Nuking Yogiri's plot manipulation and more (instant death)

[BoastJr]

However, Isn't pegasus pushing for 1A+ ?

 

[Voidnether]

However, Isn't pegasus pushing for 1A+ ?

Oh yeah, he does but I don't know when. I bumped the Acheron vs Ruphas matchup since it's apparently going to be 1-A+ for Ruphas but looks like nobody cares enough about it
https://vsbattles.com/threads/ruphas-vs-acheron.169316/post-6967165

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

However, Isn't pegasus pushing for 1A+ ?

There is no news of him say that
Maybe

 

[Voidnether]

Why is it not embedded lol

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

This crt of someone want to Wank AWLBA:
CRT
Dawg he tries to explain but no staff(except Pegasus but he disagree to it) care about it

 

[SweetDao]

Bump

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Im Agree with it

 

[SweetDao]

Bump

 

[Robo432343]

if this downgrade gets accepted then we should also remove acausality type 4

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

if this downgrade gets accepted then we should also remove acausality type 4

It has already been accepted, I am separating the abilities on all profiles to make implementing the changes easier... But yeah, they should be active soon.

 

[SweetDao]

if this downgrade gets accepted then we should also remove acausality type 4

Better, remove the true form altogether

But yeah, fair point, idk if a thread is needed since it hinged on the acausality of other character that has since been removed. Nevermind, we need to remove it from the fish too

 

[Robo432343]

It has already been accepted, I am separating the abilities on all profiles to make implementing the changes easier... But yeah, they should be active soon.

remove every single ability from his profile

 

[SweetDao]

remove every single ability from his profile

Watch as I remove Death Manipulation whenever a Thread Slot is available

 

[SweetDao]

Bump

 

[Ovy7]

Honestly, I was looking at the plot stuff for Yogiri verse in the past, and never understood why it got it, as the reasons seemed more like Fate stuff than actual plot hax. So yeah, I agree with the thread.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Bump

 

[Deleted member 40129]

If Fujitaka stopped making people send their ocs to get butchered by yogiri I think he would have less negative press and people would have just ignored his scaling stuff

He asks people to send their OCs? Damn, gotta send mine in Japanese now.

 

[SweetDao]

bump

 

[sukuna171]

Better, remove the true form altogether

But yeah, fair point, idk if a thread is needed since it hinged on the acausality of other character that has since been removed. Nevermind, we need to remove it from the fish too

worldviews holders acausality are pretty solid in my opinion.​

 

[SweetDao]

worldviews holders acausality are pretty solid in my opinion.​

Not only is there no scans whatsoever, it's also bullshit on many levels tbf. No one can get acausality (4 or 5) in the verse unless they are explicitly beyond the laws of the UEW. If not, then you can assume it's just something else.

Also, the whole Worldview stuff is just law manip on a small-esque scale, nothing crazy

 

[SweetDao]

Bump

 

[SweetDao]

bump

 

[SweetDao]

bump

 

[SweetDao]

bump

 

[YungManzi]

As a former huge defender of the verse, I’ve briefly read over many of the arguments for revision presented over the past half year in my, and many of my fellow supporters who created the verse, absence. I have a problem with all of it, but for the sake of not muddying the conversation I’ll focus on the arguments presented in this particular thread.

There was a thread Three years ago using the same exact argument, that was rejected. To begin with, a large part of the reason why Plot Manipulation went through for Yogiri and members of the Instant Death cast is because we already have precedent for plot manipulation existing in the verse with Neechan wa Chuunibyou; with worldview/protagonist based plot manipulation literally already existing in the world Yogiri is from. Aoi had essentially, bar for bar, explained Ryoma and Yuichi’s powers.

So it goes to show, if it already exists as a real power in the same verse and multiple people already have it, it’s easier to assume Yogiri has it as well and it’s not purely a metaphor. Especially considering where he stands in the verse. Also, the Plot Manipulation page acknowledges changing fate via plot as plot manipulation.

As CP said then.

Interesting how this argument has moved from:

The translations don't mention plot

Plot is just being used metaphorically

Neechan isn't part of Instant Death

Plot Manipulation isn't a thing in Neechan either, it's just fate and Ryoma is basically just a chuuni.

