Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[TheShieldToronto76]

Like I said, I don't see why we can apply this when this is the only immeasurable feat in the games and Super Sonic has repeatedly struggled to come close to this speed in every other instance.

The staff already has issues with it, many people off-site do, and it's the only feat that supports it to my knowledge. We've called stuff with way more evidence outliers and deemed them unfit to use as a rating so I don't see why this is any different especially given consistent anti-feats from literally every other appearance. Unless there's more? If it's some Base Sonic feat I don't think I have to explain why it's clearly not usable.

Switching between characters as a support for his attacks "transcending time" in a boss fight where game mechanics are at play seems kinda like reaching to me, but like, whatever.

That's all I can really say about this.

I agree!

 

[MysticMania]

I agree with user. We know they must be avoiding the attacks from all points in time. Unless I'm misunderstanding, how would that not fit the description of immeasurable speed?

 

[Duedate8898]

I agree with user. We know they must be avoiding the attacks from all points in time. Unless I'm misunderstanding, how would that not fit the description of immeasurable speed?

Because immeasurable speed only allows you to dodge after being hit, it's never communicated that they were struck in the gameplay then dodged in any form or shape. So the attacks aren't really properly depicted as omnipresent throughout all of time.

 

[MysticMania]

It may sound dumb of me to ask, but, why would immeasurable speed only allow you to dodge after being hit? Also, if they're dodging something that's already hit them, thus making themselves "unhit", so to speak, then there wouldn't need to be any indication that they've been hit, since they've also dodged the same attack. You wouldn't need to convey them being hit by something they dodged, even if it's in a different time.

TL;DR: There'd be no need for the game to convey the characters getting hit by something if they can actually dodge that something regardless.

 

[Duedate8898]

It may sound dumb of me to ask, but, why would immeasurable speed only allow you to dodge after being hit? Also, if they're dodging something that's already hit them, thus making themselves "unhit", so to speak, then there wouldn't need to be any indication that they've been hit, since they've also dodged the same attack. You wouldn't need to convey them being hit by something they dodged, even if it's in a different time.

TL;DR: There'd be no need for the game to convey the characters getting hit by something if they can actually dodge that something regardless.

Because Immeasurable speed doesn't let you move your past yourself. There would still be an indication that they got hit and then move to avoid it. Especially since you're playing from their perspective. But there is no sign of that ever in the game. Without it, immeasurable speed has no support.

 

[MysticMania]

But if they avoid it, as you can do to all attacks Solaris sends out while playing, why would there need to be an indicator? That's also assuming, if I'm understanding correctly, that the developers even considered how fast you'd need to be to pull off this feat. I'm willing to bet they thought "hey this is cool and i need to eat tonight", so they wrote whatever they were told.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Following.

 

[Duedate8898]

But if they avoid it, as you can do to all attacks Solaris sends out while playing, why would there need to be an indicator? That's also assuming, if I'm understanding correctly, that the developers even considered how fast you'd need to be to pull off this feat. I'm willing to bet they thought "hey this is cool and i need to eat tonight", so they wrote whatever they were told.

Without indication, we have no visual proof of the hedgehogs being immeasurable. All them dodging without ever showing any signs of being hit does is indicate that the attacks themselves are not omnipresent throughout all of time. And if the developers didn't think of how fast you need to be to dodge something temporally omnipresent, maybe they didn't treat the attacks as temporally omnipresent either. Instead, they just programmed the game so that the models swapped out in place of one another with a press of a button, while never changing anything else due to never thinking about it.

 

[MysticMania]

How would the attacks coming from a temporally omnipresent being not also be as such, though? ( Especially for the beams attached directly to Solaris' body in Phase 2. )

 

[Duedate8898]

Maybe the beams aren't attached in the first place, but more importantly, because the way they're shown to act and be interacted with doesn't fully support the attacks existing across all points in time.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to basically just say "nuh uh", but, I do believe the beams are attached. Regardless, though, I still don't see why Solaris' attacks wouldn't be the same as Solaris.

 

[Duedate8898]

Because they're directly contradicted by how the hedgehogs interact with them.

 

[MysticMania]

In what ways, if you don't mind me asking? Like I said, if they're dodging the attacks, then there's no need to show them being hit by said attacks at all.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

As of now, I think I'm disagreeing with the immeasurable rating FRA.

 

[Duedate8898]

In what ways, if you don't mind me asking? Like I said, if they're dodging the attacks, then there's no need to show them being hit by said attacks at all.

