Ninjago: Overlord's page revision

[Antvasima]

I think we can add Nonexistente type 1 and then this thread can be closed. We have gone through the entire history of the Overlord and all his abilities ever shown and mentioned. If there is ever new information about his abilities (which I doubt), then I'll just start another thread.

Can I?

Going by the first post, we do not seem to have sufficiently explicit evidence for nonexistent physiology here, just personal speculation.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Going by the first post, we do not seem to have sufficiently explicit evidence for nonexistent physiology here, just personal speculation.

Actually, that was in regards to type 2. Not existing physically is pretty clear considering everything else, it's conceptual nonexistence which was the main issue

I certainly don't think a eastern themed kids show is using Augustinian theology to make evil conceptually nonexistent lol

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Going by the first post, we do not seem to have sufficiently explicit evidence for nonexistent physiology here, just personal speculation.

Actually, that was in regards to type 2. Not existing physically is pretty clear considering everything else, it's conceptual nonexistence which was the main issue

I certainly don't think a eastern themed kids show is using Augustinian theology to make evil conceptually nonexistent lol

Well, as soon as you allow or forbid me to make this final edit, we will finally finish it. Once you decide, please let me know. I'm waiting for your answer.

Also a really huge thanks for the help with the revision @Antvasima @Yobo_Blue @TheGreatMaster12

 

[Antvasima]

@Yobo_Blue

Can you explain your evaluations regarding what should be done here in an easily overviewed single post please?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

@Yobo_Blue @TheGreatMaster12

I saw here that FSM has manipulations of reality (they include Conceptual Manipulation). Over fought with FSM and latter couldn't get rid of him, but okay, we don't know any special details. We know that Lloyd, having all the powers of the FSM, also fought with the Overlord and, judging by their final battle in the second season, he attacked him conceptually (since he did not just knock him out of Garmadon's body with his attack, but at the same time cleared his body of the Overlord influence and and, it seems, destroyed the Overlord). Is it possible to assume that the Overlord has High-Godly Regeneration? Or is more information needed?

 

[Antvasima]

@Yobo_Blue

Can you explain your evaluations regarding what should be done here in an easily overviewed single post please?

@Yobo_Blue @TheGreatMaster12

I saw here that FSM has manipulations of reality (they include Conceptual Manipulation). Over fought with FSM and latter couldn't get rid of him, but okay, we don't know any special details. We know that Lloyd, having all the powers of the FSM, also fought with the Overlord and, judging by their final battle in the second season, he attacked him conceptually (since he did not just knock him out of Garmadon's body with his attack, but at the same time cleared his body of the Overlord influence and and, it seems, destroyed the Overlord). Is it possible to assume that the Overlord has High-Godly Regeneration? Or is more information needed?

@Yobo_Blue

 

[Zacisawesome101]

All of this stuff is either untrue or misunderstood.

About a time manip thing: that was some sort of retcon, cause, well, FSM have time manip -> Overlord have powers of FSM (i remind you, that was 2014) -> Hands of Time was released in 2017. In short, this is the explanation for why the Overlord just didn't use the time to defeat the Ninjas.

About tier: Overlord planned to corrupt all 17 worlds with Golden Power (16 worlds relative to Ninjago). In peak form, this is obviously a low multiverse level. FSM is also a low multiverse, until the creators show something more worthwhile. Overlord with right vessel also have 2-C, cause, well, this thing literally corrupts souls and anything else it touches. It even can corrupt Creation, lmao. Overlord and his darkness - it's an abstract force, that "feasts on creation". He is not part of Creation (17 realms also called "Realms of Creation" in March of the Oni), he's something more - directly abstract evil. And he also mentioned, that powers of Garmadon "were a gift from him". It can be a reference to the fact that the Overlord is also responsible for Destruction, as a manifestation of evil. Or else that the Darkness has so strengthened Garmadon that even the original Oni are afraid of him.

Yea, I completely agree with how you distributed the power level for the Overlord forms (but I will still note that, despite the 6th level, the Overlord had very specific abilities: in the form of a Dragon, the Overlord had spatial manipulation inside Absolute Darkness; in the form of a Golden Master, the Overlord has limited manipulation of reality; in The Crystal King's form, Overlord... Didn't show anything worthwhile at all. Just corrupted the city. This form should be set to level 7-B or 7-B+

Now, can I now write down the abilities listed in the post into its basic spirit form? @Antvasima

Everything else is nice, I just scratch my head cause it’s explicitly said in show that the Golden Master had the powers of FSM, and FSM mastered time explicitly

considering that time as an element hadn’t been created by the writing team, I feel like we can chalk that up to more just the growth of the series, especially since Tommy even says the things explicitly revealed in the show take precedence over what he says on twitter

but yes everything else is correct, it’s pretty clearly shown that the overlord is more of a conceptual being, what with him being said to be evil itself, being part of the balance, only being able to work through physical shells and vessels, being able to take control of certain things

i also think the overlord and FSM should be 2-C, as it’s pretty clear in the Dark Island Trilogy that both the natural power of Dark Matter and the power that Clouse gained from it would destroy or corrupt the multiverse down to the balance governing the realms themselves, and Crystalized confirms this was the Overlord’s ultimate goal, with the power of the First Spinjitzu Master being actively preventing that

However, this would probably be peak Overlord and FSM as the only people who scale to this, as young/child FSM was only strong enough to create the islands of Ninjago, and lost to Wojira, who is around High 6-A to 5-C, since she controls the ocean of the world and potentially created the moon according to Way of the Departed

so imo, now that the lore for the main series is more or less complete, I’d probably put USM Lloyd and Dragon Form Overlord as High 6-A, since Lloyd at that point has the power of the Golden Weapons within him rather than his full Oni/Dragon power, and the Overlord’s power is limited by his physical shell, which at that time was Garmadon

So God-Tiers would be Adult FSM and Full Power Overlord, who are 2-C, High Tiers would be Wojira, Dragon/Golden/Crystal Overlord, Ocean Power Nya, and USM Lloyd at High 6-A, and everyone else is 8-A