Also i am getting deja vu here, hasn't someone attempted this exact topic before? Seems controversial, at the least with the Neechan portion, @Overlord_THE_END makes a pretty convincing argument imo.

Honestly, the Neechan part of it should have been made clear on Yogiri’s profile when we went over this for the third or fourth time. But tbf it was only ever brought up when someone tried to debunk plot manipulation existing.

Beyond that, using a version of one translation to downplay celestial foundations to sometimes be Solar Systems; when the official translation of that same chapter (Which I have) literally says “universe” paired with “space and time” multiple times, with no mention of solar systems, is crazy work. Expect a thread on that when I come back fr.

 

[Robo432343]

omg disagree fra

 

[SweetDao]

or plot manipulation existing in the verse with Neechan wa Chuunibyou

Good thing that there isn't any in Neechan either then, right?

Beyond that, using a version of one translation to downplay celestial foundations to sometimes be Solar Systems; when the official translation of that same chapter (Which I have) literally says “universe” paired with “space and time” multiple times, with no mention of solar systems, is crazy work. Expect a thread on that when I come back fr.

You'll have to explain to me what "a version of one translation to downplay celestial foundation" you're referring to right now, because it's not even from ID in the first place. But sure, go on, if you can show me how those beautiful stars in the sky are real, you'll get a pretty good case for it.

Also, the official translation is shit, so if I can give you any advice, it would be to double-check everything, just in case you know.

 

[YungManzi]

Good thing that there isn't any in Neechan either then, right?

So.. explain how?

Forget the CF stuff for now.

 

[SweetDao]

So.. explain how?

Forget the CF stuff for now.

"There is plot manip in Neechan!"

The plot manip in Neechan:

 

[SweetDao]

Mind you, here's how are defined Worldview holder in the novel:

“Yet logical or not, they clearly exist, so we just have to accept it,” Tomomi said. “Well, the real answer is that they operate under different physical laws. They exist as part of a different worldview than we do, with different rules.”

Tomomi continued to explain that there were as many worlds out there as there were people. “People” referred to beings with human-like intelligence, who each had their own worlds.

These worlds were all different, but since they had many broad points in common, they could compromise to co-exist.

“Yep, I don’t understand a bit of it!” Yuichi admitted honestly.

“This is all just what I was told, so I don’t know all the details, but the point is, every person has their own world,” Tomomi said. “And while every person has their own world, the broad outlines are predetermined, and there are central figures who are like the personification of a given worldview. Those people are called Worldview Holders.”

“And they decide the rules of the world?” Yuichi asked. It all sounded pretty absurd to Yuichi. People like that would basically be called gods.

“They aren’t necessarily doing it consciously,” Tomomi said. “But the worldviews of the people around the Holder are strongly influenced by the Holder’s own. As a result, the world around a Holder will cohere into one the Holder recognizes. Of course, there are a lot of Holders out there, which means you sometimes wind up with conflicting worldviews coming into contact. When that happens, it’s called a World Conflict, and the weaker world is integrated into the stronger one.”

(I've bolded the important part since it was used in a different thread, but it's still relevant here)

And, funnily enough, it's also how it's explained in another novel with NO mention of "story" or "plot" stuff, mind you, this bit came before Neechan as a whole:

Those who control the world are gods. Such a thing is unmatched by an existence like humans. But the Efim household ruled each human being as a world. And they altered their own worlds that were subjected to their powers. They have established a setting different from the world in the gods’ point of view. What made this feat possible was the power of selves, a power that was referred to as demonic power by the demons and divine power by the gods. The Efim household had focused on controlling it, albeit limited. Thus, it was localized, and its effect could only be demonstrated with direct contact.

 

[YungManzi]

"There is plot manip in Neechan!"

The plot manip in Neechan:

I don’t see how any of this debunks any of the statements; including the narration itself, not a character, saying these things:

Volume 7 Prologue of Neechan wa Chuunibyou

This is Ryoma Takei, the participant that Ende had chosen so that she could meddle in the war. He had a trait that caused him to be caught up in all sorts of strange incidents, as well as the ability to resolve those incidents as if he were the protagonist of their stories. He was, in effect, an avatar of plot convenience, and she had decided to make use of this.

And again in the same chapter. This is the narrator saying this.

