Pokemon Energy Manipulation

[Armorchompy]

The plates is the essence of all powers in the Cosmology.

Allowing someone to gain powers of something =/= being the source of every single instance of that power.

It's heavily implied these powers are themselves the cells within Pokémon.

Dude, Magikarp isn't even a dragon type nor does he evolve into one. Do you realize this literally contradicts your claim? It doesn't even naturally learn any dragon-type moves. Not to mention, you don't draw power from your cells.

Also, this statement was made over a decade before Arceus' invention so I highly doubt it's meant to tie back into him, it's just talking about Magikarp being able to evolve into Gyarados, who is a dragon, but not a Dragon type.

It's you're word against canon

It's my more conservative interpretation of canon against your incredibly subjective interpretation of canon.

 

[Arceus0x]

It's you're word against canon

your*

 

[Armorchompy]

irrelevant, HP is tied to defense in some ways as it literally is the thing that prevents you from losing it and belly is a PMD mechanics and we don't use PMD mechanics due to the simple fact that there are things such as linked moves and throwable weapons in there.

???? How does being able to throw a rock make a mechanic less worthwhile lmao?

Also, literally wrong about HP given moves like Dragon Rage exist, not to mention special moves.

you countered one thing but ignored the other. I still see no explanation to why would it be stamina that drains when hyper beam and other moves are being used and not energy. You need to rest for a bit to recharge energy, that is logical. Doesn't counter the fact that pokemon need energy to attack here.

It literally says it leaves them tired in the first scan, that is blatantly stamina. You made a claim that they wouldn't get tired by doing it, that the reason they need to recharge is because they're missing energy, which that directly disproves.

because it isn't inherently harder as otherwise we'd actually see it being harder. Pokemon casually use those attacks and need no rest or anything, meanwhile attacks such as blast burn and hydro canon are considered the ultimate pokemon moves for that specific type.

Righto, cause they're tiring.

 

[Arceus0x]

what matters to me here at this point is why the heck are we assuming that weather creation moves that never drain anyone's power to a significant extent despite using it up are considered to require more energy than attacks that force you to rest after its usage and ones considered the ultimate moves of that typing

 

[Armorchompy]

what matters to me here at this point is why the heck are we assuming that weather creation moves that never drain anyone's power to a significant extent despite using it up are considered to require more energy than attacks that force you to rest after its usage and ones considered the ultimate moves of that typing

Because you're staking a significant verse upgrade on them not doing so and I see zero proof of this. Maybe energy conversion for them is just way more efficient than for most attacks. Considering some Pokémon are capable of doing it passively without any usage of PP I don't think this is so unlikely.

Also, this statement was made over a decade before Arceus' invention so I highly doubt it's meant to tie back into him, it's just talking about Magikarp being able to evolve into Gyarados, who is a dragon, but not a Dragon type.

Pre-emptively since I know this might cause people to disagree, Gyarados is in the Dragon egg type and according to PLA: "I suspect this Pokémon to be the true identity of a dragon written of in ancient texts, which claimed that it razed an entire village with white-hot beams from its maw."

 

[Sniper670]

Allowing someone to gain powers of something =/= being the source of every single instance of that power.

It is the source as told on the plates. It's the power of the plates that are shared amongst Pokémon.

Dude, Magikarp isn't even a dragon type nor does he evolve into one. Do you realize this literally contradicts your claim? It doesn't even naturally learn any dragon-type moves. Not to mention, you don't draw power from your cells.

Again. Pointing to the fact that the powers are the actual cells of these Pokémon.

The implications here is scientists found Dragon Cells in Magikarp, which baffled them

Key here is Dragon Cells.

Also, this statement was made over a decade before Arceus' invention so I highly doubt it's meant to tie back into him, it's just talking about Magikarp being able to evolve into Gyarados, who is a dragon, but not a Dragon type.

Gyarados existed at the same time as Magikarp. So I say your argument holds no water

It's my more conservative interpretation of canon against your incredibly subjective interpretation of canon.

