Genshin Impact ability CRT

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Considering everything said above, I can agree with only those who display the ability or should very logically possess the ability can have Elemental Intangibility.

Dragonmaster does bring up a correct point in that abilities that may not be displayed in other media but are represented in canon material should still be considered valid unless they fall completely under Game Mechanics. So things like Baron Bunny's "taunt" would be Game Mechanics, but abilities like Jean's healing would be kept, and vice versa. It's basically what we did for Persona and god knows half the things they have on the profiles aren't exactly "explicitly displayed" in either gameplay, the anime or manga.

Anyway-

While we're on the topic of distinguishing game mechanics and valid abilities, we still haven't settled the matter of talent scaling. Personally, using the percentage multipliers of attack strings and base skill/ult damage feels too "gamey" for me, but there are things like Healing potency and Stat Amp/Reduction potencies that are also only represented in talent scaling. I feel like we need to use at least some of the values they give us, but we need to draw a line there somewhere. Any thoughts?

The line for me gets drawn at things like Crit damage and crit rate that really feels gamey
Max hp and even likely defense is also too gamey
I’m fine towards using percentages for the bursts and elemental skills and it wouldn’t be too extreme, mostly just some characters would be Low 7-B+ to 7-B with their Bursts
I’m especially a fan of stat amps and reduction potencies too

 

[Jackpact]

The line for me gets drawn at things like Crit damage and crit rate that really feels gamey
Max hp and even likely defense is also too gamey
I’m fine towards using percentages for the bursts and elemental skills and it wouldn’t be too extreme, mostly just some characters would be Low 7-B+ to 7-B with their Bursts
I’m especially a fan of stat amps and reduction potencies too

Crit is definitely out since that only exist in game not in lore whatsover.
Don't know about that since certain character have their entire kit built around those two stat like Noelle and Hutao so unless you want to ban Hutao who is very usable in the debate then we shouldn't ignore it.
If the calc for Andrius went through then Zhongli would be High-6C with planet befall, pretty consistent too since we calced it too around 200 gig.
If you aren't then you wouldn't be a supporter for honkai :v.

 

[Solacis]

Well I suppose the E skills and bursts would naturally be far stronger than their normal attacks, so using that scaling wouldn't really be out there and it's not like they're that inconsistent considering Baron Bunny could force Kaeya to block and Fiery Rain could damage Barnabas. You know, taking that into account, it's actually much more consistent than I thought.

Stat amps and reductions are certainly valid enough for use.

Healing potencies should be fine since Barbara canonically heals up Bennett's extreme injuries practically daily, so they're hardly out there.

Defense and Max HP are hard, though. I suppose the former is Durability and the latter is Stamina, but considering certain abilities scale to HP, it'd be ludicrous to scale to something as vague as stamina. I can see us taking Defense scaling, since we partly already do that for Noelle's C6, but Max HP I don't see working out.

Besides the Crit stats and the Auto-Attack values, which are definitely out, what other kinds of scaling do we have?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Crit is definitely out since that only exist in game not in lore whatsover.
Don't know about that since certain character have their entire kit built around those two stat like Noelle and Hutao so unless you want to ban Hutao who is very usable in the debate then we shouldn't ignore it.
If the calc for Andrius went through then Zhongli would be High-6C with planet befall, pretty consistent too since we calced it too around 200 gig.
If you aren't then you wouldn't be a supporter for honkai :v.

Yeah I guess so but max stamina is just vague and would screw over say Hu Tao if we treated it like that since she gets rid of her Hp
Defense can be acceptable as durability then
Defense amps can be viewed as ok

Ofc for Venti and Zhongli they’d be tier 6 or High 7-A+ with their bursts due to their higher ratings so I am not surprised

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Well I suppose the E skills and bursts would naturally be far stronger than their normal attacks, so using that scaling wouldn't really be out there and it's not like they're that inconsistent considering Baron Bunny could force Kaeya to block and Fiery Rain could damage Barnabas. You know, taking that into account, it's actually much more consistent than I thought.

Stat amps and reductions are certainly valid enough for use.

Healing potencies should be fine since Barbara canonically heals up Bennett's extreme injuries practically daily, so they're hardly out there.

Defense and Max HP are hard, though. I suppose the former is Durability and the latter is Stamina, but considering certain abilities scale to HP, it'd be ludicrous to scale to something as vague as stamina. I can see us taking Defense scaling, since we partly already do that for Noelle's C6, but Max HP I don't see working out.

