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Logan Paul Profile Deletion (Potentially the WWE-verse with it)

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Tllmbrg said:
Guess I'll drop my two cents on the matter since I have no horse to back here

I think the verse is fine to stand since from what I understand there are scripts and an actual canon. Correct me if I'm wrong but all the matches of a certain show like WrestleMania are canonical to one another aye?
So to me it is as okay as say a profile for a theater play idk
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Does this or does this not extend to Logan Paul, since that's the core matter of the thread, with greater WWE discussion blossoming off of that
 
You may do so, aye.

Believe it or not, my ass does not decide all- I speak my mind, minority or majority. You may go ask Mom if Dad said no.
 
I'm not too into WWE, but...
In truth, what most differentiates WWE from other normal fiction is that they take real life a little more into account... and that's it.
The acting is bad but it is acting, the action is slow... but it is action (and with many things faked, so it is still acting) the personalities built, relationships, abilities and/or even results of the fights (central point of WWE) are dictated by whatever the script says.

Finally, I'm pretty sure that the case of youtubers and wrestlers are quite different:
While most youtubers may have built personalities and feats, in the end the central axis is a real thing not related to themselves:
  • Hysterical critic will have sketches in his videos, but the central axis is a review of some cinematographic work
  • Hanimations may have feats, but the central axis will be to tell real anecdotes (applicable to almost every average animation channel of that type)
  • Missasinfonia (I'm not much of youtubers, I ran out of examples known in the English community) will show sketches and feats all the time (with a consistent medium level in between), but the video will be based on reading comments, showing things that he really buy, but forgot (compulsive buyer), follow wikihow tutorials, etc.
If there is something in which I agree, it is that the summaries that speak directly of who plays the wrestler and not of the wrestler as such should be changed
Also, this thread wasn't just for Logan Paul?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
A staff member not changing their position because quite a lot of other people (most of whom have shown themselves to not understand what is even being argued) would rather they did can be as disappointing as you please. I do not really care. Nobody here has given any viable reason to change, except perhaps that they think I should.
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That is not the point. For one, "most of whom have shown themselves to not understand what is even being argued", this is objectively a subjective take on your part, and thus irrelevant to this discussion. It is simply a matter that moment anyone appear's to propose anything against your argument, you firmly deny it swiftly and to a point where it seems you fail to even consider what the other side is saying. Apologies if you do not really care about the arguments brought up against you, as if that will continue to be the case, I honestly, and no offense meant, pity your inability to be just a bit more open minded.

Oh, and yes, I know. You don't care.


Mr._Bambu said:
WWE is a stage play. What we index are actors. This should not be so. It is no different than the examples provided- rather than counter that point, people have just been offering more and more flawed comparisons.
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Actor's are people who perform on the stage as well as on screen and digitally. By the definition, those who are on stage play's would be actor's, and ergo, this site would index them. The only difference between WWE and other forms of Live Action Media we record is that WWE allow's people to pay money to see it in person. No matter how you slice it, it sounds like it would be beneficial to sit down and properly outline the rules on this matter- Or alternatively, abolish them entirely.


Mr._Bambu said:
Your dissent is noted and disregarded.
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Your disregard of my dissent is noted and disappointing. The predicted response of you not caring is noted and disregarded.



In any case, I have yet to actually see any real reason that makes sense for not having a franchise like WWE on here. On our welcome page, the purpose of the site is well shown: "The purpose of this wiki is to index the statistics of characters from a wide variety of different fictional franchises."
WWE Is, of course, a Fictional Franchise. The definition of Fictional is "relating to fiction; invented for the purposes of fiction." And the definition of fiction, according to Merriam Webster.com, is "something told or written that is not fact. : a made-up story.", which WWE assuredly is (Just because Chris Jericho and Triple H are feuding does not mean the Actor's who play the Character's in question are, as a example.). I don't think I need to explain how WWE is a Franchise. Sure, we may have some redundant rules that may alter or change that to a degree, but at it's core, WWE easily fits in with the base criteria of being a Fictional Franchise. Comparisons to skits like the AVGN to my knowledge are not nearly as apt as one may think, because unlike WWE, AVGN is not a franchise.

Take note of this rule here in the editing rules, under the section for what is allowed as a character/verse, specifically under the section for stage persona's:

"Characters that originate from fictional canons or franchises, and share the same names as their real world counterparts are allowed, on the condition that they fulfill the requirements mentioned above."

I don't believe we need to further prove that WWE is a Fictional Franchise with it's own Fictional Canon, so as a result, so long as they fulfill proper requirements, there is no need to disallow them.

