Cuthulu mythos 1A Questiin

[Saiyan40009]

Ask where does the high 1A in the outer gods come from? I who know or have not seen an infinite hierarchy until now.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Not a Mythos expert, nor someone that's knowledgeable on the tiering system, but the High 1-A is derived from them transcending a hierarchy of vacuua described in Hypnos, which is a 1-A hierarchy. This 1-A hierarchy in turn transcends an infinite hierarchy of dimensional spaces, each described as being "cut" from a higher dimension, and IIRC essentially being ddescribed as a shadow of the dimension they're directly cut from.

 

[Saiyan40009]

I understand but all that only seems to be beyond the baseline, we only know that hymnos knows infinite dimensions low1A and that it can travel dimensions that are beyond dimensioned space but it is still 1A even if it achieves and beyond the first door does

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Physical plane = High 1-B

Vacua/gates = 1-A

Outer realm = baseline High 1-A

 

[Saiyan40009]

well we even take that the definition high 1A is that it does not matter how many layers infinite infinite hierarchies are not enough for. reach hight 1A then I do not see why even the place inhabits empty outer gods it should be hight 1A it should only be 1A + the only thing we know is that this beyond is of dimensions. spatial and exist but I do not see infinite significance even the difference between doors is infinite

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Ask a CM expert to come here and explain

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

well we even take that the definition high 1A is that it does not matter how many layers infinite infinite hierarchies are not enough for. reach hight 1A then I do not see why even the place inhabits empty outer gods it should be hight 1A it should only be 1A + the only thing we know is that this beyond is of dimensions. spatial and exist but I do not see infinite significance even the difference between doors is infinite

The gates are the infinite 1-A structure (meaning 1-A+ basically)

Also each door trandsends the previous one

Trandsending the gates means u are trandsending that which makes u H1A

 

[Saiyan40009]

As far as I know, there is not an infinite number of doors, only an unknown number, but you could show me what they are. infinitely significant or that there is an infinite number or some scan

 

[Planck69]

Are we turning these threads into a tradition like Tier 4 Saitama? I swear they come up once a month. Anyway;

The physical universe is infinite dimensional, with each lower dimension being an infinitesimal facet of a higher dimension ad infinitum. That's High 1-B.

The Universe of Dreams or Vacua transcend space and time as well as all physical matter, being beyond all thought and entity. Based on the context, this is enough for 1-A.

These Vacua are in turn a hierarchy of higher planes, which are incomprehensible to those lower than themselves. It's size is ambiguous from what I can gather though, not infinite.

The Outer Gods exist in the Ultimate Void "where no dreams reach", in which "dreams" refers to the above hierarchy of higher planes of existence with the lowest one already being 1-A. Even the narrator of Hypnos was unable to ascend to this realm despite having the capabilities to ascend to higher planes in the Vacua. This implies that the Void is external to the the hierarchy of the Vacua and can't be reached by regular stacking of higher planes. This should be enough for High 1-A.

The 1-A hierarchy need not be infinite for High 1-A to be reached.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Could you show a scan or where to read that physical world is infinite for infinite now my problem is that I do not even see as a place that it is said that dreams come is infinitely important to jump high 1A if we take a kingdom that is more Beyond infinite dimensions most 1A would be hight 1A so with that it should be high1A since his kingdom is beyond I only ask for a scan or where a true tracendence is mentioned

 

[Planck69]

Could you clean up your grammar a bit? Makes it impossible to understand what you're saying.

Anyway, I think I mentioned the quotes in a thread about Hypnos. Lemme check.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

If there are infinite or countless layers, isn't it impossible to reach the end of the layer even if they climb several layers at a time?
How does it get high 1-A?

 

[Planck69]

I have no idea what either of you are asking, can you be a bit clearer? The Ultimate Void is external to this hierarchy and unreachable by it, that's what makes it High 1-A.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I am using an Internet translator now, so my intention may not be communicated properly.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Oh, I'm sorry. I ran the translator again, and I understood what you said.

