Genshin Impact ability CRT

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The purpose of this thread is to as the title says discuss the various abilities the characters have.
The main one being elemental intangibility. All playable characters currently have elemental intangibility and flight through this. I believe this is wrong for some reasons
1. Mona can be harmed within her Illusory Torrent (her alternate sprint) by normal attacks. In fact a sufficiently heavy attack will knock her out of it. This seems to coincide with the in game description of the skill. The exact specifics aren't relevant what is however is she can be harmed in that state.

2. Characters within the manga such as Amber don't turn into their element when it would be needed such as when Amber is attempting to evade Krupp (Page 12-15). This could imply becoming your element is a hard ability to learn and takes time or is something not everyone can do.

3. Traveler, Zhongli, Xiao and Venti aren't traditional vision wielders and shouldn't be assumed to have elemental intangibility or the ability to become their elements. It is mentioned Xiao wears a vision because he takes a human form.

Adding on to this, I feel we should discuss about separating odd things in game that don't fit with the lore of the characters. For example Baron Bunny works like a taunt in game but is simply an explosive in the manga and logically no human would fall for it. Some constellations tend to fit this category as they sometimes create effects like buffs or debuffs as an example Geo Traveler's burst boost crit rate. Some characters also shouldn't have weapon summoning as with Jean in both the manga and official art carries her sword in a scabbard on her hip yet summons it in game or Kaeya who chooses to create an ice blade rather than summon a normal sword.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While I don't care about the other two stuff (mainly just go with the flow)

For the weapon summoning, I would say that it not appearing in lore =/= it not being a legit thing these characters can do. While Jean tends to have her sword in a scabbard, she could still be capable of summoning like the other characters in the game. It moreso would be an argument that it is unlikely she will just summon it out of nowhere like most other characters. It doesn't contradict anything, just that it's an ability she has that she won't really make too much use of. Basically the same for Kaeya.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

While I don't care about the other two stuff (mainly just go with the flow)

For the weapon summoning, I would say that it not appearing in lore =/= it not being a legit thing these characters can do. While Jean tends to have her sword in a scabbard, she could still be capable of summoning like the other characters in the game. It moreso would be an argument that it is unlikely she will just summon it out of nowhere like most other characters. It doesn't contradict anything, just that it's an ability she has that she won't really make too much use of. Basically the same for Kaeya.

Fair enough it doesn't really impact much but I just find it odd how Amber doesn't use it at all in the manga and has to physically carry her bow around.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am unfamiliar with the manga right now so I cannot say much for anything regarding stuff from there. So Sol would be best for any Manga issues.

 

[Wdinatx]

While I'm not sure about how to respond on the other things your comment on weapon summoning doesn't really have solid evidence (though it is worth noting Amber was caught without her bow at one point, implying she can't summon it) but your comment on Traveler, Zhongli, Xiao, and Venti applies to the Traveler and Xiao but not the other two. Zhongli and Venti not only grant all vision related powers of their element, but Venti is expressly mentioned to have been a wind spirit in the past.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Ok I'll wait for them then

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

While I'm not sure about how to respond on the other things your comment on weapon summoning doesn't really have solid evidence (though it is worth noting Amber was caught without her bow at one point, implying she can't summon it) but your comment on Traveler, Zhongli, Xiao, and Venti applies to the Traveler and Xiao but not the other two. Zhongli and Venti not only grant all vision related powers of their element, but Venti is expressly mentioned to have been a wind spirit in the past.

I wasn't aware it was directly stated the Archons granted visions to the characters. Wouldn't that require a level of omniscience on their part? Venti was a wind sprite yes but not every elemental being has shown they can become their element.

 

[Wdinatx]

I wasn't aware it was directly stated the Archons granted visions to the characters. Wouldn't that require a level of omniscience on their part? Venti was a wind sprite yes but not every elemental being has shown they can become their element.