It's your opinion over what is Canon

 

[Arceus0x]

???? How does being able to throw a rock make a mechanic less worthwhile lmao?

i like how you ignore literally everything but the rock, a rock that...can hurt ghosts

Also, literally wrong about HP given moves like Dragon Rage exist, not to mention special moves.

what are you even on about?

It literally says it leaves them tired in the first scan, that is blatantly stamina. You made a claim that they wouldn't get tired by doing it, that the reason they need to recharge is because they're missing energy, which that directly disproves.

alright then explain how tf stamina is gonna create a hyper beam? And if using a beam takes more 'stamina' than creating giant weather conditions then doesn't that literally mean that attacks as such are clearly >> weather manip?

Righto, cause they're tiring.

tf kind of argument is that?

 

[Arceus0x]

Because you're staking a significant verse upgrade on them not doing so and I see zero proof of this. Maybe energy conversion for them is just way more efficient than for most attacks. Considering some Pokémon are capable of doing it passively without any usage of PP I don't think this is so unlikely.

that is an assumption that has no weight compared to the fact that weather moves have more PP compared to hyper beam and others and the fact that Hyper beam tires pokemon out and weather moves don't. I am fighting for things that have been directly shown to us, you are twisting those facts to suit your narrative that for some reason weather moves are their own separate thing despite the fact that shiz like weather ball is literally a pokemon creating an energy ball and shooting it into the sky to summon rain clouds.

 

[Armorchompy]

It is the source as told on the plates. It's the power of the plates that are shared amongst Pokémon.

Being imbued with something's essence =/= being its source. Unless you're saying Miracle Seed is the source of all life in the Pokémon universe: "An item to be held by a Pokémon. A seed imbued with life that boosts the power of Grass-type moves."

Again. Pointing to the fact that the powers are the actual cells of these Pokémon.

The implications here is scientists found Dragon Cells in Magikarp, which baffled them

Key here is Dragon Cells.

And why would a non-dragon type have those, if they're tied to typings?

Gyarados existed at the same time as Magikarp. So I say your argument holds no water

Right, keep saying it I'm sure someone will believe it, for whatever reason people in early Pokèmon games don't realize Magikarp evolves into Gyarados.

i like how you ignore literally everything but the rock, a rock that...can hurt ghosts

Rock Throw (Gen 4): "The user picks up and throws a small rock at the foe to attack."

And before you hit me with plate bullshit, Pokémon are capable of generally hurting ghosts with anything that isn't Normal, so I dunno why this is so shocking to you. At worst it's a feat, definitely not enough to invalidate a whole series.

what are you even on about?

Those moves inflict damage to HP without passing by defense, I thought that was obvious.

alright then explain how tf stamina is gonna create a hyper beam?

I dunno, cause the verse clearly works that way? Skepticism isn't getting you anywhere when there's plain statements of it.

Performing energy attacks being tiring is something that is ubiquitous in fiction anyway, I'm not sure why you expect hard logic of ******' Pokémon.

And if using a beam takes more 'stamina' than creating giant weather conditions then doesn't that literally mean that attacks as such are clearly >> weather manip?

No, maybe the Pokémon are just worse at doing it. You're comparing two vaguely related things and I will not accept it, we have barely any knowledge on the workings of their mechanics and that is not stable grounds for an upgrade.

that is an assumption that has no weight compared to the fact that weather moves have more PP compared to hyper beam and others and the fact that Hyper beam tires pokemon out and weather moves don't.

Which is not enough evidence to assume they're comparable given that I am fighting against the concept of this alleged "energy" being anything but stamina.

I am fighting for things that have been directly shown to us, you are twisting those facts to suit your narrative that for some reason weather moves are their own separate thing despite the fact that shiz like weather ball is literally a pokemon creating an energy ball and shooting it into the sky to summon rain clouds.

Then just use that, dude, I don't give a shit whatever number you put on the profiles I'm just not gonna accept a vague ass comparison of mechanics from different unrelated sources as iron-solid canon.