 

[Saiyan40009]

I only ask for a scan or something that shows me that emptiness is tracendent above all, capable of being beyond everything, in reality it is not equal to a tracendence until now it does not even show me that the physical world is off-chain of infinite dimensions

 

[Ovy7]

The Mythos multiverse is infinite-dimensional:

“He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.”

It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true.

“They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.”

 

[Planck69]

IIRC, that was for a single universe in fact. Of course, the multiverse will still be High 1-B, if above baseline.

A shame that the forum move nuked some threads. I remember making a post with quotes and everything.

 

[KingPin0422]

sigh This again? Guess I have to dump a bunch of quotes again...

Universes are infinite:

In time he grew so impatient of the bleak intervals of day that he began buying drugs in order to increase his periods of sleep. Hasheesh helped a great deal, and once sent him to a part of space where form does not exist, but where glowing gases study the secrets of existence. And a violet-coloured gas told him that this part of space was outside what he had called infinity. The gas had not heard of planets and organisms before, but identified Kuranes merely as one from the infinity where matter, energy, and gravitation exist.

There is a vast, likely infinitely large multiverse:

I have said that there were things in some of Akeley’s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation.

“There are four kinds of instruments here, Wilmarth,” whispered the voice. “Four kinds—three faculties each—makes twelve pieces in all. You see there are four different sorts of beings presented in those cylinders up there. Three humans, six fungoid beings who can’t navigate space corporeally, two beings from Neptune (God! if you could see the body this type has on its own planet!), and the rest entities from the central caverns of an especially interesting dark star beyond the galaxy. In the principal outpost inside Round Hill you’ll now and then find more cylinders and machines—cylinders of extra-cosmic brains with different senses from any we know—allies and explorers from the uttermost Outside—and special machines for giving them impressions and expression in the several ways suited at once to them and to the comprehensions of different types of listeners. Round Hill, like most of the beings’ main outposts all through the various universes, is a very cosmopolitan place! Of course, only the more common types have been lent to me for experiment.

There are an infinite number of dimensions throughout the multiverse, each one being an infinitesimal cross-section of the next dimension up:

[Randolph Carter] was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve [Carter's] understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.

Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space. It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true.

All of the above is still within the realm of space and time. There exists an even more fundamental world which goes beyond space-time:

Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men.

The waking world emerged from this deeper universe:

The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester’s whim. Men of learning suspect it little, and ignore it mostly.

While exploring the realms beyond space and time in their dreams, the protagonist knows that their experiences cannot be translated into human language because they consist of sensations beyond the purview of the human body:

Among the agonies of these after days is that chief of torments—inarticulateness. What I learned and saw in those hours of impious exploration can never be told—for want of symbols or suggestions in any language. I say this because from first to last our discoveries partook only of the nature of sensations; sensations correlated with no impression which the nervous system of normal humanity is capable of receiving. They were sensations, yet within them lay unbelievable elements of time and space—things which at bottom possess no distinct and definite existence.

To further illustrate the irrelevance of dimensionality at this point, the protagonist uses two different words with opposite meanings to describe what they felt. Also, with each level of transcendence, our two protagonists become increasingly detached from normal reality as they breach barriers that take the form of thick clumps of mass:

Human utterance can best convey the general character of our experiences by calling them plungings or soarings; for in every period of revelation some part of our minds broke boldly away from all that is real and present, rushing aërially along shocking, unlighted, and fear-haunted abysses, and occasionally tearing through certain well-marked and typical obstacles describable only as viscous, uncouth clouds or vapours.

The protagonist reaffirms that time is meaningless at this level, citing their observation that neither they nor their friend age at any rate:

Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion. I know only that there must have been something very singular involved, since we came at length to marvel why we did not grow old.

One night, our protagonists are hurled through "limitless vacua" and breach the barriers between each one with ease, and as they rapidly break through said barriers to greater and greater worlds, they experience a gradually heightening perception of infinity:

There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known. My friend was vastly in advance as we plunged into this awesome ocean of virgin aether, and I could see the sinister exultation on his floating, luminous, too youthful memory-face.

