Funny Bone Man against a supersoldier

[Kerr5]

Did you miss where i blatantly showed you they usually dont control their magic's movement with toriel killing you (who didn't want to do that.) atleast read the replies before you respond.

You didn't blatantly showed anything, Toriel can possibly kill you by accident because she doesn't know how much HP you have, and they "seem" doing anything is not a proof at all, that's just headcannon based on intuition, nothing purely empirical.

The only "argument" there was Toriel and it wasn't a real argument, it was just you interpretating things convenently, because that can have multiple reasons, besides, there's a ton of times where characters blatantly shows to control attacks by their own.

When Dogamy is sad, he's so depressed that his attacks became so inefficent that you can dodge it via standing there, Dogaressa attacks become much more aggresive cause she's angry, Flowey makes the bullets stop until he ends his monologue, etc.

now you're not even understanding how frisk killed him. sans was only ever killed once frisk broke the rules of the verse to hit him, and he was completely out of energy at that point. hell, sans STILL reacts to him being attacked before he's truly hit, he was just too tired to move.

Still not enough, man, i've seen times where the difference is x1.3 and characters speed aren't uploaded even with blitz chains, here we're talking of a difference of over 1.6, no, that's not enough at all for Hypersonic+ Sans.

Just a little example: Genos massively upscales from a 9-A Saitama with a Mach 3.5 feat (a bit more than x1.4 times from Hypersonic speed), Genos scaling chain is way bigger, characters difference is massive, and even with that he's not Hypersonic but "At least Supersonic+ likely higher", hell, this even happens to characters like Boros, B O R O S, Sans scaling is not even a 2 characters chain, here we're talking of massive differences, huge scaling chains, and still not enough.

 

[Comiphorous]

You didn't blatantly showed anything, Toriel can possibly kill you by accident because she doesn't know how much HP you have, and they "seem" doing anything is not a proof at all, that's just headcannon based on intuition, nothing purely empirical.

so toriel just figures out you're hp once her turn ends? yeah not sure that's how it works.

When Dogamy is sad, he's so depressed that his attacks became so inefficent that you can dodge it via standing there, Dogaressa attacks become much more aggresive cause she's angry, Flowey makes the bullets stop until he ends his monologue, etc.

What does that have to do with anything?

Just a little example: Genos massively upscales from a 9-A Saitama with a Mach 3.5 feat (a bit more than x1.4 times from Hypersonic speed), Genos scaling chain is way bigger, characters difference is massive, and even with that he's not Hypersonic but "At least Supersonic+ likely higher", hell, this even happens to characters like Boros, B O R O S, Sans scaling is not even a 2 characters chain, here we're talking of massive differences, huge scaling chains, and still not enough.

Hypersonic and Hypersonic+ are in the same tier, dumbass. also, no, its case-by-case.

plus iirc sans' scaling chain is something like Sans >>>>> Genocide LV 19 Frisk > Undyne the Undying > Genocide LV 13-15 Frisk Sea Tea Boosted (4x) >>>> Sea Tea Boosted (4x) Pacifist LV 1 Frisk = Mach 6.1 = 2x the Mach 3.05 feat.


so tl;dr. no. you're blatantly either unaware of how things work, mentioning things that don't mean anything, or just ignoring stuff and calling it headcanon, despite the fact if they did control their magic's movement, toriel wouldn't have killed you there.

 

[Kerr5]

so toriel just figures out you're hp once her turn ends? yeah not sure that's how it works.

She doesn't know how much HP you have so she kills you accidentally cause she can't know how damage you can take before dying, there's no reason to think that Toriel just can't control his attacks, is just supposition basing on a concrete interpretation you make, when is not even the only possibility, for that is headcannon.

What does that have to do with anything?

I literally showed you characters controlling his attacks conciently in no open for interpretation cases unlike Toriel.

