Vegeta vs Garou

[The_real_cal_howard]

Experience is one thing but Garou's fighting style and his ability to almost instantly copy his opponents' techniques is far more impressive than any showings of martial arts in Dragon Ball Z.

I mean…Goku was copying techniques at 12. Though I ain’t gonna say he’s done it nearly as well as Garou. And also, muscle memory ain’t necessarily skill.
And yes. I will wholeheartedly agree that 100% of DBZ showings pale in comparison to Garou in terms of skill. But classic DB is different, with the stuff Tien and Roshi pull out. Still not as impressive, but definitely not paling in comparison.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I was wondering whether or not speed should be unequalized? Because both characters are in the FTL tier. Garou's speed is higher than 4.33c, and Vegeta's speed I think is about 1.62c. If speed was unequalized, then Vegeta would have even less of a chance to react and be more likely to be overwhelmed. But if I made Vegeta bloodlusted, then he'd just go almost straight for the Oozaru transformation, and his speed would increase by x10 I think as well. Or just leave the match as it is? Because in this one, Vegeta does have viable wincons, unlike Goku.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I was wondering whether or not speed should be unequalized? Because both characters are in the FTL tier. Garou's speed is higher than 4.33c, and Vegeta's speed I think is about 1.62c. If speed was unequalized, then Vegeta would have even less of a chance to react and be more likely to be overwhelmed. But if I made Vegeta bloodlusted, then he'd just go almost straight for the Oozaru transformation, and his speed would increase by x10 I think as well. Or just leave the match as it is? Because in this one, Vegeta does have viable wincons, unlike Goku.

Is Garou going to stand there and let Vegeta transform?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Is Garou going to stand there and let Vegeta transform?

Garou can't stop the transformation. Vegeta tried to stop Gohan from transforming during the big fight with Goku but he couldn't really do anything, and Vegeta could still probably defend himself in some way.

 

[SlendVeny]

I mean, with the skill gap, this is just Tao Pai Pai vs Stain all over again.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Oozaru’s a weird double edged sword. It costs a shitton of energy to use the Power Ball to get it off. If Vegeta uses it too late he may risk offing himself just by doing it, or at least not having the energy to do it in the first place.
Think of it this way: Vegeta starts off with 999 HP, 999 ATK, and 999 DEF. Obviously all decrease with stamina and damage. Power Ball makes all stats 9999, but it costs 400 HP, ATK, & DEF to use.

 

[SlendVeny]

Oozaru’s a weird double edged sword. It costs a shitton of energy to use the Power Ball to get it off. If Vegeta uses it too late he may risk offing himself just by doing it, or at least not having the energy to do it in the first place.
Think of it this way: Vegeta starts off with 999 HP, 999 ATK, and 999 DEF. Obviously all decrease with stamina and damage. Power Ball makes all stats 9999, but it costs 400 HP, ATK, & DEF to use.

That's not it. It's more like it scales off of his current state, not his max hp.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah that’s the better way to put it

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Right. Even if it's not a complete wash in the skill department, Garou's still got a lot more going for him, especially factoring in the dura neg, technique mimicry, and instinctive reaction, for instance. Would a bloodlusted Vegeta even register that he should transform into an Oozaru immediately?

 

[SlendVeny]

Plus, G has a bit of regen.

 

[GyroNutz]

Voting for Garou. The skill gap should be significant - Garou himself outclasses two of the most skilled characters in the verse, Bang and Bomb, who both have far more experience than Vegeta. His techniques, regen and reactive evolution allows him to take the battle on his terms, especially when coupled with Vegeta's arrogance. Also Vegeta blowing up the planet would doom himself as well since he can't survive in space.

 

[Vizer04]

Garou FRA

 

[SlendVeny]

"Oh my, a Power Level of 12,000? Finally, someone worth a grain of space-salt!"

Vegeta opens with an attempt to blitz him, but fails, and they begin their hand-to-hand until Vegeta knows he's outclassed. He leaps up and charges his Galick Gun, promising to rend the planet in two. However, Garou quickly kicks his arms, preventing the attack. He's not allowed to do that!

"Fine, fodder, let's see how you like my DIRTY FIREWORKS!!"

Garou breaks his fingers. Vegeta really needs to stop saying his attacks before making them.

Krillin looks on from the sidelines, terrified.

"Umm... Gohan... You've never seen that guy before, have you?"

"I haven't."

"Chi-Chi's gonna' kill me..."



TLDR; I didn't have time to finish, idk who wins yet.

