Possible upgrade for Akuto Sai?

[Ayano_]

He is Low 1-C, likely 1-A


I don't think you understood what I'm talking about or maybe I'm misunderstanding you lol

I am talking about the stories being finite but them having infinite combinations, not the stories as structures being finite. Maybe I'm just bad at explaining stuff

My bad, I misunderstood what you were trying to say

 

[zero0031]

He is Low 1-C, likely 1-A


I don't think you understood what I'm talking about or maybe I'm misunderstanding you lol

I am talking about the stories being finite but them having infinite combinations, not the stories as structures being finite. Maybe I'm just bad at explaining stuff

Wtf is that, his feat is too solid to 1-A, can't belive that shit

 

[Ayano_]

Wtf is that, his feat is too solid to 1-A, can't belive that shit

Well vsbw puts it at likely because they’re not too sure if he actually succeeded in creating every story. Although there are a few sources backing it up that akuto created everything, but it isn’t concrete, thats why vsbw puts it at likely.


Tbh, the best solution to clear this contentious topic up is to ask the creator on twitter if he actually succeeded or not, since he is answering questions about daimao anyway.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Well vsbw puts it at likely because they’re not too sure if he actually succeeded in creating every story. Although there are a few sources backing it up that akuto created everything, but it isn’t concrete, thats why vsbw puts it at likely.


Tbh, the best solution to clear this contentious topic up is to ask the creator on twitter if he actually succeeded or not, since he is answering questions about daimao anyway.

No, thats not it. The Likely is because they arent sure he can create every story. That's why it even lists why he could create every story in the explanation blog. It's not about him writing every story, it's about if he can. And we'll obviously he can since that's the point which means he should be a solid 1-A in the Afterlife.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Er...no? It's because the system he destroyed/transcended was at least a layer of fiction. He's rated the way he is because we don't know if the system he transcended is the same as the fiction formed which had infinite amount of layers as part of it.

“I get that, but what does it mean for me to be satisfied?”
“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

The likely comes from the reality being fiction, and the after life that transcends it in turn being fiction, thus they likely have infinite layers each. This, to me though, seems like head canon as there was clearly only one type of fiction being referenced with the afterlife just being one of the many levels of fiction.

Also, by creating every story, do you mean when he created all possible worlds? I'm pretty sure that was just 2-A, since it never affected any of the layers, not even the afterlife.

So I disagree with the solid tiering system. Honestly, I think the likely 1-A is too much. It should have been possibly or even removed all together.

 

[Ayano_]

Er...no? It's because the system he destroyed/transcended was at least a layer of fiction. He's rated the way he is because we don't know if the system he transcended is the same as the fiction formed which had infinite amount of layers as part of it.


The likely comes from the reality being fiction, and the after life that transcends it in turn being fiction, thus they likely have infinite layers each. This, to me though, seems like head canon as there was clearly only one type of fiction being referenced with the afterlife just being one of the many levels of fiction.

Also, by creating every story, do you mean when he created all possible worlds? I'm pretty sure that was just 2-A, since it never affected any of the layers, not even the afterlife.

So I disagree with the solid tiering system. Honestly, I think the likely 1-A is too much. It should have been possibly or even removed all together.

In actuality the stories are just possible worlds because they are extrapolated as such. And imo saying that creating all possible worlds is 2-A is a blasphemous take. Ofcourse some verses have a very weird way of explaining what is logically feasible or “possible” in a verse but with the right context on it, It can scale very high in my book, And im talking about tier 0, As discussed in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-...tem-standards-1-a-and-up.135076/#post-4677546 In the case of daimao, What is considered “possible” is based on what can be written, so it doesn’t matter how far sided or how illogical the standing is as long as it can be described in text it has and will already happened within the verse which those said notions layered infinitely, In my opinion, This alone should scale daimao very high and im thinking about a thread for this later, But for now. Ill digress.

Edit: The reason why they have it at likely 1-A is because if akuto actually succeeded then some stories should atleast contain an infinite hierarchy because the original world already contains one.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Er...no? It's because the system he destroyed/transcended was at least a layer of fiction. He's rated the way he is because we don't know if the system he transcended is the same as the fiction formed which had infinite amount of layers as part of it.


The likely comes from the reality being fiction, and the after life that transcends it in turn being fiction, thus they likely have infinite layers each. This, to me though, seems like head canon as there was clearly only one type of fiction being referenced with the afterlife just being one of the many levels of fiction.

Also, by creating every story, do you mean when he created all possible worlds? I'm pretty sure that was just 2-A, since it never affected any of the layers, not even the afterlife.

So I disagree with the solid tiering system. Honestly, I think the likely 1-A is too much. It should have been possibly or even removed all together.

This is the thing that has bugged me for a bit. I will either answer later or attempt to make my blog when I'm done with other stuff. Though just letting you know there simply isn't any such transcendence. It really should just be 1-A. Low 1-C simply doesn't make sense if you use the justification of him moving to the next system IMO. The simple fact is that if Akuto can create any possible story in the afterlife this includes the infinite hierarchy present in the cosmology, in which the afterlife is separate. But that's for a later time.