Hypersonic and Hypersonic+ are in the same tier

This is not only irrelevant, this is not even an argument

dumbass

You really getting triggered so easily? you better calm down, if you wanna start an exchange of insults then i'll ignore you and this debate will end here.

also, no, its case-by-case.

Do you know what "example" means? my point is that Genos has way more scaling for upgrading in a smaller gap, and even in that case he's not upgraded, and as i said is just that, an "example",that happens all the time and that's precisely the point, Sans is an exception to a ton of times huge gaps aren't uploaded even with a x1.2 difference.

plus iirc sans' scaling chain is something like Sans >>>>> Genocide LV 19 Frisk > Undyne the Undying > Genocide LV 13-15 Frisk Sea Tea Boosted (4x) >>>> Sea Tea Boosted (4x) Pacifist LV 1 Frisk = Mach 6.1 = 2x the Mach 3.05 feat.

No lmao.
There's literally 0 proof that upgrading your AP increases also your speed, there's no reason to think that Frisk lvl 15 is faster than lvl 1 Frisk, this is just pure manipulation, there's nothing indicating Undyne being faster than Frisk and then Frisk becoming faster than that Undyne.

The scaling chain is this:

Sans > Sea Tea Boosted Frisk (Mach 6.1)

And dot, everything else is just overthinking pretty obvious stuff.

 

[Comiphorous]

she can't know how damage you can take before dying

a 9-A literally restricts themselves down to 9-B. she clearly knows.

I literally showed you characters controlling his attacks conciently in no open for interpretation cases unlike Toriel.

your first example is literally someone having no will to fight, that's not controlling your magic.
Dogressa is also not an example. that's them making an aggressive attack, not controlling their magic in the context of this. the flowey thing uh... never happens? yes he surrounds you in his magic and it sits there but he does that... when he's photoshop-flowey... an entirely different form with human souls...

No lmao.
There's literally 0 proof that upgrading your AP increases also your speed, there's no reason to think that Frisk lvl 15 is faster than lvl 1 Frisk, this is just pure manipulation, there's nothing indicating Undyne being faster than Frisk and then Frisk becoming faster than that Undyne.

that's not his ap scaling chain... that's his speed scaling chain...

and what do you mean there's no reason to think that? frisk goes from fighting supersonic characters to fighting hypersonic characters, that's becoming faster...

Undyne being superior to frisk in countless ways would make one believe that.

Sans > Sea Tea Boosted Frisk (Mach 6.1)

too bad it's not this, since he obviously upscales into hypersonic+ reaction speeds.

which that doesn't

 

[Kerr5]

a 9-A literally restricts themselves down to 9-B. she clearly knows.

She restricts to 9-B based on what?, Frisk power is 9-A during the majority of fights, it ONLY increase if you increase your LV
The 9-B key for Frisk is when his determination is low, he was moderatively determined against Toriel, both 9-A

your first example is literally someone having no will to fight, that's not controlling your magic.

I'm showing you that magic actions directly depends of the monster and they're not individualistic.

the flowey thing uh... never happens?

It literally happens at least twice at the beginning of the game, here's not only magic depending on monsters but Flowey consciently controlling his magical attacks

and what do you mean there's no reason to think that? frisk goes from fighting supersonic characters to fighting hypersonic characters, that's becoming faster...

The only characters who become faster are the enemies, Frisk's speed is constant.

that's not his ap scaling chain... that's his speed scaling chain...

That's exactly what i'm saying, there's proof that their scaling chain is correct for AP, but nothing indicates that speed scaling chain is correct, for that i said AP and Speed aren't directly proportional.

Undyne being superior to frisk in countless ways would make one believe that.

This is not even an argument

too bad it's not this, since he obviously upscales into hypersonic+ reaction speeds.

which that doesn't

So you aren't able to proof Sans having Hypersonic+ reactions so it probably be a wank, i may make a CRT about that.