Besides the Crit stats and the Auto-Attack values, which are definitely out, what other kinds of scaling do we have?

I think outside of those it’s just sprint stamina but ofc we are gonna ignore that
I agree the vagueness of Hp makes it a pain
and on everything else

 

[Jackpact]

I'm fine with auto-attack scaling not being used but you can make a case for catalyst user since most of their attack tend to be magic based not pure physical like the rest. I will say this, if a character can self infuse their attack with elemental damage like all catalyst user or bow user charge attack and Diluc, Kequing, Jean then they should be able to keep the auto-attack multiplier until the infusing run out.

Well how do we scale Hutao then? Do we just ban her beacause HP is a really important part of her kit, same with Zhongli as his shield is hp base and dominance of earth increase his damage via maxhp, so unless we just ignore those skill and ban hutao we should try to make something up for that.

Def is also ok? The shield that they made should be stronger than one that can be made by any allogenes so i don't know we should treat it as 3x dura unless we want to take into account there def stat.

There aren't anymore scaling other than those if i recall.

 

[Solacis]

I took a look at Fiery Rain's scaling.

Taking into account that Amber was completely incapable of hurting Barnabas with her normal attacks, but was able to wound him with Fiery Rain, the Burst's 12x amp is actually quite consistent with the displays of power.

You can also look at Diluc's burst. It takes multiple normal attacks for him to kill a single Abyss Mage, but he one-shots two of them with Dawn, which is a 9x amp. Again, consistent with the cutscene display.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I'm fine with auto-attack scaling not being used but you can make a case for catalyst user since most of their attack tend to be magic based not pure physical like the rest. I will say this, if a character can self infuse their attack with elemental damage like all catalyst user or bow user charge attack and Diluc, Kequing, Jean then they should be able to keep the auto-attack multiplier until the infusing run out.

Well how do we scale Hutao then? Do we just ban her beacause HP is a really important part of her kit, same with Zhongli as his shield is hp base and dominance of earth increase his damage via maxhp, so unless we just ignore those skill and ban hutao we should try to make something up for that.

Def is also ok? The shield that they made should be stronger than one that can be made by any allogenes so i don't know we should treat it as 3x dura unless we want to take into account there def stat.

There aren't anymore scaling other than those if i recall.

The amp they get to their auto attacks from infusing should be allowed but that should be it
I think while scaling stamina is vague the best we can do for Hu Tao is just say it is stamina
And that her E makes her tired
Zhongli is just stronger at high stamina than at low stamina
And leave it at that
Is the any allogene barrier 3x? If so that should be noted on pages

 

[Solacis]

Is the any allogene barrier 3x? If so that should be noted on pages

The one Amber used could tank a serious attack from Barnabas, who was stomping her.

Taking into consideration then, that it takes a 12x amp of Amber's AP to notably damage Barnabas, then the shield "HP" should be able to tank a total accumulated damage of 10x the user's AP at the very least. Basically, if Amber A fought Amber B, Amber A's shield can tank at least 10 hits from Amber B before it breaks.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

The one Amber used could tank a serious attack from Barnabas, who was stomping her.

Taking into consideration then, that it takes a 12x amp of Amber's AP to notably damage Barnabas, then the shield "HP" should be able to tank a total accumulated damage of 10x the user's AP at the very least. Basically, if Amber A fought Amber B, Amber A's shield can tank at least 10 hits from Amber B before it breaks.

This seems to make sense

 

[Solacis]

Anyway the standard Allogene abilities should probably be explained on the Verse Page itself. So many people seem to misunderstand the shields and think they're unbreakable unless you have x times the AP of the Allogene using it, as opposed to just whittling away at it with multiple weaker attacks until the shield's HP drops to zero and breaks.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Anyway the standard Allogene abilities should probably be explained on the Verse Page itself. So many people seem to misunderstand the shields and think they're unbreakable unless you have x times the AP of the Allogene using it, as opposed to just whittling away at it with multiple weaker attacks until the shield's HP drops to zero and breaks.

I feel the same
We can’t have such misunderstandings in almost any vs thread with a Genshin character it’s annoying

 

[Jackpact]

Well then i guess the consensus are:
Skill scaling is fine and auto attack would only apply to catalyst user and those that can infuse their attack with elemental damage.
Maxhp will be treated as stamina for Hutao and Zhongli, the rest is still undecided.
Def should be ignored? The def scaling of shield make no sense although healing, damage and amp is fine.
Shield scaling would just be far higher for those that have ability that create shield cause the scaling of those shield is stupid.
Allogenes basic shield is 10x user ap.