Ryoma was a protagonist, an avatar of plot convenience.

And the narrator keeps calling him the protagonist. Again.

If he could use his protagonist advantage to its fullest, there was a chance he could win the Divine Vessels War.

This is all the same chapter you got your Ende quotes from, but it’s important to make the distinction that while to Ende it was a metaphor for how his powers worked, the narrative itself still refers to his powers in such a manner. If anything that Ende quote just says she doesn’t actually believe his powers works that way, but her belief or not has no bearing on what his powers are.

Now let’s go on. Here’s the narrative itself explaining what worldview abilities are.

Volume 7 chapter 2~ All Outers had abilities based on the worldviews they came from.

Chapter 1~ Monika’s worldview had been “A hopeless Romantic Little World.” It had apparently been a worldview where shojo manga-like love stories played out,

Chapter 7~ The worldview of Worldview Holder was greatly influenced by that person’s thoughts and wishes.

Volume 6, Chapter 3~All worlds were governed by rules, which they referred to as “Worldviews.” The embodiment of a worldview was known as a Worldview Holder, the person who dictated the direction of that world.

In other words, Worldview Holders are law manipulators who’s power depends on how they view themselves. Meaning that if Ryoma views himself as a protagonist, he will have plot manipulation. Here’s the narrative stating the purpose of his training.

Volume 7 Prologue~Ryoma was a protagonist, an avatar of plot convenience. The purpose of the training was to get him to realize that, and it seemed to have worked.

 

[Duedate8898]

I can agree with the removal of plot manipulation, and instead having that turned into Resistance for Fate Manipulation, maybe even an unconventional reistance as the reason for it failing to work on him centers around how he is the end of it himself.

 

[SweetDao]

I don’t see how any of this debunks any of the statements; including the narration itself, not a character, saying these things:

You mean, as if the characters aren't a way to give explanation for the readers too?

Volume 7 Prologue of Neechan wa Chuunibyou

I think your whole point is ultimately pointless, we know that the whole "story" and "plot" charade is just that, a metaphor, an analogy and anything in between. One hundred wrongs doesn't make a right. This is exactly the same scenario with ID when Hanakawa end up saying "yeah that seems meta" and stuff. Also, just like the OP stated, the whole "meta-story" doesn't even exist in the raw in the first place, only "meta" is used. Even then, Aoi explain it's nothing but an analogy.

And again in the same chapter. This is the narrator saying this.

Wow, he's said to be an avatar of plot convenience... While we know it's a false comparison and something Worldview holder tend to fall into...

And the narrator keeps calling him the protagonist. Again.

I mean, technically he is if we're real for a sec

But beside this, it's not because the guy is repeatedly stated to be a protagonist that it's necessarily implying that it's literal. Heck, you have the explanation of what "A worldview holder" is that render the thing being nothing more than subjective reality on a small or larger scale depending on the people surrounding said Worldview:

“I’m glad you’re familiar with it. That will speed things up. Solet’s begin based on that. The ‘anthro’ in ‘anthropic’ principlerefers to mankind, right? Lumping all humans together. That’s abit of a reckless way of looking at it, don’t you think? So let’s assume that universes are not designed to suit all of humanity, but to suit individuals. In other words, everyone has their own universe.”“But... the universe doesn’t suit me at all! If the world I perceive was made for me, then it would bow to my every whim,wouldn’t it? But it doesn’t! You’ve seen what I’ve been reduced to,losing my power and wandering hopelessly through this city...”

This is all the same chapter you got your Ende quotes from, but it’s important to make the distinction that while to Ende it was a metaphor for how his powers worked, the narrative itself still refers to his powers in such a manner. If anything that Ende quote just says she does actually believe his powers works how that way, but her belief or not has no bearing on what his powers works is.

This is not only Ende tho, Yuri said the same thing. Literally, the first instance of explanation we get regarding Worldview and stuff, we learn that it's NOT literally a story. However, during ALL the novel, we keep getting stuff like "protagonist", "story", "side characters" and such, because it's the whole point of the novel. The narration is important, just as much as what the character explains.

Now let’s go on. Here’s the narrative itself explaining what worldview abilities are.

I mean, yeah, sure and? Are you saying that Yuri's explanation about how WH operate on different laws isn't correct, then?

