Avenger Iri 1-A

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Should be closed really I agree, there are several arguments made against the thread and the counter arguements to some aren't really going anywhere.

Unless this become the second Manaka 1-A thread lol

name your top arguments against this thread ( preferably concise), and ill try to debunk them

 

[Paul_Frank]

Black Iri is stated to be the embodiment of the third magic, which is different from the grail, the grail is just 1 application of the third.

Yes, the maddened Black Grail calls itself the embodiment of the third magic, which is in fact, not different from the grail. The actual ritual is repeatedly noted to be the Heaven's Feel. So I'd say the core of the Heaven's Feel would in fact, be the embodiment of the Heaven's Feel. Further, this does not help your proposed scaling, as true magic is also not inherently root level in potency or anything currently, its just obtained upon reaching the root.

"Heaven's Feel is a magic that allows for the materialization of the soul , which stops the inevitable dispersion of the soul once it no longer has an anchor to the world, and essentially makes it transcend to a higher form of existence. It is a magic that realizes true immortality by making the soul into a high-dimensional planar being capable of interacting with the material world as a mental body without having to return to Akasha. The practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine "

This also again, does not help you at all. its a materialization of the soul that lets it stay on earth, therefore clearly this means her connection to the root is 1-A?

To go further to debunk these points, the Black Grail herself tells us she wants to consume Saber and co because she needs more servants as fuel to open a path to the root since 5 wasn't enough (sounds just like the grail doesn't it), she is then immediately called the Greater Grail by us and Lord El Melloi. Right before this, the moment she comes out, Zouken notes that its Justeaze, the cup of heaven (the grail), Irisviel says that what she actually is is the grail corrupted by Angra, this is what leads Justeaze to try and say she's the incarnation of the third magic, she then says before the fight, its time for the servants to return to her (the grail summons servants and that's where they go upon dying), when she's destroyed, the servants disappear and its noted that its because the grail, which summoned them, was destroyed, etc

Its very, very clear that Black Iri is in fact, just the greater grail so whatever this weird argument is, just doesn't work upon actually looking at the tail end of the event

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Yes, the maddened Black Grail calls itself the embodiment of the third magic, which is in fact, not different from the grail. The actual ritual is repeatedly noted to be the Heaven's Feel. So I'd say the core of the Heaven's Feel would in fact, be the embodiment of the Heaven's Feel. Further, this does not help your proposed scaling, as true magic is also not inherently root level in potency or anything currently, its just obtained upon reaching the root.

This also again, does not help you at all. its a materialization of the soul that lets it stay on earth, therefore clearly this means her connection to the root is 1-A?

To go further to debunk these points, the Black Grail herself tells us she wants to consume Saber and co because she needs more servants as fuel to open a path to the root since 5 wasn't enough (sounds just like the grail doesn't it), she is then immediately called the Greater Grail by us and Lord El Melloi. Right before this, the moment she comes out, Zouken notes that its Justeaze, the cup of heaven (the grail), Irisviel says that what she actually is is the grail corrupted by Angra, this is what leads Justeaze to try and say she's the incarnation of the third magic, she then says before the fight, its time for the servants to return to her (the grail summons servants and that's where they go upon dying), when she's destroyed, the servants disappear and its noted that its because the grail, which summoned them, was destroyed, etc

Its very, very clear that Black Iri is in fact, just the greater grail so whatever this weird argument is, just doesn't work upon actually looking at the tail end of the event

The other Irisviel/Justeaze clones arguably have an equal connection to the grail, yet do not possess the connection to the root skill. That enough should imply that Black Iri is different

 

[Paul_Frank]

The other Irisviel/Justeaze clones arguably have an equal connection to the grail, yet do not possess the connection to the root skill.

Wind Iri, Fire Iri, Water Iri, Earth Iri?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Wind Iri, Fire Iri, Water Iri, Earth Iri?

also dress of heaven iri, who is pretty much the "light" version of the grail

 

[Paul_Frank]

also dress of heaven iri, who is pretty much the "light" version of the grail

Dress of Heaven is indeed the only Iri who lacks it. She's not however, the light version of the grail. Angra says something like that and she counters by saying that's not entirely accurate, and Angra agrees, saying he's just bitter the Elemental Iris jumped him.

Her profile makes it clear that the Dress of Heaven Iri is a soul created by the grail and made into a servant, and that she's not manifested properly. She's a manifestation specifically of the personality of Irisviel von Einzbern as a mother and wife, and avoiding manifesting the corrupted parts of the grail (aka the vast majority of it). With her profile also noting that its not even known if she can grant wishes at all, her NP says that its not even the grail acting as a wish granter, and her Extra line saying that its unknown what happens if someone worthy of the grail comes into contact with her, or why and how she even manifested.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Dress of Heaven is indeed the only Iri who lacks it. She's not however, the light version of the grail. Angra says something like that and she counters by saying that's not entirely accurate, and Angra agrees, saying he's just bitter the Elemental Iris jumped him.

Her profile makes it clear that the Dress of Heaven Iri is a soul created by the grail and made into a servant, and that she's not manifested properly. She's a manifestation specifically of the personality of Irisviel von Einzbern as a mother and wife, and avoiding manifesting the corrupted parts of the grail (aka the vast majority of it). With her profile also noting that its not even known if she can grant wishes at all, her NP says that its not even the grail acting as a wish granter, and her Extra line saying that its unknown what happens if someone worthy of the grail comes into contact with her, or why and how she even manifested.

Correction, shes a "terminal" of the grail, as stated on her f/go profile.
"A sneaky person who came out of the Holy Grail. Someone who is the same as the terminal of the Holy Grail.