There's still the elemental mastery and maxhp for the rest of the character that scale to them but whether you want to continue to talk about it is up to you.

 

[Jackpact]

If these went through then Beidou would be pretty strong, Razor is the bane of all lightning user of the same tier, the new meme will be Burst gg now all we need is to wait for that honkai collab and we will get reaction amp

 

[Jackpact]

So do we just wait for other member to come in here and give their opinion or do we still have anything else?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

So do we just wait for other member to come in here and give their opinion or do we still have anything else?

Yeah we have to wait for staff evaluation

 

[Jackpact]

Well do we also ask for the scaling evaluation or do we use another thread for it, i wouldn't mind putting the scaling to another thread.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Well do we also ask for the scaling evaluation or do we use another thread for it, i wouldn't mind putting the scaling to another thread.

We ask for everything mentioned in the thread to be evaluated
Only if needed should we make a thread for that too now

 

[Jackpact]

Well guess we're going to need to quote the scaling thing too then, there's still the maxhp for other ability that scale with it and elemental mastery in sucrose and upcoming Kazuha but i guess we can talk about those once Kazuha came out.

So do we just edit each of the profile to add in the multiplier if it was accepted?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Well guess we're going to need to quote the scaling thing too then, there's still the maxhp for other ability that scale with it and elemental mastery in sucrose and upcoming Kazuha but i guess we can talk about those once Kazuha came out.

So do we just edit each of the profile to add in the multiplier if it was accepted?

Only after staff evaluates but yeah

 

[Jackpact]

bump

 

[Solacis]

Minor CRTs don't usually need staff approval, but while this isn't really a major CRT, it'll at least need approval from at least 1 member of staff.

Could ask Dragonmasterxyz to evaluate the conclusions.

 

[Jackpact]

So how do we treat the Def on Noelle elemental skill? Do we treat that def as her normal shield or ignore it and slap a far higher with Breastplate? Same with Xinyan. The other shielder though scale with HP so we will just slap a far higher for them since Hutao is a special case that fit with her skill the rest have no reason to scale to stamina nor do they even have a definitive number to scale off of.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Can I ask why Eula is scaled to Foul Legacy Childe?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Can I ask why Eula is scaled to Foul Legacy Childe?

I thought she was only scaled to Base Childe
Off of Jean and Jean’s performance vs Ruin Guards compared to Childe

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I thought she was only scaled to Base Childe
Off of Jean and Jean’s performance vs Ruin Guards compared to Childe

Her durability mentions full powered Childe which sounds like Foul Legacy.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Her durability mentions full powered Childe which sounds like Foul Legacy.

Then I’m also curious about this
It sounds like her Dura should simply say “Childe” to avoid confusion if she doesn’t have reason to scale to Foul legacy which to my knowledge she doesn’t

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Then I’m also curious about this
It sounds like her Dura should simply say “Childe” to avoid confusion if she doesn’t have reason to scale to Foul legacy which to my knowledge she doesn’t

Yeah at best they scale to Delusion Childe who should actully be who Liyue Traveler scales to since Traveler technically never beat Foul Legacy and are shown struggling with Delusion

 

[Jackpact]

Well she is equal to Jean via Varka statement and Jean was able to casually stomp 4 ruin giard despite already holding back alot in less time then it took foul legacy Childe to dispatch 5 so i guess they could be comparable in that sense since Eula also consider what the training traveler find extremely challenging to be a breeze for her so her and subsequently Jean and maybe Diluc scaling to foul legacy childe should be okay.

Edit: even if ahe doesn't did it in less time than foul legacy childe, her voiceline imply that she actually stall the fight to try to not demlished those ruin guard and she seem to destroy them so thoroughly that none of their part was researchable unlike Childe whom ruin guard is still somewhat intact.

 

[Jackpact]

Actually creative name, what do you think about the akill scaling so far?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Well she is equal to Jean via Varka statement and Jean was able to casually stomp 4 ruin giard despite already holding back alot in less time then it took foul legacy Childe to dispatch 5 so i guess they could be comparable in that sense since Eula also consider what the training traveler find extremely challenging to be a breeze for her so her and subsequently Jean and maybe Diluc scaling to foul legacy childe should be okay.

