutsu that is superior against Six Paths characters than TSO that she can also spam create at will seemingly.

TSO turned into a staff or big hands won't be as effective at dishing out AP as 30 Vaccum Fists in a short burst.

TSO isn't better than AKAB at long range.

and their hax are useless against SP characters.

why would she use them?
Well they weren't worthless for Obito and Naruto for long ranges.
in the Naruto example, those are Bijuu Bombs turned into Rasenshuriken, not TSO.
Overall I feel like TSOs provide better range and versatility so I find it really unlikely Kaguya would use an attack several orders of magnitude weaker than them instead despite them having barely if any advantages
they do have more versatility against non-six path users. against them, they're less useful than Kaguya's other abilities.
 
when does he do that?
Against Madaras meteors.
a morphed TSO is just a weapon without its hax, all the ap comes from the swing.
Not really? It's a bomb that you can manipulate telepathically.
Vacuum Fist is a hand motion + a mass of chakra turned into a fist.
TSO is hand motion + mass of chakra turned into the TSO + shape which can be adjusted for extra efficiency.

With TSO being specifically said to be condensed high-density chakra in the databook so the mass is probably far greater.
when did I say they could be?
You specifically mentioned users losing control over TSO after 70 meters as a downside when comparing them to EGVF.

That kinda implies you're saying they could be, otherwise it's a bit pointless to mention the range.
my point is that in close range Kaguya uses EGVF, a jutsu that she can spam and actually has its own ap outside of physicals
I mean so do the TSO except they are more versatile in shape and size.
Obito for example used them to grab Naruto and Sasuke, then one shot their avatars with them.
and for long-range she has AKAB, a jutsu that is superior against Six Paths characters than TSO that she can also spam create at will seemingly.
I mean sure but again, if TSOs scaled orders of magnitude above them then making a forest - mountain sized explosion would be far more efficient way of dealing with Naruto than individually poking 1000 clones with ash bones.
TSO turned into a staff or big hands won't be as effective at dishing out AP as 30 Vaccum Fists in a short burst.
VFs are generally about the same width as Kaguyas is tall so that'd be approximately 60 meter radius.

TSOs have forest level DC/range according to the databook, and have been shown making explosions several dozen kilometers wide when combined into a rasen shuriken.

I feel like that does win TSOs the effectiveness.
TSO isn't better than AKAB at long range.
That's context specific.

and their hax are useless against SP characters.
And vacuum fists don't have any hax to begin with so it's not exactly a disadvantage.
why would she use them?
Wider range, more versatility in shape and size, better defensive capabilities, and supposedly orders of magnitude greater AP.
in the Naruto example, those are Bijuu Bombs turned into Rasenshuriken, not TSO.
No we see Narutos TSO become the core and later come back
they do have more versatility against non-six path users. against them, they're less useful than Kaguya's other abilities.
I definitely wouldn't say so.
Obito, Madara, Naruto, Toneri, and seemingly even Hagoromo and Hamura all used them constantly against characters with senjutsu.

The only logical reason Kaguya would have used EGVF instead is if they were stronger
 
The only logical reason Kaguya would have used EGVF instead is if they were stronger
Or they're just what she's more used to fighting with. Characters aren't purely logical machines that always use the most optimal strategies in combat, or their most powerful techniques right away. For example Naruto's and Sasuke's most powerful forms are their Biju Mode and Perfect Susano'o yet neither of them pull them out straight away when they start their final fight against Juubi Jin Madara. It takes them a while to build up to using those.
 
Or they're just what she's more used to fighting with. Characters aren't purely logical machines that always use the most optimal strategies in combat, or their most powerful techniques right away. For example Naruto's and Sasuke's most powerful forms are their Biju Mode and Perfect Susano'o yet neither of them pull them out straight away when they start their final fight against Juubi Jin Madara. It takes them a while to build up to using those.
Put this attempt at throwing anything as a counter to rest 😭


Characters constantly develop and adapt their fighting styles to reach heights they wouldn’t in their original style, she fought her kids for a long time who had these weapons, she herself had ample time with these tools to develop herself and she felt a better expression of raw power are the fists, it won’t just be a dumb thing to not use the most versatile tools after years it would be straight up contradictory


Anyways I think it’s been debated enough and diverts a little from the main point unnecessarily and as Test said discussing this doesn’t affect the final conclusion regardless
I fully agree with this btw
Switching you to the agreement section 🤞🏽🤞🏽
 
Or they're just what she's more used to fighting with. Characters aren't purely logical machines that always use the most optimal strategies in combat, or their most powerful techniques right away.
The thing is that she just kidna never pulls it out. I get that PIS exists and even that Kaguya is a huge victim of that.
But I found it much more likely that TSO are just not thousands and millions of times stronger than her other combat oriented abilities, than her just not using that.
For example Naruto's and Sasuke's most powerful forms are their Biju Mode and Perfect Susano'o yet neither of them pull them out straight away when they start their final fight against Juubi Jin Madara. It takes them a while to build up to using those.
Well that's a bit different since Madara also had a susanoo which he could just pull out to counter that. And using those forms would obliterate the surrounding area and cause many unnecessary deaths which neither side really wanted. Hell Sasuke kinda whips it out the moment they get transported to a different dimension.

But I get what you mean. This just doesn't look like Kaguya is just "building up" to the TSO.
 
So, since this thread has gone on so long I will ask where are we at the moment on the two sides of this argument.
 
