Are these guys correct regarding tier 0 downstreamers

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I’m just curious if anyone agrees with what they say regarding our choice in making the downstreamers tier 0

 

[PrinceofPein]

I’m just curious if anyone agrees with what they say regarding our choice in making the downstreamers tier 0

I can’t seem to see where they said what they said

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I can’t seem to see where they said what they said

here (please note i'm not knowledgeable in anything regarding manifold. i'm just bringing up what the reddit users said regarding tier 0 downstreamers)

I suggest we don´t get emotional about this and recognize the VSBW argument is strong.

The 'argument' literally only comes from scaling to A Journey to Amasia in Obelisk, a series of short stories set in the Proxima universe that has absolutely zero relation to the Manifold series. It is on the same level as them using Kull to scale the Cthulhu Mythos cosmology to High 1-A and eventually Tier 0. It's stretching shit to the extreme at best, outright disingenuous at worst.
In short: It's a bunch of bunk.

The manifold is a type IV Tegmark multiverse

This isn't very impressive when you're aware that Tegmark's Type IV only contains all of the structures within computer programs and that it has a high upper bound due to being inconsistent with Godel's incompleteness theorem, which Tegmark himself recognized. It's why his ultimate ensemble can be drastically shrunk and an upper limit placed on its supposed complexity: if only "Godel-complete" (fully-decidable) mathematical structures can be said to have "physical existence" then the Level IV does not contain every structure that exists.




also here

Can you plz spend some time to downgrade the thing then. Make CRT on their forums.

Not the guy you replied to, but I can pretty much tell you, why their current rating of the Downstreamers is bullshit.
Here are the scans that debunk it. Note, you can technically say, that because of Type 4, DS would still scale to Woodin Cardinals (don't agree with this, but whatever). But if you use the story that they use, you'd have to also say that Proxima and Ultima are also a part of the Manifold setting, which would unironically downgrade the Downstreamers to finite multiversal.





if you want more of what they say (use crtl F and type in tirnanogsong) he's the one that's talking about it the most



i want to just see what you guys thing about what the reddit users say (I DON'T WANT CRT's OR ANYTHING) because if the information is wrong then big problems. YOU UNDERSTAND (THE PROFILE SHOULD BE KEPT AS IT IS so I and the other people do not get into trouble or anything)
https://www.reddit.com/user/TirnanogSong/

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

listen if they're right. i still don't want a CRT

maybe a CRT if the staff agree.


but i still worry that the information these guys bring up could still be wrong.


I mean if it was a small thing that needs to fixed then there would be no big issue for me. (but the downstreamers are one of the tier 0 articles here so the CRT is a very big thing and if these guys are wrong then we got some big issues here if a crt with wrong information was added to their article)

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am just reading the manifold series so I can’t say much, let’s wait for the supporters

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I am just reading the manifold series so I can’t say much, let’s wait for the supporters

yeah


also i'm just saying it's better to keep the article of the downstreamers as it is because there are so few supporters here.

and not many people are knowledgeable on cardinals and stuff. (plus the information as i said could be wrong)


and i'm just saying all this because i really really do not want to get in trouble. you understand

 

[Confluctor]

I really really don't see the point of posts like this - no offense, Pokémonfan. It just seems like it will lead to bashing of other communities for no reasons and call each other dumb. We had quite a few before, some about Reddit communities, other about tiktok and more. And quite a few of them got very heated and toxic for no reasons.

Maybe they are correct, maybe they aren't, we just have different standards from them. Everyone got their own ways of scaling things, I know I do, and I am sure you do too. These standards don't have to agree with one another, but that, on its own, is what makes battleboarding quite fun. Different interpretations and all.

 

[Delta333]

we just have different standards from them

If the short stories are not related to Manifold then Woodin stuff for tier 0 is invalid even with our standard

 

[Confluctor]

Phase Space - collection of the short stories - is connected to the main books tho?

 

[Rikimarox2]

The feat apparently comes from Obselik? If so, then from this wikipedia page, Phase Space has no mention of Obselik or A Journey to Amasia. So even if Phase Space is connected to manifold, it doesn't seem Obselik is connected to it.

Let's wait for supporters first, though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

no

 

[Rikimarox2]

Thank you for your detailed response, Bambu.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

no problem man

here to help

 

[Confluctor]

one word response
Doesn't elaborate
Leaves

Based?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I really really don't see the point of posts like this - no offense, Pokémonfan. It just seems like it will lead to bashing of other communities for no reasons and call each other dumb. We had quite a few before, some about Reddit communities, other about tiktok and more. And quite a few of them got very heated and toxic for no reasons.

Maybe they are correct, maybe they aren't, we just have different standards from them. Everyone got their own ways of scaling things, I know I do, and I am sure you do too. These standards don't have to agree with one another, but that, on its own, is what makes battleboarding quite fun. Different interpretations and all.

okay confluctor. i just sometimes get this feeling of wanting to bring stuff like this up.

but after what you said i think i best avoid it.

 

[Jibz]

Obelisk is part of the Proxima duology also by Stephen Baxter. Journey to Amasia is where the woodin cardinal scan comes from, not Obelisk. Journey to Amasia is in Phase Space. The canonicity of Journey to Amasia in regards to Manifold is something left to be desired,so to speak. But that's a conversation for another day and one id rather not have.


As seen throughout the manifold cosmology, the manifold verse runs under the TOE with all things mathematically possible being physically present within the verse

"In the infinite manifold, in that infinite ensemble Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The Manifold of what?" "Universes. It is of course that all logically possible universes must exist. The Universe, this universe, is described--umm, thats the wrong word--by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics. Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?"