 

[CosmicWreck]

In actuality the stories are just possible worlds because they are extrapolated as such. And imo saying that creating all possible worlds is 2-A is a blasphemous take. Ofcourse some verses have a very weird way of explaining what is logically feasible or “possible” in a verse but with the right context on it, It can scale very high in my book, And im talking about tier 0, As discussed in this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-...tem-standards-1-a-and-up.135076/#post-4677546 In the case of daimao, What is considered “possible” is based on what can be written, so it doesn’t matter how far sided or how illogical the standing is as long as it can be described in text it has and will already happened within the verse which those said notions layered infinitely, In my opinion, This alone should scale daimao very high and im thinking about a thread for this later, But for now. Ill digress.

Edit: The reason why they have it at likely 1-A is because if akuto actually succeeded then some stories should atleast contain an infinite hierarchy because the original world already contains one.

The thread you linked is still ongoing. I mean, I already knew about it but I agree with Don'ttalk in that this kind of thinking is basically just No Limits Fallacy dressed up in a fancy suit. Even if it wasn't, since the thread is not yet concluded it has no bearing on this conversation.

Unless those possibilities were specifically stated to include the other layers I don't see how it is at all blasphemous to assume they are on the same level existence, especially considering they never affected the afterlife until Akuto summoned the Extra Universal Gods, nor are they particularly stated to be any less or more fictious than each other.

I'm pretty sure the original world did not have an infinite hierarchy. Not indefinitely as you're speaking. I don't even think TLOI was even referring to the afterlife when it mentioned the infinite layers. Please provide quotes.

This is the thing that has bugged me for a bit. I will either answer later or attempt to make my blog when I'm done with other stuff. Though just letting you know there simply isn't any such transcendence. It really should just be 1-A. Low 1-C simply doesn't make sense if you use the justification of him moving to the next system IMO. The simple fact is that if Akuto can create any possible story in the afterlife this includes the infinite hierarchy present in the cosmology, in which the afterlife is separate. But that's for a later time.

Already addressed and it seems like head canon to me, but sure I will hold my suspension of disbelief until after you've compiled the blog.

 

[Timeless]

Suggsverse has entered the chat

its not omnipotent, its bEyOnD oMnIpOtEnT

 

[Ayano_]

The thread you linked is still ongoing. I mean, I already knew about it but I agree with Don'ttalk in that this kind of thinking is basically just No Limits Fallacy dressed up in a fancy suit. Even if it wasn't, since the thread is not yet concluded it has no bearing on this conversation.

Unless those possibilities were specifically stated to include the other layers I don't see how it is at all blasphemous to assume they are on the same level existence, especially considering they never affected the afterlife until Akuto summoned the Extra Universal Gods, nor are they particularly stated to be any less or more fictious than each other.

I'm pretty sure the original world did not have an infinite hierarchy. Not indefinitely as you're speaking. I don't even think TLOI was even referring to the afterlife when it mentioned the infinite layers. Please provide quotes.


Already addressed and it seems like head canon to me, but sure I will hold my suspension of disbelief until after you've compiled the blog.

The no limit fallacy that donttalkdt has applied was on the math, Second applying a no limit fallacy on the possible worlds is a kind of no brainer, If there is given enough evidence and context on how these possible worlds work then there should be no reason not to call out the NLF, If its specifically stated that the verse’s logic is based of what can be written regardless of their parameters in reality, We can safely assume that something like “An infinite hierarchy” Which is already present in the original cosmology and written down(And no Im not equivocating for the afterlife being 1-A) Then we can come to the conclusion that in atleast one world this thing is present. Hence why I already explained that the context given on how these possible worlds need to be strict. Saying that it would be a no limit fallacy is completely weird since an infinite hierarchy is a logical possibility that could occur,


Second, The afterlife is right now considered Low complex. “You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.” this was stated after Akuto reached the afterlife, Because the afterlife transcends the virtual dimension(which is rn considered 4D by vsbw) The afterlife is actually right now considered one of the lowest layers in the hierarchy, The hierarchy eleborates on how akuto ascended in a higher layer(meta fictional transcendence)(afterlife) And that there are an infinite layers beyond that. Im not really equivocating for 1-A afterlife.

Back on the possible worlds subject. How is the NLF applicable here in any way? Why would it be restricted if we’re using logical possibilities as the basis for these worlds. Ur restricting logically possible scenarios to only those that are within the range of 5D or less than infinite amount of dimensional levels, when thats simply just describing a nomological possibility, If the character creates the whole quantity of every world which is predicated of the description this verse gives for what is possible in the verse then its perfectly fine.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Back on the possible worlds subject. How is the NLF applicable here in any way? Why would it be restricted if we’re using logical possibilities as the basis for these worlds. Ur restricting logically possible scenarios to only those that are within the range of 5D or less than infinite amount of dimensional levels, when thats simply just describing a nomological possibility, If the character creates the whole quantity of every world which is predicated of the description this verse gives for what is possible in the verse then its perfectly fine.