It's not expressly stated but it is generally accepted given how heavily it is implied to the point it's mentioned on their profiles, though it's possible they need their Gnosis to do so.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I wasn't aware it was directly stated the Archons granted visions to the characters. Wouldn't that require a level of omniscience on their part? Venti was a wind sprite yes but not every elemental being has shown they can become their element.

It wouldn't be omnicience due to it moreso being that the Archons likely explore all over outside of their nations (for instance, Venti has been noted to leave Mondstadt to visit Zhongli in Liyue from time to time) so it's likely that when characters get a vision, an Archon is likely nearby at the right place and time.

 

[Wdinatx]

Couldn't it just be clairvoyance causing them to see certain things?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Alright I'll concede on that as both of you make sense.

It's not expressly stated but it is generally accepted given how heavily it is implied to the point it's mentioned on their profiles, though it's possible they need their Gnosis to do so.

Would their elemental transformation be limited to them with their Gnosis?

 

[Wdinatx]

Alright I'll concede on that as both of you make sense.

Would their elemental transformation be limited to them with their Gnosis?

Almost certainly given that their Gnosis act like visions but more powerful, though a case could be made for Venti still being a wind spirit.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I still would prefer not to assume Venti can do that just by being a wind spirit.

 

[Wdinatx]

That's fair.

 

[Ronin119]

alright, for the weapon summoning and the characters who don't have elemental intangibility, I disagree with those for the reason above, plus someone like Eula was able to in her opening cutscene here at 0:24 specifically, and characters like Jean and Kaeya are directly comparable to her in strength and skill, so there's no reason they couldn't do it.

for 1 and 2 i'll wait a bit for more thoughts on it tbh

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Are you saying all characters can become their element or all excluding Traveler and Xiao?

 

[Ronin119]

Are you saying all characters can become their element or all excluding Traveler and Xiao?

becoming their element yeah, don't know about becoming intangible though

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

becoming their element yeah, don't know about becoming intangible though

Traveler and Xiao are never shown doing that and aren't vision wielders in the traditional sense

 

[Ronin119]

Traveler and Xiao are never shown doing that and aren't vision wielders in the traditional sense

I agreed that they shouldn't be able to do it

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I agreed that they shouldn't be able to do it

Oh ok

 

[Jackpact]

I should also note that Zhongli have a different physiology then normal human as his body is by his own admission built differently then human and is likely inorganic as in his dying word he say even bedrock can crumble so there's that, not like it change much.

Also in chapter 14 despite not wearing any weapon Amber immediately whip out a bow and despite not having any quiver her last seires of attack on the guy is real arrow so they probably have some inventory space which due to the only people showing summoning and telekinesis being allogenes all allogenes should be able to suumon and telekineticly control their weapon.

 

[Solacis]

The main one being elemental intangibility. All playable characters currently have elemental intangibility and flight through this. I believe this is wrong for some reasons
1. Mona can be harmed within her Illusory Torrent (her alternate sprint) by normal attacks. In fact a sufficiently heavy attack will knock her out of it. This seems to coincide with the in game description of the skill. The exact specifics aren't relevant what is however is she can be harmed in that state.

Can I get a source on Mona being vulnerable while in water form? From what I've seen and read, she only loses her i-frames when she pops out of the ground.

If that is the case, though, then it's likely a case-by-case thing. We know that at the very least, Electro users can't be knocked out of it, since the Electro Cicin Mages use that ability to teleport, and they can't be intercepted or else they'd be far less annoying. Same goes for Lisa.

2. Characters within the manga such as Amber don't turn into their element when it would be needed such as when Amber is attempting to evade Krupp (Page 12-15). This could imply becoming your element is a hard ability to learn and takes time or is something not everyone can do.

If someone as untrained as Klee can do it, there's no reason to believe it's hard to do, and if we look at Mona's sprint, we know that it's hardly slow.

Amber not using it to evade Krupp isn't an anti-feat, it's PIS. Hell, Venti showed the ability to teleport in his first cutscene yet he needed us to go down and steal the Holy Lyre for him. We know he could've teleported in there because a Cicin Mage did exactly that. Characters turning into their elements easily and quickly is far more consistent than the few times characters could have used their abilities but didn't.