This stuff is not true. First off, The First Spinjitzu Master and Overlord should not be 2-C. Clouse's goal in the Dark Island Trilogy was to use Dark Matter, Darkness and his own Dark Magic in order to bring the two halves of Ninjago together, which shouldn't scale to anyone, really. Wu says this would destroy Ninjago and 'perhaps all the Realms', here's the thing; Wu isn't an expert on the Realms. He mistakes the Never-Realm and the Departed Realm in 'The Kaiju Protocol', and explicitly says he does not know why the Never-Realm is so different from the other Realms. The idea that he is so much of an expert that he knows that bringing two halves of Ninjago together would destroy every Realm is laughable. It's also never brought up again or supported so at best it's simply hyperbole and at worst it's a huge outlier. Especially because the First Spinjitzu Master did not create the Realm of Ninjago like it says on his page. He only explicitly created the continent of Ninjago, as stated in 'Master of the Sea':

'She had to become a greater power, the ocean itself. She merged with it, a state she could never return from. She sacrificed herself to save the world. As for the power of the Wave and the Storm, the First Spinjitzu Master gave the first to the king of the sea, and the second to the leader of the islanders for safekeeping. When the seas calmed and grew still, the First Spinjitzu Master created Ninjago, and the world was in harmony. Balance. But now, my brother seeks to change that.'

The idea that the FSM only created the continent is also supported by the fact that the Golden Peaks were on the planet before the FSM arrived. Another thing to make the Clouse thing a huge outlier is that the Overlord's goals and ultimate plan is completely and totally misrepresented and wrong.

Everything else is nice, I just scratch my head cause it’s explicitly said in show that the Golden Master had the powers of FSM, and FSM mastered time explicitly

Wrong. In Season 3's 'The Curse of the Golden Master', it's said 'Since the first dawn, our elders knew of the Curse of the Golden Master, when he who had the powers equal to the First Spinjitzu Master would rise and usher in the last of the setting suns. With no equal adversary, his power will go unmatched. His destructive rule will change the face of the world, and he will not stop until every man, woman, and Serpentine are enslaved under his control.' This is explicitly referring to his power as in strength, not Elemental Powers, as the other Elemental Powers weren't in development at this stage. It's clearly only referring to the Golden Power, which is the only thing the Overlord siphoned off of Golden Lloyd. The Golden Power is great and gives stuff like Creation, Telekinesis, the ability to create the Realm Crystal, etc., but it does not give him the other Elemental Powers. Especially since Lloyd's Golden Power was given when the Ninja gave him Earth, Ice, Fire and Lightning in the Temple of Light in Season 2. It does not nor has it ever contained Time.

'corrupt the multiverse down to the balance governing the realms themselves, and Crystalized confirms this was the Overlord’s ultimate goal, with the power of the First Spinjitzu Master being actively preventing that'
'Overlord planned to corrupt all 17 worlds with Golden Power (16 worlds relative to Ninjago). In peak form, this is obviously a low multiverse level. FSM is also a low multiverse, until the creators show something more worthwhile.'

Corruption and Destruction are too very different things. The Golden Power refers to the Golden Master, I assume, and Acidicus' prophecy of the Golden Master refers only to enslaving man, woman and Serpentine and changing the face of the world, Ninjago. He never states that his goal was to corrupt every Realm. That is a total fabrication. Literally this quote below is the only mention of anything close to corrupting all 17 Realms in Season 3, and even then it's vague, only brought up once in 2 words, and is never revisited. Given his penchant for theatrics and his schlocky monologuing villain thing, this is a simple hyperbole and shouldn't be considered in great detail.
'Then find more. Once I become physical again, and rid the scourge that is the ninja, I will walk Ninjago with the power to rule this world, and beyond!'

If you're referring to his goal in Crystalized, then again, that is wrong. He claims that his goal is to destroy the Balance to bring peace in the dark, but 'destroying the Balance' is not destroying something physical. It is a metaphysical concept and the idea of destroying the Balance is simply the idea of one force of Light/Dark overwhelming the other. When Garmadon is defeated in Season 9, Jay refers to 'restoring the Balance', it's the idea of two opposing forces living in harmony. It is not a feat of strength to say he 'destroyed the Balance' as that is a metaphorical term used to refer to opposing forces. Garmadon speaks of a societal Balance in 'Blackout', and Wu and Garmadon are gifted Creation and Destruction to represent the Balance, as confirmed by Tommy Andreasen. Even then, his goal was to corrupt the Powers of Creation, not every Realm. Total lie.

Also also, The Overlord's method of achieving this goal is by corrupting the Powers of Creation and petrifying everyone into crystal zombies or statues. It doesn't involve actual destruction.

'Overlord with right vessel also have 2-C, cause, well, this thing literally corrupts souls and anything else it touches. It even can corrupt Creation, lmao. Overlord and his darkness - it's an abstract force, that "feasts on creation". He is not part of Creation (17 realms also called "Realms of Creation" in March of the Oni), he's something more - directly abstract evil. And he also mentioned, that powers of Garmadon "were a gift from him". It can be a reference to the fact that the Overlord is also responsible for Destruction, as a manifestation of evil. Or else that the Darkness has so strengthened Garmadon that even the original Oni are afraid of him.

Untrue. The Overlord cannot corrupt souls and anything else it touches. He can possess people, and use his crystals and Dark Matter to corrupt people, but he cannot do it through touch. That is false and never supported in series. The Overlord's Darkness can also not corrupt Creation itself. In Crystalized Wu says 'The Overlord doesn't want to destroy you! He wants to corrupt the powers of Creation!', the Elements/Powers of Creation refer to Earth, Ice, Fire and Lightning. Even then, it's not an impressive feat as Creation is a powerful force, sure, but it's still just a power, similar to Destruction. Corrupting Golden Power would be the real impressive feat, but he doesn't do that. Also, that quote about Darkness 'feeding on Creation', that's also not reliable. It comes from the Book of Elemental Powers, which, as stated by Tommy Andreasen, is a book written by a young boy in Ninjago named Jake, and it relies on his understanding of the world (). Not to mention, that book has wrong information in it, such as Nyad being Nya's ancestor, and timeline errors with Jay at the Tournament of Elements. Not a reliable source.