Because we don't use that argument for other verses ("everything can happen" multiverse kind") making it double standard + we know for a fact that he didn't make all of them (said at the start of part 3 or 4).

 

[CosmicWreck]

The no limit fallacy that donttalkdt has applied was on the math,

I don't understand where you got that idea.

'Beyond the amount of evidence they have drawn from'?

. Yes, we assume standard mathematics exist in universes. Guess what else we do assume to exist? Standard logic.

That's generally the issue here. You are basically arguing that the standards of reasoning get less strict as we get to higher tier. That what would be a NLF to a 3D character isn't one for a 1-A one anymore because they are already strong.
It's the opposite. Requirements get stricter as the tier increases.


Not at all horrible comparison, since we had long since decided that Omnipotence without feats isn't tiering relevant, regardless of how well explained the concept is. It would need to include specific explanations regarding certain levels of infinity to matter, but then it is all about those explanations not about the omnipotence in itself.

Magic Gods in ToAru come to mind. Their power covers all possibilities, to the point that the main barrier Othinus had to overcome to gain 'full power' (i.e. practical use of her abilities) was that being able to do literally everything logically implies also being able to fail. So she had to make a device that limits her power to success.

Don'tTalk disagreed with the basic idea that what was either mathematically or logically possible has no bearing on a particularly feat's tiering unless they were explicitly dealing with higher infinities or Reality>fiction differences. or stuff that are already included as existent concepts in the verse.

Second applying a no limit fallacy on the possible worlds is a kind of no brainer, If there is given enough evidence and context on how these possible worlds work then there should be no reason not to call out the NLF, If its specifically stated that the verse’s logic is based of what can be written regardless of their parameters in reality, We can safely assume that something like “An infinite hierarchy” Which is already present in the original cosmology and written down(And no Im not equivocating for the afterlife being 1-A) Then we can come to the conclusion that in atleast one world this thing is present. Hence why I already explained that the context given on how these possible worlds need to be strict. Saying that it would be a no limit fallacy is completely weird since an infinite hierarchy is a logical possibility that could occur,

A logical possibility has no bearing on the fact that it was never stated to have happened and thus, using occam's razor, probably did not happen. You are over complicating the matter, I feel.

Second, The afterlife is right now considered Low complex. “You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.” this was stated after Akuto reached the afterlife, Because the afterlife transcends the virtual dimension(which is rn considered 4D by vsbw) The afterlife is actually right now considered one of the lowest layers in the hierarchy, The hierarchy eleborates on how akuto ascended in a higher layer(meta fictional transcendence)(afterlife) And that there are an infinite layers beyond that. Im not really equivocating for 1-A afterlife.

The current ratings are based on Reality>Fiction layers, it has nothing to do with the transcendence of the cosmological construct you are assuming tbh, especially considering the real world basically stops after the solar system and higher dimensions of insignificant size are usually considered to be incompatible with our tiering system. After some discussion it was decided that the size of the realities involved had no bearing on the statistic.

Back on the possible worlds subject. How is the NLF applicable here in any way? Why would it be restricted if we’re using logical possibilities as the basis for these worlds. Ur restricting logically possible scenarios to only those that are within the range of 5D or less than infinite amount of dimensional levels, when thats simply just describing a nomological possibility, If the character creates the whole quantity of every world which is predicated of the description this verse gives for what is possible in the verse then its perfectly fine.

Because said logical possibility was never implied, nor was there any hierarchy established during the creation. It's honestly something that is assumed, and not supported by anything in the text save for the most exaggerated of the vaguest of descriptions.

 

[Ayano_]

Because we don't use that argument for other verses ("everything can happen" multiverse kind") making it double standard + we know for a fact that he didn't make all of them (said at the start of part 3 or 4).

Hence why I said that there should be a good and stark explanation on how these possible worlds work, But fair then I disagree with this, But I doubt my arguments are gonna change anything in this site since I recently joined vsbw.

 

[Ayano_]

I don't understand where you got that idea.






Don'tTalk disagreed with the basic idea that what was either mathematically or logically possible has no bearing on a particularly feat's tiering unless they were explicitly dealing with higher infinities or Reality>fiction differences. or stuff that are already included as existent concepts in the verse.

A logical possibility has no bearing on the fact that it was never stated to have happened and thus, using occam's razor, probably did not happen. You are over complicating the matter, I feel.

The current ratings are based on Reality>Fiction layers, it has nothing to do with the transcendence of the cosmological construct you are assuming tbh, especially considering the real world basically stops after the solar system and higher dimensions of insignificant size are usually considered to be incompatible with our tiering system. After some discussion it was decided that the size of the realities involved had no bearing on the statistic.

Because said logical possibility was never implied, nor was there any hierarchy established during the creation. It's honestly something that is assumed, and not supported by anything in the text save for the most exaggerated of the vaguest of descriptions.