Edit: even if ahe doesn't did it in less time than foul legacy childe, her voiceline imply that she actually stall the fight to try to not demlished those ruin guard and she seem to destroy them so thoroughly that none of their part was researchable unlike Childe whom ruin guard is still somewhat intact.

Childe (while already injured stomped 4 ruin guards in less than 10 seconds. He didn't need Foul Legacy to make quick work of them but he did for his given time limit. Traveler never expresses difficulty in Eula's training in fact she questions whether she could've gotten through the second trial and stayed calm like Traveler did. Childe wasn't trying to obliterate the guards though since his brother likes them. Paimon even comments he knocked them down in a specific way.

Actually creative name, what do you think about the akill scaling so far?

Give me a bit I'll need to look at it again.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Eula is comparable to Delusion Childe and at best is comparable to a weakened Foul Legacy Childe.

Also, we should also realize that Traveler is also stronger now than they were during the first Childe fight.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Eula is comparable to Delusion Childe and at best is comparable to a weakened Foul Legacy Childe.

Also, we should also realize that Traveler is also stronger now than they were during the first Childe fight.

True Traveler notes they've grown stronger afterwards.

Also should we put a higher on Childe's profile for his forms?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Actually creative name, what do you think about the akill scaling so far?

I'm fine with it.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

True Traveler notes they've grown stronger afterwards.

Also should we put a higher on Childe's profile for his forms?

I agree Childe should have Higher with Delusion and Foul legacy

 

[Jackpact]

Well if dragon is okay with the scaling and op is also okay with it then i guess whatever change that were agree on should be applied, can someone call an admin over to make sure?

 

[Jackpact]

Well Childe himself stated that he was stronger than when he fought the traveler (in 4 week somehow) and he took the first one by surprise and the rest via sheer speed that i will admit that no one short of full adepti scale to as even the traveler who also have grown stronger didn't even able to keep up, tho i will say that he stated that he only have a time limit of 10 second on FLT after the fight before he get completely fatigue not that his FLT gotten weaker in fact it might have became stronger due to him also being stronger, so injury have no bearing here when the transformation didn't get weaker only shorter uptime, and isn't the profile talking about the Childe that are weaker not the current one which is clearly superior aside from the FLT timeframe.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Well Childe himself stated that he was stronger than when he fought the traveler (in 4 week somehow) and he took the first one by surprise and the rest via sheer speed that i will admit that no one short of full adepti scale to as even the traveler who also have grown stronger didn't even able to keep up, tho i will say that he stated that he only have a time limit of 10 second on FLT after the fight before he get completely fatigue not that his FLT gotten weaker in fact it might have became stronger due to him also being stronger, so injury have no bearing here when the transformation didn't get weaker only shorter uptime, and isn't the profile talking about the Childe that are weaker not the current one which is clearly superior aside from the FLT timeframe.

True but that still doesn't mean Eula or Jean scale to the FLT. The fact that Tartaglia has no interest in fighting anyone in Mondstadt besides Varka seems to imply he's superior to them. Base Childe had no problem with the Ruin Guards as it stood.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Eh, I'd say he's around equal to character like Jean or Diluc. He likely only mentions Varka due to him being the overall strongest. No different than him not mentioning other characters like Beidou or the other Adepti like Xiao or Ganyu who would be able to match him. Notice how the only people he mentions wanting to fight are you, Varka and Zhongli.

Regardless, I don't think people he has or hasn' t mentioned isn' t really a reliable metric for scaling.

 

[Jackpact]

True but that still doesn't mean Eula or Jean scale to the FLT. The fact that Tartaglia has no interest in fighting anyone in Mondstadt besides Varka seems to imply he's superior to them. Base Childe had no problem with the Ruin Guards as it stood.

Well i mean you do have to keep in mind that Childe probably doesn't even know how strong they're, one is cope up in the office barely doing anything other than paper work and political stuff, one also barely step into Mondstadt and is hated by most in Mondstadt so whatever great deed she does won't get out, the only one that sound promising is Varka who is probably the oldest, most experience and the most famous among all of the knight of favonius and considering how alot of people speak highly of him ofcourse childe is going to have an itch to fight him, guys only heard rumor and some recon info about Mondstadt so i doubt he would know who is strong and who is weak since vsbattle standard wise, Noelle mop the floor with him if it wasn't for that ludicrous speed amp. Other than that yeah he is superior to ruin guard, no one is arguing that.