Garmadon's powers being a 'gift' from the Overlord is also misrepresented here. It is said in 'Dragon Form' that the Overlord is responsible for corrupting the Great Devourer and getting it to bite Garmadon, which the bite has been stated by TA to have throwm his Oni side out of whack and unbalanced the forces inside Garmadon. It did not create Destruction.

Small point but technically the Overlord was a part of Creation, as he was created when the FSM created Ninjago, which needed a force of Darkness to counterbalance the Light. The Oni are also not afraid of Garmadon. They were afraid of the Golden Weapons, and The Omega even fought evenly with and defeated Garmadon in a fight.

Yea, I completely agree with how you distributed the power level for the Overlord forms (but I will still note that, despite the 6th level, the Overlord had very specific abilities: in the form of a Dragon, the Overlord had spatial manipulation inside Absolute Darkness; in the form of a Golden Master, the Overlord has limited manipulation of reality; in The Crystal King's form, Overlord... Didn't show anything worthwhile at all. Just corrupted the city. This form should be set to level 7-B or 7-B+

Untrue. The Overlord as the Crystal King fought and overwhelmed both Lloyd and Garmadon, and he called his centaur form a worthy vessel for his return. He shouldn't be any weaker than the FSM as he is stated to be his direct equal in Season 2. Speaking of Season 2...

'Also Overlord doesn't exist on the mortal plane of existence without vessels or shells. [Said in his official description on LEGO.com (2017 museum thing) and in second season a few times]. His plane of existence was shown in S.15, Ep.13 "A Sinister Shadow" as some sort of void. [That place wasn't a Departed Realm, cause Overlord, well, can't die]'

The Overlord was not in a different plane of existence in Season 2. He was trapped on the Dark Island and needed to spread his influence to Ninjago through Garmatron to enter Ninjago. That is explicitly shown throughout Season 2 and I do not know how this was misunderstood. Also, this museum is also innacurate in many ways and imo shouldn't be used. It says he was 'finally destroyed by Zane' when Crystalized has shown he wasn't. Even if you DO take the museum into account, it contradicts your statement and backs up mine, since it says 'Also known as the Dark Lord, the Overlord was consigned to Dark Island after the First Spinjitzu Master split the land in half.'. The Overlord being trapped on the Dark Island in Season 2 is the truth. He was not in a different plane of existence. Considering he does exist as a spirit on the Dark Island, the point you are trying to make is inaccurate.


A lot of wrong information here.

 

[Zacisawesome101]

All of this stuff is either untrue or misunderstood.


This stuff is not true. First off, The First Spinjitzu Master and Overlord should not be 2-C. Clouse's goal in the Dark Island Trilogy was to use Dark Matter, Darkness and his own Dark Magic in order to bring the two halves of Ninjago together, which shouldn't scale to anyone, really. Wu says this would destroy Ninjago and 'perhaps all the Realms', here's the thing; Wu isn't an expert on the Realms. He mistakes the Never-Realm and the Departed Realm in 'The Kaiju Protocol', and explicitly says he does not know why the Never-Realm is so different from the other Realms. The idea that he is so much of an expert that he knows that bringing two halves of Ninjago together would destroy every Realm is laughable. It's also never brought up again or supported so at best it's simply hyperbole and at worst it's a huge outlier. Especially because the First Spinjitzu Master did not create the Realm of Ninjago like it says on his page. He only explicitly created the continent of Ninjago, as stated in 'Master of the Sea':

'She had to become a greater power, the ocean itself. She merged with it, a state she could never return from. She sacrificed herself to save the world. As for the power of the Wave and the Storm, the First Spinjitzu Master gave the first to the king of the sea, and the second to the leader of the islanders for safekeeping. When the seas calmed and grew still, the First Spinjitzu Master created Ninjago, and the world was in harmony. Balance. But now, my brother seeks to change that.'

The idea that the FSM only created the continent is also supported by the fact that the Golden Peaks were on the planet before the FSM arrived. Another thing to make the Clouse thing a huge outlier is that the Overlord's goals and ultimate plan is completely and totally misrepresented and wrong.



Wrong. In Season 3's 'The Curse of the Golden Master', it's said 'Since the first dawn, our elders knew of the Curse of the Golden Master, when he who had the powers equal to the First Spinjitzu Master would rise and usher in the last of the setting suns. With no equal adversary, his power will go unmatched. His destructive rule will change the face of the world, and he will not stop until every man, woman, and Serpentine are enslaved under his control.' This is explicitly referring to his power as in strength, not Elemental Powers, as the other Elemental Powers weren't in development at this stage. It's clearly only referring to the Golden Power, which is the only thing the Overlord siphoned off of Golden Lloyd. The Golden Power is great and gives stuff like Creation, Telekinesis, the ability to create the Realm Crystal, etc., but it does not give him the other Elemental Powers. Especially since Lloyd's Golden Power was given when the Ninja gave him Earth, Ice, Fire and Lightning in the Temple of Light in Season 2. It does not nor has it ever contained Time.

'corrupt the multiverse down to the balance governing the realms themselves, and Crystalized confirms this was the Overlord’s ultimate goal, with the power of the First Spinjitzu Master being actively preventing that'
'Overlord planned to corrupt all 17 worlds with Golden Power (16 worlds relative to Ninjago). In peak form, this is obviously a low multiverse level. FSM is also a low multiverse, until the creators show something more worthwhile.'

Corruption and Destruction are too very different things. The Golden Power refers to the Golden Master, I assume, and Acidicus' prophecy of the Golden Master refers only to enslaving man, woman and Serpentine and changing the face of the world, Ninjago. He never states that his goal was to corrupt every Realm. That is a total fabrication. Literally this quote below is the only mention of anything close to corrupting all 17 Realms in Season 3, and even then it's vague, only brought up once in 2 words, and is never revisited. Given his penchant for theatrics and his schlocky monologuing villain thing, this is a simple hyperbole and shouldn't be considered in great detail.
'Then find more. Once I become physical again, and rid the scourge that is the ninja, I will walk Ninjago with the power to rule this world, and beyond!'