I've said this before:
If the attack is omnipresent throughout time then just moving out of the way doesn't stop you from being hit due to you having been there at some point in time. This is not the type of attack that you can dodge.

 

[MysticMania]

Then maybe I'm just not understanding but no, you should be able to dodge it with immeasurable speed. Even if you did get hit, you'd then somehow dodge that same attack. If the dodging of the struck attack happens after it's struck, then as all professionals in this industry say, it's now unstrucken, which then means there's no reason to show or imply the hit in the first place.

 

[AKM sama]

I think Duedate's recent points make sense. As for assuming that he dodged after getting struck and that's why it's not shown, that's a weird assumption to make and even if it is not shown, it should be supported by something else like a statement or something for that assumption to be based on something.

 

[JJSliderman]

There is also the whole "hedgehogs moving through time to hit Solaris to begin with"

 

[MysticMania]

If you don't mind me asking, why do you find the idea of it not being shown as weird?

There's also the matter of Sonic moving so fast he can hit Solaris in the exact same spot numerous times, repeatedly, despite the fact that Solaris should certainly have more than enough time to react to him. Being blunt, I genuinely just now remembered this was a thing. ( Also, this is slightly random, but I've hard Sonic has type-1 acausality? Would that affect this in any way at all? )

 

[Causalist]

Without indication, we have no visual proof of the hedgehogs being immeasurable. All them dodging without ever showing any signs of being hit does is indicate that the attacks themselves are not omnipresent throughout all of time. And if the developers didn't think of how fast you need to be to dodge something temporally omnipresent, maybe they didn't treat the attacks as temporally omnipresent either. Instead, they just programmed the game so that the models swapped out in place of one another with a press of a button, while never changing anything else due to never thinking about it.

Why would a being with temporal omnipresence limit himself to using attacks that don't share that trait?

 

[Causalist]

A common issue with the arguments I see against immeasurable is that they overthink the specific logistics of a game that clearly never cared about that, while underthinking about WHY Solaris would hold back this much. Even if Solaris had below average animalistic intelligence, he would still use his physiology to his advantage against the hedgehogs

 

[Causalist]

Sonic 06 is poorly written, so we have to trust what we see rather than what scientifically makes sense. If the writers actually cared about science, they would have written a better time travel story. Here's what we see:

-Mephiles and Iblis fuse together using the chaos emeralds, ganing the power to destroy every timeline and a superdimensional physiology that allows him to exist in every point in time at once
-The hedgehogs use the same emeralds to go Super
-They fly to different points in time to fight Solaris (at least that's what the dialogue HEAVILY implies)
-They break apart his armor and his first form's head while dodging his attacks and hitting him faster than he can react.
-Solaris' health bar is at the same level of progress regardless of which point in time the hedgehogs are seeing him from. The same goes for the damage seen on his exoskeleton and the position of Solaris' attacks

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I'm still against removing Immeasurable speed FRA

 

[MysticMania]

I just now saw these three messages, due to them being on a new page. But yes, I agree with Pepto, as well as Ottavio.

 

[Theuser789]

Without indication, we have no visual proof of the hedgehogs being immeasurable. All them dodging without ever showing any signs of being hit does is indicate that the attacks themselves are not omnipresent throughout all of time. And if the developers didn't think of how fast you need to be to dodge something temporally omnipresent, maybe they didn't treat the attacks as temporally omnipresent either. Instead, they just programmed the game so that the models swapped out in place of one another with a press of a button, while never changing anything else due to never thinking about it.

The authors didn't think about powerscaling, just like 90% of authors in general, however that isn't a counter argument, author's intent usually doesn't matter otherwise we wouldn't even have this website due to the fact authors could care less about powerscaling, when you have authors who do care you get shit like Suggsverse

Honestly this entire discussion is trying to remove abilities that we know Solaris has, that is essential to the plot, that is character motivation because it breaks the perception "of how It should go", aka your headcanon, and that just can't happen

This is why this thread hasn't reached a conclusion, we can't remove things essential to the narrative just because it doesn't go as you THINK you should, VSBW staff are not WoG in the series, we can't remove plot details because it's "against standards", removing this would definitvely make profiles innacurate

Honestly the last point might just be type 2 acasuality, since immesurable speed doesn't go as how you think it should go and thus this might be the only possibilty that doesn't remove the narrative, since Sega already ret-con that Classic is Sonic from "another dimension" in Forces, thus they fighting together wouldn't necessaraly go against it and we don't remove objective abilities a character has

 

[Greenshifter]

I still don't see how acausality type 2 helps but it's still better than nothing since that would give the wrong impression ala Goku can blitz Solaris now.

