So Maelys, and everyone who scales to him, should be downgraded to 9-C.
... that sounds apsolutely terrible. It'd snap its leg in half if it's 9-C...
Well, I'll do a wee bit of research and see if we can't scale Horse's durability at least somewhat to their kicks or if the hoof structure does something.
I have seen horses one-shot other ones with their kicks.
Can I get a video of that? Just for posterity
Maybe these feats ?
Do they all have reasons to scale to Gregor?
Rhaegar Targaryen too, since he scales to Robert.
I saw that the feats are no longer 9-B, revisions were made on it I think.
Almost every character in the verse has justification for scales to 9-C, I'll quote them in the ASOIAF/GOT general discussion to see what you think.
Seems fine, don’t see why he’d downscale though.
That should just be Arthur w/ Dawn > Barristan = Arthur > Jaime. Being equal in a fight with regular weapons means Barristan and Arthur would have to be physically comparable.
Why would he scale above Arthur?
I don’t see how this would make her scale to Arthur.
Scaling them above literally every other human fighter without actually being stated to be the strongest or being compared to them is very ehhhhhhhhh
And Prime Barristan because Barristan = Arthur.
This stuff sounds more like Athlete level than Street level.
Because Jaime said Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower (at his prime) was stronger than him, not Barristan Selmy. Jaime knew Barristan when he was only 44, and trained with him, just like he did with Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, and talked with them, so he knows what he's talking about.
Barristan downscale from Arthur, for the reason mentioned above.
He scale above Arthur physically for obvious reason. Arthur's strength has never been fabled, compared to Robert. Nobody ever said Arthur was strong as a bull or anything like that. And Robert can fight one-handed with a heavier warhammer than any greatsword. Even Jaime said "Robert was stronger than me, to be sure", for Arthur he just said he was stronger than him, that's all.
Same reason as for Robert, we should even say "likely above Arthur"
Jaime said the Mountain's strength was inhuman, even compared to that of the Hound, Greatjon Umber and the Strongboar of Crakehall. In size and musculature, no one is as monstrous as him in Westeros, many characters have said so.
In skill, not in strength.
If Ned is Street level, Qhorin Halfhand and Mance Rayder are easily too. GRRM said twice that Ned was not a great fighter, he was more of a ruler and general than a warrior, while Qhorin Halfhand was a living legend of the Night's Watch, one of the best warriors in Westeros, and Mance Rayder can easily fight with a greatsword, just like Arthur Dayne (apart from some monsters like Greatjon, Robert, Gregor Clegane, who can do this one-handed, Arthur and Mance are the only fighters known to can do that. Edit: and Randyll Tarly, with a Valyrian steel greatsword)
That’s probably because Barristan was, y’know, old when Jaime made that statement. There’s no logical reason for him to talk about a version Barristan that doesn’t exist anymore, especially when Barristan is still alive.
Except the statement isn’t Arthur >= Barristan, it’s simply Arthur = Barristan.
”For obvious reasons” isn’t an argument.
Not having the same statements as Robert =/= Robert being stronger than him.
Dude, what? Jaime saying Robert is surely stronger than him means just that, Robert is stronger than him. It doesn’t mean he’s stronger than the other people Jaime mentioned.
No, we shouldn’t, because there’s no reason for Robert to be stronger and there’s no reason for Brienne to be stronger.
Okay, if characters have actually stated that, then it works for Gregor. I still see no reason for the Greatjon to scale above all other humans.
That’s not what Martin said.
I have no problems with Ned just being Athlete level so…
Dude, that’s not how scaling works. Being able to use a greatsword =/= being equal to other characters that can also use greatswords.
Jaime said that Gerold Hightower was stronger than him in his heyday, yet he didn't know Gerold Hightower during those times. If Prime Barristan was stronger than Jaime, he would have mentioned it like with Gerold Hightower, because there was no reason not to.
But Arthur is still stronger physically than Barristan, for the reasons mentioned above.
Yes, it is.
For Robert yes, there are reasons, for Brienne too. Both are extremely muscular and physically strong, freakish strong as some characters say, which has never been the case for Arthur Dayne so far. He was very strong yes, but certainly not like Robert Baratheon, Lyle Crakehall, Greatjon Umber, Brienne of Tarth and the Clegane brothers.
Yes:
Possibly scale above all other warriors, It's the Mountain but a less tall and strong. Just like Gregor Clegane, Jon Umber can easily fight one-handed with a greatsword, and he is the same height as Hodor but he is twice as wide as him.