The first quote is cool, but not interesting for what we are arguing here.

The second is literally just saying "stuff that happens are similar to what happens in those type of stories", which, if it's your argument to say it's a "plot manipulation" is frankly very weak.

“They have the power, you could say, to structure their worldviews... to reinforce them, I guess. For instance, my world was ‘A Hopelessly Romantic Little World.’ My worldview’s all about love. My ability is called ‘That First Spark,’ To put it simply, I can manipulate affection.”

“H-How do you use that?” Aiko, who had been previously been staring out into space, suddenly inquired.“I don’t know if you’re getting your hopes up, but it’s just the power to make someone’s heart race, more or less. And it doesn’t work on people who already know each other. Only people who’ve just met.”

I guess plot manip level "making one's heart race faster" ?

The third one is fine, it's the whole thing about Worldview, a world influenced by the perception of someone through the power of their self.

The fourth one is like the one above, I have no problem with it.

In other words, Worldview Holders are law manipulators who’s power depends on how they view themselves. Meaning that if Ryoma views himself as a protagonist, he will have plot manipulation. Here’s the narrative stating the purpose of his training.

I'm fine with the bolded part. The rest is incomprehensible to me. Why can't he see himself as a protagonist through self-deception, granting him special rules to make him the protagonist, instead of LITERALLY getting plot manipulation from nowhere?
By the way. Since we're on that, I want to ask you. You're probably not aware since it's pretty unknown for now, but there is a "sequel" (more so a spin-off ngl) to Instant Death called Instant Death Gaiden, which follows different characters I couldn't bother remembering the names (I'm very bad at names/faces but whatever). In it, and if I'm not mistaking, there is an explanation that "someone seeing himself as lucky, would get lucky through their own perception", this is not written like this, but that's the gist of it. Are you implying, therefore, that this character has "plot level luck manipulation/plot level surnatural luck" since he modified the perception of his world to get such an effect?

Again. The whole point of Worldview Holders is to operate on different rules. That's the whole gist of the "power". Those rules can be bent in many different ways, such as increasing mass and such, stuff that shouldn't be possible normally/physically. You literally have a household believing themselves as "worlds" and being able to kill gods which is something that shouldn't be technically possible, but it is, because they are so obsessed, and they believe so much in their "god-killing" technique that it actually end up working.

Also, just found this:

However, it was harder for the influence of a Worldview Holder to affect the body of another person. A person was like a little world unto themselves. This meant that the most effective method against an Outer was to attack them bare-handed at close range.

Which align with this:

Those who control the world are gods. Such a thing is unmatched by an existence like humans. But the Efim household ruled each human being as a world. And they altered their own worlds that were subjected to their powers. They have established a setting different from the world in the gods’ point of view. What made this feat possible was the power of selves, a power that was referred to as demonic power by the demons and divine power by the gods. The Efim household had focused on controlling it, albeit limited. Thus, it was localized, and its effect could only be demonstrated with direct contact.

Are you saying that the Efim household also possess plot manipulation? Are you saying that ANYONE in the verse that gets something through their own perception gets plot manipulation?

At best, it's subjective reality and law manip, that's about it.
(Also my bad if maybe some phrasings are rude, it's not on purpose, just doing multiple things on the side and very tired, so if some feels rude, I apologize)

 

[YungManzi]

You mean, as if the characters aren't a way to give explanation for the readers too?

No, I mean narrative statements override character statements. Nowhere in narration does it refer to it “protagonist” or “plot convenience” as a metaphor, despite those phrases being used in narration. The only ones who say it’s a metaphor are the characters themselves. Hell, “An Avatar of Plot Convenience” as a statement is something that strictly comes from the narrator and no character ever comments on or says in the whole story. So it’s interesting you just throw that statement out in favor of character statements.

The closest thing you have to a narrative contradiction is the characters themselves using it as a metaphor, and/or not really believing that’s how it works. That doesn’t contradict that actual narrator referring to Ryoma as an avatar of plot convenience.

These characters making these statements aren’t gods or even super geniuses who fully comprehend the entire universe or something. We have a page about Statements and differentiating them for a reason.

Wow, he's said to be an avatar of plot convenience... While we know it's a false comparison and something Worldview holder tend to fall into...