 

[Comiphorous]

She restricts to 9-B based on what?, Frisk power is 9-A during the majority of fights, it ONLY increase if you increase your LV
The 9-B key for Frisk is when his determination is low, he was moderatively determined against Toriel, both 9-A

Fighting toriel at level 1 still makes frisk subsonic at that moment and there's no indication (nor any real reason they would be) that frisk is any more determined than they usually are. that means they're still 9-B (and subsonic) while fighting a 9-A (who's hypersonic) holding back their magic to be 9-B.

I'm showing you that magic actions directly depends of the monster and they're not individualistic.

You showed that someone who had no will to fight threw a shitty attack, which is self-explanatory why that doesn't help your point.

It literally happens at least twice at the beginning of the game, here's not only magic depending on monsters but Flowey consciently controlling his magical attacks

Flowey isn't a monster, for one, but that's beside the point. flowey does this three times; twice while he talks for like, 2 seconds (realistically speaking) at best before they fly at you, and one where he's a god like being.

i would say flowey in his photoshop form should be fully capable of just having his magic sit there for a little bit, but that's not really anything when it comes to sans, who never has shown that he could do the same thing flowey did here. nor has his brother done such a thing, who his magic is similar to.

nor can you scale that feat to sans since flowey isn't a monster, making it illogical for you to scale a non-monster to a monster because they did that.

The only characters who become faster are the enemies, Frisk's speed is constant.

and frisk when gaining lv becomes superior to them, meaning the speed increases with their lv (and determination).

So you aren't able to proof Sans having Hypersonic+ reactions so it probably be a wank, i may make a CRT about that.

I showed you his speed scaling chain and then said 'no its not lol'. what do you mean 'no proof'? you just said no to his scaling chain and then made up a random one.

make a crt if you want, but the scaling chain I showed you (or a similar one) will be shown and will be a waste of time.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[Kerr5]

Fighting toriel at level 1 still makes frisk subsonic at that moment and there's no indication (nor any real reason they would be) that frisk is any more determined than they usually are. that means they're still 9-B (and subsonic) while fighting a 9-A (who's hypersonic) holding back their magic to be 9-B.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Frisk "Subsonic+ with minimal Determination, up to Hypersonic with higher levels of Determination", Subsonic+ is the minimal, the usual Frisk is Hypersonic.
When fighting bosses Frisk is usually more determined that at the minimal, this happens in all bosses, specially if you try to don't hurt her, Frisk is determined to keep going without hurting Toriel, that's enough reason, specially when "being determined" or "not being" is so vague that there's no proof of how determined Frisk is to begin with, so he wanting to leave without hurting Toriel is enough.

holding back their magic to be 9-B.

it's the opposite, Frisk enduring Toriel attacks is proof of him being more determined than usual, not that Toriel is holding back, that's a fallacy based in pure bias.

You showed that someone who had no will to fight threw a shitty attack, which is self-explanatory why that doesn't help your point.

and that proofs that magical attacks are directly dependeant of the monster consiousness, i really don't get what's so hard to understand.

Flowey isn't a monster

nothing indicates that his attacks works different from actual monsters.

sans, who never has shown that he could do the same thing flowey did here.

that's literally what you're trying to do with Sans, Toriel, and the rest of monsters.

nor can you scale that feat to sans since flowey isn't a monster, making it illogical for you to scale a non-monster to a monster because they did that.

again, do you have anything proving that Flowey's magical attacks works different from regular monsters? no, you don't, again, pure bias.

Flowey's attacks looks exactly the same as regular monsters, there's nothing different on the way they fight, this is not an argument.

and frisk when gaining lv becomes superior to them, meaning the speed increases with their lv (and determination).

Show me them being blitzed by Frisk in that case, Frisk only one shots them which doesn't mean he's faster, you can't scale Speed from AP, what the heck.

I showed you his speed scaling chain and then said 'no its not lol'. what do you mean 'no proof'? you just said no to his scaling chain and then made up a random one.

you don't have anything proving Frisk became faster than those monsters, just that he has superior AP, and again, having superior AP and more lv is not an argument for Speed

 

[Kerr5]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

Honestly i don't know if i wanna continue, arguments are really bad and being as sincere as i can, i don't care enough about this.