 

[Sniper670]

Being imbued with something's essence =/= being its source.

The Powers of plates are shared amongst all Pokémon

Unless you're saying Miracle Seed is the source of all life in the Pokémon universe: "An item to be held by a Pokémon. A seed imbued with life that boosts the power of Grass-type moves."

Your question has been answered above

And why would a non-dragon type have those, if they're tied to typings?

Which is why Scientists were baffled?

They were surprised to find those on Magikarp. It's not a dragon type after all

Right, keep saying it I'm sure someone will believe it, for whatever reason people in early Pokèmon games don't realize Magikarp evolves into Gyarados.

Ehh.... But the developers knew. Which is what is relevant to this discussion

 

[Arceus0x]

Rock Throw (Gen 4): "The user picks up and throws a small rock at the foe to attack."

the move in that case is rock type. Throwing rocks or silver spikes which have no typing ect can for some magnificent reason still hurt pokemon such as shedinja which is supposed to be immune to anything that isn't super effective against it.

Those moves inflict damage to HP without passing by defense, I thought that was obvious.

then its damage manipulation, case closed.

I dunno, cause the verse clearly works that way? Skepticism isn't getting you anywhere when there's plain statements of it.

Performing energy attacks being tiring is something that is ubiquitous in fiction anyway, I'm not sure why you expect hard logic of ******' Pokémon.

then why tf is shooting an energy ball into the sky and creating rain unscalable when hyper beam tires them out but the energy ball doesn't?

No, maybe the Pokémon are just worse at doing it. You're comparing two vaguely related things and I will not accept it.

maybe maybe maybe, how about you give me actual facts instead of game theories? You're not proving your points properly and twisting the narrative to make your points more sensible and I won't accept that either.

Which is not enough evidence to assume they're comparable given that I am fighting against the concept of this alleged "energy" being anything but stamina.

even if it isn't energy but stamina, one move drains that 'stamina' and the other doesn't. If i punch and it makes me tired but i kick and it doesn't it means that i need more energy for the punch

 

[KatBoi69]

Pokemon having energy manipulation in limited ways is totally understandable. For example, Solar Beam is explicitly energy manipulation. I don't think that, in anyway, justifies the second part of your argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

the move in that case is rock type. Throwing rocks or silver spikes which have no typing ect can for some magnificent reason still hurt pokemon such as shedinja which is supposed to be immune to anything that isn't super effective against it.

Ok, gameplay mechanics, no need to invalidate a whole ass series, surely I don't need to tell you mainline gameplay isn't wholly accurate to "lore" either.

then its damage manipulation, case closed.

Ok? Your point said defense and HP were tied, I proved they aren't always, now what.

maybe maybe maybe, how about you give me actual facts instead of game theories? You're not proving your points properly and twisting the narrative to make your points more sensible and I won't accept that either.

Listen, I'm feeling very sick, I asked people not to bother me on my wall, yet you came up there and asked me to comment and like a good boy here I came anyway because of some clearly misguided sense of duty and just so happened to not blindly agree with your proposal, I would very kindly ask you to shut up about my "narrative", I don't give a shit about this verse on the wiki, I haven't played a Pokémon game for half a decade, I don't have any kind of narrative, I just disagree.

I am not saying my assumptions are right, I am saying that your assumptions cannot be proven to be right either and as such an upgrade cannot be put in place.

even if it isn't energy but stamina, one move drains that 'stamina' and the other doesn't. If i punch and it makes me tired but i kick and it doesn't it means that i need more energy for the punch

No, maybe punching is just a more tiring motion for you. Try walking or lightly jogging for 2 minutes and then try doing pushups for two minutes, former is outputting more kinetic energy, latter's more tiring.

The Powers of plates are shared amongst all Pokémon

I would very strongly appreciate if you stopped cropping screenshots so much and gave sources for them.

At best, this is power bestowal anyways. I see no evidence of actually drawing energy.

Which is why Scientists were baffled?

