Shoto Todoroki VS Sans

[Bruhtelho]

Paranormal Liberation War Arc Todoroki is used

Fight takes place at Kamino, Yokohama Ground Zero

Both start 10 meters apart from each other

Speed is equalized

Fight ends in death

"Just aim all your rage at us!":0

"Do you wanna have a bad time?":0

Inconclusive:0

 

[Kaio1277999]

ok...i read this sans's profile and ask, how is half and half going to deal with sans soul absorption?

 

[Bruhtelho]

ok...i read this sans's profile and ask, how is half and half going to deal with sans soul absorption?

thats non-combat applicable since it'd require him to defeat Todoroki first

 

[Phoenks]

This is just the same thing as every other Sans match...

He attacks Todoroki's soul directly gg.

 

[Bruhtelho]

This is just the same thing as every other Sans match...

He attacks Todoroki's soul directly gg.

all of Todoroki's attacks have massive AOE on them, something Sans hasn't really faced outside of statements that he's faced Flowey who doesnt have super crazy Danmaku or AOE like other characters in undertale.

 

[Kaio1277999]

thats non-combat applicable since it'd require him to defeat Todoroki first

ah ok, well, we still have gravity manipulation, telekinesis and this technique that makes him trap his opponents, his teleportation that will be the biggest impediment of shoto in this fight but now Sans, he doesn't have fire and ice resistance and Shoto does a greater stamina.

 

[Bruhtelho]

ah ok, well, we still have gravity manipulation, telekinesis and this technique that makes him trap his opponents, his teleportation that will be the biggest impediment of shoto in this fight but now Sans, he doesn't have fire and ice resistance and Shoto does a greater stamina.

gravity manipulation comes from turning the Soul Blue which limits movements but greatly increases stuff like jump height, TK is fair, his technique of trapping the opponent in place was done through in gameplay terms, never taking his turn which stated on the profile likely only works under the rules of Undertale's universe.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Has Shoto ever fought someone who could repeatedly teleport them and their opponent over and over to cause confusion? The whole thing with him losing to Chara is that Chara had to die over and over just to adapt to and memorize his patterns, all just to hit him one time.

Also, AoE effects can still be dodged. Sans has spatial manipulation, he can just teleport out of range. He should be able to get a feel for Shoto's attacks from 10 meters away, given how he's a clever analyst (indicated by how he can tell how many times Chara has died to him just by looking at their face).

Leaning towards Sans atm.

 

[Kaio1277999]

gravity manipulation comes from turning the Soul Blue which limits movements but greatly increases stuff like jump height, TK is fair, his technique of trapping the opponent in place was done through in gameplay terms, never taking his turn which stated on the profile likely only works under the rules of Undertale's universe.

sorry, I don't know anything about undertale lol, well there's still this teleportation that he can teleport himself, his attacks, objects and his opponents and these intangible attacks. well Shoto can fly and attack from long distances but that teleport is going to be a big problem

 

[Kaio1277999]

well shoto he's pretty smart in battle, he can think of some way to deal with this teleport

 

[Kaio1277999]

the conversation is very nice but I have to go to sleep, tomorrow we continue

 

[Bruhtelho]

Has Shoto ever fought someone who could repeatedly teleport them and their opponent over and over to cause confusion? The whole thing with him losing to Chara is that Chara had to die over and over just to adapt to and memorize his patterns, all just to hit him one time.

Sans never started teleporting Chara/Frisk around during the fight until his "second phase" when he realized they were no push over and had to get serious trying to throw them off is effect but Todoroki is incredibly smart and can adapt to things on the fly, it'll throw him off but not forever.

Also, AoE effects can still be dodged. Sans has spatial manipulation, he can just teleport out of range. He should be able to get a feel for Shoto's attacks from 10 meters away, given how he's a clever analyst (indicated by how he can tell how many times Chara has died to him just by looking at their face).

