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Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

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Then shouldn't it still be Immeasurable?

The hedgehogs still had to cross at least some parts of time to fight Solaris and hit him, and there's no evidence of the portals that normally accompany any type of specific time travel based ability, either in this game or in other Sonic titles.
 
I still think it should be immesurable, it's just the staff are deadset, let's see if Greenshifter has anything to say
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The fact that he still says they can be dodged with finite speed is still alone evidence against Immeasurable speed.
Click to expand...
How so, if you don't mind me asking? Solaris should still be temporally omnipresent, existing in all of time, all at once. I mean nothing against him at all, but his word isn't law, so I don't see how that alone would go against immeasurable speed. If immeasurable speed isn't solid, then it should be explained how, right? Instead of saying, "it isn't", and then ending the discussion.
 
Solaris being Temporal omnipresent is a yes, but that's just Nigh-Omnipresent and not Immeasurable by standard wiki protocol definition. The next argument is that it shouldn't be commonly assumed that Omnipresence or Nigh-Omnipresence grants Immeasurable combat speed or reactions by default. And if he has no combat speed or Immeasurable feats to begin with, then it cannot scale to anyone.

And yes, the wiki's rules have been elaborated to be more strict when applying Immeasurable speed; as there's quite a few things that are commonly used to push for Immeasurable speeds while lacking the specific details or qualifications.
 
Okay so, it's agreed Solaris is temporally omnipresent, and exists across all of time simultaneously.

But it's not agreed that the Hedgehogs had to move across time themselves in order to hit him and "destroy him all at once".
 
^^Then if you don't mind me asking, how did they avoid Solaris' attacks if said attacks were happening all at once, in every point of time?
 
Because it was agreed that attacks that linear projectiles omnipresent across time and not space is while an arbitrarily vague concept; is something that can be dodged by characters with finite speed. Because the fact that it lacks spatial omnipresence means it's not actually attacking everywhere at once; it's always striking all time periods of a specific point in space, and otherwise non existent on every other spatial period is how a temporal omnipresent, finite spaced projectile works. And there's not real concrete details on how fast it moves muzzle velocity wise. But it can still be aim dodged by characters with finite reactions or even dodged by characters with finite speed. And the whole, "Past and future versions would still be hit since they were in that position moments ago or moments after" also just seems iffy. The past self or future self aren't actively reacting to it and just appear to not be there at all. And it doesn't appear assumed that present self just teleported to that past self and actively moved all their time periods selves from that point in space simultaneously.

I'm not sure how that can be interpreted, but it just appears the "Infinite number of past or future selfs" simply weren't there either. I find it weird for there to just be one Sonic, Shadow, or Silver respectively Immeasurably faster than an infinite number of their past or future selfs being shielded by them. It still sounds less assumptive to either say it's just one Sonic who's reacting to the projectiles. Even saying there's an infinite number of past and future Hedgehogs fighting simultaneously is too assumptive. Honestly, everything about this fight is too assumptive, but the conclusion is calling something Immeasurable is always way more assumptive than saying it's not Immeasurable.

Anyway, when it comes to an attack with questionable temporal omnipresence being dodged by a character with questionable Immeasurable speed; it's far less assumptive to assume the attack is not actually temporal omnipresent then it does to assume the dodger has Immeasurable speed if it has to be one or the other with no in between.

Conclusions are this
  • Solaris being Nigh-Omnipresent is good to go
    • Striking the core is temporal AoE; not quite Immeasurable attack speed evidence
  • Solaris having attacks with Nigh Omnipresent AoE, questionable but possible
    • But even if it does, evading it still isn't quite evidence of Immeasurable speed for both other reasons but more so just lack of details that aren't just assumptions
    • And if it really isn't that just makes Immeasurable speed even more dubious.
 
Idk what the point about past and future hedgehogs is about, it's just the hedgehogs moving through time to hit Solaris at all points in time. It's shown with Shadow earlier in the game that he can exist in the same time period as his past self, anyway.

Temporal AOE doesn't really make sense, since if Sonic can attack through time to hit Solaris then he would have Immeasurable attack speed, and since he mainly focuses on boosting into enemies to attack it seems like he would also have Immeasurable reactions by default.
 