3. Traveler, Zhongli, Xiao and Venti aren't traditional vision wielders and shouldn't be assumed to have elemental intangibility or the ability to become their elements. It is mentioned Xiao wears a vision because he takes a human form.

It is stated flat-out in Xiao's character stories that he has a Vision. It is stated in the same link that you posted that all Adepti have Visions that are obtained and manifest in a manner differently than the ones used by humans. These are their "inner eye" that serves the exact same purpose as a Vision, and just so happens to manifest as a physical Vision when they take human form. Ergo, Xiao and Zhongli both have Visions.

As for the Traveler, we obtain our ability to use the elements directly from the respective Archon, same as Visions. Functionally speaking, there's no difference unless stated otherwise.

As for Venti, in the first place, he's a wind spirit. His normal form is literally made of Anemo. If anyone were to have elemental intangibility and flight, it would be him.

Adding on to this, I feel we should discuss about separating odd things in game that don't fit with the lore of the characters. For example Baron Bunny works like a taunt in game but is simply an explosive in the manga and logically no human would fall for it. Some constellations tend to fit this category as they sometimes create effects like buffs or debuffs as an example Geo Traveler's burst boost crit rate. Some characters also shouldn't have weapon summoning as with Jean in both the manga and official art carries her sword in a scabbard on her hip yet summons it in game or Kaeya who chooses to create an ice blade rather than summon a normal sword.

For cases where there is an explicit showcase of what an ability actually does in-lore compared to what is displayed in-game, then naturally we'll take the lore over gameplay. But until such cases arise, there's no reason not to take what the game gives us as inherently false.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Can I get a source on Mona being vulnerable while in water form? From what I've seen and read, she only loses her i-frames when she pops out of the ground.

If that is the case, though, then it's likely a case-by-case thing. We know that at the very least, Electro users can't be knocked out of it, since the Electro Cicin Mages use that ability to teleport, and they can't be intercepted or else they'd be far less annoying. Same goes for Lisa.

If someone as untrained as Klee can do it, there's no reason to believe it's hard to do, and if we look at Mona's sprint, we know that it's hardly slow.

Amber not using it to evade Krupp isn't an anti-feat, it's PIS. Hell, Venti showed the ability to teleport in his first cutscene yet he needed us to go down and steal the Holy Lyre for him. We know he could've teleported in there because a Cicin Mage did exactly that. Characters turning into their elements easily and quickly is far more consistent than the few times characters could have used their abilities but didn't.

It is stated flat-out in Xiao's character stories that he has a Vision. It is stated in the same link that you posted that all Adepti have Visions that are obtained and manifest in a manner differently than the ones used by humans. These are their "inner eye" that serves the exact same purpose as a Vision, and just so happens to manifest as a physical Vision when they take human form. Ergo, Xiao and Zhongli both have Visions.

As for the Traveler, we obtain our ability to use the elements directly from the respective Archon, same as Visions. Functionally speaking, there's no difference unless stated otherwise.

As for Venti, in the first place, he's a wind spirit. His normal form is literally made of Anemo. If anyone were to have elemental intangibility and flight, it would be him.

For cases where there is an explicit showcase of what an ability actually does in-lore compared to what is displayed in-game, then naturally we'll take the lore over gameplay. But until such cases arise, there's no reason not to take what the game gives us as inherently false.

I have Mona and I tested it in game. Unless you want me to record a video of this.

Lisa and the Mage might be flat out teleportation since they are mages and Mona is actually capable of opening portals as shown in her quest

Klee isn’t exactly untrained though didn’t Alice teach her magic and stuff.


We shouldn’t assume characters have abilities like that without proof though. Traveler could’ve turned into their element when Childe destroyed the floor but didn’t. They could’ve done the same when they fell from the Jade Chamber but didn’t. They could’ve done it when Dvalin launched them into the air but didn’t. There are probably more instances I could find of this.

