Avenger Iri 1-A

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This CRT should be easy to justify.
Avenger Irisviel has the same Connection to the Root skill as Void Shiki, but at a rank "C" instead of A.
Keep in mind that Black Iri is the only Irisviel clone to possess this skill.
Due to this I think downscaling Iri from Shiki is valid.

Agree:
Disagree:

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

let hell break loose

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

She gets beaten by pretty normal Servants, the C rank skill lacks the description stating parameters are irrelevant... I don't see why her connection wouldn't be like the one Sakura has post-HF, rather than the one that Shiki has.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

She gets beaten by pretty normal Servants, the C rank skill lacks the description stating parameters are irrelevant... I don't see why her connection wouldn't be like the one Sakura has post-HF, rather than the one that Shiki has.

All other beings that have a connection to the holy grail do not have this skill. Also "Normal parameters will become meaningless to those in possession of this skill." This isn't a shiki specific statement, but for all owners of the connection to the root skill. There is clearly a similarity, since both shiki and avenger iri own the exact same skill.

Also shiki doesnt use her full capabilities to begin with, its kind of pointless to apply the same argument here.

 

[Maxeez]

I can see the proposal but yeah it should be limited to her skill so through reality warping, shouldn’t it ?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

All other beings that have a connection to the holy grail do not have this skill.

Not all things connected to the Grail have a connection to the Root, Sakura only gains it after the events of the Holy Grail War, which is why she has a surplus of magical energy then, but not before despite being a Lesser Grail.

Also shiki doesnt use her full capabilities to begin with, its kind of pointless to apply the same argument here.

No? Black Iri gets beaten when she wants to kill her enemies. Hell, we have characters look at her and determine how strong she is, and it is not that far beyond the Servants in the Fourth War.

This isn't a shiki specific statement, but for all owners of the connection to the root skill.

And it specifies that it applies to them because they are omnipotent wish granters, but Black Iri never gains enough Servants to be able to actually use her wish-granting ability to its fully, and we have no idea to what extent it applies to a C rank version of the skill.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Not all things connected to the Grail have a connection to the Root, Sakura only gains it after the events of the Holy Grail War, which is why she has a surplus of magical energy then, but not before despite being a Lesser Grail.


No? Black Iri gets beaten when she wants to kill her enemies. Hell, we have characters look at her and determine how strong she is, and it is not that far beyond the Servants in the Fourth War.


And it specifies that it applies to them because they are omnipotent wish granters, but Black Iri never gains enough Servants to be able to actually use her wish-granting ability to its fully, and we have no idea to what extent it applies to a C rank version of the skill.

Unless its stated that the c rank version is infinitesimally weaker than the A rank version,I think 1-A is fair. All versions of the skill are confirmed to ignore normal parameters.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Unless its stated that the c rank version is infinitesimally weaker than the A rank version,I think 1-A is fair. All versions of the skill are confirmed to ignore normal parameters.

Ignoring normal parameters being 1-A is a huge leap what

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Ignoring normal parameters being 1-A is a huge leap what

Are you even reading the thread/argument correctly? Black/Avenger Iri has the same connection to the root as Void Shiki, due to possesing the same skill, albeit at a lower rank

 

[Maxeez]

Not all things connected to the Grail have a connection to the Root

I mean yeah, but in this case it states « connection to the Root » directly, though it could mean that it’s linked to it through Holy Grail.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I mean yeah, but in this case it states « connection to the Root » directly, though it could mean that it’s linked to it through Holy Grail.

Also, I believe the greater grail was accepted to be 1-A itself, not sure if that changed

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

proof that this is not a shiki specific statement

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I mean yeah, but in this case it states « connection to the Root » directly, though it could mean that it’s linked to it through Holy Grail.

just a fyi, that beings that are linked to the grail, do not have possession of this skill

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Neutral for now

 

[Paul_Frank]

Are you even reading the thread/argument correctly? Black/Avenger Iri has the same connection to the root as Void Shiki, due to possesing the same skill, albeit at a lower rank

That's a contradictory sentence, if she possesses it at a lower rank, its not the same, and thus has no reason to scale to hers.