Garou proceeds to dodge Vegeta’s every blow, and Vegeta prepares a Power Ball. Entering his Oozaru form, he throws blow after blow, with Garou dodging each of them. Garou leaps up to attack his eyes, and thereby blinds Vegeta. As Vegeta falls to the ground, Gariu lands blows all over him. As Vegeta attacks with his tail, Garou grabs it and flips him over, then tears it off, exposing Vegeta, who is incapacitated. As he prepares to finish him, Goku arrives, telling him to let Vegeta live. Long story short, he joins the Z-Fighters.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I think I'm also going to vote for Garou since he'd likely be able to pummel Vegeta before he'd have the chance to activate the Oozaru transformation, and the AP gap isn't large enough for Vegeta to withstand Garou's techniques targeting internal organs unscathed. With my vote, grace has now begun.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

What's even the logic for Garou's skill being better? Goku, who Vegeta pretty evenly swaps hands with in skill, scales above statements and feats such as this, this, this, and this when younger and inferior to his end of Dragon Ball and Z self. Roshi who Goku battled evenly when younger and worse as a fighter casually obliterated Man Wolf who's a 30th degree Kenpo belt. Far above anything in real martial arts and yet he's a joke to Roshi specifically in skill.

Those alone are as good or significantly better in fact than anything Garou would have for mimicry, mastery, degrees of skill compared to real styles and learning. Really don't see why Garou is given better skill in hand to hand.

Vegeta=Saiyan Saga>EoDB>second tournament>first tournament Goku

He can reflect, sure, and negate durability but ki can literally reduce you to atoms which would be FAR superior to bone-breaking shockwaves and organ pulverizing energy attacks.

Garou also blatantly hit a wall with Saitama so at this stage his reactive evolution is either very minor or he reached a plateau for now without God's help.

Vegeta's also got AP and dura that's superior to a decent degree, especially if he has to try.

Garou's really only got his regeneration, stamina and maybe God if Vegeta beats him into depression.

Edit: Forgot speed
Garou>>>4.33x by now
Vegeta (18,000)>KKx2=2x Goku (pl 8,000+)>>>>>Raditz (1,200-1,500) who dodged rel+ attacks (.54 c) from Piccolo and Goku (408 and 416).
With Kaioken making speed linear at this point of the story these increases are likely linear putting Vegeta anywhere from 5.76 c to 38.46 c depending where you start the chain.

 

[Kin201]

Vegeta=Saiyan Saga>EoDB>second tournament>first tournament Goku

Well, I could argue that Vegeta isn't as skilled as Goku. Let us say if Goku's PL is 8000 and I somehow have a PL of 9000, then I could swap hands with Goku as well. I don't know how to put it, but it seems like that is how DB works. And of course, it doesn't mean I'm as skilled as Goku.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

I would say that he's relative. Goku is likely better, sure, as whenever he is above Vegeta he defeats him pretty solidly throughout most of the series but he's relative enough to engage in hand to hand with him consistently. If there was a huge gap in skill, it'd be more like when Super Saiyan Gogeta and Broly fought. Equal in power but Gogeta easily defeated him in CQC.

Though that said, Kami and Popo consider the Goku who scales to all those linked feats to be garbage and he surpassed them in every way by the time he fights Piccolo.

So even if Goku's better, it's not so monstrous that Garou with lesser degrees of frankly everything I can think of skill related would beat Vegeta up.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well, I could argue that Vegeta isn't as skilled as Goku. Let us say if Goku's PL is 8000 and I somehow have a PL of 9000, then I could swap hands with Goku as well. I don't know how to put it, but it seems like that is how DB works. And of course, it doesn't mean I'm as skilled as Goku.

Goku has stated verbatim that vegeta surpasses him in every way during the saiyan saga.

 

[Kin201]

Goku has stated verbatim that vegeta surpasses him in every way during the saiyan saga.

We don't know that he also included "skill". In most cases, when someone said that, they meant their power and speed are inferior. But as I said, if you have a higher PL than Goku, you could swap hands with him, and it doesn't mean you are as skilled as Goku. Vegeta's PL was indeed higher than Goku at that point.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Here is the scan.
https://cdn-manga.com/files/WP-manga/data/3011/98777e337bb88971f4c79d13c1aac213/11.jpg
Also, I don't wanna have a skill debate but you guys can read some of Goku's skill feats in the intelligence section of this profile.