So what about Jean’s passive to heal by attacking enemies? She never healed her wound vs Krupp for example.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Also in chapter 14 despite not wearing any weapon Amber immediately whip out a bow and despite not having any quiver her last seires of attack on the guy is real arrow so they probably have some inventory space which due to the only people showing summoning and telekinesis being allogenes all allogenes should be able to suumon and telekineticly control their weapon.

That’s weird. Do they only have selective inventory? What was even the point of considering not carrying her bow earlier? I hope that ability gets acknowledged or explained later

 

[Jackpact]

That’s weird. Do they only have selective inventory? What was even the point of considering not carrying her bow earlier? I hope that ability gets acknowledged or explained later

Well for one thing she wasn't on a mission that day and was only coming to check on Collei which she thought was safe as there is a member of sumeru academia who should be comparable to Lisa near there so she thought she doesn't need to get her weapon ready and it isn't just the bow and arrow, in chapter 10 or 11 she bolt straight to where Kaeya and Collei was fighting without stopping anywhere else and when she came, she took a baron bunny that she didn't have on her in the festival from somewhere and throw it in between them to stop them, so it's safe to say that she can store weapons of her possession in the inventory.

 

[Jackpact]

Also her skill baron bunny and her idle animations ingame literally have her pull out baron bunny out of nowhere so there's also that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So what about Jean’s passive to heal by attacking enemies? She never healed her wound vs Krupp for example.

As someone who deals with verses that do this very thing (Digimon). In which an ability may get various skills within different games, but these added abilities may not show up in the anime or manga due to the sheer fact of different writers or writers who are different from the game staff. In this case, we accept added abilities shown by gameplay as it is an intentional ability the creators wanted characters to have unless it's something that we can't really rate (like CRIT Rate or CRIT DMG). Seeing as both mediums are canon, this allows us to use abilities from both. So for Jean, while it is not shown in the manga, she would still have this ability by virtue of it being a legit ability she was given in the game.

 

[Jackpact]

To add to what dragon say, Mihoyo tend to have both the game and the lore being canon so you can't just discard everything just beacause it hasn't been shown or confirm in the lore, if it get deny by the game later on then we remove it but if there's no contradiction or the only contradiction is something that they can't add in as it would break the game then we would also ignore said contradiction. On the contrary we can't accept everything, stats for example as there's nothing that back it up, we could maybe use base stat of a character without anything else as that's their intended peak but articact stats and weapon stats and special effects are absolutely out as nothing prove that they have it or is even canon (artifact is but it effect, not so much), in order for it to be accepted in this case you need to have some backing from in game item lore, lore in general or official material in order for it to be considered or accepted.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Well for one thing she wasn't on a mission that day and was only coming to check on Collei which she thought was safe as there is a member of sumeru academia who should be comparable to Lisa near there so she thought she doesn't need to get her weapon ready and it isn't just the bow and arrow, in chapter 10 or 11 she bolt straight to where Kaeya and Collei was fighting without stopping anywhere else and when she came, she took a baron bunny that she didn't have on her in the festival from somewhere and throw it in between them to stop them, so it's safe to say that she can store weapons of her possession in the inventory.

I’m talking about when she went to investigate something and didn’t carry her bow. It

To add to what dragon say, Mihoyo tend to have both the game and the lore being canon so you can't just discard everything just beacause it hasn't been shown or confirm in the lore, if it get deny by the game later on then we remove it but if there's no contradiction or the only contradiction is something that they can't add in as it would break the game then we would also ignore said contradiction. On the contrary we can't accept everything, stats for example as there's nothing that back it up, we could maybe use base stat of a character without anything else as that's their intended peak but articact stats and weapon stats and special effects are absolutely out as nothing prove that they have it or is even canon (artifact is but it effect, not so much), in order for it to be accepted in this case you need to have some backing from in game item lore, lore in general or official material in order for it to be considered or accepted.