A logical possibility has no bearing on the fact that it was never stated to have happened

this really isn’t answering or refutaing anything tho, Something does not have to be outright stated, Implications are things too. and I feel like you’re misconstruing the notion of how these possible worlds work, These worlds are based of logical possibilities which are predicated of whats logical in that said verse, And im not really over complicating anything at al lol.

Higher dimensions are a logical possibility in the verse - therefore they are present in Atleast one of these possible worlds.

Simple as that^

The current ratings are based on Reality>Fiction layers, it has nothing to do with the transcendence of the cosmological construct you are assuming tbh, especially considering the real world basically stops after the solar system and higher dimensions of insignificant size are usually considered to be incompatible with our tiering system. After some discussion it was decided that the size of the realities involved had no bearing on the statistic.

I don’t find the correlation between this and my arguments.


And im not saying that we should accept some shitty statements like “All possible worlds” With no context nor stark explanation. My whole proposition and point here is that aslong as the logicality in the verse and what is possible in the verse is explained well with even them explaining these parameters and them giving examples that it should be perfectly acceptable for these kind of things, Such as the explanation I gave above^^

Higher dimensions are a logical possibility in the verse - therefore they are present in Atleast one of these possible worlds.

Because said logical possibility was never implied, nor was there any hierarchy established during the creation. It's honestly something that is assumed, and not supported by anything in the text save for the most exaggerated of the vaguest of descriptions.

this feels like an ad nauseam.

some things don’t need to be outright stated like I said, With the case of possible worlds, as long as the notion of what is possible in the verse is explained well, with ofcourse logical possibilities as a basis for these possible worlds and it being coherent to higher dimensional things related, I think it should be perfectly fine to accept such things like infinite dimensional hierarchy’s(and this is a huge lowball)

But it seems like no one is gonna accept my proposition unfortunately.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Taking all logical possible verses to mean everything that would apply to is a NLF.
Taking it to include a thing that was actually mentioned to exist in the verse would be fine, though. (just like with the downstreamer Tier 0 upgrade back in the day, but more direct)

we know for a fact that he didn't make all of them (said at the start of part 3 or 4).

Eh, we know he didn't finish when he sequentially made them. When he released the walls and made them so that they fell into chaos and no story could exist anymore, that isn't necessarily true. He needed some time to make a story again after that and only then the sequential creation started.
Although it ultimately doesn't matter, as the novel does indicate that he could create them all anyways.

The current ratings are fine IMO.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Eh, we know he didn't finish when he sequentially made them. When he released the walls and made them so that they fell into chaos and no story could exist anymore, that isn't necessarily true. He needed some time to make a story again after that and only then the sequential creation started.
Although it ultimately doesn't matter, as the novel does indicate that he could create them all anyways. The current ratings are fine IMO.

The statement was said when the walls were already released tho. They kept getting made but just ad infinitum.

And yeah. Too lazy to go on another 10 pages debate (especially when we have verse with similar problem but worse).

 

[DontTalkDT]

The statement was said when the walls were already released tho. They kept getting made but just ad infinitum.

There is this statement

But still, I begin the story, no, what comes before it.

Mizuki, Shoutarou. Demon King Daimaou: Volume 13 (S.66). J-Novel Club. Kindle-Version.

after the borders are released and chaos errupted.
Then later this:

I mistake again and again. And beyond that. There is a story. Thus, reality became reality.

Mizuki, Shoutarou. Demon King Daimaou: Volume 13 (S.68). J-Novel Club. Kindle-Version.

Basically, after the chapter started and the whole chaos and no-shared-stories-thing happened, there is a part of the chapter where there are actually no stories happening.

That's why I make a distinction between the chaotic story creation before that and the ordered and controlled one after.


But yeah, better to not get into this... since the original subject of the thread was finished, should I close this?

 

[Ayano_]

Taking all logical possible verses to mean everything that would apply to is a NLF.
Taking it to include a thing that was actually mentioned to exist in the verse would be fine, though. (just like with the downstreamer Tier 0 upgrade back in the day, but more direct)

Eh, we know he didn't finish when he sequentially made them. When he released the walls and made them so that they fell into chaos and no story could exist anymore, that isn't necessarily true. He needed some time to make a story again after that and only then the sequential creation started.
Although it ultimately doesn't matter, as the novel does indicate that he could create them all anyways.

The current ratings are fine IMO.

I genuinely can’t see how the NLF can be applied but alright, And we’re already on this topic, so since akuto can create every story like you said wouldn’t this actually scale the stories pretty high? Since the original Cosmology has an infinite layered hierarchy, and akuto being capable of created every logically coherent possible story, since there's an inf layered hierarchy present he must've created at least one story with an inf layered hierarchy. Original hierarchy contains every story which would encompass that singular one with another inf layered hierarchy. Therefore making the stories high outer? Just my thoughts on it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I genuinely can’t see how the NLF can be applied but alright, And we’re already on this topic, so since akuto can create every story like you said wouldn’t this actually scale the stories pretty high? Since the original Cosmology has an infinite layered hierarchy, and akuto being capable of created every logically coherent possible story, since there's an inf layered hierarchy present he must've created at least one story with an inf layered hierarchy. Original hierarchy contains every story which would encompass that singular one with another inf layered hierarchy. Therefore making the stories high outer? Just my thoughts on it.