You’re saying… The narrator is making a false comparison? Be fr.

 

[SweetDao]

You’re saying… The narrator is making a false comparison? Be fr.

No, I'm saying that the whole point of Worldview holder is to bend rules. That's their whole things. Can they gain others abilities through those changes in rules? Yeah, sure.

It's not because someone indulge in self-delusion to end up thinking the world is a story and that he's a character within it that it suddenly grants plot manipulation. You literally have a statement saying it's Ryoma's way of seeing the world, that's it. It's fate manip at best or proba manip or anything you want but plot, literally.

Ende also compared the world to a story, but it was nothing more than a metaphor.

However, if someone believed that this world was artificial and that they were merely a character within it, Ende had no intention of denying it.

I'm not even mentioning the fact that the author states multiple times that people like Aoi have an ability to manipulate FATE and not some plot shit. Mind you, her power is the same as one of the character from Neechan (although boosted, obviously).

Aoi’s part starts off straight into battle. I had mentioned that "A cruel world where only effort is rewarded" was just a ruby gag (a reading quirk) and didn’t need to be said out loud, but it seems they decided to include it anyway.

The anime doesn’t explain much about Just World’s abilities, but to put it simply, it’s a form of fate manipulation within plausible limits. Whether something is "plausible" depends on Aoi’s perception.
It’s a highly convenient ability—though there are plenty of things it can’t do, it’s still close to being omnipotent. By denying the possibility of something, Aoi can nullify other people’s abilities, and by acknowledging that someone else can do something, Aoi can use their abilities as well.
Since Aoi can also observe fate from a higher perspective, a limited form of future prediction is possible.

The same way the ability with the guy and the book was described, manipulating fate and such. I can't understand why people want to latch on so much to the fact the author made a comparison to make it easier to understand. "Fate is like a movie script, so it means it's plot manipulation" is like, barebone, to be frank.

You also have an explanation of Ryoma's power being causality manip, come on.

"...I guess I’ll take this one.” Ignoring Ende’s grumblings, Ryoma tossed a card into the air.

“Event: Love interest appears. A hero girl falls from the sky."

“Heroes and falling from the sky are both pretty cliché too, but there didn’t seem to be anything better.”

Ryoma laughed dryly, and the effect of the ability activated immediately.

A black hole opened in the ceiling of Ende’s library.

A girl fell from it, and Ryoma hurried to catch her.

“Amazing... it really takes effect that quickly?” Ende was impressed.

When an Outer controlled destiny, they basically had to nudge the related entities into place over time, but Ryoma’s ability was completely direct, influencing the principles of causality themselves.

 

[YungManzi]

Ende also compared the world to a story, but it was nothing more than a metaphor.

However, if someone believed that this world was artificial and that they were merely a character within it, Ende had no intention of denying it.

Where is this statement exactly? Is it WN or LN, and what chapter? Also if it pertains just to worldviews and Outers in general and not to Ryoma in particular (Who is the character we’re arguing about rn), I wouldn’t use that statement and directly apply it to say Ryoma doesn’t have plot manip; he is stated to be different than most others even with the same or similar powers.

Edit: I have every neechan volume on kindle and can’t find this anywhere.

I'm not even mentioning the fact that the author states multiple times that people like Aoi have an ability to manipulate FATE and not some plot shit. Mind you, her power is the same as one of the character from Neechan (although boosted, obviously).

The same way the ability with the guy and the book was described, manipulating fate and such. I can't understand why people want to latch on so much to the fact the author made a comparison to make it easier to understand. "Fate is like a movie script, so it means it's plot manipulation" is like, barebone, to be frank.

You also have an explanation of Ryoma's power being causality manip, come on.

You realize a power can simultaneously be Fate, Causality, and Plot Manipulation, right? Just because its one, doesn’t exclude it from being the others as well.

 

[SweetDao]

Where is this statement exactly? Is it WN or LN, and what chapter? Also if it pertains just to worldviews and Outers in general and not to Ryoma in particular (Who is the character we’re arguing about rn)

It's LN, just the raw translated through another means, because I don't trust, at all, any official translation. Obviously, we can always ask a translation helper, or I could go and ask my translator to do it if you're doubtful.