I’m not advocating for discarding all in game abilities but Jean’s ability to heal by attacking is a passive thing which is why it not being used is weird and like I said I wanted us to discuss what should and shouldn’t be considered

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Basically similar to how we handle Digimon or other verses (like Pokemon) where some skills gain new effects from the gameplay.

All these skills are viable to be used unless these added effects are very gamey (like I said CRIT stuff or luring mechanic stuff). However, added abilities like passive skills and such given by the game should be considered perfectly viable and the lack of it showing in the manga can easily just be a case of different writers or the writers not being aware of such an ability.

Just treat it as an expansion of the ability.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Alright. What about Baron Bunny taunting opponents of human intelligence? Do we keep that?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am not sure on Baron Bunny or things like Ganyu's flower or Mona's Water decoy. I would consider those to be the "gamey" things I was discussing.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Mona’s is the only one that might make any sense since she does have rather magical abilities like portal creation but yeah I agree with you.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I’m kinda just neutral on this revision

But I agree that not absolutely every vision user should elemental intangiblity
Just those who have showcased it or very logically should be able to do it
Characters who just don’t do it when it matters likely means they specifically can’t do it or can’t do it as well as others

 

[Jackpact]

So what are the consensus so far.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have no opinion on the Elemental Intagibility btw.

 

[Jackpact]

I don't have opinion on elemental intangibility as thing seem pretty shaky with some having and some don't, tho i will say that Amber case was 4 years ago, she could very well learned how to do it now and it also is illogical to say that Klee who just got her vision was able to do it while the rest that have 2+ year of experiences can't do it. Other than that i don't have any opinion on it.

 

[Solacis]

Considering everything said above, I can agree with only those who display the ability or should very logically possess the ability can have Elemental Intangibility.

Dragonmaster does bring up a correct point in that abilities that may not be displayed in other media but are represented in canon material should still be considered valid unless they fall completely under Game Mechanics. So things like Baron Bunny's "taunt" would be Game Mechanics, but abilities like Jean's healing would be kept, and vice versa. It's basically what we did for Persona and god knows half the things they have on the profiles aren't exactly "explicitly displayed" in either gameplay, the anime or manga.

Anyway-

While we're on the topic of distinguishing game mechanics and valid abilities, we still haven't settled the matter of talent scaling. Personally, using the percentage multipliers of attack strings and base skill/ult damage feels too "gamey" for me, but there are things like Healing potency and Stat Amp/Reduction potencies that are also only represented in talent scaling. I feel like we need to use at least some of the values they give us, but we need to draw a line there somewhere. Any thoughts?

 

[Jackpact]

Def scaling that isn't damage or healing is definitely out since there's no way that a shield is only 3x dura, don't know how to treat maxhp either, it's definitely a stamina thing but that would mean healing that scale through that would be only be replenishing stamina, shield is even more vague as how to we even quantify it let alone damage like Zhongli. Atk is fine and everything else is fine to me. I will say that the presence of Crown of insight make ignoring damage multiplier seem a little bit too unfair as the description and the fact that we use it to max base level a skill is pretty telling that skill scaling is somewhat canon, tho i will say ignore it for one that have too high of a multiplier like Eula, or scaling with elemental mastery like the upcoming character because once again we don't know how to quantify it.

 

[Jackpact]

For a more less eye gouging opinon:

How to we scale def and maxhp since those two are pretty weird to use for scaling especially maxhp.

Atk and the rest are fine as long as isn't like 90% all damage reduction.

We will need to know how to treat burst energy cost and timer as those could be use to indicate cooldown for burst, elemental skill should be spamable as most of them require minimal effort from the user.

Damage multiplier shouldn't just be flat out ignored as it's clear that those ability is stronger than your average attack and the existence of crown of insight and how we need it to max level skill make it pretty clear that the multiplier is canon base on the desciption of the crown.

Damage multiplier that make no sense tho should be just ignored or limited like Eula.

How to treat elemental mastery since sucrose and upcoming character have ability that increase or scale with it.