 

[Comiphorous]

nothing indicates that his attacks works different from actual monsters.

except that he does stuff with his magic that literally no one else does.

holding it in place then letting the attack move forward (flowey is the only character in the game who outright makes it stay in place, with characters who have slowed down their attacks most of the time signaturing them using their weapon, not actual magic [doggo, the dog couple I can never remember the names of, etc]), the magic being his actual body, being his flower pellets (which he does have come from his body in his introduction, meaning it's not just that he has access to flower related magic)

that's literally what you're trying to do with Sans, Toriel, and the rest of monsters.

why wouldn't they? they're all the same species and the only difference between their magic is just the style of it and very specific abilities from said magic. the basis of monster magic should all be the same, but flowey (who is not a monster mind you) does something NOBODY ELSE in the entire game does it's a bit weird to think everyone else would be capable of that despite nobody else pausing their magic like he does. flowey is the only person in the game who can pause their magic and such, and shouldn't scale to the entire underground just because it's 'magic'

Flowey's attacks looks exactly the same as regular monsters, there's nothing different on the way they fight, this is not an argument.

except for the fact that they're literally his biological pellets on his body, shown in his introduction.

which, last I checked, nobody else (besides a few exceptions who have valid reasoning for it like the amalgamates, Aaron, and temmie [who, never show to do the same thing flowey did even when their magic follows the same logic as his]) summons their magic directly off their body/weaponize parts of their body like flowey clearly shows to do.

Show me them being blitzed by Frisk in that case, Frisk only one shots them which doesn't mean he's faster, you can't scale Speed from AP, what the heck.

Why would frisk blitz people comparable to themselves?

frisk is still subsonic in the ruins/snowdin on the genocide run, meaning they couldn't blitz there.

frisk is supersonic in waterfall from keeping up with monsters they couldn't one-shot yet, cant blitz there.

frisk is hypersonic by the undyne fight from keeping up with her, meaning couldn't blitz undyne, and anyone past that since they'd be comparable in speed to everyone after that.

where would frisk exactly blitz throughout their run again?

you don't have anything proving Frisk became faster than those monsters, just that he has superior AP, and again, having superior AP and more lv is not an argument for Speed

Frisk doesn't one-shot the new monsters they encounter from each area (snowdin/hotland/core), so they'd have to physically be able to keep up with the monsters they're killing since they can fight back before being eventually killed.

 

[Kerr5]

holding it in place then letting the attack move forward (flowey is the only character in the game who outright makes it stay in place, with characters who have slowed down their attacks most of the time signaturing them using their weapon, not actual magic [doggo, the dog couple I can never remember the names of, etc]), the magic being his actual body, being his flower pellets (which he does have come from his body in his introduction, meaning it's not just that he has access to flower related magic)

This happens with literally any character in the game, i didn't see Toriel attacking with bones, or Undyne attacking with a trident, if you use this as an argument to say Flowey can't be compared to other monsters then Toriel argument is ruined by itself.

they're all the same species

No, they aren't, Sans is a skeleton, Toriel an humanoid goat, Undyne a anthropomorfic fish, etc. "Monsters" englobes a ton of species, biologically speaking we can say they are a "group of species" just like we humans are mamals, but not all mamals are humans.

the only difference between their magic is just the style of it and very specific abilities from said magic

Same thing can be said for Flowey, every character in the game showed completely different abilities, even in the same species, Toriel doesn't has several of Asgore's attacks, Papyrus can't attack you while is your turn like Sans do, or use platforms, so we has 2 options:

A) Every character in the game has a different function so we can't use other characters to scale the magical behavior.
B) Every character in the game use the same magical functions but in different ways depending on their species, likes, and weapons.

does something NOBODY ELSE in the entire game does

Sans dodge, nobody else dodge.
Sans can attack you while is your turn.
Sans can skip time during his last attack and teleport you.
Sans can have the first turn attacking you by suprise.
Sans can use an unavoidable attack until you have 1hp left, the only character shown to be able to do this apart from Sans is, ironically Flowey, in both base form and being Asriel.