Spoiler: G

Goku isn't bright academically but he is a genius when it comes to anything combat related. He was trained by master martial artist such as Son Gohan, Muten Roshi, Kaio, and even Whis. When he was a kid, he was capable of copying techniques even master martial artist found difficult to learn most of the time by seeing them only once, such as when learned the kamehameha after seeing it once, a feat which took roshi, the best martial artist in the world, 50 years.[73] He can easily beat martial arts masters who can beat other master martial artists without getting tagged once, such as korin who roshi couldn't tag him for 3 years to get water,[74] a feat that took Goku only 3 days and then surpassed korin,[75] or king chappa who won the budokai without getting tagged once.[76] He is able to make up martial arts on the spot such as when he created the mad fist,[77] or when he recreated King Chappa's martial arts by simply watching him use it once.
He is an incredibly acrobatic fighter who is able to perform skillful manoeuvres such as falling from great heights and landing safely by swing on branches or landing on his toes,[5] or changing his momentum instantly such as getting punched and sent flying then using that momentum to lauch a counter attack,[78] he learned how to prevent any wasted movements so that even after an intense fight he will not be fatigued at all.[79] He is an incredibly analytical fighter always looking ahead in a fight and conserving his energy.[80]

He can deduce fighters strength level and skill by merely watching them fight while heavily suppressed such as when he figured out tien was a match for roshi[81] or when he saw piccolo fight fodder and accurately deduced his strength,[82] the latter did the same to him.[83] He is able to figure out the flaws of the SSJ forms and deduce that SSJ G1 is the best SSJ grade and mastered it.[84]

He can learn but also improve techniques sometimes mid fight to suit the situation he's in for example when he copied roshi's afterimage bluff and improved it to beat roshi with his own technique[77] or when he used the kamehameha to boost himself mid air[85] or even with his feet.[86] He was so skilled that he matched cell in combat and the latter even praised him for his ability[87] despite the fact that Cell is a combination of him as well as many other strong fighters on his level and knows all of their abilities and techniques including their weaknesses.[88]

He was praised by Beerus as a genius for being so experienced so as to use ultra Instinct unconsciously.[89] He mastered ultra instinct in less than 48 minutes,[46] a feat that destroyers, who live for hundreds of millions of years, cannot easily perform.[90] He's able to read an opponents intentions and predict the movements of Hit, who has 1000 years of assassination experience, during time stop.[91] He can fight opponents much faster and stronger than him such as Granolah[92] or Gas and keep up with them via sheer skill[93] the former being able to one shot him.[94] He was able to create such minute movements so as to avoid Granolah's pressure point attacks from hitting his vitals which could defeat him in one attack since he couldn't dodge them completely.[92]

We don't know that he also included "skill". In most cases, when someone said that, they meant their power and speed are inferior. But as I said, if you have a higher PL than Goku, you could swap hands with him, and it doesn't mean you are as skilled as Goku. Vegeta's PL was indeed higher than Goku at that point.

No it literally includes it. He states that he surpasses him in every way you can think.

 

[Kin201]

Here is the scan.
https://cdn-manga.com/files/WP-manga/data/3011/98777e337bb88971f4c79d13c1aac213/11.jpg. No it literally includes it. He states that he surpasses him in every way you can think.

For some reason, I can't see the scan. But you are taking that statement out of context. "Power and Speed" are what Goku highlighted about Vegeta. In what way does he state that Vegeta is a better martial artist than him? And again, Vegeta's PL was higher than Goku's.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

For now I'll vote Vegeta for now, for reasons above.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

For some reason, I can't see the scan. But you are taking that statement out of context. "Power and Speed" are what Goku highlighted about Vegeta. In what way does he state that Vegeta is a better martial artist than him? And again, Vegeta's PL was higher than Goku's.

That's not the scan and I don't have a computer to use imgur to make the scan work dammit.
The scan has Goku telling krillin to spare vegeta and he says that vegeta surpassed him in every way you (krillin) can think.

 

[Kin201]

That's not the scan and I don't have a computer to use imgur to make the scan work dammit.
The scan has Goku telling krillin to spare vegeta and he says that vegeta surpassed him in every way you (krillin) can think.

I know, but what Goku was amazed by Vegeta in the fight were his power and speed. You can see he keeps telling how Vegeta is "stronger and faster" than him. He didn't mention Vegeta being more skilled than him.