Black Iri is Justeaze, in other words, she's the personality of the Greater Grail. This means unlike Shiki, her wishes are actually just from the Greater Grail. We don't have the Greater Grail as 1-A, which is partially due to the fact that the grail punching a hole to the root is only when it has the power of 7 heroic spirits returning to the root, at any amount below that, it can not perform this feat and lacks anything resembling that level of power, when it fulfills a wish, its not with the same level of power as with 7 souls, so its wish granting (the basis of the black grail's skill) is fundamentally not on Shiki's level, so scaling like that makes no sense

Additionally to this, as stated above she kinda does like
Lose, and unlike Shiki, she was actually trying

With those combined it is pretty hard to argue that connection to the root C scales to connection to the root A. Skills being infinitely weaker than higher versions isn't actually impossible, see Magic Resistance for instance, at the higher end we have Surtr, who is just straight up immune to basically all magic, on the lower end we have Teach, who can't even negate any spells and just takes slightly reduced damage

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

That's a contradictory sentence, if she possesses it at a lower rank, its not the same, and thus has no reason to scale to hers.

Black Iri is Justeaze, in other words, she's the personality of the Greater Grail. This means unlike Shiki, her wishes are actually just from the Greater Grail. We don't have the Greater Grail as 1-A, which is partially due to the fact that the grail punching a hole to the root is only when it has the power of 7 heroic spirits returning to the root, at any amount below that, it can not perform this feat and lacks anything resembling that level of power, when it fulfills a wish, its not with the same level of power as with 7 souls, so its wish granting (the basis of the black grail's skill) is fundamentally not on Shiki's level, so scaling like that makes no sense

Additionally to this, as stated above she kinda does like
Lose, and unlike Shiki, she was actually trying

With those combined it is pretty hard to argue that connection to the root C scales to connection to the root A. Skills being infinitely weaker than higher versions isn't actually impossible, see Magic Resistance for instance, at the higher end we have Surtr, who is just straight up immune to basically all magic, on the lower end we have Teach, who can't even negate any spells and just takes slightly reduced damage

So no 1-A black iri?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Correct, I'm pretty sure Black Iri and Sieg were taken into account when we decided to make the Greater Grail not scale to 1-A

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That's a contradictory sentence, if she possesses it at a lower rank, its not the same, and thus has no reason to scale to hers.

Black Iri is Justeaze, in other words, she's the personality of the Greater Grail. This means unlike Shiki, her wishes are actually just from the Greater Grail. We don't have the Greater Grail as 1-A, which is partially due to the fact that the grail punching a hole to the root is only when it has the power of 7 heroic spirits returning to the root, at any amount below that, it can not perform this feat and lacks anything resembling that level of power, when it fulfills a wish, its not with the same level of power as with 7 souls, so its wish granting (the basis of the black grail's skill) is fundamentally not on Shiki's level, so scaling like that makes no sense

Additionally to this, as stated above she kinda does like
Lose, and unlike Shiki, she was actually trying

With those combined it is pretty hard to argue that connection to the root C scales to connection to the root A. Skills being infinitely weaker than higher versions isn't actually impossible, see Magic Resistance for instance, at the higher end we have Surtr, who is just straight up immune to basically all magic, on the lower end we have Teach, who can't even negate any spells and just takes slightly reduced damage

"Normal parameters will become meaningless to those possession of this skill" This statement says nothing about rank.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Correct, I'm pretty sure Black Iri and Sieg were taken into account when we decided to make the Greater Grail not scale to 1-A

The difference is that Servant Sieg does not have the connection to the root skill,Black Iri does, however.

 

[Maxeez]

Also, I believe the greater grail was accepted to be 1-A itself, not sure if that changed

Though, I just remembered that people like Caster Sieg and Angra got their 1-A keys removed despite being linked to the greater grail.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Disagree with the CRT because of @Paul_Frank’s reasons above

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Though, I just remembered that people like Caster Sieg and Angra got their 1-A keys removed despite being linked to the greater grail.

Caster Sieg and Angra do not have possession of the "Connection to the Root" skill,however. Black Iri's connection is clearly similar to Shikis, and different from connection via Greater Grail. ( Why have the same skill if they are not similar?)

 

[Maxeez]

Caster Sieg and Angra do not have possession of the "Connection to the Root" skill,however. Black Iri's connection is clearly similar to Shikis, and different from connection via Greater Grail. ( Why have the same skill if they are not similar?)