Using this logic, you can't scale magical behavior of others characters to Sans since he has by far stranger behavior than Flowey, but honestly this is not a point.

Asgore breaks the Mercy button before the fight starts.
Papyrus special attack is a running gag, nobody else did something like that.
Napstablook can write during his turn instead of attacking you.
don't forget about Papyrus date.

The only characters with a "generic" behavior are the random enemies like Froggit and others, most relevant characters can do unique things during their fight, this has more to do with narrative than magical funcionament, is a way to express whats going on, this doesn't means Flowey is an exception, is just a way to express different stuff using the gameplay.

flowey is the only person in the game who can pause their magic and such

Napstablook can control his magic to the point of creating a hat made of pure tears, Papyrus can control his bones to the point of use them to write things.

Again, why monsters can't control their magic exactly?

except for the fact that they're literally his biological pellets on his body, shown in his introduction.

Aaron attacks using his arms, Froggit attacks jumping, etc.
Even generic enemies can do that.

(besides a few exceptions who have valid reasoning for it like the amalgamates, Aaron, and temmie

show me the valid reasons

Why would frisk blitz people comparable to themselves?

Because you're saying he upscales from them.

frisk is still subsonic in the ruins/snowdin on the genocide run, meaning they couldn't blitz there.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Frisk "Subsonic+ with minimal Determination, up to Hypersonic with higher levels of Determination", Subsonic+ is the minimal, the usual Frisk is Hypersonic.

Didn't answer that btw

frisk is supersonic in waterfall from keeping up with monsters they couldn't one-shot yet, cant blitz there.

And he keeps up with literally any character in the game even in the Pacifist Route.

where would frisk exactly blitz throughout their run again?

Hotland characters who can keep up with him in the Pacifist Route meaning speed is comparable to level 1 Frisk but you're saying that Genocide Frisk is like 10 times faster but he can't blitz those characters who keep up with lvl 1 Frisk...
You really don't get the problem man?

so they'd have to physically be able to keep up with the monsters they're killing since they can fight back before being eventually killed.

you can't scale Speed from AP, what the heck.

Being stronger ≠ being faster

 

[Comiphorous]

No, they aren't, Sans is a skeleton, Toriel an humanoid goat, Undyne a anthropomorfic fish, etc. "Monsters" englobes a ton of species, biologically speaking we can say they are a "group of species" just like we humans are mamals, but not all mamals are humans.

Biologically they are quite literally the same considering they're all made of magic. it's hard to believe that a shit ton of separate species just so happened to all be made of magic and get together.

Same thing can be said for Flowey, every character in the game showed completely different abilities, even in the same species, Toriel doesn't has several of Asgore's attacks, Papyrus can't attack you while is your turn like Sans do, or use platforms, so we has 2 options:

The attacks toriel lacks from asgore is because asgore has a weapon in his fight, and using it. apart from that asgore only uses fire magic, which toriel has full access to as much as asgore does.

sans was cheating in that instance and abusing game mechanics, papyrus has no reason (or really should be capable of, even if he wanted to) doing that at all.

A) Every character in the game has a different function so we can't use other characters to scale the magical behavior.
B) Every character in the game use the same magical functions but in different ways depending on their species, likes, and weapons.

I mean, A makes somewhat sense but the fact that all magic follows the 'Ignores durability through soul damage', which is a weird coincidence that they all follow that specific function.

B works well with weapons and such, and doesn't add too many problems alike with magic.

Sans dodge, nobody else dodge.
Sans can attack you while is your turn.
Sans can skip time during his last attack and teleport you.
Sans can have the first turn attacking you by suprise.
Sans can use an unavoidable attack until you have 1hp left, the only character shown to be able to do this apart from Sans is, ironically Flowey, in both base form and being Asriel.