Eventually, though, the protagonist is stopped short of the endpoint by an obstacle which is "incalculably denser" than the previous ones:

Suddenly that face became dim and quickly disappeared, and in a brief space I found myself projected against an obstacle which I could not penetrate. It was like the others, yet incalculably denser; a sticky, clammy mass, if such terms can be applied to analogous qualities in a non-material sphere.

Hypnos, on the other hand, passed through it, but what he sees beyond drives him permanently mad:

I had, I felt, been halted by a barrier which my friend and leader had successfully passed. Struggling anew, I came to the end of the drug-dream and opened my physical eyes to the tower studio in whose opposite corner reclined the pallid and still unconscious form of my fellow-dreamer, weirdly haggard and wildly beautiful as the moon shed gold-green light on his marble features. Then, after a short interval, the form in the corner stirred; and may pitying heaven keep from my sight and sound another thing like that which took place before me. I cannot tell you how he shrieked, or what vistas of unvisitable hells gleamed for a second in black eyes crazed with fright. I can only say that I fainted, and did not stir till he himself recovered and shook me in his phrensy for someone to keep away the horror and desolation.

It is heavily implied that what Hypnos saw was the Outer Void, as the language used in this next quote is very similar to what is used for the Outer Gods:

The tension of my vigil became oppressive, and a wild train of trivial impressions and associations thronged through my almost unhinged mind. I heard a clock strike somewhere—not ours, for that was not a striking clock—and my morbid fancy found in this a new starting-point for idle wanderings. Clocks—time—space—infinity—and then my fancy reverted to the local as I reflected that even now, beyond the roof and the fog and the rain and the atmosphere, Corona Borealis was rising in the northeast. Corona Borealis, which my friend had appeared to dread, and whose scintillant semicircle of stars must even now be glowing unseen through the measureless abysses of aether. All at once my feverishly sensitive ears seemed to detect a new and wholly distinct component in the soft medley of drug-magnified sounds—a low and damnably insistent whine from very far away; droning, clamouring, mocking, calling, from the northeast.

The Outer Void is an abyss where no dreams reach, meaning it is inaccessible and unfathomable even to voids which are themselves so vast and transcendent as to already present themselves as limitless to the perspective of mere humans:

There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep.

Only to taunt had Nyarlathotep marked out the way to safety and the marvellous sunset city; only to mock had that black messenger revealed the secret of those truant gods whose steps he could so easily lead back at will. For madness and the void’s wild vengeance are Nyarlathotep’s only gifts to the presumptuous; and frantick though the rider strove to turn his disgusting steed, that leering, tittering shantak coursed on impetuous and relentless, flapping its great slippery wings in malignant joy, and headed for those unhallowed pits whither no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion where bubbles and blasphemes at infinity’s centre the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud.

Finally, it is stated to be beyond the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos (refer to the last two sentences and maybe the second half of the second sentence for context:

There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos. Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos.

This is all without getting into the tier 0 stuff, but in any case, I hope that everything I just said makes sense to the OP.

 

[Saiyan40009]

everything fine with the 1A I accept it my problem is with the high 1A that I do not see that it shows me that there is a completely tracendent difference especially the last void when literally hymnos came in if I was horrified and then murdered when if it were completely tracendent a being infinitely inferior hymnos could approach even I doubt when flute players inhabit the outer void or even when humans arrived void

 

[Planck69]

1. Hypnos ascended to that realm with his power and we see another character with the ability to climb to higher planes of existence fail to do so. That's a textbook show of how the Outer Void is inaccessible to the lower hierarchy of existence. Hypnos scales to the same plane as the Outer Gods, he's just a lot weaker.

2. The flute players are Outer Gods so I have no idea what you mean here.

3. You can exist in a higher plane without being able to significantly affect it, as was the case with those humans.