Yes, but that is what makes him 1-A. For high 1-A you would need two infinite hierarchies.

 

[Ayano_]

Yes, but that is what makes him 1-A. For high 1-A you would need two infinite hierarchies.

Yea I know, Pretty sure I already said that, Original cosmo got an infinite hierarchy, He created every logical coherent story which means he at least made another infinite hierachy, Stories grow to encompass each other, since the original hierarchy is present in every story and, Stories grow to encompass each other, So this means that the infinite hierarchy akuto created would encompass that singular one with another inf layered hierarchy. this means its high outer due to the fact there are 2 infinite hierarchy’s. idk if you misunderstood it or its just that Im bad at explaining it lol

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yea I know, Pretty sure I already said that, Original cosmo got an infinite hierarchy, He created every logical coherent story which means he at least made another infinite hierachy, Stories grow to encompass each other, since the original hierarchy is present in every story and, Stories grow to encompass each other, So this means that the infinite hierarchy akuto created would encompass that singular one with another inf layered hierarchy. this means its high outer due to the fact there are 2 infinite hierarchy’s. idk if you misunderstood it or its just that Im bad at explaining it lol

But Akuto isn't above the infinite hierarchy of the original cosmology? At least not as far as we know.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

But Akuto isn't above the infinite hierarchy of the original cosmology? At least not as far as we know.

Why not? It would still fall under all possibilities, no? We also have more statements from the author like this which can be used as backup evidence.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/933020009435897859/972252080939077652/author_statement12355.png

To me, it seems Akuto can scale to anything or above anything in the DKD cosmology except for TLOI. Hopefully, I'm not misunderstanding what you're talking about.

 

[Ayano_]

But Akuto isn't above the infinite hierarchy of the original cosmology? At least not as far as we know.

He was by default above it after creating them all, or he scales to the highest notion of it, whether interpretation suits you the best. So basically to simplify it, Infinite layered hierarchy<this gets encompassed by Another inf hierarchy(the one akuto made) due to the fact Akuto created every logically structured story. So since there is an infinite layered hierarchy present he mustve created one too. And we know that stories grow to encompass each other, Meaning that the original one gets encompassed by Akuto’s, therefore high outer or two infinite hierarchy’s like you said.

 

[Ayano_]

Why not? It would still fall under all possibilities, no? We also have more statements from the author like this which can be used as backup evidence.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/933020009435897859/972252080939077652/author_statement12355.png

To me, it seems Akuto can scale to anything or above anything in the DKD cosmology except for TLOI. Hopefully, I'm not misunderstanding what you're talking about.

This is nice supporting evidence

 

[CosmicWreck]

The author explicitly said anything that humans can imagine is possible. Iirc, they found a simple 4-D space to be utterly incomprehensible and were struggling to comprehend their world being fictitious.

I don't think this is nearly enough evidence to say that Akuto scales to a cosmological construct only the TLOI understands.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

The author explicitly said anything that humans can imagine is possible. Iirc, they found a simple 4-D space to be utterly incomprehensible and were struggling to comprehend their world being fictitious.

I don't think this is nearly enough evidence to say that Akuto scales to a cosmological construct only the TLOI understands.

He's talking about humans in general or us. He didn't address the humans in Ichiban itself or the scientists in the series that were studying the VPS. And you did exaggerate their understanding of the stuff about 4d VPS and them being fiction.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That's why I make a distinction between the chaotic story creation before that and the ordered and controlled one after.

I see what you mean yeah.

But yeah, better to not get into this... since the original subject of the thread was finished, should I close this?

I think there's no real issue with that. Anything upgrade worthy was discussed earlier and the WoG are leading questions which don't change much to begin with.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Definitely not I'm afraid.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why not? It would still fall under all possibilities, no? We also have more statements from the author like this which can be used as backup evidence.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/933020009435897859/972252080939077652/author_statement12355.png

To me, it seems Akuto can scale to anything or above anything in the DKD cosmology except for TLOI. Hopefully, I'm not misunderstanding what you're talking about.

Akuto is omnipotent in specifically the Afterlife. I don't think he has power over levels above the Afterlife. And the other infinite hierarchy is mentioned regarding TLOI in particular. If he transcended it he would be equal to her, which is of course not the case. TLOI is definitely always infinite levels more powerful than him.

He was by default above it after creating them all, or he scales to the highest notion of it, whether interpretation suits you the best. So basically to simplify it, Infinite layered hierarchy<this gets encompassed by Another inf hierarchy(the one akuto made) due to the fact Akuto created every logically structured story. So since there is an infinite layered hierarchy present he mustve created one too. And we know that stories grow to encompass each other, Meaning that the original one gets encompassed by Akuto’s, therefore high outer or two infinite hierarchy’s like you said.