Asgore can dodge.
Thats him abusing game mechanics
When did he skip time?
Thats not his magic
Thats not magic functions, that's just sans being an ass and flowey... being flowey I guess idk he's an ass too-

Using this logic, you can't scale magical behavior of others characters to Sans since he has by far stranger behavior than Flowey, but honestly this is not a point.

All of his weird behaviors don't come from his magic attacks, and come from him directly abusing game mechanics, which cannot be proven to be apart of his magic.

Asgore breaks the Mercy button before the fight starts.
Papyrus special attack is a running gag, nobody else did something like that.
Napstablook can write during his turn instead of attacking you.
don't forget about Papyrus date.

Using a weapon. not magic.
being a running gag that shows up twice (I think) doesn't make his magic any more special than anyone else.
The text doesn't damage you, which means it wasn't magic (nor did it show any properties of magic that wouldn't normally damage you in that circumstance)
Im gonna be honest, I don't remember much about his date-

Napstablook can control his magic to the point of creating a hat made of pure tears, Papyrus can control his bones to the point of use them to write things.

Papyrus could also just be... placing them that way? he doesn't really need to be that complicated, he could have just placed them up like that, which seems more likely that he made them warp into that formation.

Again, why monsters can't control their magic exactly?

Because the weird living flower who isn't a monster is the only weirdo who's shown to do that, and the few people who have (like aaron, temmie, and the amalgams) have their reasoning of it either; not being magic (aaron is probably not summoning giant fists, and probably just punching you, which makes a lot more sense than him summoning giant fists.) temmie is self weaponizing herself and just... growing longer legs, which isn't magic, and the amalgamates are in the same boat as temmie, who are using their very liquid state to weaponize their body, or straight up biting you.

those specific situations have reasoning of them being literally either not magic or self weaponization, flowey just... i guess ***** off with the other magic that's been shown and does it anyways.

Aaron attacks using his arms, Froggit attacks jumping, etc.
Even generic enemies can do that.

Aaron punching you in the face isn't a type of magic, and froggit jumping on you like a trollgier is also not magic.

show me the valid reasons

Temmie is literally stepping on you, so they should be fully capable of moving their body however, Aaron is literally punching you or sweating on you, so he should also be able to move his limbs however, and the amalgamates self weaponize and either attack you with magic or just physically attack you (lemon head thing bites you, the endogeny pukes... arrows at you?, etc)

Because you're saying he upscales from them.

Im saying the LV they gain they get faster because if they didn't they'd still be subsonic, which would make them blitzed by anyone past the ruins. which by their wiki profile it doesn't even mention higher determination in their speed besides the fact they should be comparable to their high determination self, not that they're that fast with higher determination

nothing mentions they're getting faster through determination there.

Didn't answer that btw

that's pacifist frisk key, not genocide frisk who doesn't mention higher with determination. they're just naturally as fast as themself with high amounts of determinationo.

And he keeps up with literally any character in the game even in the Pacifist Route.

the times they do either boils down to two reasoning;

They're naturally as fast with the person (ruins monsters, likely some snowdin monsters)

determination (undyne, asgore, asriel, ect)

being faster already (some of the amalgamates, otherwise determination)

Hotland characters who can keep up with him in the Pacifist Route meaning speed is comparable to level 1 Frisk but you're saying that Genocide Frisk is like 10 times faster but he can't blitz those characters who keep up with lvl 1 Frisk...
You really don't get the problem man?

Hotland monsters are hypersonic, and genocide frisk is hypersonic beyond waterfall through scaling to the same feat hotland and core monsters do. no blitzing to be done there.

Being stronger ≠ being faster

already mentioned genocide frisk's page doesn't mention determination at all besides being naturally as fast as themselves with high determination.

it's never mentioned they're that fast through determination.

 

[Kerr5]

Biologically they are quite literally the same considering they're all made of magic. it's hard to believe that a shit ton of separate species just so happened to all be made of magic and get together.