Todoroki's AOE is massive, its something Sans has never fought against and is created in the blink of an eye, spatial manipulation? where exactly?, Sans teleporting out of range is just as bad for him since he only has dozens of meters with bones well Todoroki's casual ice and fire attacks can go Hundreds of meters easily, that was him just being a prick towards Frisk/Chara, he's never shown to use that during actual combat situation like during his actual fight against the same person, Sans is smart but so is Todoroki.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah no this is just bad. What the **** is Shoto going to do here? he's got no resistance to soul manipulation so sans is going to be ripping him apart the second any of his danmaku gets to hitting him along with his KR making him die even faster than he would originally, sans being able to easily just teleport away from his AOE, along with Sans' superior reaction speed means Shoto isn't hitting sans with any of his shit until sans physically can't dodge anymore.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Yeah no this is just bad. What the **** is Shoto going to do here? he's got no resistance to soul manipulation so sans is going to be ripping him apart the second any of his danmaku gets to hitting him along with his KR making him die even faster than he would originally, sans being able to easily just teleport away from his AOE, along with Sans' superior reaction speed means Shoto isn't hitting sans with any of his shit until sans physically can't dodge anymore.

"superior reaction speed" Sans' has Hypersonic+ reactions well Todoroki has High Hypersonic attack speed with Half-Cold and Half-Hot alongside his own High Hypersonic reactions and combat speed so thats just completely wrong, yah it'd have to hit Todoroki who isn't gonna sit there and let attacks hit him, he had no problem fighting against Dabi who was spamming insane AOE attacks and has his own danmaku moves constantly keeping Todoroki on his toes, Shoto is gonna constantly keep spamming Ice attacks that can easily clear city blocks like nothing.

 

[Comiphorous]

"superior reaction speed" Sans' has Hypersonic+ reactions well Todoroki has High Hypersonic attack speed with Half-Cold and Half-Hot alongside his own High Hypersonic

read speed equalized rules.
"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

since his reaction speed is the same as his combat speed, that's equalized down too. sans has higher reaction speeds.

yah it'd have to hit Todoroki who isn't gonna sit there and let attacks hit him, he had no problem fighting against Dabi who was spamming insane AOE attacks and has his own danmaku moves constantly keeping Todoroki on his toes, Shoto is gonna constantly keep spamming Ice attacks that can easily clear city blocks like nothing.

sans has shown to teleport his opponents, attacks, and himself around into his attacks aswell. I'm really doubting Todoroki has dealt with Gravity manipulation, mass danmaku (which ignores durability), and him getting teleported all at the same time. they're gonna get overwhelmed.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Sans never started teleporting Chara/Frisk around during the fight until his "second phase" when he realized they were no push over and had to get serious trying to throw them off is effect but Todoroki is incredibly smart and can adapt to things on the fly, it'll throw him off but not forever.

Todoroki's AOE is massive, its something Sans has never fought against and is created in the blink of an eye, spatial manipulation? where exactly?, Sans teleporting out of range is just as bad for him since he only has dozens of meters with bones well Todoroki's casual ice and fire attacks can go Hundreds of meters easily, that was him just being a prick towards Frisk/Chara, he's never shown to use that during actual combat situation like during his actual fight against the same person, Sans is smart but so is Todoroki.

You bring up some good points here and it's caused me to rethink this matchup a bit.

I also wasn't aware that spatial manipulation was removed from Sans's profile, I was much more active here in 2016-2017 and I strongly recall Sans having spatial manipulation during that time. Probably wasn't around to witness it getting removed.

I'll post my thoughts in a bit.

 

[Comiphorous]

I'd also like to mention sans was able to kill flowey enough times to force him to reset due to a lack of willpower. Flowey implies he died countless times against him meaning flowey had prior knowledge plus countless lives of practice on how sans fought and still lost against him.

i cannot see sans losing here, not definitely atleast.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'd also like to mention sans was able to kill flowey enough times to force him to reset due to a lack of willpower. Flowey implies he died countless times against him meaning flowey had prior knowledge plus countless lives of practice on how sans fought and still lost against him.

i cannot see sans losing here, not definitely atleast.