He's above the infinite layered hierarchy he created, yes. But the one he created doesn't encompass the other hierarchy. It's the opposite. The infinite hierarchy mentioned regarding TLOI encompasses the afterlife and hence also Akuto's created hierarchy. That follows from the fact that TLOI, at the top of the hierarchy, by nature can't be on the same level as anyone else. Akuto can't encompass her hierarchy.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Akuto is omnipotent in specifically the Afterlife. I don't think he has power over levels above the Afterlife. And the other infinite hierarchy is mentioned regarding TLOI in particular. If he transcended it he would be equal to her, which is of course not the case. TLOI is definitely always infinite levels more powerful than him.

Maybe I misunderstood something or maybe you did but I didn't mean to say he can recreate TLOI's story hierarchy. Then again it's late so I'm probably tired.

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

Akuto is omnipotent in specifically the Afterlife. I don't think he has power over levels above the Afterlife. And the other infinite hierarchy is mentioned regarding TLOI in particular. If he transcended it he would be equal to her, which is of course not the case. TLOI is definitely always infinite levels more powerful than him.

He's above the infinite layered hierarchy he created, yes. But the one he created doesn't encompass the other hierarchy. It's the opposite. The infinite hierarchy mentioned regarding TLOI encompasses the afterlife and hence also Akuto's created hierarchy. That follows from the fact that TLOI, at the top of the hierarchy, by nature can't be on the same level as anyone else. Akuto can't encompass her hierarchy.

I'm sorry but you're completely wrong. You misunderstood simply because you haven't seen the author's many posts on Twitter.
First he reiterated over and over again that he becomes Almighty, limitless, when the empty body is created through him. Therefore he declares that Akuto Sai of the afterlife is not omnipotent, because he cannot really do everything he wants, as he is still under The Law of Identity.
Moreover Akuto Sai Void Body has been declared by the author himself, in two posts, that he transcends The Law Of Identity, surpassing it in everything. If you want I can send you all the screenshots. This proves that Akuto Sai Void Body can be updated on the page as High 1-A / 0 just like Azathoth. Akuto Sai in Void Body version transcends Tloi which is considered 1A / High 1-A, therefore he must be basic High 1-A if not even 0.

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

Akuto is omnipotent in specifically the Afterlife. I don't think he has power over levels above the Afterlife. And the other infinite hierarchy is mentioned regarding TLOI in particular. If he transcended it he would be equal to her, which is of course not the case. TLOI is definitely always infinite levels more powerful than him.

He's above the infinite layered hierarchy he created, yes. But the one he created doesn't encompass the other hierarchy. It's the opposite. The infinite hierarchy mentioned regarding TLOI encompasses the afterlife and hence also Akuto's created hierarchy. That follows from the fact that TLOI, at the top of the hierarchy, by nature can't be on the same level as anyone else. Akuto can't encompass her hh

Akuto is omnipotent in specifically the Afterlife. I don't think he has power over levels above the Afterlife. And the other infinite hierarchy is mentioned regarding TLOI in particular. If he transcended it he would be equal to her, which is of course not the case. TLOI is definitely always infinite levels more powerful than him.

He's above the infinite layered hierarchy he created, yes. But the one he created doesn't encompass the other hierarchy. It's the opposite. The infinite hierarchy mentioned regarding TLOI encompasses the afterlife and hence also Akuto's created hierarchy. That follows from the fact that TLOI, at the top of the hierarchy, by nature can't be on the same level as anyone else. Akuto can't encompass her hierarchy.

This confirms what I said above. I think it's time to do an update, an upgrade for Akuto Sai.

 

[Ayano_]

I'm sorry but you're completely wrong. You misunderstood simply because you haven't seen the author's many posts on Twitter.
First he reiterated over and over again that he becomes Almighty, limitless, when the empty body is created through him. Therefore he declares that Akuto Sai of the afterlife is not omnipotent, because he cannot really do everything he wants, as he is still under The Law of Identity.
Moreover Akuto Sai Void Body has been declared by the author himself, in two posts, that he transcends The Law Of Identity, surpassing it in everything. If you want I can send you all the screenshots. This proves that Akuto Sai Void Body can be updated on the page as High 1-A / 0 just like Azathoth. Akuto Sai in Void Body version transcends Tloi which is considered 1A / High 1-A, therefore he must be basic High 1-A if not even 0.

I do think that maybe DT miss interpreted what the author is trying to say since the author specifically says that anything you can Describe trough text/imagine is something that Akuto can label to be true, Aka infinite stories, But I honestly do not see how akuto is above TLOI in anyway since they both reach the Anti-universe and to even reach the anti-universe akuto needed to be upgraded by keena to even reach it, But tbh idk about that, What I have to say tho is that Transcending a high 1-A character isn’t tier 0, If you want to argue for tier 0, I would recommend just trying to argue that Akuto created/is capable of creating every logical coherent story which should include multiple infinite hierarchy statements or atleast 2 infinite hierarchy’s since the original story contains that.