Something else to note is that the section deliberately states that Stage Persona's are essentially just people acting as a variation of themself. However, for a large number of WWE Star's, their character's are either fully constructed by, or had a large hand in being constructed by, the Company itself, and can vary drastically from the real life person (Mark Henry may be a rude and cruel person in The Ring, but supposedly, he's one of the Nicest People around.), sure, there are occasion's where a Superstar may play a role similar to their real life personality, but they are seldom ever the exact same, and numerous character's share next to no differences to their actor's (The Former Lead star of Two and A Half Men coming to mind, who was literally playing himself in all but last name), so it would serve as a double standard to consider these sort's of barely constructed roles as character's, while say, The Role of The Undertaker, which may be very much different from the IRL Person, is considered as a mere "Variant of the Original Person".
 
So after looking through the first couple of pages in the Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread, while a majority of the users who approved of WWE as a verse were blue users, here are the following staff who approved of or seemed fine with WWE/Pro Wrestling being a verse, as well as participated in the thread:

Amelia Loneheart (tragically left)
@MonkeyOfLife (probably wants nothing to do with the verse now lol)
@MistaClean (?)
EliminatorVenom (inactive for months)
@KLOL506
@LephyrTheRevanchist

I'll contact Lephyr, as he's by far the most reliable person here to count on, as he actually has participated in previous WWE threads, and pretty much gets the concept behind WWE.

Everyone else I listed has either left, was just there to assist, or wants nothing to do with the verse (I think).
 
I'm going to look past King's comment, since a lot of it will only breed bickering. Most of it's detritus.

Amelia Loneheart (tragically left)
@MonkeyOfLife (probably wants nothing to do with the verse now lol)
@MistaClean (?)
EliminatorVenom (inactive for months)
@KLOL506
@LephyrTheRevanchist
Click to expand...

Monkey is an image editor, as is MistaClean, KLOL is calc group. I'm not trying to be an arse, but they don't have staff voting permissions, their duties as volunteers aren't associated with evaluation of such things.
 
So let me get this straight, is one of the grievances the fact that an actor plays a character with the same name, or that the WWE cast are portrayed in a semi-realistic way in the sense of them all being real people?
 
You're free to contact them via message wall or DM.
 
TheMassivlyUnkn0wn said:
oh yeah what conclusion are we leaning towards rn?
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We're waiting for staff that were in support for WWE being a verse to come hop over.

Damage, Ant, and Bambu think Logan (as well as the verse) should be yeeted, while others (mostly blue users) vehemently disagree with the verse (and Logan to an extent) getting yeeted.
 
KingNanaya said:
I can admit is was pretty unnecessary. I'll delete it
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To be entirely honest, I meant the other King, I sorta forgot you two shared a name. My apologies.

With all due respect, your immediate disregard for a post and inability to properly respond is disingenuous. I provided objective definition's from online sources, a tactic you yourself used, and yet you still elect to flag everything I said as being actual waste according to definition.
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Regarding your first point: even WWEBros agreed that multiple points on here are bad. Being generous, they're misunderstanding and just very bad. Being less generous, they are deliberately misleading. So I do not care, much like I do not care for you trying to uphold them as perfectly reasonable reasons to suddenly swap my opinion.

Regarding your second point: I cannot stress enough that this definition does indeed apply to Jacksepticeye or Markiplier or any number of similar personalities. If our definitions become too loose, we lose our ability to be strict- we must allow all real people a profile. This is very silly.

Regarding your third point: Deride me if you must. Your points support bullshit. I don't care.

Now that I've responded, we are not going to take turns trying to insult each other while trying to sound as formal as possible. The thread is reaching a conclusion, have some respect for people's time.

Damage, Ant, and Bambu think Logan (as well as the verse) should be yeeted, while others (mostly blue users) vehemently disagree with the verse (and Logan to an extent) getting yeeted.
Click to expand...
You missed Deagon, in terms of staff votes.
 
So as the one who started the profiles for the mainline WWE universe, I think it's appropriate that I here give my extensive thoughts on the matter

True to god WWE originals

To say the Undertaker, Kane, and the ultimate warrior are very much the real-world people that their actors play is truly a disservice to these characters and the ones who put so much time behind them. I am 100% confident in saying they aren't the real world people they're beings from hell. it's never shown that Mark Calaway is actually the guy in WWE canon or even the extended canons. The notion of nuking the entire verse is incredibly overkill in itself and also why people are pulling references to the actors that have characters on the VSBW a statement that likely references this point. It is overall a bit reductive when you take these characters in the mix

The rest of the wrestlers (Aside from Logan)

So in the world of wrestling and the real world our world. They are very much two different things. I'll give you an example using John Cena. In universe John Cena is an all-American patriot hero and inspiration he's a soldier of the army which isn't something he's done in the real world the presentation of WWE treats these personalities as their own character in their own world. Wrestlers are given their own lore, their own story, and yes their own personality all often far from what we see of how they would act IRL. These are heavily scripted and written by the writes of WWE and planned out for a long time in the past WWE has been treated as a stage play and it should remain like that under the view.