 

[MysticMania]

Forces didn't retcon Generations though, so, I must disagree with type 2 acausality. Sonic still very clearly has a younger, past self. ( You could very easily say "another world"/"another dimension" means a separate timeline, one caused by Generations, and that'd still debunk type 2 for Sonic. Even then, lore is so inconsistent in this franchise, the moon being a nice example, that it's also honestly easy to write it off as them just not knowing how to keep consistency. )

 

[Theuser789]

Forces didn't retcon Generations though, so, I must disagree with type 2 acausality. Sonic still very clearly has a younger, past self. ( You could very easily say "another world"/"another dimension" means a separate timeline, one caused by Generations, and that'd still debunk type 2 for Sonic. Even then, lore is so inconsistent in this franchise, the moon being a nice example, that it's also honestly easy to write it off as them just not knowing how to keep consistency. )

Generations was very clearly retcon because otherwise they would just say "Past Sonic", nothing indicates "another dimension" is another timeline, you are just assuming it's correct for it's own sake

(Goddamit I am trying to find a solution here, If staff members would rather take canon abilities than immesurable then it isn't happening)

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to sound rude, but Generations as a whole just doesn't work with Classic and Modern being two unrelated beings. It only works if they're the same guy, and Generations makes clear that it is. We're also talking about 2010s Sonic writing. I wouldn't expect them, again, to maintain continuity and say, "hey, younger me", even if that's correct. The amount of errors and OOC moments in that era of Sonic games are of many.

 

[Greenshifter]

There is no solution. I might create a general thread for this though since there seems to be no other way to get out of this impasse and it could be useful for another verse I'm gonna revise. When I'll find the time to do that though is another matter entirely.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't feel we can just say, "oh well", and end it, though. I'm not expecting everyone to agree of course, but that would just lead us going into circles unless one side decides to end it, if not.

 

[Theuser789]

And dead fixing on immesurable is not the way Mania, the entire fanbase complained about the Forces retcon when it came out, but it doesn't change the fact it was retconned, and that it's better than to take canon abilities from a character

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean tbf I can probably argue Sonic doesn’t have acausality type 2 even with the retcon.

He should have probably remembered the events of 06 for instance if he did.

 

[MysticMania]

There's still no indication that Generations itself being time-based has been retconned. As I said, not only would the entire game and plot just not work as a whole if it wasn't, but using "dimension" interchangeably with timeline is something they very easily could've done. ( Similar to how many will use infinite power, when they really mean unlimited power. It sounds picky, but those aren't the same. ) Have we been directly told that Forces retconned Generations, or, are we basing it solely off of the same cutscene where Tails prays for his life in front of the weakest version of a boss he had already beaten in the past?

 

[Theuser789]

I mean tbf I can probably argue Sonic doesn’t have acausality type 2 even with the retcon.

He should have probably remembered the events of 06 for instance if he did.

But he does remember 06, there's even a talk between him and Silver about it in TSR

 

[Theuser789]

There's still no indication that Generations itself being time-based has been retconned. As I said, not only would the entire game and plot just not work as a whole if it wasn't, but using "dimension" interchangeably with timeline is something they very easily could've done. ( Similar to how many will use infinite power, when they really mean unlimited power. It sounds picky, but those aren't the same. ) Have we been directly told that Forces retconned Generations, or, are we basing it solely off of the same cutscene where Tails prays for his life in front of the weakest version of a boss he had already beaten in the past?

I am trying to offer a solution, but if you want the downgrade so badly, but if you want to be insistent on your interpretation than die with it, your argument is just based around already assuming you are correct, a retcon means what was previously said doesn't apply anymore, it ruins the plot but so does any 2010 plot in the actual lore of the series, Sonic is refered to always being from another dimension, if it was a split timeline it would have been mentioned, but Tails and Eggman act as if Sonic was always from another dimension

But you can die on the hill that it's immesurable while the staff remove canon abilities and downgrade him

 

[Greenshifter]

But he does remember 06, there's even a talk between him and Silver about it in TSR

Oh wow, that's actually impressive. I thought Shadow was the only one.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

There is also the whole "hedgehogs moving through time to hit Solaris to begin with"

Was that something in the game? I don't remember.

 

[JJSliderman]

If Solaris was existing across all of time, then the hedgehogs and their attacks would also have to reach across time to hit him.

 

[Greenshifter]

If Solaris was existing across all of time, then the hedgehogs and their attacks would also have to reach across time to hit him.

This is what DDM is arguing. Yet this doesn't relate to speed.