What form did Flowey fight Sans in? That could be a game changer, as it determines what stuff Sans has and hasn't dealt with.

 

[Comiphorous]

What form did Flowey fight Sans in? That could be a game changer, here as it determines what stuff Sans has and hasn't dealt with.

Base flowey, though flowey did have access to save/loads/resets during their fight.

 

[Bruhtelho]

read speed equalized rules.
"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

since his reaction speed is the same as his combat speed, that's equalized down too. sans has higher reaction speeds.

can you explain this for me? im really damn confused right now by this.

sans has shown to teleport his opponents, attacks, and himself around into his attacks aswell. I'm really doubting Todoroki has dealt with Gravity manipulation, mass danmaku (which ignores durability), and him getting teleported all at the same time. they're gonna get overwhelmed.

Sans started teleporting frisk/chara around after he realized they weren't a push over though im sure he would here as well, Gravity Manipulation that doesnt really prevent Todoroki from still moving around just fine like Frisk was able to move around under its effects and Todoroki can still fly by using his flame side but that'd be countered by TK, mass danmaku is gonna be a problem but its not gonna be impossible to dodge and with his superior range it'll be harder for Sans to actually land some of those crazier things as him and Frisk are pretty close during the fight and it took place in the judgement hall a far less open area then the location I put that also gives Todoroki a homefield advantage so he'll know the area far better and allow him to use his Ice more freely for things such as movement and such, im sure they could overwhelm him but Todoroki can overwhelm Sans just as hard with his AOE + Range spam since again its something Sans has very little combat experience against only being able to make up for it with teleportation alongside Todoroki's several fire attacks being incredibly hot, far above Sans' current resistance level.

 

[Comiphorous]

can you explain this for me? im really damn confused right now by this.

Todoroki is High Hypersonic, and so is his reaction speeds. since Speed equalized rules say that the combat speed of the faster fighter is equalized, Todoroki is now Hypersonic to be equal with sans, but since every other speed variable goes by the same variable, that means Todorokoi's reaction speed is Hypersonic, since it's the same as his combat speed.

Sans started teleporting frisk/chara around after he realized they weren't a push over though im sure he would here as well

What? no he never saw them as a pushover. he only ever confronts them when he knows you're a threat to more than just monster kind, but all life at that point.

Gravity Manipulation that doesnt really prevent Todoroki from still moving around just fine like Frisk was able to move around under its effects and Todoroki can still fly

Frisk can only move when sans is actively NOT using it, when they're under the effects of his soul-based telekinesis they cannot move (besides obviously sans forcibly moving them). flying doesn't matter when your soul is being thrown into the ground.

mass danmaku is gonna be a problem but its not gonna be impossible to dodge and with his superior range it'll be harder for Sans to actually land some of those crazier things as him and Frisk are pretty close during the fight and it took place in the judgement hall a far less open area then the location I put that also gives Todoroki a homefield advantage so he'll know the area far better and allow him to use his Ice more freely for things such as movement and such

All of this is just damn wrong. Papyrus who sans' magic is superior to fought frisk in an open area, and we have no idea how close sand was to frisk during their fight, considering how much sans teleports himself and frisk.

movement isn't gonna matter because again, being thrown into the ground from your soul counters all mobility options in this situation.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Todoroki is High Hypersonic, and so is his reaction speeds. since Speed equalized rules say that the combat speed of the faster fighter is equalized, Todoroki is now Hypersonic to be equal with sans, but since every other speed variable goes by the same variable, that means Todorokoi's reaction speed is Hypersonic, since it's the same as his combat speed.

so Todoroki's things are equalized to Sans' Hypersonic end since thats his speed alongside everything else but Sans' reaction speed is untouched by this? if im getting that right.

 

[Comiphorous]

so Todoroki's things are equalized to Sans' Hypersonic end since thats his speed alongside everything else but Sans' reaction speed is untouched by this? if im getting that right.

sans is untouched due to him being slower, and the speed changes only effecting Todoroki.