If you're referring to his goal in Crystalized, then again, that is wrong. He claims that his goal is to destroy the Balance to bring peace in the dark, but 'destroying the Balance' is not destroying something physical. It is a metaphysical concept and the idea of destroying the Balance is simply the idea of one force of Light/Dark overwhelming the other. When Garmadon is defeated in Season 9, Jay refers to 'restoring the Balance', it's the idea of two opposing forces living in harmony. It is not a feat of strength to say he 'destroyed the Balance' as that is a metaphorical term used to refer to opposing forces. Garmadon speaks of a societal Balance in 'Blackout', and Wu and Garmadon are gifted Creation and Destruction to represent the Balance, as confirmed by Tommy Andreasen. Even then, his goal was to corrupt the Powers of Creation, not every Realm. Total lie.

Overlord with right vessel also have 2-C, cause, well, this thing literally corrupts souls and anything else it touches. It even can corrupt Creation, lmao. Overlord and his darkness - it's an abstract force, that "feasts on creation". He is not part of Creation (17 realms also called "Realms of Creation" in March of the Oni), he's something more - directly abstract evil. And he also mentioned, that powers of Garmadon "were a gift from him". It can be a reference to the fact that the Overlord is also responsible for Destruction, as a manifestation of evil. Or else that the Darkness has so strengthened Garmadon that even the original Oni are afraid of him.

Untrue. The Overlord cannot corrupt souls and anything else it touches. He can possess people, and use his crystals and Dark Matter to corrupt people, but he cannot do it through touch. That is false and never supported in series. The Overlord's Darkness can also not corrupt Creation itself. In Crystalized Wu says 'The Overlord doesn't want to destroy you! He wants to corrupt the powers of Creation!', the Elements/Powers of Creation refer to Earth, Ice, Fire and Lightning. Even then, it's not an impressive feat as Creation is a powerful force, sure, but it's still just a power, similar to Destruction. Corrupting Golden Power would be the real impressive feat, but he doesn't do that. Also, that quote about Darkness 'feeding on Creation', that's also not reliable. It comes from the Book of Elemental Powers, which, as stated by Tommy Andreasen, is a book written by a young boy in Ninjago named Jake, and it relies on his understanding of the world (). Not to mention, that book has wrong information in it, such as Nyad being Nya's ancestor, and timeline errors with Jay at the Tournament of Elements. Not a reliable source.

Garmadon's powers being a 'gift' from the Overlord is also misrepresented here. It is said in 'Dragon Form' that the Overlord is responsible for corrupting the Great Devourer and getting it to bite Garmadon, which the bite has been stated by TA to have throwm his Oni side out of whack and unbalanced the forces inside Garmadon. It did not create Destruction.

Small point but technically the Overlord was a part of Creation, as he was created when the FSM created Ninjago, which needed a force of Darkness to counterbalance the Light. The Oni are also not afraid of Garmadon. They were afraid of the Golden Weapons, and The Omega even fought evenly with and defeated Garmadon in a fight.

Yea, I completely agree with how you distributed the power level for the Overlord forms (but I will still note that, despite the 6th level, the Overlord had very specific abilities: in the form of a Dragon, the Overlord had spatial manipulation inside Absolute Darkness; in the form of a Golden Master, the Overlord has limited manipulation of reality; in The Crystal King's form, Overlord... Didn't show anything worthwhile at all. Just corrupted the city. This form should be set to level 7-B or 7-B+

Untrue. The Overlord as the Crystal King fought and overwhelmed both Lloyd and Garmadon, and he called his centaur form a worthy vessel for his return. He shouldn't be any weaker than the FSM as he is stated to be his direct equal in Season 2. Speaking of Season 2...

'Also Overlord doesn't exist on the mortal plane of existence without vessels or shells. [Said in his official description on LEGO.com (2017 museum thing) and in second season a few times]. His plane of existence was shown in S.15, Ep.13 "A Sinister Shadow" as some sort of void. [That place wasn't a Departed Realm, cause Overlord, well, can't die]'

The Overlord was not in a different plane of existence in Season 2. He was trapped on the Dark Island and needed to spread his influence to Ninjago through Garmatron to enter Ninjago. That is explicitly shown throughout Season 2 and I do not know how this was misunderstood. Also, this museum is also innacurate in many ways and imo shouldn't be used. It says he was 'finally destroyed by Zane' when Crystalized has shown he wasn't. Even if you DO take the museum into account, it contradicts your statement and backs up mine, since it says 'Also known as the Dark Lord, the Overlord was consigned to Dark Island after the First Spinjitzu Master split the land in half.'. The Overlord being trapped on the Dark Island in Season 2 is the truth. He was not in a different plane of existence. Considering he does exist as a spirit on the Dark Island, the point you are trying to make is inaccurate.


A lot of wrong information here.

It's also worth noting that the Oni's corruption of the 16 Realms involved petrifying everyone in a darkness cloud, took months to reach Ninjago, and does not involve any Destructive potential, so it would not scale to AP to anyone.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Speaking of Season 2...

'Also Overlord doesn't exist on the mortal plane of existence without vessels or shells. [Said in his official description on LEGO.com (2017 museum thing) and in second season a few times]. His plane of existence was shown in S.15, Ep.13 "A Sinister Shadow" as some sort of void. [That place wasn't a Departed Realm, cause Overlord, well, can't die]'

The Overlord was not in a different plane of existence in Season 2. He was trapped on the Dark Island and needed to spread his influence to Ninjago through Garmatron to enter Ninjago. That is explicitly shown throughout Season 2 and I do not know how this was misunderstood. Also, this museum is also innacurate in many ways and imo shouldn't be used. It says he was 'finally destroyed by Zane' when Crystalized has shown he wasn't. Even if you DO take the museum into account, it contradicts your statement and backs up mine, since it says 'Also known as the Dark Lord, the Overlord was consigned to Dark Island after the First Spinjitzu Master split the land in half.'. The Overlord being trapped on the Dark Island in Season 2 is the truth. He was not in a different plane of existence. Considering he does exist as a spirit on the Dark Island, the point you are trying to make is inaccurate.