So, since this thread has gone on so long I will ask where are we at the moment on the two sides of this argument.
You can start reading from here after youre done reading the OP and check the counterarguments that come after that post



isshiki and naruto upscale from v2 kaguya and no one is contesting them upscaling from tso,
no one also has issues with tso scaling there
the later discussions talk about whether her EGVF attacks upscale from normal TSO (It is argued from my side that they'd be stronger or at least comparable for reasons mentioned in the linked post)



ultimately that doesn't impact the overall proposal as Test said earlier
 
Greetings my friends, today I have cooked up a special meal with Samlex that has been long overdue in the wiki, this is going to be about Isshiki scaling massively above Kaguya's ETSO Energy Per Second value. I know there will be some inevitable misconstruction but regardless I urge everyone to read everything carefully
Without further ado let’s proceed

GQs5up7WgAAmmTT



A few keywords before we begin​

EPS = Energy Per Second Chakra needed for ETSO this is her combat applicable ninjutsu
ETSO = The jutsu that destroys and recreates a dimension over at least 15 years
V1 Kaguya = The Kaguya that came out of Madara in the war arc (this kaguya is involved with god tier scaling chains)
V2 Kaguya = Post IT Amp Kaguya that initiated ETSO (This Kaguya was stated exponentially superior from before)
EGVF = Eighty God's Vacuum Fists

Main Course​

V2 Kaguya that Nard and Sasuke don’t scale to has tier 4 ninjutsu (EPS NOT ETSO), Isshiki blatantly scales beyond it



It reflects Isshiki’s overwhelming physical superiority, this dominance isn’t due to hax or specialized abilities, but strength because Jigen's abilities were skillfully countered by their teamwork and strategies, it was the strength boost from Jigen’s horned transformation that decisively turned the tide, Isshiki amplified these physical traits more so to the point of any and all ninjutsu being rendered ineffective in scratching him reducing Naruto into contemplating certain death. Naruto later attains Baryon Mode which produces purely higher physical stats to combat Isshiki. He was the "strongest" foe solely due to his vastly superior statistics putting him irrefutably beyond EPS.

EGVF is Kaguya’s Power​


This jutsu is a defining aspect of her power as she's constantly making use of this jutsu several times within the series, it defines her power as a part of her combat capabilities

Her EGVFs are a counter to naruto and sasuke's avatars, them = her peak strength and power (Her combat capabilities)
It is to be noted she did not use physical punching attacks, especially characters like Sasuke only tasted her power when he got beat up by the EGVF. (he blocked some needles casually at the start once tho) As sasuke physically clashed with that and not her fists his statement regarding her formidable strength would refer to the EGVF. (I am not upgrading Momo and Kin to tier 4 im saying he can only attribute kaguya's power to her EGVF) Isshiki being the stronger foe would put him above the primary combat capabilities which means his peak power>her peak power and since his peak is just punches and kicks he scales physically

Energy System​




In the Wiki’s official rules, for all three power systems if two abilities draw energy from the same power source they are allowed to scale to each other



One Advantage of the EPS value is that it is massively lowballed to make it safe for scaling, since it's been calculated with the assumption that she'd be pouring this in for 15 years continuously without rest, breaks, sleep it indexes her ultra casual energy outputs as a result her normal offensive ninjutsu that are far beyond her physicals that consume immense amounts of chakra will scale far beyond the EPS value too, especially the Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack A jutsu that is only possible by the mastery of her chakra, likely the strongest attack of an entity who freely weaves chakra.

Consistency Statements​


Canonicity​

The Boruto NNG Anime was accepted as canon up till episode 216 as that was the duration till when Kodachi was working in the anime but now it is accepted as completely canon, the evidences used here are from episode 214 while the anime was still under Kodachi’s wing, who wrote the novels as well as the BNNG manga till the 50s and has connected them.
I will not be expanding much here because it’s already accepted, I'm just putting it out there for the curious minds

What is being proposed?​

Sand Box with Proposals

What is NOT being proposed?​

-Kaguya scaling physically to anything
-SO6P naruto being upgraded
-Sasuke being upgraded
-V1 Kaguya ninjutsu being this strong

Lastly​

I would like to thank Samlex and the other people in and out of the wiki that helped review these things for me in advance, Credits for CRT thumbnail, Kindly do not argue against things I have not proposed, read everything carefully as it is a very short CRT, no argument from incredulity and no strawmaning please. That will be all thank you for your time

Votes :​

Isshiki Tops (Agree) : MinatoSparkle, JohnHendrix212, EmperorRorepmeThree, Elyartaker, Stryker861, Iabihs, Samlex1234, Tom4t0GG789, Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe, Padaruyos, Deceived3596, AnimesFreak2, DavidTPPM, KaydeeX, ssgengar, Nierre, DarkDragonMedeus, Testarossa002, HelloThere1089

Bunny Milf Solos (Disagree) : Damage3245

They dont fw each other
(Neutral) : Kidkinsey (leaning agree), karo_senpaii (leaning agree)
AGREE FRA.

good job
 
If the overarching idea of the OP is that Kaguya should at the bear minimum be able to place the amount of chakra she does in our theoretical version of the Truth-Seeking Orb calc into another techinque such as EGVH and scaling emerges from that I think I find this agreeable.
 
If the overarching idea of the OP is that Kaguya should at the bear minimum be able to place the amount of chakra she does in our theoretical version of the Truth-Seeking Orb calc into another techinque such as EGVH and scaling emerges from that I think I find this agreeable.
Thank you very much, I appreciate the evaluation, that’s three votes, I’ll be applying changes now
 
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