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

I do think that maybe DT miss interpreted what the author is trying to say since the author specifically says that anything you can Describe trough text/imagine is something that Akuto can label to be true, Aka infinite stories, But I honestly do not see how akuto is above TLOI in anyway since they both reach the Anti-universe and to even reach the anti-universe akuto needed to be upgraded by keena to even reach it, But tbh idk about that, What I have to say tho is that Transcending a high 1-A character isn’t tier 0, If you want to argue for tier 0, I would recommend just trying to argue that Akuto created/is capable of creating every logical coherent story which should include multiple infinite hierarchy statements or atleast 2 infinite hierarchy’s since the original story contains that.

Sorry for telling you, but your speech is nonsense. As far as Keena has brought, it has nothing to do with what Akuto is. The ritual created The Void Body, where the author says in the work that it even exceeds the 0. On Twitter he says that he transcends TLOI as he has become Omnipotent. The author said that this ritual was needed to also for overcome Tloi. In fact, he also declared Akuto Sai omniscient, which Tloi is not.
Moreover, he said that the anti-universe created, despite being NFL, surpasses any science, physics and study of our real world, since it is not even possible to apply a Cosmology etc. And this is a phenomenal feat of Akuto Sai, perhaps the best feat that will never be surpassed in fiction.
Also on Twitter he explained that then the universe will be created with all the imaginable possibilities of us humans, since the anti-universe will be converted. He also accepted an omniverse with infinite planes of existence etc, but just about anything, since the work is based on solpsism. it's all written on Twitter, you just have to read.
Akuto you know has overcome anything, and your question of hierarchies makes no sense, since the author compared him to Toaa and also said that he can do anything we imagine in his work of him, since he has no more limitations. I don't care that Tier will have Akuto Sai, but his page must be updated due to the large amount of information received.

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

I do think that maybe DT miss interpreted what the author is trying to say since the author specifically says that anything you can Describe trough text/imagine is something that Akuto can label to be true, Aka infinite stories, But I honestly do not see how akuto is above TLOI in anyway since they both reach the Anti-universe and to even reach the anti-universe akuto needed to be upgraded by keena to even reach it, But tbh idk about that, What I have to say tho is that Transcending a high 1-A character isn’t tier 0, If you want to argue for tier 0, I would recommend just trying to argue that Akuto created/is capable of creating every logical coherent story which should include multiple infinite hierarchy statements or atleast 2 infinite hierarchy’s since the original story contains that.

That Akuto is not superior to Tloi is completely wrong.
1) The author is right, not you, so without offense your opinion counts for nothing compared to his opinion.
2) He said that he is superior and that he transcends Tloi in 4 posts, as it becomes something truly unimaginable by surpassing everyone in the work.

 

[Ayano_]

That Akuto is not superior to Tloi is completely wrong.
1) The author is right, not you, so without offense your opinion counts for nothing compared to his opinion.
2) He said that he is superior and that he transcends Tloi in 4 posts, as it becomes something truly unimaginable by surpassing everyone in the work.

You’re completely misconstruing what im asserting here, You can’t make a proposition based of a character being above another without valid statements or feats in that clear piece of fiction, An author statements could be accepted if its atleast coherent with the story(which is kinda vague in this case.

Ive seen the authors tweet and everyone who’s seen it knows that he respondes like a weirdo(no offense, I love ichiban and him, But his responses are so confusing.) And all the tweets youve sent are just people asking him questions about if he actually transcends tloi, Not him actually confirming it.

And he, himself multiple times said that he doesn’t remember much about ichiban(especially the last few volumes.).

Only further more supporting the fact that it isn’t coherent with the piece of literature he wrote back in the day.


And like youve said, Its a NLF, Although I do think Akuto scales very far, Further then what vsbw has him on, You can’t take statements such as being above all human notions at face value, If we took such statements at face value many characters would be above fiction in a sense(Although im aware in the case of ichiban the stories framework is elaborated on further)

And him being above Tloi is contradictory.

Like youve said youself if the anti-universe truly is a place that is transcended over anything and everything(being above fiction and human logic and etc) Then him transcending tloi would contradict those notions due to the fact Tloi scales to the Anti-universe.

In any case here, Your reasoning and the authors reasoning aren’t coherent with the work and are even an contradiction.

Mind elaborating more?

 

[AKUTO123]

It is very strange to come across this crt while preparing a full-fledged alwaysou sandbox. Everyone who talks here seems to know about alwaysou. Do you mind if I send it to you after we have prepared the sandbox?

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

You’re completely misconstruing what im asserting here, You can’t make a proposition based of a character being above another without valid statements or feats in that clear piece of fiction, An author statements could be accepted if its atleast coherent with the story(which is kinda vague in this case.

Ive seen the authors tweet and everyone who’s seen it knows that he respondes like a weirdo(no offense, I love ichiban and him, But his responses are so confusing.) And all the tweets youve sent are just people asking him questions about if he actually transcends tloi, Not him actually confirming it.

And he, himself multiple times said that he doesn’t remember much about ichiban(especially the last few volumes.).