In season 2, it was said (as you can see in the scans that I threw off in the post) that the Overlord is trapped outside of this world while the Balance is held in one position. In addition, "imprisonment" on the Dark Island refers exclusively to the place in which the Overlord can wield at least some influence, even being outside the plane of existence of mortals because, as we could see in "The Return of the Overlord", when the Overlord shifted the Balance and received enough strength to return to the physical world, the sphere that represented him simply disappeared, and the invasion and capture of the body took place through a portal or rift (?), emitting a ray of light that allowed the Overlord to return and possessed Garmadon.

As it was shown in the series "Return of the Overlord", when the Balance was shifted, the Garmatron, Garmadon and Dark Matter were not needed by the Overlord in order for him to spread his influence; he needed it so that his powers would increase due to the shift of the Balance towards Darkness and he could return to the physical plane existence. This is also confirmed by Wu's words that the Overlord, after his defeats, gradually increases his strength and regains his physical form.

As for "finally destroyed", it refers to his physical Golden Master form, as well as Garmadon's words in Crystallized that "the power of the Oni is the only thing that can destroy the Overlord": first, it was said in the context of the fact that Destruction, unlike Elemental Forces, is not influenced Vengestone, and secondly, all the words about the destruction of the Overlord refer exclusively to vessels and physical forms.

So, well, he definitely exists somewhere beyond the plane of existence of mortals (aka 17 Realms, cause, well, every character except Overlord is mortal. Even FSM) and the physical world.

Small point but technically the Overlord was a part of Creation, as he was created when the FSM created Ninjago, which needed a force of Darkness to counterbalance the Light.

And as for his creation and the fact that he is technically part of Creation, I will answer the following: The Overlord, firstly, has an abstract nature, unlike Creation and Destruction, and secondly, in Ninjago, the question remains open as to whether the Overlord existed before the creation of Ninjago. So it is likely that it could have been created together with Ninjago, and is also likely that Overlord existed even before the appearance of the First Realm, since it has a conceptually different nature.

'Overlord with right vessel also have 2-C, cause, well, this thing literally corrupts souls and anything else it touches. It even can corrupt Creation, lmao. Overlord and his darkness - it's an abstract force, that "feasts on creation". He is not part of Creation (17 realms also called "Realms of Creation" in March of the Oni), he's something more - directly abstract evil. And he also mentioned, that powers of Garmadon "were a gift from him". It can be a reference to the fact that the Overlord is also responsible for Destruction, as a manifestation of evil. Or else that the Darkness has so strengthened Garmadon that even the original Oni are afraid of him.

Untrue. The Overlord cannot corrupt souls and anything else it touches. He can possess people, and use his crystals and Dark Matter to corrupt people, but he cannot do it through touch. That is false and never supported in series. The Overlord's Darkness can also not corrupt Creation itself. In Crystalized Wu says 'The Overlord doesn't want to destroy you! He wants to corrupt the powers of Creation!', the Elements/Powers of Creation refer to Earth, Ice, Fire and Lightning. Even then, it's not an impressive feat as Creation is a powerful force, sure, but it's still just a power, similar to Destruction. Corrupting Golden Power would be the real impressive feat, but he doesn't do that. Also, that quote about Darkness 'feeding on Creation', that's also not reliable. It comes from the Book of Elemental Powers, which, as stated by Tommy Andreasen, is a book written by a young boy in Ninjago named Jake, and it relies on his understanding of the world (). Not to mention, that book has wrong information in it, such as Nyad being Nya's ancestor, and timeline errors with Jay at the Tournament of Elements. Not a reliable source.

Firstly, some inaccuracies do not make the source non-canonical until the opposite is said. Secondly, I'll leave it here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Elizhaa @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @GyroNutz

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

 

[GyroNutz]

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

First paragraph of the OP seems fine.

I'm not convinced that Overlord is the concept of evil. Someone can easily be the source of evil without existing as its abstract concept. Furthermore, WoG twitter posts are not reliable proof, especially for something of this scale. This also applies to other parts of the OP, can you be more specific about the "additional" abilities that the Overlord would get and which ones rely on twitter posts as proof?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

First paragraph of the OP seems fine.

I'm not convinced that Overlord is the concept of evil. Someone can easily be the source of evil without existing as its abstract concept. Furthermore, WoG twitter posts are not reliable proof, especially for something of this scale. This also applies to other parts of the OP, can you be more specific about the "additional" abilities that the Overlord would get and which ones rely on twitter posts as proof?

In fact, on Twitter is based the paragraph about Abstract Existence (Type 1): the statements that the Overlord is evil itself and the fact that the Overlord is a dark part of the Balance, but it is also spoken out in the series. The words that he is the source of evil in Ninjago and the World are taken from his official canonical descriptions. And yes, the Overlord will get type 1 instead of type 2. That's all.

About beyond-dimensional existence (Type 1) - all based on it's official descriptions and episodes. Speaking in more detail about this, it is worth mentioning that the Overlord, existing as a spirit, exists beyond the human plane of existence, as well as beyond the world. It is worth noting that the human plane of existence is 17 Realms that are inhabited by just the same mortal beings, and the Overlord, as mentioned earlier, is the only immortal. The existence beyond the world mentioned in the second season is essentially the same as what I said earlier, since in Ninjago the word "World", as far as I remember, is mentioned only in this context.

Oh, and yes. On Twitter, it was said that the Overlord does not obey the fate writers from the Cloud Kingdom (they write the fate of the characters)

 

[Zacisawesome101]

In season 2, it was said (as you can see in the scans that I threw off in the post) that the Overlord is trapped outside of this world while the Balance is held in one position. In addition, "imprisonment" on the Dark Island refers exclusively to the place in which the Overlord can wield at least some influence, even being outside the plane of existence of mortals because, as we could see in "The Return of the Overlord", when the Overlord shifted the Balance and received enough strength to return to the physical world, the sphere that represented him simply disappeared, and the invasion and capture of the body took place through a portal or rift (?), emitting a ray of light that allowed the Overlord to return and possessed Garmadon.