Even in this scan of yours, Goku was referring to Vegeta's power and speed, precisely his Great Ape form, which is what stomped Goku. He doesn't exactly mention Vegeta is more skilled than him.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I know, but what Goku was amazed by Vegeta in the fight were his power and speed. You can see he keeps telling how Vegeta is "stronger and faster" than him. He didn't mention Vegeta being more skilled than him.

Even in this scan of yours, Goku was referring to Vegeta's power and speed, precisely his Great Ape form, which is what stomped Goku. He doesn't exactly mention Vegeta is more skilled than him.

That's a different translation. In the translation I sent, he heavily implies that vegeta is also more skilled than him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He can reflect, sure, and negate durability but ki can literally reduce you to atoms which would be FAR superior to bone-breaking shockwaves and organ pulverizing energy attacks

Trunks reducing Frieza to atoms is generally considered hyperbolic considering no one until the Buu Saga had showings of that scale. You can also visually see the remaining chunks of Frieza after Trunks blast him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's a different translation

What chapter(s) do the scans come from? It's not hard to check the raws or alternate translations.

Vegeta pretty evenly swaps hands with in skill, scales above statements and feats such as this, this, this, and this when younger and inferior to his end of Dragon Ball and Z self. Roshi who Goku battled evenly when younger and worse as a fighter casually obliterated Man Wolf who's a 30th degree Kenpo belt. Far above anything in real martial arts and yet he's a joke to Roshi specifically in skill.

Those alone are as good or significantly better in fact than anything Garou would have for mimicry, mastery, degrees of skill compared to real styles and learning. Really don't see why Garou is given better skill in hand to hand

Honestly all of the examples you gave Garou either also has or they're not nearly as good as you're implying.

The first two scans are just Goku copying techniques, something Gaoru can do as well. The third doesn't amount to much and the last one was Goku getting clones by Drunken Fist until he used a weird style that freaked out Roshi.

The 30th Kenpo Belt also isn't as good as you're implying. Kenpo has different schools with different belt degrees. Some go absurdly high with rankings IRL as well, but that doesn't mean any of them are better than other fighters with "only" a 7th degree belt or something.

Garou is at worst even with Goku, if not much better since he does much more explicit martial arts techniques other than punch really hard.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Trunks reducing Frieza to atoms is generally considered hyperbolic considering no one until the Buu Saga had showings of that scale. You can also visually see the remaining chunks of Frieza after Trunks blast him.

That's not how hyperbole works. And unless you think ki randomly got more potent, that doesn't make any sense. Where? You mean before it's done? Cause if not, there's nothing but smoke when Trunks kills him. And vaporization is still FAR better than bone breaking or organ targeting.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Honestly all of the examples you gave Garou either also has or they're not nearly as good as you're implying.

The first two scans are just Goku copying techniques, something Gaoru can do as well. The third doesn't amount to much and the last one was Goku getting clones by Drunken Fist until he used a weird style that freaked out Roshi.

The 30th Kenpo Belt also isn't as good as you're implying. Kenpo has different schools with different belt degrees. Some go absurdly high with rankings IRL as well, but that doesn't mean any of them are better than other fighters with "only" a 7th degree belt or something.

Garou is at worst even with Goku, if not much better since he does much more explicit martial arts techniques other than punch really hard.

Garou has WORSE versions at best.

Garou's is significantly worse. He learned Fist of Flowing Water for instance, and took dozens of near death power ups and reactive evolutions to even approach Bang in skill, while Goku could do that exact thing with a glance for the Kamehameha (50 years of ki training) and Roshi's other techniques. Watchdog Man's moves he only used once in a state where Genos was making fun of him and he didn't have any other options. The fact even a gorilla like Darkshine was able to tell him how bad he was compared to Bang speaks volumes. Goku's just better at it. As a child. When he gets to Kami, that's called complete garbage. And then he gets even better.

Highest belt degree in kenpo is 10 for every source I can find. If you have higher, go ahead and post it. And seeing how belt degree is usually determined by degree of mastery, I'd say it's a pretty good metric.

That's an argument amounting to "well I don't see it so it doesn't exist" when it's been established that Goku's early feats are as good or better than anything Garou has, and he only gets better and more refined as he gets older. Goku is significantly better than Garou by any quantifiable metric of skill. Even at 15 years old.

Literally everything Garou has Goku's done, better, more efficiently, with less preparation and evolution to help him even in original Dragon Ball. And he only gets better as he gets older. The only thing Garou has is attack reflection.

 

[Therefir]

Standard Ki attacks having durability negating properties is literally headcanon, Trunks destroyed Frieza because he was so much stronger than him, simple as that.