That's literally what happens with humans and mammals, we aren't "literally the same" but we have a list of things in common so we are part of the same group: Mammals, same happens with monsters, they aren't a singular species.

sans was cheating in that instance and abusing game mechanics

This is not even a point, the only fact that Sans can do that is already something that puts him as an exception to the rule, cause besides him, only Flowey and Asgore did something like that (Asgore in a really limited way)

which is a weird coincidence that they all follow that specific function.

That answers itself, because is magic, is like saying: Trees are alive, humans are alive, humans and trees behave literally the same in any imaginable way.

Asgore can dodge.

What, i finished the game like 17 times and Asgore never dodges, i mean, he doesn't dodge your attacks, which is my point.

Thats him abusing game mechanics

As i said, your point is that i can't use Flowey as an argument because he behaves weird, and just as i showed you, Sans also behaves weird, even weirder than Flowey, having abilities using the 4th wall is something that a human, a demon, a monster and Flowey can do, that's my point, that Flowey doing unique things doesn't puts him as an exception.

When did he skip time?

here

Thats not magic functions, that's just sans being an ass and flowey... being flowey I guess idk he's an ass too-

My problem is, Undyne wanna kill you, hell, like, everyone in the Genocide Route wanna kill you, but anyone except from them can do that, if everyone can, Undyne would just do it and then steal your soul.

All of his weird behaviors don't come from his magic attacks, and come from him directly abusing game mechanics, which cannot be proven to be apart of his magic.

What about Karmic Retribution?

Papyrus could also just be... placing them that way? he doesn't really need to be that complicated, he could have just placed them up like that, which seems more likely that he made them warp into that formation.

that's so convenently, i mean, he would need to do that so fast and he said that was just a normal attack.

Because the weird living flower who isn't a monster is the only weirdo who's shown to do that

Napstablook can, and he can control magic with so much precision to recreate a perfect hat.

Im saying the LV they gain they get faster because if they didn't they'd still be subsonic, which would make them blitzed by anyone past the ruins. which by their wiki profile it doesn't even mention higher determination in their speed besides the fact they should be comparable to their high determination self, not that they're that fast with higher determination

in that case there's a severe problem with the profiles, throughout the entire game there's nothing indicating you became faster, they should just be Hypersonic and dot, cause everyone is at the same level as lvl 1 Frisk in terms of speed but also at the same level as genocide route Frisk, so genocide route Frisk being faster is a nonsense.

that's pacifist frisk key, not genocide frisk who doesn't mention higher with determination. they're just naturally as fast as themself with high amounts of determinationo.

That's the problem, that Frisk is equal to Hotland enemies which are equals to lvl 1 Frisk, hell even Froggit should be Hypersonic.

being faster already (some of the amalgamates, otherwise determination)

i'm gonna talk about the determination thing after finishing with the rest of points.

Hotland monsters are hypersonic, and genocide frisk is hypersonic beyond waterfall through scaling to the same feat hotland and core monsters do. no blitzing to be done there.

yes, and lvl 1 Frisk keep up with those monsters, that's exactly my point.

already mentioned genocide frisk's page doesn't mention determination at all besides being naturally as fast as themselves with high determination.

Ok, i'm gonna talk about this.

Determination thing is treated in a ridicolous way.
In the game, is never stated or even suggested that determination makes you faster, hell is not even stated that it increase your ap, durability or anything like that, in the Asgore fight you're determined and your hp still being 20, also, what the hell is being determined to begin with?, when are you determined and where not?, that's just a point that close on itself, every problem in the scaling is just D E T E R M I N A T I O N, and worst, literally never is stated that determination increases your stats, even stats itself says otherwise.

The only thing that determination clearly does is allowing you to modify spacetime saving, reseting, etc., the only case where it's used for something else is in the fight against Asriel, and even then, it doesn't increases your stats, only makes you keep living even with 0.00001hp, but your max hp still being 20 so it's something completely different.