As it was shown in the series "Return of the Overlord", when the Balance was shifted, the Garmatron, Garmadon and Dark Matter were not needed by the Overlord in order for him to spread his influence; he needed it so that his powers would increase due to the shift of the Balance towards Darkness and he could return to the physical plane existence. This is also confirmed by Wu's words that the Overlord, after his defeats, gradually increases his strength and regains his physical form.

As for "finally destroyed", it refers to his physical Golden Master form, as well as Garmadon's words in Crystallized that "the power of the Oni is the only thing that can destroy the Overlord": first, it was said in the context of the fact that Destruction, unlike Elemental Forces, is not influenced Vengestone, and secondly, all the words about the destruction of the Overlord refer exclusively to vessels and physical forms.

So, well, he definitely exists somewhere beyond the plane of existence of mortals (aka 17 Realms, cause, well, every character except Overlord is mortal. Even FSM) and the physical world.



And as for his creation and the fact that he is technically part of Creation, I will answer the following: The Overlord, firstly, has an abstract nature, unlike Creation and Destruction, and secondly, in Ninjago, the question remains open as to whether the Overlord existed before the creation of Ninjago. So it is likely that it could have been created together with Ninjago, and is also likely that Overlord existed even before the appearance of the First Realm, since it has a conceptually different nature.


Firstly, some inaccuracies do not make the source non-canonical until the opposite is said. Secondly, I'll leave it here.

Absolutely not.
>In season 2, it was said (as you can see in the scans that I threw off in the post) that the Overlord is trapped outside of this world while the Balance is held in one position.
'Our world' clearly refers only to the Island of Ninjago. I quote, from 'Return of the Overlord'
Overlord: You've helped offset the balance. (Laughs) Because of you, I can now cross over into your world. I'm finally free!
Garmadon: Wait a minute! You stole that from my playbook! Well, you can forget about it. Ninjago is mine!
Overlord: No. It was never going to be yours. It is mine!
They only refer to Ninjago. Garmadon claims that Ninjago is his, the Overlord denies this and says that Ninjago is his. Garmadon even compares it to his playbook, where he uses the Golden Weapon's combined power to leave the Underworld physically, not spiritually like you claim with the Overlord. The idea of 17 different Realms in Ninjago didn't even exist at the time this episode was written, and it was written to be the final season of the show. The Realm of Darkness was never even specified as a different Realm until Season 5. They never mention any place other than Ninjago other than some vague jargon about 'our world', which as the Dark Island was thought to be lost and in Crystalized he only says that the FSM 'Never won. All he did was maintain the Balance by dividing the island in two. He only delayed the inevitable!'
All it ever says is that Overlord needs to offset the balance to cross over into Ninjago. As he still appears in the physical plane, it's clear it only refers to the physical world of Ninjago, not the spiritual plane it resides in.

As it was shown in the series "Return of the Overlord", when the Balance was shifted, the Garmatron, Garmadon and Dark Matter were not needed by the Overlord in order for him to spread his influence; he needed it so that his powers would increase due to the shift of the Balance towards Darkness and he could return to the physical plane existence. This is also confirmed by Wu's words that the Overlord, after his defeats, gradually increases his strength and regains his physical form.

No it's pretty clear he needs it to cross over to Ninjago, with the quote and explanation I provide. It's also pretty clear that he uses it to shift the Balance to be able to cross over to Ninjago. Wu's words are also misconstrued here. He clearly refers to the OV regaining a physical form. Regardless of it's referring to the continent or the Realm, interactions with Garmadon makes it clear he exists on the physical plane.
>Firstly, some inaccuracies do not make the source non-canonical until the opposite is said.
I never said it was non-canonical. I said it was unreliable and it was canonically written by a child.

In response to the book, it also supports my points, as it states that the Overlord used Garmadon as a pawn to 'battle Ninjago world'.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Regardless of it's referring to the continent or the Realm, interactions with Garmadon makes it clear he exists on the physical plane.

All that Overlord did with Garmadon during second season is just guiding and talking with him, no other interactions that makes him exist on the physical plane.
About existing on the spiritual plane that also nope. It appears that Overlord exist in the void, as shown in "A Sinister Shadow". Also here's a museum thing that supports my words about that.

The idea of 17 different Realms in Ninjago didn't even exist at the time this episode was written, and it was written to be the final season of the show. The Realm of Darkness was never even specified as a different Realm until Season 5.

And concept of Realms already existed even during first four episodes, as it shown that Underworld wasn't a place in Ninjago and it needs the power of dragons or vehicles of Skeletons to cross to it.

Garmadon even compares it to his playbook, where he uses the Golden Weapon's combined power to leave the Underworld physically, not spiritually like you claim with the Overlord.

What. Firstly, the Underworld is a different realm => different Space-Time continuum (cause it needs space-time break/portal to trevel between them), secondly, Garm completely left the Underworld and trevelled to the Realm of Darkness.

 

[Zacisawesome101]

All that Overlord did with Garmadon during second season is just guiding and talking with him, no other interactions that makes him exist on the physical plane.
About existing on the spiritual plane that also nope. It appears that Overlord exist in the void, as shown in "A Sinister Shadow". Also here's a museum thing that supports my words about that.


And concept of Realms already existed even during first four episodes, as it shown that Underworld wasn't a place in Ninjago and it needs the power of dragons or vehicles of Skeletons to cross to it.


What. Firstly, the Underworld is a different realm => different Space-Time continuum (cause it needs space-time break/portal to trevel between them), secondly, Garm completely left the Underworld and trevelled to the Realm of Darkness.