Traveling through time isn't Immeasurable by default, it's just Time Travel; existing in the same period as his past self okay but not quite Immeasurable.

Attacking through time isn't Immeasurable, it's just temporal AoE. Attacking while traveling through time simultaneously isn't Immeasurable either. I just means he can attack enemies who exist across time. Kratos, Samus Aran, Squall, and several others have similar statements to strike enemies with temporal omnipresence but none of them are Immeasurable.
 
I agree traveling through time isn't Immeasurable by itself but
Every time Sonic characters time travel with specific time travel abilities, it's almost always accompanied by a portal of some kind.
Even in the game itself.
But in the Solaris fight there are no portals, so they seemingly aren't using Chaos Control to time travel. The only other option is speed-based.
And Sonic specifically attacking would be immeasurable because he's literally boosting and physically moving his body to ram into Solaris.
 
Traveling back in time through sheer speed is simply FTL, physically boosting an ramming into someone with temporal omnipresence still isn't Immeasurable attack speed; it's just the stuff I keep repeating. Temporal AoE upon impact; ramming into a timeline isn't Immeasurable for similar reasons.
 
How is it AoE though.
Sonic is boosting forward in a straight line.

That said what are the new Immeasurable standards.
 
A blast can be fired in a strait line, but the explosion effects on a temporal level; a punch or super fast tackle can also do the same thing.
 
Solaris' attacks aren't being shot in just one direction though. We know the Hedgehogs aren't all facing towards Solaris in the same way, yet when you switch to, say, Shadow from Sonic, the same meteors that came at you as Sonic can hit you as Shadow, despite being in a different position and time altogether. How would Sonic dodge something that's hitting him at every moment in time?
 
Theuser789 said:
I still think it should be immesurable, it's just the staff are deadset, let's see if Greenshifter has anything to say
Click to expand...
I mean. Still waiting for someone to address my Solaris’ consciousness argument and like actually go in-depth for the last 4 pages so...

What Shadow said is probably another interpretation on how one could dodge it with immeasurable speed.
 
Honestly I really dislike this mentality of "everything is vague so we should assume the lowest possible interpretation", low is not always right and I still stand that removing it is going to cause confusion and innacuracy, as seen with people asking of how It isn't immesurable and not getting any clear answers
 
Yeah like this thread’s reasoning of you can dodge temporal omnipresent attacks with finite speed literally opens up several (low) multiversal characters straight up blitzing Solaris if they have the necessary range even if they have nothing but MFTL+ speed, AP and universal+ range on their attacks. Despite Solaris literally seeing all of time at once.
 
Question:

I have not be watching this thread, but take glances at it to read about immeasurable speed stuff. I am also not a sonic fan, and not knowledgable on the verse. Anyways I read that solaris is only temporarily omnipresent without space.

Wouldn't that make Solaris only 1-Dimensional?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Question:

I have not be watching this thread, but take glances at it to read about immeasurable speed stuff. I am also not a sonic fan, and not knowledgable on the verse. Anyways I read that solaris is only temporarily omnipresent without space.

Wouldn't that make Solaris only 1-Dimensional?
Click to expand...
No. Unless you truly believe that he's a point that is streched across all time

Solaris is 4D by being temporally omnipresent, but he isn't omnipresent in the 3 spatial axes, only in the temporal axis
 
ShrekAnakin said:
Btw, what's the plan on Solaris's Type 3 Acausality? Is that staying or leaving his profile?
Click to expand...
That has nothing to do with speed my dude and is irrelevant to the topic.

Solaris type 3 is staying via virtue of having temporal omnipresence and needing to be defeated at all points in time in order to be permanently killed which was already agreed upon ages ago and fits in with the acausality standards.

Don't derail!
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No. Unless you truly believe that he's a point that is streched across all time

Solaris is 4D by being temporally omnipresent, but he isn't omnipresent in the 3 spatial axes, only in the temporal axis
Click to expand...
According to the wiki from what reliable members and Ultima have said in the past. (Assuming it still applies) Time as an Axis by itself is only 1D. It's not 4D unless you include the 3D plus the 1-dimensional Axis of time.