Black Iri is apart of Angra’s profile, just saying.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Black Iri is apart of Angra’s profile, just saying.

But they are different beings, and i believe Iris root connection wasnt brought up in the thread

 

[Paul_Frank]

"Normal parameters will become meaningless to those possession of this skill" This statement says nothing about rank.

This statement means nothing in general, this does not support your point about their skill being 1-A because Shiki's is

Fujino's mystic eyes make normal parameters meaningless as well, is that 1-A?

Caster Sieg and Angra do not have possession of the "Connection to the Root" skill,however. Black Iri's connection is clearly similar to Shikis, and different from connection via Greater Grail. ( Why have the same skill if they are not similar?)

It doesn't matter if they have the skill, Sieg and Angra and her have the connection to the grail, that's the reason for the skill in the end, they don't have it for any number of reasons that make more sense than Black Iri having it for unrelated reasons. Hell, Black Iri is literally just Justeaze corrupted by Angra, in other words, the exact same thing we see in Zero just outside of the grail this time, they aren't seperate beings.

If your argument is unironically "her connection to the root has nothing to do with the grail." then, pray tell, where is it from? Shiki has it for obvious reasons, but if the Black Grail has it for reasons other than being the grail, I'd love to hear what they are and why they should scale to the root itself's connection to the root.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That's a contradictory sentence, if she possesses it at a lower rank, its not the same, and thus has no reason to scale to hers.

Black Iri is Justeaze, in other words, she's the personality of the Greater Grail. This means unlike Shiki, her wishes are actually just from the Greater Grail. We don't have the Greater Grail as 1-A, which is partially due to the fact that the grail punching a hole to the root is only when it has the power of 7 heroic spirits returning to the root, at any amount below that, it can not perform this feat and lacks anything resembling that level of power, when it fulfills a wish, its not with the same level of power as with 7 souls, so its wish granting (the basis of the black grail's skill) is fundamentally not on Shiki's level, so scaling like that makes no sense

Additionally to this, as stated above she kinda does like
Lose, and unlike Shiki, she was actually trying

With those combined it is pretty hard to argue that connection to the root C scales to connection to the root A. Skills being infinitely weaker than higher versions isn't actually impossible, see Magic Resistance for instance, at the higher end we have Surtr, who is just straight up immune to basically all magic, on the lower end we have Teach, who can't even negate any spells and just takes slightly reduced damage

With magic resistance, for proof of them being infinitely more potent, you would have to have a feat of a character possessing rank A or EX mr surviving an attack of infinite AP. For example, negating a continental attack doesn't mean you're infinitely durable, it just means you have an unknown durability, but it is at leat continental

 

[Maxeez]

But they are different beings, and i believe Iris root connection wasnt brought up in the thread

I can’t say, I’ll just stay neutral for now.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Unless its stated that the c rank version is infinitesimally weaker than the A rank version,I think 1-A is fair. All versions of the skill are confirmed to ignore normal parameters.

I disagree.
...Dunno what else to say.

Also, I believe the greater grail was accepted to be 1-A itself, not sure if that changed

Even if it was, she only had- what, five Servants of the seven needed for it to be 'omnipotent'?


And you are really dodging around the whole "Servants beat her up when she's trying to win" thing.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This statement means nothing in general, this does not support your point about their skill being 1-A because Shiki's is

Fujino's mystic eyes make normal parameters meaningless as well, is that 1-A?



It doesn't matter if they have the skill, Sieg and Angra and her have the connection to the grail, that's the reason for the skill in the end, they don't have it for any number of reasons that make more sense than Black Iri having it for unrelated reasons. Hell, Black Iri is literally just Justeaze corrupted by Angra, in other words, the exact same thing we see in Zero just outside of the grail this time, they aren't seperate beings.

If your argument is unironically "her connection to the root has nothing to do with the grail." then, pray tell, where is it from? Shiki has it for obvious reasons, but if the Black Grail has it for reasons other than being the grail, I'd love to hear what they are and why they should scale to the root itself's connection to the root.

All other servants who posses a connection to the grail, do not have possession of this skill. So the fact that the connection is different in some way is very clear. Eg, angra doesn't have the connection to the root skill, despite literally becoming the holy grail.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

This thread is just too based

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I disagree.
...Dunno what else to say.