Not at all.
>About existing on the spiritual plane that also nope. It appears that Overlord exist in the void, as shown in "A Sinister Shadow". Also here's a museum thing that supports my words about that.
A Sinister Shadow is very vague and does not support any sort of conclusion. All the Overlord says is 'You are with me'. It could be a separate spatial dimension, it could be the Overlord and Harumi's spirit in that crystal. There is no way to tell due to its vagueness.
>All that Overlord did with Garmadon during second season is just guiding and talking with him, no other interactions that makes him exist on the physical plane.
Not what I meant. I meant that Garmadon saying the Overlord stole that from 'his playbook' supports that the Overlord was simply stuck on the Dark Island and manipulated Garmadon into allowing him to return, much like how Garmadon manipulated Samukai into allowing him to return. This is all a physical process, which brings me to:

>And concept of Realms already existed even during first four episodes, as it shown that Underworld wasn't a place in Ninjago and it needs the power of dragons or vehicles of Skeletons to cross to it.
The concept of Realms was not in the pilots. The Underworld was said to be a different world, true, but that does not mean the idea of 16 interconnected worlds + the Departed Realm was fully developed. The concept of Realms was not brought up until Season 5. Ninjago was originally meant to end in Season 2. The concept of Realms did not exist at that time, much how Lloyd did not exist by the pilots.

>What. Firstly, the Underworld is a different realm => different Space-Time continuum (cause it needs space-time break/portal to trevel between them), secondly, Garm completely left the Underworld and trevelled to the Realm of Darkness.
You misunderstand me. Garmadon leaving the Underworld through a portal between space and time does not mean he existed beyond or outside of the mortal/physical world and needed the portal to return to the physical world, as you claim with the Overlord. Your initial claim was that the Overlord existed outside the mortal realm and wanted to add beyond-dimensional existence. My claim is that that is false and that is supported in the show by context, Garmadon, and the BTS of the show at the time.

 

[Zacisawesome101]

Also can we remove 2-C for the FSM and other god-tiers of Ninjago? The FSM did not create a universe, as shown in show and by the creator, Clouse's Dark Island Trilogy took time and was a result of a chain reaction caused by corrupting the Temple of Light with Dark Matter and not out of his own power, and the Overlord/Oni have not corrupted/destroyed/threatened all of the Realms, as I have explained in previous replies.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

>About existing on the spiritual plane that also nope. It appears that Overlord exist in the void, as shown in "A Sinister Shadow". Also here's a museum thing that supports my words about that.
A Sinister Shadow is very vague and does not support any sort of conclusion. All the Overlord says is 'You are with me'. It could be a separate spatial dimension, it could be the Overlord and Harumi's spirit in that crystal. There is no way to tell due to its vagueness.

I'm talking about the next: it is said in 2017 museum thing that Overlord exist somewhere beyond human plane of existence. Then, we have "A Sinister Shadow". In that episode Overlord had no physical form, and therefore was locked out of the world (also, as mentioned in the second season. This spirit forms from 2 and 15 seasons the same: that in the second season he could not return to the physical world himself, which is why he needed a shift in Balance towards Darkness, and in 15 season: he needed an external force in the form of Golden Weapons to create a physical form. Thus, his spirit state in the second season and the fifteenth are the same). Next, we remember that the Overlord exists somewhere BEYOND the plane of human existence and we see what was shown in "A Sinister Shadow". Thus, we can confidently assert that this is the very "place" that is beyond the plane of human existence and beyond the world.

You misunderstand me. Garmadon leaving the Underworld through a portal between space and time does not mean he existed beyond or outside of the mortal/physical world and needed the portal to return to the physical world, as you claim with the Overlord. Your initial claim was that the Overlord existed outside the mortal realm and wanted to add beyond-dimensional existence. My claim is that that is false and that is supported in the show by context, Garmadon, and the BTS of the show at the time.

See above.

 

[CrackNet]

Also can we remove 2-C for the FSM and other god-tiers of Ninjago? The FSM did not create a universe, as shown in show and by the creator, Clouse's Dark Island Trilogy took time and was a result of a chain reaction caused by corrupting the Temple of Light with Dark Matter and not out of his own power, and the Overlord/Oni have not corrupted/destroyed/threatened all of the Realms, as I have explained in previous replies.

common Zac L

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz @Yobo_Blue

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[AllForOne]

Its insane how badly this verse needs revision. It retcons itself every season.

Zac is correct about the FSM only creating the island of Ninjago. However, it needs to be said that until season 14 the FSM was implied to be universal+, but this was retconned in order for the plot of Seabound to make sense.

I don't agree with his interpretation of the Overlord 'crossing into your world' and it only talking about the islands. He couldn't possess Garmadon until the balance was offset, and they were already on the Dark Island at the time. I don't see why he wouldn't have possessed Garmadon the moment he arrived on the Dark Island if, as Zac claims, both islands represent their own 'worlds.' Its clear the Overlord is crossing into the physical world.

He is also directly stated in Crystalized to be the embodiment of evil. This is backed up by TA twitter statements.

tldr; this verse is a mess.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I don't agree with his interpretation of the Overlord 'crossing into your world' and it only talking about the islands. He couldn't possess Garmadon until the balance was offset, and they were already on the Dark Island at the time. I don't see why he wouldn't have possessed Garmadon the moment he arrived on the Dark Island if, as Zac claims, both islands represent their own 'worlds.' Its clear the Overlord is crossing into the physical world.

In Ninjago, the Overlord is the only character that exists outside not only the physical world (completely, and not like the ghosts from the fifth season) but beyond the human plane of existence (which is 17 Realms, since we can observe that every Realm, one way or another, inhabited by humans\mortals). By the way, it is the existence outside the physical world and the human plane of existence that makes the Overlord a fully immortal character from the point of view of Ninjago, since FSM, being the equivalent of an Overlord in its powers, is not immortal, as stated by LEGO ("Overlord is the only immortal character in the series"), since he is a derivative of mortals, even in spite of his Godly powers. I mean, being the part of the Balance makes Overlord to have powers to return into human plane of existence every time after defeats, that's true, but his immortality more difficult thing then just "Part of the Balance = Immortal".