だが、この世界は作り物で、自分がその登場人物だと思っているというのなら、それを否定しようとエンデは思わなかった。

No, we're talking about Ryoma right here. It's the same scene I sent first all the way above. The discussion between Ende and Ryoma after his training.

he is stated to be different than most others even with the same or similar powers.

Stated above.

You realize a power can simultaneously be Fate, Causality, and Plot Manipulation, right? Just because its one, doesn’t exclude it from being the others as well.

I agree with you, 100%. Thing is, Fate is more than plausible, causality is the same, but plot is given through a headache of a line of thinking.

Like, see the whole point about "Outers" being ageless, undying etc? Well, in the end, it's not that they are "literally outside of stories and destiny" it's just that they are extremely lucky, which provoke some stuff within their bodies or surroundings.

If you were making the case that Ryoma was "the only one" having plot, I would have at least seen from where you're coming from (wouldn't particularly agree with it, but would have seen merit), but giving it to every Worldview holder and by extension to every Fate Manipulator, and ultimately to Yogiri (for doing nothing btw) is not passable for me.

 

[YungManzi]

It's LN, just the raw translated through another means, because I don't trust, at all, any official translation. Obviously, we can always ask a translation helper, or I could go and ask my translator to do it if you're doubtful.

I disagree with taking random out of context japanese translations over official translations. I’ve seen both massive downplays and wank dealing with out of context translations.

I guess we’re at an impasse here.

It might be worth considering making separate pages for different versions. Like split the LN from the WN. WN canon = Japanese Translation LN canon = Official translations.

I agree with you, 100%. Thing is, Fate is more than plausible, causality is the same, but plot is given through a headache of a line of thinking.

Like, see the whole point about "Outers" being ageless, undying etc? Well, in the end, it's not that they are "literally outside of stories and destiny" it's just that they are extremely lucky, which provoke some stuff within their bodies or surroundings.

If you were making the case that Ryoma was "the only one" having plot, I would have at least seen from where you're coming from (wouldn't particularly agree with it, but would have seen merit), but giving it to every Worldview holder and by extension to every Fate Manipulator, and ultimately to Yogiri (for doing nothing btw) is not passable for me.

I think we can agree for once; I don’t believe every Worldview Holder has Plot Manipulation. (After all, Worldview Holder /= Protagonist) And honestly, Aoi’s Plot manip should have been removed some time ago, when the author themselves denied Aoi being a worldview holder.

 

[SweetDao]

I disagree with taking random out of context japanese translations over official translations. I’ve seen both massive downplays and wank dealing with out of context translations

Well, I guess I can join you in that reasoning. Personally, I've checked some raws of important moments (scaling wise or not) and the official translation adds words if not entire sentence that doesn't exist. I get it that translations are not always "100% literal and identical to the raw material" but that's... too much. Yogiri got a NEP due to added sentence/mistranslation, that's the quality of the translation we're talking here.

It might be worth considering making separate pages for different versions. Like split the LN from the WN. WN canon = Japanese Translation LN canon = Official translations.

Is there a real reason to split the WN and LN? Is the Neechan WN even still available right now? I understand your wish to use the official translation, anyone with a sane mind would but... Yeah, even right now it poses its own set of problem, because the current rating of the ID cosmology/Yogiri is based on an unofficial translation, should we nuke it then?

I think we can agree for once; I don’t believe every Worldview Holder has Plot Manipulation.

Yeah, we can agree on that at least.

And honestly, Aoi’s Plot manip should have been removed some time ago, when the author themselves denied Aoi being a worldview holder.

Well, it got removed in the end, so at least that's one thing

 

[YungManzi]

Is there a real reason to split the WN and LN? Is the Neechan WN even still available right now? I understand your wish to use the official translation, anyone with a sane mind would but... Yeah, even right now it poses its own set of problem, because the current rating of the ID cosmology/Yogiri is based on an unofficial translation, should we nuke it then?

It wouldn’t be nuked, it’d just be WN only. Besides that, I think overall cosmology of the LN scales about the same anyway with a few exceptions for the lower tiers scaling higher and god tiers scaling lower.

The biggest differences we’d see would probably be in Powers and Abilities.


Also, question, I’ve never read that other story (The Demon King is Unbeatable) is there somewhere to read it? and what exactly makes it canon to the rest of the verse?