This is seen with prime numbers being the basis of stars and people:

" given a table of prime numbers and being able to deduce atoms and stars and people as a necessary consequence of the existence of the primes. And since prime numbers, of course, existed everywhere"

With the downstreamers (old ones) creating this manifold:

"They made the manifold.” “Who did?” “The Old Ones. They constructed a manifold of universes—an infinite number of universes. They made it all.” Nemoto shook her head. “Even framing the thought, conceiving of such ambition, is overwhelming. But they did it.”"

Now this would mean all things that exist math wise, would exist inside the verse visa vi all cardinals meaning they're pretty high up into tier 0.

The verse is so complex and there's stuff i disagree with in scaling, but i am far too lazy to do anything about it. Hell i even posted scans of Anna and the blue children's tinkerbell verbatim being stated to destroy a planet, and then doing so at a fraction of a second, and was just ignored, so i stopped caring about indexing it here.

 

[Jibz]

I hope this helped. The cosmology is way more complicated then just this, but i had to summarise it as best i could, using what i perceive to be canonical material (not sure if vsbw considers world's Engine canon, if they dont then lord help manifoldverse)

 

[Jibz]

This isn't very impressive when you're aware that Tegmark's Type IV only contains all of the structures within computer programs

There is CUH and MUH, the two have heavy differences when it comes to cosmology:

CUH: computable universe hypothesis (CUH), which says that the mathematical structure that is our external physical reality is defined by computable functions.


MUH: Our external physical reality is a mathematical structure.[3] That is, the physical universe is not merely described by mathematics, but is mathematics (specifically, a mathematical structure). Mathematical existence equals physical existence, and all structures that exist mathematically exist physically as well. Observers, including humans, are "self-aware substructures (SASs)". In any mathematical structure complex enough to contain such substructures, they "will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically 'real' world".[4]

You are referring to CUH type IV multiverse which Manifold is not. It is a MUH type IV multiverse, unlike CUH which is described as an "augmentation" from MUH on wikipedia

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

There is CUH and MUH, the two have heavy differences when it comes to cosmology:

CUH: computable universe hypothesis (CUH), which says that the mathematical structure that is our external physical reality is defined by computable functions.


MUH: Our external physical reality is a mathematical structure.[3] That is, the physical universe is not merely described by mathematics, but is mathematics (specifically, a mathematical structure). Mathematical existence equals physical existence, and all structures that exist mathematically exist physically as well. Observers, including humans, are "self-aware substructures (SASs)". In any mathematical structure complex enough to contain such substructures, they "will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically 'real' world".[4]

You are referring to CUH type IV multiverse which Manifold is not. It is a MUH type IV multiverse, unlike CUH which is described as an "augmentation" from MUH on wikipedia

I didn’t say that and I have no idea what the stuff means (I prefer to stay away from this stuff)

that was just a quote I copied from tirnanogsong

 

[Jibz]

If the short stories are not related to Manifold then Woodin stuff for tier 0 is invalid even with our standard

Honestly, i do not believe Journey to Amasia is part of the Manifoldverse, as in phase space, Baxter directly links which books are part of manifoldverse, and that Journey to Amasia was listed under Proxima rather than Manifold. However, if you take the extremely vague statement of:

"'Cornelius says that all these images – the multiple moons, the rings – are all possibilities, alternate outcomes of how that ancient collision might have come about. As if other realities are folding down into our own. Other realities, from out there in phase space.' He searched their faces, seeking understanding."

Literally, then it would be canon, but that's iffy.

 

[Jibz]

I didn’t say that and I have no idea what the stuff means (I prefer to stay away from this stuff)

that was just a quote I copied from tirnanogsong

It's alr. Technically they were half right, but they got rid of all the nuance in favour of downscaling.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Honestly after seeing all this.

i think it’s best for me to stay away from this kind of stuff

 

[Jibz]

Honestly after seeing all this.

i think it’s best for me to stay away from this kind of stuff

the books ive read are god awful (minus Manifold : Time, i ****** loved it), and the verse itself is very mathy and complicated. Malenfant's pretty cool, but not even he's worth taking a deep dive into this verse.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

the books ive read are god awful (minus Manifold : Time, i ****** loved it), and the verse itself is very mathy and complicated. Malenfant's pretty cool, but not even he's worth taking a deep dive into this verse.

agree but i meant anything having to do with dimensional tiering and aleph, woodin, or any cardinal related stuff.

that will really mess up your brain if you try to understand it (except if your smart as mathematician or close to that)

 

[Jibz]

agree but i meant anything having to do with dimensional tiering and aleph, woodin, or any cardinal related stuff.

that will really mess up your brain if you try to understand it (except if your smart as mathematician or close to that)

Honestly im a hard supporter of the "why on earth did we make 1-A and above so complicated" group, but its the future we live in now and i doubt it'll change anytime soon.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I really really don't see the point of posts like this - no offense, Pokémonfan. It just seems like it will lead to bashing of other communities for no reasons and call each other dumb. We had quite a few before, some about Reddit communities, other about tiktok and more. And quite a few of them got very heated and toxic for no reasons.

Maybe they are correct, maybe they aren't, we just have different standards from them. Everyone got their own ways of scaling things, I know I do, and I am sure you do too. These standards don't have to agree with one another, but that, on its own, is what makes battleboarding quite fun. Different interpretations and all.

should we lock the thread?


i think we get the idea by now based on what you said.

 

[Confluctor]

I will close it