That is to say, by what kind of cause did this miracle happen? A terminal of the Holy Grail. An infant who returned to the Greater Holy Grail… had transformed into a Servant as its Divided Spirit. Here, Irisviel continues to protect a certain Guardian cursed by fate, being close to this person, yet far away from that same person, no matter where they are."
This implies that she is either of it, or forms it in some way. Either way, she is still connected to the grail, yet lacks this skill.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Correction, shes a "terminal" of the grail, as stated on her f/go profile.
"A sneaky person who came out of the Holy Grail. Someone who is the same as the terminal of the Holy Grail

That is to say, by what kind of cause did this miracle happen? A terminal of the Holy Grail. An infant who returned to the Greater Holy Grail… had transformed into a Servant as its Divided Spirit. Here, Irisviel continues to protect a certain Guardian cursed by fate, being close to this person, yet far away from that same person, no matter where they are."
This implies that she is either of it, or forms it in some way. Either way, she is still connected to the grail, yet lacks this skill.

"a soul created by the Greater Grail, and then manifested as a Servant."- a soul created by the grail

You also seem to have just missed the entire rest of my comment where I mention the fact she's an extremely limited portion of the grail manifested

Rather than manifesting the "All the Evils of the World" aspect from the polluted Fuyuki Grail, she better represents the personality of "Irisviel von Einzbern" as a mother and wife.

Specifically not manifesting the all the worlds evils parts (literally the majority of the grail) and instead just manifesting Iri's personality

Her profile also noting that her NP isn't even a wish granting function

However, this is not the Grail functioning as a wish granter

Combined with the profile stating its unsure what happens if someone with the qualifications to use the grail was to try and use her

Why did she manifest? What would happen to her as a Grail when she comes in contact with the worthy?
There is still no answer for both of these mysteries.

All of this in addition to the part where she's just a soul manifested by the grail and made by a servant, greatly implies she doesn't have connection to the root because she entirely lacks wish granting, and is generally much less connected to the grail than even the four elemental Iri, who are just the grail itself, and not Irisviel's personality made into a soul and then a servant

 

[Migue79]

Disagree with OP for Paul_Frank's reasons.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

"a soul created by the Greater Grail, and then manifested as a Servant."- a soul created by the grail

You also seem to have just missed the entire rest of my comment where I mention the fact she's an extremely limited portion of the grail manifested

Specifically not manifesting the all the worlds evils parts (literally the majority of the grail) and instead just manifesting Iri's personality

Her profile also noting that her NP isn't even a wish granting function

Combined with the profile stating its unsure what happens if someone with the qualifications to use the grail was to try and use her

All of this in addition to the part where she's just a soul manifested by the grail and made by a servant, greatly implies she doesn't have connection to the root because she entirely lacks wish granting, and is generally much less connected to the grail than even the four elemental Iri, who are just the grail itself, and not Irisviel's personality made into a soul and then a servant

"a soul created by the Greater Grail, and then manifested as a Servant."- a soul created by the grail

You also seem to have just missed the entire rest of my comment where I mention the fact she's an extremely limited portion of the grail manifested

Specifically not manifesting the all the worlds evils parts (literally the majority of the grail) and instead just manifesting Iri's personality

Her profile also noting that her NP isn't even a wish granting function

Combined with the profile stating its unsure what happens if someone with the qualifications to use the grail was to try and use her

All of this in addition to the part where she's just a soul manifested by the grail and made by a servant, greatly implies she doesn't have connection to the root because she entirely lacks wish granting, and is generally much less connected to the grail than even the four elemental Iri, who are just the grail itself, and not Irisviel's personality made into a soul and then a servant

This argument would be perfect if servant Iri wasnt wearing the dress of heaven


Dress of Heaven [Armament]
A magical artifact passed down by the Einzberns.
As the heart that governs the Great Holy Grail, it is imbued with sorcery that can materialize the soul for just a few seconds.
Though the dress is pure white, it is actually made of gold. It is inlaid with seven "rings" said to control creation, and the souls of others.
The seven holes in the dress are the seven transformed rings, and they are designed to light up one by one every time a Servant's soul is harvested.
Since any human who touches the dress will be turned to gold, its management must be handled by elementals, demi-humans, or homunculi.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

1 staff member disagreed how many more staff disagreements Do we need before this can be closed

 

[Paul_Frank]

This argument would be perfect if servant Iri wasnt wearing the dress of heaven

Nothing about the dress of heaven disproves anything I said.

All of this also still ignores the fact that you still haven't been able to explain where the connection to the root comes from, and why it should scale to the root itself's Skill, if it's not just from the grail

So not only is there a much more likely explanation, one outright given in the event, but you haven't actually came up with an alternate explanation and reason it should scale, you've just been trying to argue it's not from the grail.

 

[1Nairove]

Wait a second, I want to know if I understood the OP correctly

Iris is connected with the large root and this level of connection is like in the shiki, but there is still an interval that we can classify as an A and a C, and still we give 1A in the holy grail over that?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Wait a second, I want to know if I understood the OP correctly

Iris is connected with the large root and this level of connection is like in the shiki, but there is still an interval that we can classify as an A and a C, and still we give 1A in the holy grail over that?

I think so,

 

[1Nairove]

I think so,

so it's not very consistent and paul naturally rejected it but if someone comes out and writes "agree" with this.. well I guess 1A crtsi for manaka seems to be showing as well lol

 

[Small_Ophion]

Manaka would have a better argument as she's like Shiki with a few nerfs tbh