Meanwhile Garou's RASRF can actually shatter the bones of people comparable to him, defeating Bang with a mere graze of his fist.

It has been stated on multiple occasions that Bang is at the peak of the martial arts world.

Not sure why someone would think having mastery in kenpo is somehow comparable to that, real life martial arts pale in comparison to what people can do in OPM, and the ways they can move and enhance their attacks.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

How? Reducing something to atoms is inherently a far better durability negation feat. Trunks destroyed Frieza into ashes at worst, atoms verbatim. Garou can't do that, period. The only headcanon here is arguing that the source is wrong.

Bang was weakening and Garou growing stronger, so no, not comparable. Especially since the wiki stupidly marks Bang at city and Garou not even 2 chapters later one shots all the Cadre and then fights Plat S and Flashy who are island. That's not skill, that's AP.

Okay, so is everyone at the World Tournaments. That's kinda the entire point.

Not really. OPM techniques scale above, given the Superfight statements, but without their hacks what really is special or so much better? The degree of difference that they scale above in skill is massively in Dragon Ball's favor.

 

[Therefir]

Sounds like flowery language, just like Star stating she would reduce Shiggy to atoms.

And it's not accepted anyway, since Buu only has Mid-High regeneration and nowhere in the profiles nor on the Ki page is mentioned these supposed atomization properties. They don't even have resistance to Matter Manipulation like this would suggest.

I'm also pretty sure that several people have tried to give atomization to Db characters and have been denied.

Not to mention the thousands of matches in which such power has never been used.

 

[Therefir]

This match most likely will be obsolete anyway, but I have no doubt that with similar stats Garou far outperforms in fighting skill, abilities and hax.

And stamina as well given that Vegeta was unable to keep fighting after someone broke his arm or when a beam perforated his stomach.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Let's also not pretend ki mastery isn't also a skill feat within itself which is stated verbatim.

Also called spiritual, if you REALLY think bone break somehow>atomization.

Also did a little digging and Chaoitzu does something pretty similar to Krillin, again in the second world tournament. Probably even better given the nonphysical means. And Krillin resists it with some difficulty. And by this point Goku should be at or above this level so, not sure why organ attacks is so impressive.

Define flowery language. You mean how she, the person with law manipulation, was using atomic bombs that have atomic explosions caused by splitting atoms to do so? Why would that be flowery? She has law manipulation. She can just literally decide that to be the case. What is the issue?

Sounds like the pages need updating since these are all just stated things, verbatim, and you have no valid counter argument against them, so that doesn't matter.

Okay, what's the logic? Because mods don't like Dragon Ball? What?

Sounds more like the wiki needs to do better with this series then.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

This match most likely will be obsolete anyway, but I have no doubt that with similar stats Garou far outperforms in fighting skill, abilities and hax.

He gets one shot if he at all presses Vegeta and he decides to use Oozaru, which Garou isn't powerful enough to stop nor would go for the tail.

Okay your argument for that is....what? Because of this ridiculous downplay that a couple Google searches and the manga itself prove for my favor?

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That's not a stamina feat, that's due to regeneration.

Also untrue, Vegeta did keep fighting but 18 broke his other arm and his pelvis, plus he was losing stamina using Super Saiyan anyway. Wouldn't really be the case for his base form, as even some of his ki in the false moon would last over an hour.

Unclear how long Garou's been going at it, but it's probably a few days with periods of rest here and there. He would be better in stamina but that's not the reason.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Just pointing that Trunks reducted Freezer to atoms because AP gap, not Dura Neg

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

The fact ki can reduce you to atoms is dura neg inherently. You can torch a rock with a flame thrower all you want, it's not reducing down to individual atoms. AP gap between them would also be lesser than the gap between Oozaru Vegeta and Garou.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

The fact ki can reduce you to atoms is dura neg inherently. You can torch a rock with a flame thrower all you want, it's not reducing down to individual atoms. AP gap between them would also be lesser than the gap between Oozaru Vegeta and Garou.

That's because a flamethrower has not an AP gap big enough to destroy the rock down to atoms. Put a little rock against a Supernova, let's see if it destroys it down to atoms It's kinda exaggerated, ik, but it works as an example

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That's because a flamethrower has not an AP gap big enough to destroy the rock down to atoms. Put a little rock against a Supernova, let's see if it destroys it down to atoms It's kinda exaggerated, ik, but it works as an example

That's more like a DBS character vs a Z character but okay.