It's just downscaling, because we already know that Arthur Dayne is superior to Barristan Selmy in strength. Characters who can equalize or defeat opponents stronger than them, it's common in ASOIAF and fiction in general, they don't have to have the same strength.
Except that Ned is Street level via his fight against Arthur. At least, it all depends on the downscaling, if he still ranks Ned at Street level or downgrades him to Athlete level.
I didn't mean to say that Mance Rayder was equal to Arthur Dayne exactly in terms of physical strength, but that Mance's strength shouldn't be far from Arthur's, as they are physically strong enough to fight with a greatsword. .
Y’know even if Barristan did downscale from Arthur, that would still put him above Jaime. Jaime is objectively inferior to Arthur, but Barristan can fight on par with Arthur.
He’s not, because that’s not what’s stated.
No, it’s objectively not.
Arthur not being compared to Robert doesn’t mean Robert is stronger than him, that’s not how scaling works.
Again, not sharing the same statements does not mean they get to directly scale above him. You asserting that he’s certainly not as strong as them doesn’t make it true.
None of this proves that he should scale above all other warriors, even as a possibly. You would need to provide an actual statement saying such.
Arthur is only vaguely above baseline Street level, so Ned could very well downscale to Athlete level+.
That’s not how it works. Two characters being able to use greatswords doesn’t mean they’re anywhere near each other in strength, that’s nonsensical.
What? There's no reason to objectively say that Prime Barristan is superior to Jaime in strength, none. Already because he didn't mention it, compared to Arthur Dayne and Prime Gerold Hightower, and there was no reason not to mention it if that was indeed the case.
Without being disrespectful, it's silly. To say that Robert Baratheon is not physically stronger than Arthur Dayne is like saying that Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is not physically stronger than Connor McGregor. Robert has statements and feats for his incredible strength, not Arthur Dayne, because he has never been known to have freakish strength. It's the same for Brienne Tarth and Jon Umber compared to others
It's not nonsensical, it's completely logical. To fight with a greatsword you have to have great strength, it's not something all fighters in Westeros can do, but Mance Rayder and Arthur Dayne are not as strong as the Clegane brothers or Robert Baratheon, they are necessarily close in strength to each other. But anyway it looks more like a Lifting strength feat than Striking strength when I think about it.
It depends on the greatsword entirely, for instance if it's very thick and as such heavy it is a strength weapon, using it as something to break the opponent's defense and keep them away from you is much more valuable in all runs then just trying to use it as you would a longsword. However, if it's in that sweet spot of being not too thick and not too thin, it is a beast which can play both sides of the spectrum, you can both break things like spears and pikes and engage in true close quarters depending on the situation, but even then, unless the Smith just didn't bother to take any material out of the blade at all and it's a tendon-ripping monster of a 10-15 pound sword, it's only going to be 5-7 pounds for even a Scottish Claymore.
It’s almost like that’s why I never suggested mentioning that on Barristan’s profile.
Actually, in a swordfight, you have to be physically comparable to your opponent to match them, otherwise you’d just get disarmed immediately.
Yes, that’s true, but they don’t negate the fact that you have to be somewhat comparable to your opponent to match them.
I would like to see evidence of that being how Barristan beat Maelys.
Without being disrespectful, that’s not an argument.
This is also not an argument.
Cool, doesn’t mean he scales above Arthur. Being a strength-based fighter doesn’t mean you’re stronger than everyone else who’s not. To give an example from the TV series, Arya is an assassin and not a strength based fighter, yet she could still parry and block blows from Brienne.
Yes, it is lifting strength, and it doesn’t mean Mance and Arthur are comparable in that either. It just means they can both fight with greatswords, period. You’re not going to list them as comparable for that.
Jaime fought against Brienne when he was less strong than her, he said it himself. It is the same thing for all the other examples of this kind that I could give in ASOIAF, As you told me, it's downscaling. This is therefore the case for Barristan Selmy vs Arthur Dayne, based on Jaime's statement which has been quoted several times.
It's just said that Barristan Selmy defeated Maelys Blackfyre in single combat, and he surely did it with speed and skill, the same way Jaime can beat Brienne when she's stronger than him, because Barristan does not match Maelys Blackfyre in physical strength.
Yes, it is, because thanks to Björnsson's build and musculature, Connor McGregor cannot match him in physical strength. And it's exactly the same for Arthur Dayne compared to Robert Baratheon, Brienne Tarth and Jon Umber, it's downscaling at best in this case. And you keep saying that it's not an argument without explaining why.
Because downscaling. Whether it's in the series or the books, Arya doesn't have the same physical strength as Brienne, because nothing says so and because Brienne is far more muscular and huge than she is.
Comparable in lifting strength, yes