It is also claimed that everything that Spinjitzu - is Light, while the Overlord is Darkness. If I understand this statement correctly from the Book of Elemental Powers (see the scans from the book above), then we can state that the Overlord, in principle, opposes not only the Golden Power, but also Creation and Destruction (which also makes sense, since the screenwriters stated that the Overlord/Darkness, unlike Creation and Destruction, has a more abstract nature).

 

[Antvasima]

@Yobo_Blue @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Elizhaa @Sans2345 @TheGreatMaster12 @GyroNutz

We still reallyneed your help here.

 

[AllForOne]

In Ninjago, the Overlord is the only character that exists outside not only the physical world (completely, and not like the ghosts from the fifth season) but beyond the human plane of existence (which is 17 Realms, since we can observe that every Realm, one way or another, inhabited by humans\mortals). By the way, it is the existence outside the physical world and the human plane of existence that makes the Overlord a fully immortal character from the point of view of Ninjago, since FSM, being the equivalent of an Overlord in its powers, is not immortal, as stated by LEGO ("Overlord is the only immortal character in the series"), since he is a derivative of mortals, even in spite of his Godly powers. I mean, being the part of the Balance makes Overlord to have powers to return into human plane of existence every time after defeats, that's true, but his immortality more difficult thing then just "Part of the Balance = Immortal".

It is also claimed that everything that Spinjitzu - is Light, while the Overlord is Darkness. If I understand this statement correctly from the Book of Elemental Powers (see the scans from the book above), then we can state that the Overlord, in principle, opposes not only the Golden Power, but also Creation and Destruction (which also makes sense, since the screenwriters stated that the Overlord/Darkness, unlike Creation and Destruction, has a more abstract nature).

We don't exactly have confirmation on him existing 'beyond the 17 realms'. We DO see his spirit briefly in 'another dimension' (heh) when he resurrects Harumi, but that scene is very vague and we can't just assume that about it without supporting context like statements or wog from TA.

I do agree that he has status as an abstract entity. Although he seems to be bound only to the realm of Ninjago He hasn't appeared in any other realm before if I recall correctly.

This verse needs a massive overhaul. It is very complex after having 15 seasons. The writers regularly retcon the lore too.

 

[Antvasima]

You are probably correct, but somebody who understands our tiering system well needs to be involved.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

We don't exactly have confirmation on him existing 'beyond the 17 realms'. We DO see his spirit briefly in 'another dimension' (heh) when he resurrects Harumi, but that scene is very vague and we can't just assume that about it without supporting context like statements or wog from TA.

I do agree that he has status as an abstract entity. Although he seems to be bound only to the realm of Ninjago He hasn't appeared in any other realm before if I recall correctly.

This verse needs a massive overhaul. It is very complex after having 15 seasons. The writers regularly retcon the lore too.

well, anyway he exist outside mortal plane of existence and physical world, so 15 season's void doesn't really matter in that case. However, we exactly DO know that void from 'A Sinister Shadow' is beyond mortal plane of existence and physical world completely

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here more specifically?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

So what should we do here more specifically?

Given that most tend to believe that the Overlord is an abstraction of evil and that he exists outside the physical world and the plane of existence of mortals, then we should keep his abilities in the spirit form.

However, we have no direct evidence that his strength level is 2-C. Yes, we know that Overlord claimed to destroy the Balance, but we don't know what exactly he meant by this statement and, besides, he was defeated at the end of season 15, which suggests that the Balance still exists.

To sum up, I think we should reconsider his tier (6-A mb), and keep the powers and abilities of his spirit form intact after the last change.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

And we also need to review the godly level of the FSM, but @Yobo_Blue is already doing this. That sad 'cause it was at least Low 2-C, but guys retcon it in Seabound. Brruuuh.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not know almost anything about Ninjago, but if you want tier changes, you need to show accepted calculation blogs or very self-evident other evidence.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Well, I do not know almost anything about Ninjago, but if you want tier changes, you need to show accepted calculation blogs or very self-evident other evidence.

I don't want tier changes, they don't really bother me at all, to be honest. But some people in this thread said that the Overlord does not have 2-C, others said the opposite. Personally, I think that in principle we cannot say anything about the Overlord's and FSM tier, since initially the Overlord had the idea that he, with his high-level immortality abilities and greater existence, opposes the Ninjago's god, FSM, and so it was until season 14, in which they abruptly turned a blind eye to all previous statements about the FSM powers, but at the same time they did not change the Overlord. It's all too confusing.

It's like Overlord claims that he can destroy the Balance, which is a force for the entire LEGO Ninjago universe, but at the same time, he does not show anything worth except his high-level abilities for immortality and high-level existence. Then, in 8 season was said that FSM created a REALM. But despite that in 14 season they say that FSM DIDN'T created a realm, but he created a ISLAND. I hate retcon like this.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Well, all right. I think this thread can be closed, because if suddenly there are any questions about tier or abilities, then people will start a new thread about this. Thank you all!

@Antvasima can you close this pls?

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't it better to wait for help from the following members first?

@Yobo_Blue @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Elizhaa @Sans2345 @TheGreatMaster12 @GyroNutz

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Isn't it better to wait for help from the following members first?

@Yobo_Blue @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Elizhaa @Sans2345 @TheGreatMaster12 @GyroNutz

we've been waiting for them for a month. I doubt they will answer.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we cannot initiate major revisions based solely on the intentions of very new and inexperienced members. My apologies.

However, if you write a single sufficiently thorough but easy to understand explanation post regarding everything that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ask some of our thread moderators for evaluation help afterwards.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Well, we cannot initiate major revisions based solely on the intentions of very new and inexperienced members. My apologies.

However, if you write a single sufficiently thorough but easy to understand explanation post regarding everything that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ask some of our thread moderators for evaluation help afterwards.

I think we can left the Overlord's tier for the better times. It's too complicated and unclear, so I need a lot of time to collect knowledges about it and sort them.
I mean, let's just keep the Overlord's page in current state.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Are there any other revisions that should be made based on this thread?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Okay.

Are there any other revisions that should be made based on this thread?

No.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.