So therefore by arguing he's only temporally omnipresent (Axis of time only, NO SPACE INVOLVED) your arguing he's only 1-Dimensiomal... (This is for those against it)

I'm not knowledgable on Sonic-verse, but this just my inference combining all the information I seem and know. Dimensions in fiction is weird to lol.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
According to the wiki from what reliable members and Ultima have said in the past. (Assuming it still applies) Time as an Axis by itself is only 1D. It's not 4D unless you include the 3D plus the 1-dimensional Axis of time.

So therefore by arguing he's only temporally omnipresent (Axis of time only, NO SPACE INVOLVED) your arguing he's only 1-Dimensiomal... (This is for those against it)

I'm not knowledgable on Sonic-verse, but this just my inference combining all the information I seem and know. Dimensions in fiction is weird to lol.
Click to expand...
Yes I know time is only 1 axis. A space-time continuum is 3+1 dimensional for that reason.
And I specifically said the 3 spatial axes are included

You're twisting my words. I NEVER said he only exists across time, but that his dimensions aren't infinite in the 3 spatial axes.
You know what "Omnipresent" means right? It means a being that exists everywhere all at once. Solaris being temporally omnipresent means he exists across all of time at once
 
Oh, I only brought up the Acausality stuff since I thought it was relavent to the temporal omnipresence stuff. Sorry for accidental derail!
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes I know time is only 1 axis. A space-time continuum is 3+1 dimensional for that reason.
And I specifically said the 3 spatial axes are included

You're twisting my words. I NEVER said he only exists across time, but that his dimensions aren't infinite in the 3 spatial axes.
You know what "Omnipresent" means right? It means a being that exists everywhere all at once. Solaris being temporally omnipresent means he exists across all of time at once
Click to expand...
I didn't twist your words. It's just were misunderstanding each other.

I'm quoting what I read from staff comments. I saw comments saying Solaris was only 1 Axis with space not included. Which just sounds weird to me because from what I'm reading. Solaris also not being apart of 3D space is part of the reason why he isn't being accepted as immeasurable speed. Because of this reason. Him being only 1 Axis means he's only 1-D.. which is....you know strange, weird, random lol

Edit: but I'm also not a big smart ssooo lol I could have been misunderstanding other comments too.
 
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I agree. Solaris should be temporally omnipresent, and I personally don't see any way he could be listed as otherwise. With that in mind, that means the Hedgehogs need a way to dodge his attacks, and no form of acausality seems to be enough. They aren't just immune to damage, so, that leads it to being a speed feat, right? If there's a finite speed that can dodge temporally omnipresent attacks, then, it should be calced, and explained, I feel, before this thread were to close. If there isn't, then we must determine what speed, between infinite and immeasurable, they need to be given in order to explain this feat. ( Because it is a feat. )
 
JJSliderman said:
Apparently traveling through time with speed is being downgraded to just FTL.
Click to expand...
Nah it’s already been downgraded, check the notes page. This would also probably explain why people think moving through the past present and future simultaneously is FTL. I don’t necessarily blame them but they’re wrong :T
 
If you don't mind me asking, what impact does time traveling have on immeasurable forms, at all? I'm not saying it doesn't, or anything, I just don't yet understand why that'd have any impact on them dodging and hitting Solaris.
 
To hit Solaris they need to travel through time to attack his weak point at all points in time, and it's done with speed.
With these revisions seemingly that's not Immeasurable anymore unless it's "casual".
 
The dodging I guess was deemed as these attacks being temporally and not spatially omnipresent, meaning that they could be dodging by moving elsewhere in space.
 
Solaris is by default above 1-dimensional because he can destroy universes, and is described as a super-dimensional life form.

So, no, not 1-dimensional.
 
JJSliderman said:
Solaris is by default above 1-dimensional because he can destroy universes, and is described as a super-dimensional life form.

So, no, not 1-dimensional.
Click to expand...
My point is him being only "Temporally" Omnipresent without space means he is only 1-D which is wrong.. Obviously right?

being Temporal without space is 1D because what makes a space time continuum is the 3 dimensions then the 1 dimension of time = 4D

Makes no sense right?

He would have to be Omnipresent on a 3 + 1 D scale not the 1 dimension of time omnipresent


Edit: The argument i have seen/read (Granted i have not read the entire thread) is Solaris being only temporally omnipresent. Omnipresent in only the 1 dimension of time.


This creates a problem doesn't it?
 
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