Why would they specifically find dragon-type ones and not any other kind? Magikarp isn't even capable of using dragon type moves naturally. I don't see why those would be too prominent, assuming they're related to moves (which they aren't)

They were surprised to find those on Magikarp. It's not a dragon type after all

But it's in the Dragon egg type. It's a dragon under a biological sense, and cells reflect biology.

Ehh.... But the developers knew. Which is what is relevant to this discussion

No, what the scientists knew is relevant to the discussion since this is written from the scientists' POV.

 

[Arceus0x]

Listen, I'm feeling very sick, I asked people not to bother me on my wall, yet you came up there and asked me to comment and like a good boy here I came anyway because of some clearly misguided sense of duty and just so happened to not blindly agree with your proposal, I would very kindly ask you to shut up about my "narrative", I don't give a shit about this verse on the wiki, I haven't played a Pokémon game for half a decade, I don't have any kind of narrative, I just disagree.

Sorry i didn't see that as it was already out of sight due to Pikaman's comment and the section where you write your own comment. Please bluntly refuse next time you don't want to participate in something.

Ok, gameplay mechanics, no need to invalidate a whole ass series, surely I don't need to tell you mainline gameplay isn't wholly accurate to "lore" either.

Tbf PMD's lore in general is baloney and contradictory in countless ways with only a few feats being consistent. Otherwise we have Xerneas' lore which contradicts reality, we have Dialga being tied to a bunch of gears which don't exist outside of the PMD series and contradict his whole function and for some reason don't apply to Palkia and more. There are a few things that are consistent at best.

Ok? Your point said defense and HP were tied, I proved they aren't always, now what.

ok i didn't quite get what you meant at first

 

[Armorchompy]

Sorry i didn't see that as it was already out of sight due to Pikaman's comment and the section where you write your own comment. Please bluntly refuse next time you don't want to participate in something.

I don't mind doing thread mod stuff, it's not like I'll get better by staring at a wall, but I'd just rather not be accused of "pushing a narrative" when I haven't touched a Pokémon game since USUM.

Tbf PMD's lore in general is baloney and contradictory in countless ways with only a few feats being consistent. Otherwise we have Xerneas' lore which contradicts reality, we have Dialga being tied to a bunch of gears which don't exist outside of the PMD series and contradict his whole function and for some reason don't apply to Palkia and more. There are a few things that are consistent at best.

I understand this isn't the place for this kind of argument, but Pokémon is as a whole greatly inconsistent, I understand we consider almost everything canonical but there's a bunch of blatant contradictions between anime and games without even getting into the manga which are even more wildly inconsistent both tonally and in portrayal, I really wouldn't consider PMD too special in that regard.

 

[Sniper670]

I would very strongly appreciate if you stopped cropping screenshots so much and gave sources for them.

At best, this is power bestowal anyways. I see no evidence of actually drawing energy.

I've provided the evidence. It's power bestowal yes. The power is linked to the plates, also yes

So no plates=No powers.
New plate=new powers

And it's not like Arceus comes down from heaven to hand it out. It's conceptual, of which I'll be making a crt soon

Why would they specifically find dragon-type ones and not any other kind? Magikarp isn't even capable of using dragon type moves naturally. I don't see why those would be too prominent, assuming they're related to moves (which they aren't)

Again. It was in anticipation of his Evolution. Which coincidentally looks like a dragon and has several dragon type moves.

But it's in the Dragon egg type. It's a dragon under a biological sense, and cells reflect biology.

What does that prove? Yes, it had dragon cells. Which can be traced back to Arceus having given them such powers

No, what the scientists knew is relevant to the discussion since this is written from the scientists' POV.

That's what I'm saying

 

[Armorchompy]

I've provided the evidence. It's power bestowal yes. The power is linked to the plates, also yes

So no plates=No powers.
New plate=new powers

And it's not like Arceus comes down from heaven to hand it out. It's conceptual, of which I'll be making a crt soon

... And there's still no evidence of power being taken from them. Like this is cool and all it's just not more than tangentially related to the topic at hand.