 

[Bruhtelho]

sans is untouched due to him being slower, and the speed changes only effecting Todoroki.

ohh that makes more sense now

then would this be a stomp? since Sans' just reacts to everything Todoroki throws out and has far more options to keep Todoroki from properly using his Ice and stuff.

 

[Comiphorous]

ohh that makes more sense now

then would this be a stomp? since Sans' just reacts to everything Todoroki throws out and has far more options to keep Todoroki from properly using his Ice and stuff.

Shoto has superior stamina, meaning it's possible for him to outlast sans.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Shoto has superior stamina, meaning it's possible for him to outlast him.

given KR would basically negate that chance since it'd kill him slowly if any of Sans' attacks connect, im pretty sure its a stomp.

 

[Comiphorous]

given KR would basically negate that chance since it'd kill him slowly if any of Sans' attacks connect, im pretty sure its a stomp.

Unfortunate.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I wouldn't say it's a stomp. All Shoto has to do is get out of range and Sans can't do much. As Bruhtelho made clear, Shoto's AoE and superior range are greater than Anything Sans has had to deal with.

What's important to understand is that Frisk just has a knife and Flowey just has a basic petal danmaku. Both of which are very simple arsenals that can easily be dealt with via teleportation. Hundred meter range AoE attacks are not, and they certainly cannot be dealt with simply by sidestepping a few feet to the left. Sans will actually have to push himself to avoid them, and he cannot do that forever.

On top of that, Frisk and Chara are not trained fighters, so they have to rely on Save/Load just to dodge and learn attack patterns, but Shoto is a very adaptable fighter himself and actually has an offensive arsenal that can put pressure on Sans.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Also, Frisk/Chara can absolutely still move when Sans is using his gravity manipulation, they're just slowed down and have their jumping nerfed.

 

[Comiphorous]

I wouldn't say it's a stomp. All Shoto has to do is get out of range and Sans can't do much. As Bruhtelho made clear, Shoto's AoE and superior range are greater than Anything Sans has had to deal with.

Sans can teleport closer. sans' teleportation lets him teleport pretty far distances. he can teleport from the start of snowdin forest all the way to to the other side, the nigh beginning of snowdin town.

What's important to understand is that Frisk just has a knife and Flowey just has a basic petal danmaku. Both of which are very simple arsenals that can easily be dealt with via teleportation. Hundred meter range AoE attacks are not, and they certainly cannot be dealt with simply by sidestepping a few feet to the left. Sans will actually have to push himself to avoid them, and he cannot do that forever.

Problem with that. when sans' opponent know every single one of his attacks and still get their ass handed to them it means someone with high prior knowledge and reliant on said knowledge means nothing clearly shows how complicated his danmaku is.

sans, once more, can teleport very far distances as I've said. it won't take sans much to just teleport over to him and continue to bother him.

On top of that, Frisk and Chara are not trained fighters, so they have to rely on Save/Load just to dodge and learn attack patterns, but Shoto is a very adaptable fighter himself and actually has an offensive arsenal that can put pressure on Sans.

Frisk is a competent fighter by the end of the genocide route, or any route in that matter. being able to compete with fully trained royal guardsmen and the king of monsters, who survived the monster human war is a clear showcase that they're more than a competent fighter.

 

[Comiphorous]

Also, Frisk/Chara can absolutely still move when Sans is using his gravity manipulation, they're just slowed down and have their jumping nerfed.

they can make incredibly minor movements, and no, they cannot jump in the air. I'm talking about sans' telekinesis, something where you have to wait for you to make contact with the wall before you can jump and make actual noticeable movements.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Problem with that. when sans' opponent know every single one of his attacks and still get their ass handed to them it means someone with high prior knowledge and reliant on said knowledge means nothing clearly shows how complicated his danmaku is.

sans, once more, can teleport very far distances as I've said. it won't take sans much to just teleport over to him and continue to bother him.

though teleporting close could also be his down fall, as Todoroki has counters for this type of thing like his Wall of Flames being a burst of flames which he uses as a defensive and offensive attack alongside creating distance between himself and the opponent, other moves like his entire Flashfire Fist line up are designed to be closer ranged attacks and he also has access to Danmaku attacks which would be Hell Spider which creates serveral beams of fire from his fingertips that he uses to cut through his opponents.