Even if it was, she only had- what, five Servants of the seven needed for it to be 'omnipotent'?


And you are really dodging around the whole "Servants beat her up when she's trying to win" thing.

Nasu said void Shiki can fight defensive vs average servant, does not mean shes suddenly weaker.

 

[Small_Ophion]

Honestly I disagree for the reasons mentioned above and because of Manaka Sajyou who is in a similar situation so at best Iri's Connection to the Root should be kept at unknown

 

[Paul_Frank]

With magic resistance, for proof of them being infinitely more potent, you would have to have a feat of a character possessing rank A or EX mr surviving an attack of infinite AP. For example, negating a continental attack doesn't mean you're infinitely durable, it just means you have an unknown durability, but it is at leat continental

Tier 1 spells exist, Surtr is immune to spells including those

3d spells exist, Blackbeard can't cancel them and just takes slightly reduced damage from them

Several degrees of infinity between those

All other servants who posses a connection to the grail, do not have possession of this skill. So the fact that the connection is different in some way is very clear. Eg, angra doesn't have the connection to the root skill, despite literally becoming the holy grail.

The Angra we summon isn't Angra who is connected to the grail, its just him as an Avenger normally (pre dying and being absorbed), there's your reason for him, the Sieg we summon similarly isn't able to connect to the grail and do wishes, the actual Sieg, who is creating the terminal, is since he literally is holding it. So there's reasons they don't have it, despite Iri having it and being connected to the grail, so your argument isn't necessarily true at all

Again though, please inform me what reason she has then, besides being connected to the grail, to have the skill, and why that reason should scale in potency to the Root itself's wish granting.

Nasu said void Shiki can fight defensive vs average servant, does not mean shes suddenly weaker.

Nasu did not say this, Nasu said the third personality of Shiki

Touko makes it clear that post coma is a new personality, thus three. Araya makes it clear that when holding a katana, its a new personality, thus a different potential third.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This thread is just too based

Tier 1 spells exist, Surtr is immune to spells including those

3d spells exist, Blackbeard can't cancel them and just takes slightly reduced damage from them

Several degrees of infinity between those

The Angra we summon isn't Angra who is connected to the grail, its just him as an Avenger normally (pre dying and being absorbed), there's your reason for him, the Sieg we summon similarly isn't able to connect to the grail and do wishes, the actual Sieg, who is creating the terminal, is since he literally is holding it. So there's reasons they don't have it, despite Iri having it and being connected to the grail, so your argument isn't necessarily true at all

Again though, please inform me what reason she has then, besides being connected to the grail, to have the skill, and why that reason should scale in potency to the Root itself's wish granting.



Nasu did not say this, Nasu said the third personality of Shiki

Touko makes it clear that post coma is a new personality, thus three. Araya makes it clear that when holding a katana, its a new personality, thus a different potential third.

Black Iri is stated to be the embodiment of the third magic, which is different from the grail, the grail is just 1 application of the third.
"Heaven's Feel is a magic that allows for the materialization of the soul , which stops the inevitable dispersion of the soul once it no longer has an anchor to the world, and essentially makes it transcend to a higher form of existence. It is a magic that realizes true immortality by making the soul into a high-dimensional planar being capable of interacting with the material world as a mental body without having to return to Akasha. The practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine "

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This thread is just too based

Wank is my body

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Wank is my body

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyway, disagree as well based on what has been debated above, this thread need be closed soon too

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Wank is my body

Quit wanking and start abstaining

 

[Small_Ophion]

Should be closed really I agree, there are several arguments made against the thread and the counter arguements to some aren't really going anywhere.

Unless this become the second Manaka 1-A thread lol

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Black Iri is stated to be the embodiment of the third magic, which is different from the grail, the grail is just 1 application of the third.
"Heaven's Feel is a magic that allows for the materialization of the soul , which stops the inevitable dispersion of the soul once it no longer has an anchor to the world, and essentially makes it transcend to a higher form of existence. It is a magic that realizes true immortality by making the soul into a high-dimensional planar being capable of interacting with the material world as a mental body without having to return to Akasha. The practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine "

Also the third magic is itself a path to the root, the holy grail is a weaker version/imitation