Again. It was in anticipation of his Evolution. Which coincidentally looks like a dragon and has several dragon type moves.

And is in the dragon egg type. But is not a Dragon type, so why would Dragon-type cells be prominent? Logical assumption is this is running on a different meaning of "dragon", which the series provides.

What does that prove? Yes, it had dragon cells. Which can be traced back to Arceus having given them such powers

Or it can be traced back to other, different things with far less assumptions.

That's what I'm saying

... No, that's the opposite?

 

[Arceus0x]

I understand this isn't the place for this kind of argument, but Pokémon is as a whole greatly inconsistent, I understand we consider almost everything canonical but there's a bunch of blatant contradictions between anime and games without even getting into the manga which are even more wildly inconsistent both tonally and in portrayal, I really wouldn't consider PMD too special in that regard.

PMD is just completely disconnected from game canon. That is the problem.
If i had to talk about consistency then i'd rank them like this:

0: Mainline games and pkmn ranger games - the consistency itself
1: pokemon evolutions and other official animations (one time i remember it being inconsistent is a spear pillar episode where the protagonist just doesn't exist for some reason)
2: Manga (levels exist, moves function properly and consistently, feats are consistent and are overall befitting the pokedex entries which sometimes are shown to have their own evidence, evolution can be canceled ect. Also real life cities and objects are not limited to the small sizes shown in gameplay)
3: Anime (some consistency in moves and powers and pokedex entries but overall not the best and has bad scaling even compared to manga)
4: PMD games (throws consistency out of the window. Needs some spring to evolve pokemon, needs time gears to not have dialga go mad, darkrai is f-ing evil, pokemon can make buildings relatively fast and have currency and humans exist there in some incomprehensible way)
5: Under-researched manga (its not researched enough yet)

 

[Sniper670]

... And there's still no evidence of power being taken from them. Like this is cool and all it's just not more than tangentially related to the topic at hand.

Doesn't matter. Arceus gives a Pokémon a type, they use the powers of their type. Limited by their biology and feasibility to use the power

And is in the dragon egg type. But is not a Dragon type, so why would Dragon-type cells be prominent? Logical assumption is this is running on a different meaning of "dragon", which the series provides.
Or it can be traced back to other, different things with far less assumptions.

Like the plates? Because thats the origin of their power

It's not even an assumption. Arceus himself said it.

 

[Arceus0x]

I don't mind doing thread mod stuff, it's not like I'll get better by staring at a wall, but I'd just rather not be accused of "pushing a narrative" when I haven't touched a Pokémon game since USUM.

sorry, that is on me. I will say if you are sick just go take a break doing something else. Watch anime or cartoons or sth or just sleep. Either of those activities take less brain power than what you're currently doing and would definitely improve your health.

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn't matter. Arceus gives a Pokémon a type, they use the powers of their type. Limited by their biology and feasibility to use the power

Ok I'm not denying that Arceus is the source of the powers, but if they're not explicitly drawing energy from it to fuel their moves, the whole thing falls apart, and that's what I'm arguing.

Like the plates? Because thats the origin of their power

Why would the dragon ones stand out in particular? It's not a dragon type. Clearly this is about the egg type.

It's not even an assumption. Arceus himself said it.

Where? We're talking about the cell stuff here and I haven't seen anything like that.

sorry, that is on me. I will say if you are sick just go take a break doing something else. Watch anime or cartoons or sth or just sleep. Either of those activities take less brain power than what you're currently doing and would definitely improve your health.

I can still be on site on-and-off, dw about it. Thanks for the concern, though : )

 

[Arceus0x]

I can still be on site on-and-off, dw about it. Thanks for the concern, though : )

no problem mate, it's just that i know too much about being sick, heck, i've been feeling like garbage for the last few weeks, have to eat like 6-8 tablets a day ffs. Hope you get better though.