 

[Comiphorous]

though teleporting close could also be his down fall, as Todoroki has counters for this type of thing like his Wall of Flames being a burst of flames which he uses as a defensive and offensive attack alongside creating distance between himself and the opponent, other moves like his entire Flashfire Fist line up are designed to be closer ranged attacks and he also has access to Danmaku attacks which would be Hell Spider which creates serveral beams of fire from his fingertips that he uses to cut through his opponents.

luckily sans is more than capable of reacting to anything like that, which will make that less than a problem he cant handle.

 

[Bruhtelho]

luckily sans is more than capable of reacting to anything like that, which will make that less than a problem he cant handle.

yah seems that way with his far greater reaction speed so still leaning towards this being a stomp as Todoroki lacks any real way of hitting Sans due to the speed difference

 

[denzeelmao]

Sans due to Soul Manipulation and FRA

 

[Kaio1277999]

hey guys, please let's not forget something very important, which is the ap,durability and ss of these two?sans has an ap,durability and ss of 10-b, but with telekinesis he has an ap,ss 9 -A, Shoto has a high 8-c ap,ss, with 8-b durability, but now with his fire and ice, his ap and durability are 7-c, being even higher with HPIW (7-B) FFF,FF and FFHW(7-A), as we saw in the usj arc, Shoto's ice can destroy his opponent from the inside out just by touching his opponent with ice, even though sans doesn't have fire and ice attacks, Shoto could receive more attacks from sans, with shoto's attacks having such a superior ap, he would win this fight with one attack BUT this teleportation is still a problem, but adding the fact that his speed is equalized, shoto's stamina is superior, Shoto have knowledge of such power , and the fact that he is very smart in battle, and he can receive much more attacks than Sans can receive, one hour or another Shoto will manage to hit him, this fight is a the resistance fight, for sans to win he will have to defeat Shoto as soon as possible. well, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in anything, finally, can Shoto be considered someone with a strong soul?

 

[Dragonite007]

hey guys, please let's not forget something very important, which is the ap,durability and ss of these two?sans has an ap,durability and ss of 10-b, but with telekinesis he has an ap,ss 9 -A, Shoto has a high 8-c ap,ss, with 8-b durability, but now with his fire and ice, his ap and durability are 7-c, being even higher with HPIW (7-B) FFF,FF and FFHW(7-A), as we saw in the usj arc, Shoto's ice can destroy his opponent from the inside out just by touching his opponent with ice, even though sans doesn't have fire and ice attacks, Shoto could receive more attacks from sans, with shoto's attacks having such a superior ap, he would win this fight with one attack BUT this teleportation is still a problem, but adding the fact that his speed is equalized, shoto's stamina is superior, Shoto have knowledge of such power , and the fact that he is very smart in battle, and he can receive much more attacks than Sans can receive, one hour or another Shoto will manage to hit him, this fight is a the resistance fight, for sans to win he will have to defeat Shoto as soon as possible. well, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in anything, finally, can Shoto be considered someone with a strong soul?

Sans has Dura neg

can Shoto be considered someone with a strong soul?

No

 

[Kaio1277999]

No

Why not?

 

[Dragonite007]

Boku no Hero don't have soul manipulation

Why not?

 

[Naito-desu]

Thinking if Sans' Soul Manip one shots or at least insta incaps, he takes this easy. Teleport, TK, and higher reaction speed probably does it but the risk of getting one-shot is pretty great if he even catches a whiff of Todoroki's attack. So yeah, voting Sans.