The Community

For over 2 years at this point, WWE has been worked on extensively by the hard work of it's supporters the verse has a lot of attention to it and a lot of love put into it. At this point when we've gone over 2 years alright with such a verse and after such dedication to it. It would be wrong to get rid of it

Logan

Logan is the person that is truly the one to look at here. Versus battle wiki is quite odd when it comes to talking about controversial figures and controversy as a whole from what I've experienced. To give an example of real-world controversial characters there are three different versions of Hitler the fear behind using logan in a place like this is to use him as the controversial figure when long-standing profiles like these have existed for quite a while

Although it is to note that Logan is a controversial figure in modern time and one that is actively getting himself into more controversy. To this I still can point to my Rest of the Wrestlers Section. I can see the vsbw deleting him due to this but I would wish to see more specific notions behind utilizing controversial characters

Overall

The Nuking of the entire wrestling universe seems to me overall reductive as an activity it's been worked on extensively for close to two years at this point as well reductive of the actual writing and care that does go into the verse's creators. To denote all characters as stage personas is very reductive to what the universe has built for its stars
 
1.- I think it would be a good idea to call back DarkDragonMedeus and KingTempest, they were both here before the thread became deleting the whole verse:
  • KingTempest did not appear again after his first comment
  • DarkDragonMedeus seems to be against it, but I think his basis for that was disproven soon after (all the AVGN stuff), so it would be nice to see what he thinks now.
2.- I'm not sure if Deagonx is really against the existence of the verse:
  • He mentioned that Logan Paul should leave (comment 23 and 43) but after that he only rebutted DaReaperMan and TheMassivlyUnkn0wn (which considering they were basically "let's delete all profiles of this actor, because his performance is basically the same" and "there will be people who will complain about this"... anyone would have done it, for or against the verse [or so I think])
3.-This is shooting me in the foot, but: this is the CTR voting rule:
In order to ensure that all revisions are thoroughly reviewed and approved, it is necessary for a minimum of two staff members to sign off on any proposed changes. The concluding evaluations must be handled by Thread Moderators, Administrators, and Bureaucrats, who should make an effort to base their evaluations on valid arguments, not personal opinions.
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In other words, Tllmbrg's vote doesn't really count.
 
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I don't think the amount of time spent on something validates or invalidates it- whether someone spent two years masterfully crafting a profile against our standards, or whether they spent five minutes, is irrelevant. I do not mean to belittle what work you have done, just that it isn't actually an arguing point. The rest of your points more or less align with others discussed elsewhere so it comes down to interpretation.

In other words, Tllmbrg's vote doesn't really count.
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While true, I do personally value his gobshite opinion. Your point about Deagon is fair. @Deagonx Since you're here already, do you solely vote in favor of deletion of Logan Paul, or WWE as a whole
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If it's a franchise wide deletion it should have its own dedicated thing rather than another Logan Paul thread.
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Who, of the WWE people, has not spoken here that is otherwise active? CRT's and their end goals change all the time, we have no rule against such things.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Who, of the WWE people, has not spoken here that is otherwise active?
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The commentators isn't the issue, it's that six staff where present and the CRT was hijacked by some of those staff to become a franchise wide deletion. If we don't remove it we need more voices than just me, you, Ant, Damage and Deagon.

Not helping is that the title of this thread is about Logan Paul and rather than someone directly asking for a franchise to be deleted. Meaning plenty of people who might weigh in could miss this.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I don't think the amount of time spent on something validates or invalidates it- whether someone spent two years masterfully crafting a profile against our standards, or whether they spent five minutes, is irrelevant. I do not mean to belittle what work you have done, just that it isn't actually an arguing point. The rest of your points more or less align with others discussed elsewhere so it comes down to interpretation.
Click to expand...
it's more to place in all the work that would be torn apart. and I would say the rest of it is to put more of my opinion on the subject and how it wraps around this kind of thing at this point. Clusterfuck of a thread
 
CuteAnimeNekoGirl99 said:
it's more to place in all the work that would be torn apart. and I would say the rest of it is to put more of my opinion on the subject and how it wraps around this kind of thing at this point. Clusterfuck of a thread
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Everyone here has made it very clear that they feel that the amount of work put into WWE pages should immediately disqualify it for deletion, yes.

Not helping is that the title of this thread is about Logan Paul and rather than someone directly asking for a franchise to be deleted. Meaning plenty of people who might weigh in could miss this.
Click to expand...
Ngl, I don't think that's true. I think most people who want to weigh in for the defense, have or will be contacted.
 
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