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways i won't concede yet as i wanna see where Yemma goes with his arguments but i just had my own brain do a bruh moment the moment i realized that the energy ball creating rain was for some reason rain dance used by Alakazam...idk why rain dance in that instance is a friggin energy ball...

After this i will work on another revision which does some good to the abilities and some pokemon's tiers. After that i am thinking of quitting pokemon debating except for maybe versus threads. It's just too much of a headache to deal with considering just how inconsistent it is.

 

[Sniper670]

After this i will work on another revision which does some good to the abilities and some pokemon's tiers. After that i am thinking of quitting pokemon debating except for maybe versus threads. It's just too much of a headache to deal with considering just how inconsistent it is.

Ha. I ranted about this in the Pokémon discussion thread about a month ago

Which is why I'm only ever interested in Arceus and His True Form.

 

[Sniper670]

Ok I'm not denying that Arceus is the source of the powers, but if they're not explicitly drawing energy from it to fuel their moves, the whole thing falls apart, and that's what I'm arguing.

What I'm saying is that if the plates do not exist, then they don't have any powers

The Typings determines what powers you'll be proficient in. It's reflect

They can use other powers, but that won't be as powerful as if you were the type of the power you're using.

This in itself proves there's an underlying energy system at work, which is not just stamina.

The Types is responsible for this

Why would the dragon ones stand out in particular? It's not a dragon type. Clearly this is about the egg type.

Which is related to that type of Pokémon having dragon-like traits, even if they're not dragon.

All of them being able to use several dragon moves.

Again, tracing back to the typings, because like I said earlier, that is the origin of powers in the verse

 

[Sniper670]

Bump

 

[KatBoi69]

I need some background....how are the pokemon planet moving attacks, like Hail or Sunlight currently treated?

 

[Sniper670]

Weather manipulation

The mechanics behind making a freaking sun shine brighter should just be Arceus going "**** it, y'all can do that because I said so"

I mean, all forces of nature can be controlled one way or the other by Pokémon

 

[GyroNutz]

I agree with Armorchompy tbh, a lot of this seems like either specific instances of energy based attacks or conflating the energy (effort) it takes to do something with actual energy. There's an anime episode where Dawn's Piplup becomes too tired to repeatedly use Bubblebeam, and I believe Pikachu shows something similar with his Thunderbolt in the Mewtwo Strikes Back movie.

Arceus plates stuff is legit, but that's all about Arceus bestowing/sharing power with all Pokemon rather than the Pokemon taking this power and turning it into energy.

 

[Sniper670]

There's an anime episode where Dawn's Piplup becomes too tired to repeatedly use Bubblebeam, and I believe Pikachu shows something similar with his Thunderbolt in the Mewtwo Strikes Back movie.

Arceus plates stuff is legit, but that's all about Arceus bestowing/sharing power with all Pokemon rather than the Pokemon taking this power and turning it into energy.

Okay.

If Arceus gives bestows you a psychic type, you can use psychic powers, simple

As we all know, psychic Pokémon harness psychic energy to use their powers for example

Also, this energy thing this is what is used in TCG. Psychic energy card. Also greatly supporting my point that Pokémon are imbued with energy

Which ties into moves like Hidden Power, where the characters straight up blast the opponent with the energy of their type. Those you mentioned are cases of characters being simply tired sure, but that doesn't contradict the fact these Pokémon are inbuilt with a typing that dictates their powers

An example is this. It can harness its energy to change the weather. DeX entries

Dragonair stores an enormous amount of energy inside its body. It is said to alter weather conditions in its vicinity by discharging energy from the crystals on its neck and tail.

A Dragonair stores an enormous amount of energy inside its body. It is said to alter the weather around it by loosing energy from the crystals on its neck and tail.

Stamina? I think Not.

Now to Hidden Power

Through some mysterious power, this move changes type to deal supereffective damage to the target.

A unique attack that varies in type and intensity depending on the Pokémon using it.

In Conclusion, all Pokémon indeed use energy from types to harness their powers, especially so when you look at Universal powers like Hidden Power