Only further more supporting the fact that it isn’t coherent with the piece of literature he wrote back in the day.


And like youve said, Its a NLF, Although I do think Akuto scales very far, Further then what vsbw has him on, You can’t take statements such as being above all human notions at face value, If we took such statements at face value many characters would be above fiction in a sense(Although im aware in the case of ichiban the stories framework is elaborated on further)

And him being above Tloi is contradictory.

Like youve said youself if the anti-universe truly is a place that is transcended over anything and everything(being above fiction and human logic and etc) Then him transcending tloi would contradict those notions due to the fact Tloi scales to the Anti-universe.

In any case here, Your reasoning and the authors reasoning aren’t coherent with the work and are even an contradiction.

Mind elaborating more?

There is no contradiction. First of all he does not remember some things, ok here nobody doubts it. But I also remind you they sent him all the scenes of the 13th volume on Twitter, in Japanese, of the original work. Therefore, re-reading the last part, he confirmed the omnipotence situation. He didn't say it so casually. Then the question of feat exists, since the author said that for the ritual and to access the anti-universe etc, tloi requires another person, another person is needed (Akuto Sai). In fact, he declared that Tloi is not omnipotent for this very reason, everything is logical, not contradiction. In fact Akuto Sai before the ritual even said if I'm not mistaken, that the Void Body exceeds the 0! Besides, the place where they will go is not totally NFL, but rather he clearly tells you what he will have. Besides, I remind you that the anti-universe is annihilated and converted. The feats are there and how, you just have to reread carefully. Also the author is not as careless as you think, many things he saw as right following the old line of thinking of him. Besides, now he also wants to start re-reading the series.

 

[VoidBodyDKD]

You’re completely misconstruing what im asserting here, You can’t make a proposition based of a character being above another without valid statements or feats in that clear piece of fiction, An author statements could be accepted if its atleast coherent with the story(which is kinda vague in this case.

Ive seen the authors tweet and everyone who’s seen it knows that he respondes like a weirdo(no offense, I love ichiban and him, But his responses are so confusing.) And all the tweets youve sent are just people asking him questions about if he actually transcends tloi, Not him actually confirming it.

And he, himself multiple times said that he doesn’t remember much about ichiban(especially the last few volumes.).

Only further more supporting the fact that it isn’t coherent with the piece of literature he wrote back in the day.


And like youve said, Its a NLF, Although I do think Akuto scales very far, Further then what vsbw has him on, You can’t take statements such as being above all human notions at face value, If we took such statements at face value many characters would be above fiction in a sense(Although im aware in the case of ichiban the stories framework is elaborated on further)

And him being above Tloi is contradictory.

Like youve said youself if the anti-universe truly is a place that is transcended over anything and everything(being above fiction and human logic and etc) Then him transcending tloi would contradict those notions due to the fact Tloi scales to the Anti-universe.

In any case here, Your reasoning and the authors reasoning aren’t coherent with the work and are even an contradiction.

Mind elaborating more?

Sorry if I tell you, but it is useless to deny it just because you think differently from reality.
We may think otherwise, but remember that we do not have the Japanese mentality. In fact, the author clarified many things on Twitter, simply because only by thinking with the Japanese mentality you can come to understand certain things.
Any doubts you have, try asking the author directly on Twitter.

 

[Ayano_]

There is no contradiction. First of all he does not remember some things, ok here nobody doubts it. But I also remind you they sent him all the scenes of the 13th volume on Twitter, in Japanese, of the original work. Therefore, re-reading the last part, he confirmed the omnipotence situation. He didn't say it so casually. Then the question of feat exists, since the author said that for the ritual and to access the anti-universe etc, tloi requires another person, another person is needed (Akuto Sai). In fact, he declared that Tloi is not omnipotent for this very reason, everything is logical, not contradiction. In fact Akuto Sai before the ritual even said if I'm not mistaken, that the Void Body exceeds the 0! Besides, the place where they will go is not totally NFL, but rather he clearly tells you what he will have. Besides, I remind you that the anti-universe is annihilated and converted. The feats are there and how, you just have to reread carefully. Also the author is not as careless as you think, many things he saw as right following the old line of thinking of him. Besides, now he also wants to start re-reading the series.

Doesn’t help your case here at all. You didn’t really refute my argument about the contradiction, And no im not talking about the omnipotence situation here at all. An undeniable truth is that the tloi scales to the antiverse due to the fact that she created it. By saying that Akuto transcends tloi that means he would be above the Antiverse which is by your thesis something above fiction and truly something transcended over everything.

“tloi requires another person, another person is needed (Akuto Sai) In fact, he declared that Tloi is not omnipotent for this reason”

by that same reasoning Akuto isn’t omnipotent too since he couldn’t reach or create the antiverse by himself.

And to note is that no being in fiction has true omni-capability, The whole concept of omnipotence doesn’t really exist in fiction due to the fact it would result in a NLF.

I don’t see how this is a rebutall at all tbh.


But well I hope he re reads the series to give. a good responds for the weird questions to recieve.