If nothing prooves determination increases your AP, also nothing prooves that it increases your speed, and scaling gives me the reason, nothing indicates a speed gap between lvl 1 and lvl 20 Frisk, and the "determination" thing is just an excuse based in pure headcannon

I may make a CRT bout this, Undertale scaling and profiles are so ****** up.

 

[Comiphorous]

That's literally what happens with humans and mammals, we aren't "literally the same" but we have a list of things in common so we are part of the same group: Mammals, same happens with monsters, they aren't a singular species.

yeah but this isn't them sharing a common biological thing but being entirely different in a way this is them all being made of magic and nothing else in the series sharing this biological difference.

What, i finished the game like 17 times and Asgore never dodges, i mean, he doesn't dodge your attacks, which is my point.

Undyne says she could never hit him when she tried fighting him. he can dodge, but chooses not to.

What about Karmic Retribution?

yes, his poison effect. the thing that only shows up on his profile. which goes along with my point that something flowey did shouldn't go along with the entire monster race.

that's so convenently, i mean, he would need to do that so fast and he said that was just a normal attack.

why would he need time to do that? between attacks it talks about papyrus setting up 'bone attacks', meaning the attack was already finished by the time it was his turn.

Napstablook can, and he can control magic with so much precision to recreate a perfect hat.

which is why nobody else has this same thing on their page, and is selectively on for napstablook. he either has more experience with his magic, or he just naturally woke up one day and tried making a hat while depressed (which uh... is weird, ngl)

in that case there's a severe problem with the profiles, throughout the entire game there's nothing indicating you became faster, they should just be Hypersonic and dot, cause everyone is at the same level as lvl 1 Frisk in terms of speed but also at the same level as genocide route Frisk, so genocide route Frisk being faster is a nonsense.

flowey has blitzed level 1 frisk before, so clearly there's a speed different from level 1 frisk and flowey.

yes, and lvl 1 Frisk keep up with those monsters, that's exactly my point.

and flowey who scales to the same feat blitzed lvl 1 frisk. so determination can make frisk faster.

Determination thing is treated in a ridicolous way.
In the game, is never stated or even suggested that determination makes you faster, hell is not even stated that it increase your ap, durability or anything like that, in the Asgore fight you're determined and your hp still being 20, also, what the hell is being determined to begin with?, when are you determined and where not?, that's just a point that close on itself, every problem in the scaling is just D E T E R M I N A T I O N, and worst, literally never is stated that determination increases your stats, even stats itself says otherwise.

The only thing that determination clearly does is allowing you to modify spacetime saving, reseting, etc., the only case where it's used for something else is in the fight against Asriel, and even then, it doesn't increases your stats, only makes you keep living even with 0.00001hp, but your max hp still being 20 so it's something completely different.

If nothing prooves determination increases your AP, also nothing prooves that it increases your speed, and scaling gives me the reason, nothing indicates a speed gap between lvl 1 and lvl 20 Frisk, and the "determination" thing is just an excuse based in pure headcannon

I may make a CRT bout this, Undertale scaling and profiles are so ****** up.

alright, first off, yes it has suggested you getting more ap and durability. frisk literally tanks the end of the timeline from asriel through sheer determination, and gets the AP to beat the shit outta omega flowey from the souls through the same reasoning. saying it's never suggested despite the fact these two feats literally happen when they're determined makes no sense.

The speed gap between pacifist and genocide frisk exists. lvl 1 frisk can be blitzed by flowey and genocide frisk 'blitzes' (if you wanna call it that) asgore and flowey at the end of the game. saying there's no speed difference when pacifist frisk gets blitzed by people genocide frisk blitzes also makes zero sense.

 

[Comiphorous]

here

also, thats him teleporting, not time manipulation.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Jibz]

Funny bone man

Sans aint no Skulduggery Pleasant, so why did you lie?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Sans aint no Skulduggery Pleasant, so why did you lie?

I didn't say funniest

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump